Why is the food STILL better in China?
October 20, 2015 6:30 AM Subscribe
I live in Queens NY and regularly get to dine at all sorts of really tasty, authentic (as much as anything can be, but that's another conversation) ethnic restaurants, especially Chinese food. My girlfriend's family is from China, and while they certainly enjoy these places, they will always insist that the food is better in China... This is something everyone universally agreed with.
I'm not questioning their taste buds, what I'm wondering is WHY. Places like NY, LA, and others have massive ethnic populations. This question could wel be about any highly dense concentration of any ethnic community... Why is the food still better back home?
I've heard a lot of reasons given, but none are satisfying.
- the ingredients are hard to get. Really? If this were the case, importers could make a killing supplying authentic ingredients. And my gf's dad works for a food distributor and you can get pretty much anything you need.
- Americans don't have the taste for it. Well, that's why I'm focusing on cities with large ethnic communities... It wouldn't have to be for Americans, it can just serve that community (as many of these restaurants already do)
- not enough foot traffic. Have you BEEN to flushing?! Plus, if people could get China-quality anything I'm pretty sure they'd be swamped with eager Chinese families.
- the chefs don't want to move. This one is.. Actually somewhat plausible. But given many people pay upwards of 70k for a coyote to bring them here, you'd imagine an enterprising restauranteur would help bring in some highly qualified chefs. But even beyond that, I find it hard to believe that the chefs in the Chinese communities here can't go to China, learn the techniques, and make it to the taste.
- money. Low end restaurants focus on volume, high end restaurants inevitably try to muck with the flavors. Maybe?
I dunno. It just seems weird to me! Curious if anyone has any insight. It just seems weird that there's so many dishes that are great here, but so much better in China, or whatever country of origin.
As an endnote I realize that notions of authenticity in cuisine are fraught, especially given that cuisine is always changing and borrowing... But really I just mean why is dish ___ universally considered better in China.
Then again: why can't you get a good cheesesteak outside of philly?
I'm not questioning their taste buds, what I'm wondering is WHY. Places like NY, LA, and others have massive ethnic populations. This question could wel be about any highly dense concentration of any ethnic community... Why is the food still better back home?
I've heard a lot of reasons given, but none are satisfying.
- the ingredients are hard to get. Really? If this were the case, importers could make a killing supplying authentic ingredients. And my gf's dad works for a food distributor and you can get pretty much anything you need.
- Americans don't have the taste for it. Well, that's why I'm focusing on cities with large ethnic communities... It wouldn't have to be for Americans, it can just serve that community (as many of these restaurants already do)
- not enough foot traffic. Have you BEEN to flushing?! Plus, if people could get China-quality anything I'm pretty sure they'd be swamped with eager Chinese families.
- the chefs don't want to move. This one is.. Actually somewhat plausible. But given many people pay upwards of 70k for a coyote to bring them here, you'd imagine an enterprising restauranteur would help bring in some highly qualified chefs. But even beyond that, I find it hard to believe that the chefs in the Chinese communities here can't go to China, learn the techniques, and make it to the taste.
- money. Low end restaurants focus on volume, high end restaurants inevitably try to muck with the flavors. Maybe?
I dunno. It just seems weird to me! Curious if anyone has any insight. It just seems weird that there's so many dishes that are great here, but so much better in China, or whatever country of origin.
As an endnote I realize that notions of authenticity in cuisine are fraught, especially given that cuisine is always changing and borrowing... But really I just mean why is dish ___ universally considered better in China.
Then again: why can't you get a good cheesesteak outside of philly?
All the analysis is fine, but isn't some of this just a variation on "nobody makes it like mom" rhetoric? I mean there are meals I ate all the time as a kid that I know are objectively lower quality than the equivalent meal at a high-end restaurant but I will go to my grave defending mom's cooking as the best because it's familiar, it's invested with emotional weight from my youth, it's what I get when I go home. By the same logic, I have a soft spot for brands that were local to where I grew up not because they're necessarily objectively better but because they were what I grew up on. This is common.
posted by Wretch729 at 6:59 AM on October 20, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 6:59 AM on October 20, 2015 [16 favorites]
the ingredients are hard to get. Really? If this were the case, importers could make a killing supplying authentic ingredients.
Right off the bat you're wrong - reasons why this might not be happening:
- The good ingredients don't travel well, unless you go to extreme lengths that do not make sense except in the extreme high end of the dining market
- The good ingredients actually don't taste that good to the majority of US customers; more authenticity would hurt business.
- The good ingredients cannot be bought in a form that is legal for import (e.g. are not standardized, do not undergo enough testing etc)
Also with all due respect to your girlfriend's family - I'm Greek and have eaten in several Greek restaurants in the company of foreigners abroad: I was required by law to roll my eyes and explain how this is but a poor substitute for the real thing back home.
posted by Dr Dracator at 7:02 AM on October 20, 2015 [22 favorites]
Right off the bat you're wrong - reasons why this might not be happening:
- The good ingredients don't travel well, unless you go to extreme lengths that do not make sense except in the extreme high end of the dining market
- The good ingredients actually don't taste that good to the majority of US customers; more authenticity would hurt business.
- The good ingredients cannot be bought in a form that is legal for import (e.g. are not standardized, do not undergo enough testing etc)
Also with all due respect to your girlfriend's family - I'm Greek and have eaten in several Greek restaurants in the company of foreigners abroad: I was required by law to roll my eyes and explain how this is but a poor substitute for the real thing back home.
posted by Dr Dracator at 7:02 AM on October 20, 2015 [22 favorites]
This is in an indirect answer that needs interpretation, but I once ate an a Chinese restaurant with people who spoke Mandarin and ordered off the "Mandarin menu". It was a completely different set of food (we ordered 15 different things to sample all we could) than anyone else would normally order. The people I was with lived in China for a decade and stated the food was 100% authentic, and these people get what they claim is 100% authentic food at any nicer Chinese sit-down (non-buffet) restaurant as long as they order in Mandarin.
So, not sure what that means. And, yes, it was much better food than if I had come in off the street and asked for "authentic food" in English. I have never had Chinese food as amazing ever since.
P.S. This was in the Midwestern United States.
posted by TinWhistle at 7:02 AM on October 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
So, not sure what that means. And, yes, it was much better food than if I had come in off the street and asked for "authentic food" in English. I have never had Chinese food as amazing ever since.
P.S. This was in the Midwestern United States.
posted by TinWhistle at 7:02 AM on October 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
There are also uncontrollable background elements that might interfere with a completely familiar "better" taste). For example, the water might taste subtly different and impart a slight difference to food. Fruits and vegetables that are "the same" really do taste different when grown in different places. Animals are raised with different kinds of feed. All these things might combine in to make subtle differences that no one has deconstructed and analyzed.
posted by flourpot at 7:02 AM on October 20, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by flourpot at 7:02 AM on October 20, 2015 [18 favorites]
One of my favourite Chinese restaurants here in the UK has what TinWhistle mentions - a different menu for Chinese customers. The dishes are totally different, with some names that sound pretty unappetising in translation. They tend to use this menu during the week, when Chinese families make up most of their business. I think it's a lot to do with a mismatch between Chinese and Western tastes in the way that the two cultures appreciate certain flavours and textures.
posted by pipeski at 7:20 AM on October 20, 2015
posted by pipeski at 7:20 AM on October 20, 2015
I live in Queens NY and regularly get to dine at all sorts of really tasty, authentic...
Define "authentic." Because most of what is on a Chinese food menu in the US is not Chinese; it is dishes created for the US market. Also the whole idea of "Chinese" is weird where food is concerned; that's like going to China and eating in a "North American" restaurant that serves gumbo, poutine and tamales.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:34 AM on October 20, 2015 [12 favorites]
Define "authentic." Because most of what is on a Chinese food menu in the US is not Chinese; it is dishes created for the US market. Also the whole idea of "Chinese" is weird where food is concerned; that's like going to China and eating in a "North American" restaurant that serves gumbo, poutine and tamales.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:34 AM on October 20, 2015 [12 favorites]
I saw the light after watching this acclaimed food documentary produced by Chinese state tv called A Bite of China. This series gives an incredible inside look at cuisine in China, in its wide diversity. You really get an appreciation how much local ingredients, artistry, know-how, and communities all come together to make food that you can't get anywhere else in the world. This is what I think Chinese people mean when they say that their food is different everywhere else in the world but China. If you think to yourself while watching this program, "Could this really be replicated elsewhere... ?", I think you find your answers pretty quickly.
posted by incolorinred at 7:45 AM on October 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by incolorinred at 7:45 AM on October 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
the ingredients are hard to get. Really? If this were the case, importers could make a killing supplying authentic ingredients. And my gf's dad works for a food distributor and you can get pretty much anything you need.
You are wrong on this. This is one of the main reasons my parents look forward to their trips to Mexico, despite living in San Diego.
Firstly, Dr. Dracator is right. Good ingredients don't travel well. Despite all the tricks of delayed ripening there is nothing like fresh fruit and vegetables which are often sensitive to climate and geography. For Mexican food, specifically, you need almost an entire industry that:
**Grows the fruits and vegetables and other varietals you need (including meat from animals raised with a local diet too). I'm thinking especially of the corn varieties in central mexico. Or vegetables like Chayote. You can't import them and if you can they are no good.
**Processors that can process them in the way you need. Again for corn this starts with the correct nixtamalization. Also, every tiny village in Mexico has a tortilleria, like an artisan bakery, where tortillas are made fresh each morning. The best Mexican restaurants in the US have to resort to making them on their own which adds complexity of course. And this goes for most sauces and other cooking elementals. This is before you can even start cooking.
**Cooking techniques. This can be exported but, even if you can surpass the other two barriers, a talented cook is rare as specialized techniques often die out quickly in a generation or so. Also proper cooking technique may be hard to come by in terms of time, space and utensils. As an example: true Michoacan style carnitas require a huge copper pot and hours of slow stirring. Good luck with that happening at your corner restaurant.
posted by vacapinta at 8:00 AM on October 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
You are wrong on this. This is one of the main reasons my parents look forward to their trips to Mexico, despite living in San Diego.
Firstly, Dr. Dracator is right. Good ingredients don't travel well. Despite all the tricks of delayed ripening there is nothing like fresh fruit and vegetables which are often sensitive to climate and geography. For Mexican food, specifically, you need almost an entire industry that:
**Grows the fruits and vegetables and other varietals you need (including meat from animals raised with a local diet too). I'm thinking especially of the corn varieties in central mexico. Or vegetables like Chayote. You can't import them and if you can they are no good.
**Processors that can process them in the way you need. Again for corn this starts with the correct nixtamalization. Also, every tiny village in Mexico has a tortilleria, like an artisan bakery, where tortillas are made fresh each morning. The best Mexican restaurants in the US have to resort to making them on their own which adds complexity of course. And this goes for most sauces and other cooking elementals. This is before you can even start cooking.
**Cooking techniques. This can be exported but, even if you can surpass the other two barriers, a talented cook is rare as specialized techniques often die out quickly in a generation or so. Also proper cooking technique may be hard to come by in terms of time, space and utensils. As an example: true Michoacan style carnitas require a huge copper pot and hours of slow stirring. Good luck with that happening at your corner restaurant.
posted by vacapinta at 8:00 AM on October 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
I once spoke with a Peruvian woman who told me the one dish she misses most is a certain fish recipe which was made using only fish from a certain river in her home village. I can see how even if you used the same breed of fish, it might be subtly different. She told me that she has never been able to replicate this dish in North America.
posted by JoannaC at 8:00 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by JoannaC at 8:00 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Annecdotally, I moved to the US from Australia to live. You couldn't pick 2 countries with more similar cultures. I still think the food tastes better "back home". Be it bread, soda, McDonalds take away. Heck I even think "our" version of Mexican food tastes better. Rose colored memory glasses & what you are used to I think play a huge role in it.
Though man I'd kill for a Balfours pie & a Farmers Union Iced Coffee.
Having said that I now live in where the fuck Indiana & the local hole in the wall Japanese & Korean Restaurants both have different menus for those in the know looking for a taste of home. They were more than happy to let us order off of it when we saw some Korean friends getting dishes off the menu but they explained in both cases we might not like it as it wouldn't be what we were used to.
posted by wwax at 8:08 AM on October 20, 2015
Though man I'd kill for a Balfours pie & a Farmers Union Iced Coffee.
Having said that I now live in where the fuck Indiana & the local hole in the wall Japanese & Korean Restaurants both have different menus for those in the know looking for a taste of home. They were more than happy to let us order off of it when we saw some Korean friends getting dishes off the menu but they explained in both cases we might not like it as it wouldn't be what we were used to.
posted by wwax at 8:08 AM on October 20, 2015
I mean the biggest reason to me is that you just don't have a dedicated population of people who care about the food the way native Chinese people would. The US has less than 4 million Chinese people in the whole country, whereas in China there's more than a billion of 'em! That population just isn't enough to support the kind of specialization and dedication required to bring all the thousands of types of different kinds of Chinese foods to the US. I'd second the recommendation to watch A Bite of China. You will be amazed at what people will do to make food just as tasty as possible. Without the audience that cares (and in fact demands that level of sophistication), what is the point? It's a whole lot easier to make slipshod Chinese-American food, if that's what sells here. In China also, labor is still cheap. A lot of the traditional food techniques are incredibly labor-intensive, but worth doing, because again, competition is really fierce. I'm not Chinese, but Indian, and I can see the same thing with Indian food. Americans like syrupy-sweet Chicken Tikka Masala, which is dead easy to make. In India, I've eaten the most incredible dal (lentils), which were stewed for over two days in butter and cream. A ton of effort, but what a result. Most Americans wouldn't be willing to pay a premium for that because they wouldn't understand what makes it special and don't have a context for understanding the labor involved. So why bother over here?
posted by peacheater at 8:13 AM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by peacheater at 8:13 AM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
I try not to answer questions where I want to begin "I don't know much about x," but: I don't know much about the restaurant industry, but I think their margins are pretty slim, right? So...
STEP 1. Add more expensive ingredients (because if importers are making a "killing," the stuff isn't cheap)
STEP 2. Subtract potential diners (by not accommodating local tastes)
STEP 3. ???
STEP 4. Less profit!
Not appealing to restaurateurs, I'm guessing.
I noticed when I was in Seoul that standard items like pajeon tasted very different and much better. In the case of pajeon, it was because they were using different kinds of flour (not wheat flour) in the batter, completely changing the texture and flavor. You can get those flours in the US, but they're premium ingredients, and you want to use them in expensive baked goods--not banchan that you give away to diners. In Taiwan I ate "Mexican" food made with weirdly sweet, dehydrated bean flakes--because again, beans are supposed to be a dirt-cheap ingredient that fills a third of the plate for next to nothing, not a rare luxury ingredient.
I also remember eating fresh lizhi (litchee) in China, which you literally can't get in the US AFAIK--they're always canned or frozen, which changes the flavor of the fruit. Lizhi are not alone; there are lots of other produce items that either can't be shipped fresh or can't really be shipped at all, because freezing them changes them too much.
posted by wintersweet at 8:14 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
STEP 1. Add more expensive ingredients (because if importers are making a "killing," the stuff isn't cheap)
STEP 2. Subtract potential diners (by not accommodating local tastes)
STEP 3. ???
STEP 4. Less profit!
Not appealing to restaurateurs, I'm guessing.
I noticed when I was in Seoul that standard items like pajeon tasted very different and much better. In the case of pajeon, it was because they were using different kinds of flour (not wheat flour) in the batter, completely changing the texture and flavor. You can get those flours in the US, but they're premium ingredients, and you want to use them in expensive baked goods--not banchan that you give away to diners. In Taiwan I ate "Mexican" food made with weirdly sweet, dehydrated bean flakes--because again, beans are supposed to be a dirt-cheap ingredient that fills a third of the plate for next to nothing, not a rare luxury ingredient.
I also remember eating fresh lizhi (litchee) in China, which you literally can't get in the US AFAIK--they're always canned or frozen, which changes the flavor of the fruit. Lizhi are not alone; there are lots of other produce items that either can't be shipped fresh or can't really be shipped at all, because freezing them changes them too much.
posted by wintersweet at 8:14 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I guess what I have noticed based on living in Shanghai and Beijing and then trying to seek out good Chinese food here in the US is this:
- regional cuisines and regional variants often don't make it over here. There aren't that many Shanghai-style or Suzhou style restaurants here at all, and Shanghai-style dishes in restaurants specializing in other cuisines tend not to be quite right.
- supply chain stuff. In Shanghai, the produce was so good and so plentiful, like nothing you get here, and there were a bunch of things that you either just can't get here at all (some mystery fruits) or can only get rarely and don't travel well (fresh lychees - so plentiful and good in season there; you'd see heaps of lychee shells by the garbage tips because people were eating them on the street all the time). Also, better tofu. I've had some really great locally made tofu at places in the US, but the baseline in Shanghai was much better.
- Smaller pool of cooks. There are just fewer people who can cook regional dishes, so the odds of hitting a really talented one are lower.
- Not so much street food/casual food. In Shanghai especially, my favorite food was pretty much baozi from the campus baozi stall, noodles from a local fried noodle specialist, soups from the soup place, Xinjiang rice and noodle dishes from the tiny Xinjiang place, etc. Basically, that was all those places did, all day, all year. While I went to a few fancier sit-down spots with trained chefs and extensive menus - which were great! - it seems like you just don't get that kind of specialization in casual Chinese restaurants here.
Seriously, Shanghai was food heaven. It is my favorite city of all cities now and forever, but not just because of the food.
posted by Frowner at 8:15 AM on October 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
- regional cuisines and regional variants often don't make it over here. There aren't that many Shanghai-style or Suzhou style restaurants here at all, and Shanghai-style dishes in restaurants specializing in other cuisines tend not to be quite right.
- supply chain stuff. In Shanghai, the produce was so good and so plentiful, like nothing you get here, and there were a bunch of things that you either just can't get here at all (some mystery fruits) or can only get rarely and don't travel well (fresh lychees - so plentiful and good in season there; you'd see heaps of lychee shells by the garbage tips because people were eating them on the street all the time). Also, better tofu. I've had some really great locally made tofu at places in the US, but the baseline in Shanghai was much better.
- Smaller pool of cooks. There are just fewer people who can cook regional dishes, so the odds of hitting a really talented one are lower.
- Not so much street food/casual food. In Shanghai especially, my favorite food was pretty much baozi from the campus baozi stall, noodles from a local fried noodle specialist, soups from the soup place, Xinjiang rice and noodle dishes from the tiny Xinjiang place, etc. Basically, that was all those places did, all day, all year. While I went to a few fancier sit-down spots with trained chefs and extensive menus - which were great! - it seems like you just don't get that kind of specialization in casual Chinese restaurants here.
Seriously, Shanghai was food heaven. It is my favorite city of all cities now and forever, but not just because of the food.
posted by Frowner at 8:15 AM on October 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
My answer is "terroir" which is basically the same thing flourpot is talking about.
posted by Brittanie at 8:18 AM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Brittanie at 8:18 AM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
I mean, I'm Italian and there is no question that Italian food is better at home than it is in the US. Some might come close, but you can't beat local ingredients.
As an example, the area I'm from is known for aged salted beef (carne salata). It's prepared in barrels with spices and served raw as a carpaccio or sauteed with beans. Drive 50 miles in any direction and you will not be able to find any. There is no way to export something like that. Now multiply that for every ingredient: vegetables, cheeses, fruit, spices. You name it. If any of the components is different, a dish won't necessarily come together right.
Now, if you've never tasted the original, then sure: Italian food made in the US is delicious! But trust me when I tell you you're missing out.
posted by lydhre at 8:21 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
As an example, the area I'm from is known for aged salted beef (carne salata). It's prepared in barrels with spices and served raw as a carpaccio or sauteed with beans. Drive 50 miles in any direction and you will not be able to find any. There is no way to export something like that. Now multiply that for every ingredient: vegetables, cheeses, fruit, spices. You name it. If any of the components is different, a dish won't necessarily come together right.
Now, if you've never tasted the original, then sure: Italian food made in the US is delicious! But trust me when I tell you you're missing out.
posted by lydhre at 8:21 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I feel as though some of the folks chiming in here who arent from NYC may be missing a pretty major thing here - Flushing is basically as China as the US gets, this isnt an issue of secret menus or not enough patrons who understand authentic flavors. Standing on the corner in main street it would be fairly easy to believe you had been chloroformed on the seven train and magically transported to asia. There is food everywhere and its extremely casual and specific, theres the duck bun guy (who only makes duck buns) and the big tray chicken stand in the shopping mall food court (that has zero english language signage but you will totally love if you just get in line behind someone and pantomime you want exactly what they have).
the reality is entirely the supply chain - its why produce tastes better/more californian in california. even in cases where ingredients are the exact same things that would be served in china they have had to travel around the world to get there - you end up in a freshness/authenticity double bind. Either the food is from near to where its served and therefor not identical to the old country or its from the old country and not as fresh as it should be (obviously this isnt true of all things but its true enough to keep things from tasting identical).
As an example i make pretty good thai food - i brought some spices back since the white cardamom they use isnt like what i can buy in US stores - but then there are the issue of the onions - there are these tiny red onion/shallot things you can buy there but not here - do i use a full sized red onion or a shallot here? neither will taste exactly the same.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 8:23 AM on October 20, 2015 [29 favorites]
the reality is entirely the supply chain - its why produce tastes better/more californian in california. even in cases where ingredients are the exact same things that would be served in china they have had to travel around the world to get there - you end up in a freshness/authenticity double bind. Either the food is from near to where its served and therefor not identical to the old country or its from the old country and not as fresh as it should be (obviously this isnt true of all things but its true enough to keep things from tasting identical).
As an example i make pretty good thai food - i brought some spices back since the white cardamom they use isnt like what i can buy in US stores - but then there are the issue of the onions - there are these tiny red onion/shallot things you can buy there but not here - do i use a full sized red onion or a shallot here? neither will taste exactly the same.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 8:23 AM on October 20, 2015 [29 favorites]
I wanted to second Exceptional_Hubris that the (well-meaning) answers about Chinese-American restaurants with gloppy General Tso's, etc., are a little bit off mark here: the Chinese restaurant market in Queens and particularly in Flushing is not geared toward non-Chinese Americans. I mean, now that foodies have "discovered" Flushing some of the restaurants are getting more tourist- and English-friendly, but these restaurants are directly targeting the Chinese and Chinese-American population here. At these places, the "Chinese menu" or "Mandarin menu" is the menu.
In case it matters, I am first-generation Chinese-American from southern California, have lived in mainland China and Taiwan, grew up eating largely home-style Chinese food at home and now cook largely Chinese and Thai food at home. I wouldn't schlep over an hour on the 6 and 7 trains from East Harlem to Flushing to get Chinese food if it wasn't significantly better than the random Chinese takeout place on the corner that I have very unfortunately patronized once and will probably never return to.
In sum, I think a lot of the other answers are spot-on, especially about ingredient availability, but the market for good, "authentic" Chinese food in Queens and Flushing is there.
posted by andrewesque at 8:32 AM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
In case it matters, I am first-generation Chinese-American from southern California, have lived in mainland China and Taiwan, grew up eating largely home-style Chinese food at home and now cook largely Chinese and Thai food at home. I wouldn't schlep over an hour on the 6 and 7 trains from East Harlem to Flushing to get Chinese food if it wasn't significantly better than the random Chinese takeout place on the corner that I have very unfortunately patronized once and will probably never return to.
In sum, I think a lot of the other answers are spot-on, especially about ingredient availability, but the market for good, "authentic" Chinese food in Queens and Flushing is there.
posted by andrewesque at 8:32 AM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
(Also, the Chinese population of NYC is not insubstantial: 573,000 in the five boroughs of NYC, and 209,000 in Queens alone, with likely significantly more in the metro area, especially Long Island.)
posted by andrewesque at 8:35 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by andrewesque at 8:35 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
What part of China are they from? Different Chinatowns in NYC have people from different Chinese areas.
posted by I-baLL at 8:35 AM on October 20, 2015
posted by I-baLL at 8:35 AM on October 20, 2015
My guess is that the food in China isn't necessarily better (assuming we're comparing authentic Chinese regional cuisine cooked at home by a Chinese-born person, or in one of the restaurants in Flushing that caters entirely to the Chinese community in NYC), it's just different. But it's different in a way that feels "worse" to recent Chinese immigrants because the food they are able to make in America is ever so slightly not "right".
This is about how I feel about Louisiana cooking outside Louisiana. I've found many quite authentic Cajun restaurants in other parts of the US, but just due to little differences like what brands of beans are available, the price of seafood, etc. dishes that are authentic overall come out tasting slightly different than I expect. This even happens in my own cooking, despite knowing exactly what these recipes are supposed to taste like. My gumbo is ever so slightly different from my mom's gumbo, because I'm at the mercy of Californian ingredients. I imagine it's even worse traversing the distance from China to the US, where there have to be much greater differences than Louisiana vs. California.
For what it's worth, I do think the ingredients idea and the chef idea from your post are probably correct. You can't import every single ingredient exactly as it's sold in China, and even if you could, that would probably affect food costs for the restaurants, so the taste might still be different as chefs adjusted recipes to make them cost effective with the exotic imported ingredients. Also, while obviously it would be trivial for a great chef to immigrate to the US, why would they? Presumably there are tons of people in China who want to pay a lot of money to eat their food. I feel like, with maybe a few notable exceptions, most of the great non-American chefs are not interested in moving to the US. And none of the exceptions are doing so to cater to an immigrant community.
posted by Sara C. at 8:40 AM on October 20, 2015
This is about how I feel about Louisiana cooking outside Louisiana. I've found many quite authentic Cajun restaurants in other parts of the US, but just due to little differences like what brands of beans are available, the price of seafood, etc. dishes that are authentic overall come out tasting slightly different than I expect. This even happens in my own cooking, despite knowing exactly what these recipes are supposed to taste like. My gumbo is ever so slightly different from my mom's gumbo, because I'm at the mercy of Californian ingredients. I imagine it's even worse traversing the distance from China to the US, where there have to be much greater differences than Louisiana vs. California.
For what it's worth, I do think the ingredients idea and the chef idea from your post are probably correct. You can't import every single ingredient exactly as it's sold in China, and even if you could, that would probably affect food costs for the restaurants, so the taste might still be different as chefs adjusted recipes to make them cost effective with the exotic imported ingredients. Also, while obviously it would be trivial for a great chef to immigrate to the US, why would they? Presumably there are tons of people in China who want to pay a lot of money to eat their food. I feel like, with maybe a few notable exceptions, most of the great non-American chefs are not interested in moving to the US. And none of the exceptions are doing so to cater to an immigrant community.
posted by Sara C. at 8:40 AM on October 20, 2015
As another way of saying something others have pointed out, I think that in any place where food production has passed beyond the level of a single household making things from scratch you may end up with complex supply chains that just can't be replicated somewhere else or exported in their full variety. Particularly, it seems to me that when you've got an ingredient that is actually a byproduct of another manufacturing process but has taken on a life of its own, it's not going to be the same when it's made on purpose.
A food product I find myself missing, from time to time, which I had as a child growing up in the U.S. in the 80s, were Carnation Instant Breakfast Bars. I suppose they were intended to be like granola bars but I've never encountered anything like them since, even with entire aisles of granola bars available in some supermarkets here in the 21st century. They weren't even particularly good: covered in waxy bland faux chocolate, a dense consistency somewhat like particle board that crumbled as you ate it and made a mess, and tasting as though it was made from some sort of grain product that was already getting stale but had been somehow refreshed.
I wonder even if the company who made them originally would be able to re-create them today, but when you've got something made from ingredients that are produced in the course of multiple stages by different parties, you may not even have one person who knows exactly why the final product has the exact qualities it has.
Another dimension of different supply chains is going to be that in the U.S., perhaps the head chef in a NYC restaurant in particular has a dozen different options to choose from for something like off-the-shelf salted duck eggs or a particular sort of soy sauce; but a chef in a similar position, or even at a more humble establishment, in China might get to choose the best from hundreds of suppliers of the same thing.
posted by XMLicious at 8:40 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
A food product I find myself missing, from time to time, which I had as a child growing up in the U.S. in the 80s, were Carnation Instant Breakfast Bars. I suppose they were intended to be like granola bars but I've never encountered anything like them since, even with entire aisles of granola bars available in some supermarkets here in the 21st century. They weren't even particularly good: covered in waxy bland faux chocolate, a dense consistency somewhat like particle board that crumbled as you ate it and made a mess, and tasting as though it was made from some sort of grain product that was already getting stale but had been somehow refreshed.
I wonder even if the company who made them originally would be able to re-create them today, but when you've got something made from ingredients that are produced in the course of multiple stages by different parties, you may not even have one person who knows exactly why the final product has the exact qualities it has.
Another dimension of different supply chains is going to be that in the U.S., perhaps the head chef in a NYC restaurant in particular has a dozen different options to choose from for something like off-the-shelf salted duck eggs or a particular sort of soy sauce; but a chef in a similar position, or even at a more humble establishment, in China might get to choose the best from hundreds of suppliers of the same thing.
posted by XMLicious at 8:40 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm with Exceptional_Huris on this. Restaurants in Flushing are not trying to cater to the taste of US Americans, and in fact, as I understand it, they're consciously choosing dishes that won't suffer terribly from the difference in ingredients.
Even so, to some extent that difference will be there, just as it varies among US states and US socioeconomic cultures.
I also remember eating fresh lizhi (litchee) in China, which you literally can't get in the US AFAIK
The first time I tasted canned green beans was a revelation of sorts (i.e., "Oh, THIS is why people 'don't eat their vegetables!'"). My mother always grew her own (and yes, "canned" some for the winter months, but there was still a world of difference between those and the store-bought ones).
So yes, ingredients matter a great deal, which is true everywhere. This is not a matter of saving costs because the consumer is clueless. At least not in Flushing.
Edit to say I have bought litchee here in NYC (both in Chinatown and Astoria). Not sure how fresh, but definitely not canned.
posted by whoiam at 8:47 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Even so, to some extent that difference will be there, just as it varies among US states and US socioeconomic cultures.
I also remember eating fresh lizhi (litchee) in China, which you literally can't get in the US AFAIK
The first time I tasted canned green beans was a revelation of sorts (i.e., "Oh, THIS is why people 'don't eat their vegetables!'"). My mother always grew her own (and yes, "canned" some for the winter months, but there was still a world of difference between those and the store-bought ones).
So yes, ingredients matter a great deal, which is true everywhere. This is not a matter of saving costs because the consumer is clueless. At least not in Flushing.
Edit to say I have bought litchee here in NYC (both in Chinatown and Astoria). Not sure how fresh, but definitely not canned.
posted by whoiam at 8:47 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
> I also remember eating fresh lizhi (litchee) in China, which you literally can't get in the US AFAIK
I have bought them here in San Francisco when they're in season, in regular grocery stores as well as farmers markets and Chinatown markets.
On to the question: "Better" is so subjective that I don't think you're going to find a silver-bullet answer. If you could magically present your girlfriend's family with two dishes, one cooked in the US and one in China, both made with the same ingredients and cooked by skilled chefs, which would they prefer? Would they be able to tell the difference? Maybe - really basic things like what the water is like can make a surprising difference in how a dish turns out.
posted by rtha at 8:48 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have bought them here in San Francisco when they're in season, in regular grocery stores as well as farmers markets and Chinatown markets.
On to the question: "Better" is so subjective that I don't think you're going to find a silver-bullet answer. If you could magically present your girlfriend's family with two dishes, one cooked in the US and one in China, both made with the same ingredients and cooked by skilled chefs, which would they prefer? Would they be able to tell the difference? Maybe - really basic things like what the water is like can make a surprising difference in how a dish turns out.
posted by rtha at 8:48 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, I'm ethnically Chinese, I live in NYC, eat Chinese food in Flushing pretty regularly, and I have traveled and eaten food all over China. And I don't think the food in China is better than in Flushing as a rule. It just depends on the restaurant.
Are the very best restaurants in China better than the restaurants in Flushing? Obviously. But on average, I don't think the food in China is better. It's a myth that all food in the "mother country" is good. There are plenty of crappy and mediocre restaurants in China - I should know, I've eaten at plenty. And there are a few places in Flushing I would say are better than the average restaurant in China.
So I'm going to say that your girlfriend's family is saying it just because. Memories are always better than reality. And then you go back and eat the food and it doesn't match up with your memories - "oh, the food now isn't as good as when I ate here 15 years ago..."
Also re: secret menus. That's a myth, at least in NYC. In NYC Chinese restaurants, the menus are typically bilingual, and they typically include things that only non-Chinese people order (e.g. General Tso's, Moo goo gai pan, whatever), as well as actual Chinese dishes. The non-Chinese dishes may or may not be in their own section of the menu. Then they sometimes have daily or seasonal specials which they write in Chinese on a blackboard or on flyers on the wall. You would need to be able to read Chinese (or alternately, ask a waiter what they are), but you can certainly order perfectly authentic Chinese food from the menu without knowing any Chinese, presuming you know which English translation corresponds to what dish.
posted by pravit at 8:54 AM on October 20, 2015 [13 favorites]
Are the very best restaurants in China better than the restaurants in Flushing? Obviously. But on average, I don't think the food in China is better. It's a myth that all food in the "mother country" is good. There are plenty of crappy and mediocre restaurants in China - I should know, I've eaten at plenty. And there are a few places in Flushing I would say are better than the average restaurant in China.
So I'm going to say that your girlfriend's family is saying it just because. Memories are always better than reality. And then you go back and eat the food and it doesn't match up with your memories - "oh, the food now isn't as good as when I ate here 15 years ago..."
Also re: secret menus. That's a myth, at least in NYC. In NYC Chinese restaurants, the menus are typically bilingual, and they typically include things that only non-Chinese people order (e.g. General Tso's, Moo goo gai pan, whatever), as well as actual Chinese dishes. The non-Chinese dishes may or may not be in their own section of the menu. Then they sometimes have daily or seasonal specials which they write in Chinese on a blackboard or on flyers on the wall. You would need to be able to read Chinese (or alternately, ask a waiter what they are), but you can certainly order perfectly authentic Chinese food from the menu without knowing any Chinese, presuming you know which English translation corresponds to what dish.
posted by pravit at 8:54 AM on October 20, 2015 [13 favorites]
As a non-Chinese example of the "secret menu" thing, a group of friends and I were on vacation in Quebec city and ate at a fairly pedestrian breakfast place. There was a one-page menu with one side in English and the other in French, and since three of us had at least college-level French abilities, one being a native speaker, we could tell that the things on the French side were different from the English. (French breakfast stuff, not like the lunch menu or anything.) But the waitress actually grabbed the menu out my friend's hand, who was looking at the French side, and turned it over and gave it back to her.
(It doesn't make much sense to me that a restaurant would refuse to serve a particular dish based on the perceived ethnicity of the customer, so I'd expect there was some other explanation, but that's my anecdote.)
posted by XMLicious at 9:13 AM on October 20, 2015
(It doesn't make much sense to me that a restaurant would refuse to serve a particular dish based on the perceived ethnicity of the customer, so I'd expect there was some other explanation, but that's my anecdote.)
posted by XMLicious at 9:13 AM on October 20, 2015
wooh: "the ingredients are hard to get."
Well, maybe sort of? Here's one data point. My (Chinese) mom will go on about how the chicken tasted better back in China than over here. Now, there could be some difference in the kind of common chicken varieties but I suspect the bigger difference is that most of the (affordable) chicken here comes from factory farming whereas the chickens she was used to eating in China were basically backyard, free-range birds. Of course, all the Chinese restaurants could switch over to free-range chickens but then the menu prices would probably increase beyond what their market could sustain.
posted by mhum at 9:23 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Well, maybe sort of? Here's one data point. My (Chinese) mom will go on about how the chicken tasted better back in China than over here. Now, there could be some difference in the kind of common chicken varieties but I suspect the bigger difference is that most of the (affordable) chicken here comes from factory farming whereas the chickens she was used to eating in China were basically backyard, free-range birds. Of course, all the Chinese restaurants could switch over to free-range chickens but then the menu prices would probably increase beyond what their market could sustain.
posted by mhum at 9:23 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I grew up in the San Gabriel Valley, which is about as Chinese as it gets in the U.S. I know plenty of people who are perfectly happy to admit that there are lots of restaurants in the SGV that are just as good, if not better than what you can find in China, and having eaten at my share of mediocre restaurants in China, that fits with my personal experiences. But there are also atrociously crummy Chinese restaurants in the U.S., bad enough that they would be considered an abject abomination in China, and when you factor those in, they pull the average down a fair tick.
But people are also weird and fickle, because I've heard people wax rhapsodical about how good the produce is back home, but then turn around and start talking about how California is better because of higher food safety standards, so who knows?
That said, I do think there are a number of ingredients that are much more difficult to source in the U.S., so particular dishes are much harder to come by and not likely to be as fresh, and if that's what you're craving, nothing you find in the U.S. is likely to satisfy.
posted by Diagonalize at 9:33 AM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
But people are also weird and fickle, because I've heard people wax rhapsodical about how good the produce is back home, but then turn around and start talking about how California is better because of higher food safety standards, so who knows?
That said, I do think there are a number of ingredients that are much more difficult to source in the U.S., so particular dishes are much harder to come by and not likely to be as fresh, and if that's what you're craving, nothing you find in the U.S. is likely to satisfy.
posted by Diagonalize at 9:33 AM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
I have bought them here in San Francisco when they're in season, in regular grocery stores as well as farmers markets and Chinatown markets.
Yes, they happen to be in season now and they have them at my local farmers market. Now I want to know if they taste the same (or how different they taste.)
A food product I find myself missing, from time to time, which I had as a child growing up in the U.S. in the 80s, were Carnation Instant Breakfast Bars.
These were the best!! (But yes, also the worst.) I thought I was the only one who missed these. Occasionally I check to see if someone has posted a good facsimile recipe but no luck yet and I bet they couldn't be reproduced today. I should check eBay; with whatever was in it plus that foil package I wouldn't be surprised if they had a Twinkie-length shelf life.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:21 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, they happen to be in season now and they have them at my local farmers market. Now I want to know if they taste the same (or how different they taste.)
A food product I find myself missing, from time to time, which I had as a child growing up in the U.S. in the 80s, were Carnation Instant Breakfast Bars.
These were the best!! (But yes, also the worst.) I thought I was the only one who missed these. Occasionally I check to see if someone has posted a good facsimile recipe but no luck yet and I bet they couldn't be reproduced today. I should check eBay; with whatever was in it plus that foil package I wouldn't be surprised if they had a Twinkie-length shelf life.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:21 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Then again: why can't you get a good cheesesteak outside of philly?
You nailed it. For the same reason the best barbecue comes from your region, nobody eats deep dish pizza outside of Chicago, and Corona only tastes good on a beach.
posted by cmoj at 10:37 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
You nailed it. For the same reason the best barbecue comes from your region, nobody eats deep dish pizza outside of Chicago, and Corona only tastes good on a beach.
posted by cmoj at 10:37 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
You might be interested in this article about an American who's made it his life's work to make authentic Italian mozzarella di buffala in the U.S. It's ridiculously difficult to get the texture right.
posted by danceswithlight at 10:41 AM on October 20, 2015
posted by danceswithlight at 10:41 AM on October 20, 2015
There's less pressure to be awesome in the US. In China (at least in large cities), if you're not constantly updating your menu with new exotic stuff or perfecting your dishes, you won't draw enough business to keep the lights on.
I don't think the food is necessarily better. There's just more variety in China. I think increased variety also partly explains why food is so great in Taiwan-- it's sort of a melting pot of various regional cuisines in China.
posted by gemutlichkeit at 10:52 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't think the food is necessarily better. There's just more variety in China. I think increased variety also partly explains why food is so great in Taiwan-- it's sort of a melting pot of various regional cuisines in China.
posted by gemutlichkeit at 10:52 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
> All the analysis is fine, but isn't some of this just a variation on "nobody makes it like mom" rhetoric?
No, it isn't. After I got used to eating real Chinese food in Taiwan, I couldn't eat it in the States for a year or so until my palate had pretty much forgotten the real thing, and I don't have a Chinese mom.
Some excellent answers here about ingredients not traveling well and the like, but please don't try to answer if you're just going to throw out vague generalities pulled out of your nether regions.
posted by languagehat at 12:16 PM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
No, it isn't. After I got used to eating real Chinese food in Taiwan, I couldn't eat it in the States for a year or so until my palate had pretty much forgotten the real thing, and I don't have a Chinese mom.
Some excellent answers here about ingredients not traveling well and the like, but please don't try to answer if you're just going to throw out vague generalities pulled out of your nether regions.
posted by languagehat at 12:16 PM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Nobody has mentioned MSG which depending on the style of food is used less outside of china due to the backlash against it here. There is a smaller selection of basic sauces and spices here, like even soya sauce has a more limited selection, where as there are local producers that can't export, and it tastes slightly different. The other unmentioned difference is equipment. For example proper stir-fry technique requires very high heat and specialty giant woks and so on, which some restaurants have custom made for their chef's style, but others may not.
posted by captaincrouton at 12:54 PM on October 20, 2015
posted by captaincrouton at 12:54 PM on October 20, 2015
I find some restaurants in the US to be inauthentic because I am comparing them to what my mom cooked at home. First, my family comes from a different region than what is usually represented in the US. So things are close . . . . but not right. Second, home cooking is always different than restaurant cooking.
posted by pizzazz at 1:23 PM on October 20, 2015
posted by pizzazz at 1:23 PM on October 20, 2015
Chicken is tastier in China, as someone upthread said- lots of the animals sold for meat are "wild" and more natural, and tastier. Fruits and vegetables, locally grown and sold, tend to be much more flavorful as well.
I also agree with: smaller pool of cooks (and many restaurant workers from China were not in the restaurant business in China but it is one of the few jobs they can get here if they are undocumented and/or uneducated), even in a place like NYC, as well as less competition; harder to find ingredients, menus catered to americans, etc.
Also in the US, immigrants from certain areas of China are under-represented (most are from southern china) but sometimes they cook food from different regions of China, and in that case it's probably not as good as if a chef from that region cooked it. (most Chinese immigrants in the US are from southern China, either Guangdong or Fuijian province, although NYC would have a more diverse group)
posted by bearette at 3:47 PM on October 20, 2015
I also agree with: smaller pool of cooks (and many restaurant workers from China were not in the restaurant business in China but it is one of the few jobs they can get here if they are undocumented and/or uneducated), even in a place like NYC, as well as less competition; harder to find ingredients, menus catered to americans, etc.
Also in the US, immigrants from certain areas of China are under-represented (most are from southern china) but sometimes they cook food from different regions of China, and in that case it's probably not as good as if a chef from that region cooked it. (most Chinese immigrants in the US are from southern China, either Guangdong or Fuijian province, although NYC would have a more diverse group)
posted by bearette at 3:47 PM on October 20, 2015
Ah hell, you don't even have to travel from country to country to get this phenomena. I've lived in all parts of the United States and I can say this happens here too. Get someone from The South and they will tell you, with great authority, that you can't get anyone outside of The South who can make any authentic Southern dishes -- think Biscuits & Gravy, barbecue, or iced tea -- "right". And you don't even need a passport to get the ingredients. No matter how hard any Yankee tries to make 'em, they just won't taste as good as if they were made in The South.
I do miss Biscuits & Gravy... but I don't miss sweet tea.
posted by patheral at 4:28 PM on October 20, 2015
I do miss Biscuits & Gravy... but I don't miss sweet tea.
posted by patheral at 4:28 PM on October 20, 2015
Don't forget, it's quite common in China (particularly street food stalls) to only do one or two particular items and ONLY them. If you're at a baozi stall but want a bowl of dandan noodles? You'll have to go to a different vendor. It's hard to compare someone who only does one thing to a restaurant that has perhaps a hundred items on their menu, some of which rarely get ordered.
And the other thing would be species and varieties. As per JoannaC's example of a fish found only in a particular river, most of the fruit and veg you see in China will not be the same varieties you find in even well-stocked grocers in the West. The cucumbers that you get in Hunan province will not be the same varieties you find in Queens, so right from the get-go your Pai Huang Gua
is going to be different.
posted by ninazer0 at 9:48 PM on October 20, 2015
And the other thing would be species and varieties. As per JoannaC's example of a fish found only in a particular river, most of the fruit and veg you see in China will not be the same varieties you find in even well-stocked grocers in the West. The cucumbers that you get in Hunan province will not be the same varieties you find in Queens, so right from the get-go your Pai Huang Gua
is going to be different.
posted by ninazer0 at 9:48 PM on October 20, 2015
To be legally imported into the U.S, Sichuan peppercorns have to be heat treated. I don't know if it actually makes a difference, but when I visited China, I felt like the ma la flavors were a lot more "tingly" rather than just plain numbing.
Like I said, I'm not certain and it could all be in my head, but it's one concrete example of where one ingredient used in "authentic" Chinese food is handled differently in the U.S.
posted by timelord at 10:53 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Like I said, I'm not certain and it could all be in my head, but it's one concrete example of where one ingredient used in "authentic" Chinese food is handled differently in the U.S.
posted by timelord at 10:53 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
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