job offer decisions
October 13, 2015 10:19 PM Subscribe
Should I take a job offer at a non-profit with lower salary but other nice benefits?
Because the job offer is at a non-profit, I expected a lower salary going in. The nice part about this job is that it'll be fully remote, so I would get to work where I see fit. This is something I've desired to do (move abroad, live like a digital nomad), so it could be kind of nice. I would be going from 110k -> 90k, with some other benefits like more vacation time (though my current place does have "unlimited" vacation, which I haven't taken much of in practice). I also live in a high COL area so that may be why I consider this offer to be low.
Regardless, I'm not sure if it's worth the lower salary, as I do have some other jobs I'm currently in the application process for (they're also remote jobs, but these processes may not end in offers and I'm not sure if I can extend the current offer long enough to wait for the others to come through). I'd get to work on some interesting stuff with this job offer and of the jobs I'm waiting on, at least one of them also has really interesting work as well.
I have already done some negotiations on this job offer and they bumped up the salary, but it's still not at what I'm currently paid (expected given that I currently work for a for-profit firm). Is it a good idea to take a job with lower salary if the other aspects of the job appeal to me? Should I hold out for other jobs that I may not receive? I'm more worried about how this may affect my salary potential in the long run, when the economy isn't as good as it is now. (As a side note: Why am I unable to be more carefree about money the way my peers seem to be? :( )
Throwaway email: unsureofwhattodohere@gmail.com
Because the job offer is at a non-profit, I expected a lower salary going in. The nice part about this job is that it'll be fully remote, so I would get to work where I see fit. This is something I've desired to do (move abroad, live like a digital nomad), so it could be kind of nice. I would be going from 110k -> 90k, with some other benefits like more vacation time (though my current place does have "unlimited" vacation, which I haven't taken much of in practice). I also live in a high COL area so that may be why I consider this offer to be low.
Regardless, I'm not sure if it's worth the lower salary, as I do have some other jobs I'm currently in the application process for (they're also remote jobs, but these processes may not end in offers and I'm not sure if I can extend the current offer long enough to wait for the others to come through). I'd get to work on some interesting stuff with this job offer and of the jobs I'm waiting on, at least one of them also has really interesting work as well.
I have already done some negotiations on this job offer and they bumped up the salary, but it's still not at what I'm currently paid (expected given that I currently work for a for-profit firm). Is it a good idea to take a job with lower salary if the other aspects of the job appeal to me? Should I hold out for other jobs that I may not receive? I'm more worried about how this may affect my salary potential in the long run, when the economy isn't as good as it is now. (As a side note: Why am I unable to be more carefree about money the way my peers seem to be? :( )
Throwaway email: unsureofwhattodohere@gmail.com
As a sidenote, your peers may have family money or spousal income. For some people, $20k literally doesn't matter. You're probably not those people or you wouldn't be asking this question.
posted by chrchr at 10:49 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 10:49 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
This sounds great, assuming you can afford it and they would really be on-board with you being a "digital nomad" (some jobs let you work remote but demand you be around during "office hours," which may not be possible if you're in a radically different timezone.) Also, look into the tax/immigration implications of working from another country, if you haven't already.
I'd also like to throw in a side-note about "unlimited vacation," as it is a shitty shitty trick. Vacation days are a form of compensation- in many states the company is obliged to pay unused ones out when you leave. When a "cool" company offers "unlimited vacation" they are offering zero vacation days. If you had vacation days before, they are reducing your compensation while pretending to be doing you a favor. (A truly "cool" company would have a set amount of vacation days and then let you exceed it anyway on a case-by-case basis).
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:56 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'd also like to throw in a side-note about "unlimited vacation," as it is a shitty shitty trick. Vacation days are a form of compensation- in many states the company is obliged to pay unused ones out when you leave. When a "cool" company offers "unlimited vacation" they are offering zero vacation days. If you had vacation days before, they are reducing your compensation while pretending to be doing you a favor. (A truly "cool" company would have a set amount of vacation days and then let you exceed it anyway on a case-by-case basis).
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:56 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
If it's truly a work-anywhere job, and you are willing to be a digital nomad, I'm not sure how high cost of living factors into it. Take the job, move somewhere cheap to live, and enjoy how much further 90k goes than your previous 110k!
Also you'll be surprised how much you save by not having to commute (saves on petrol, ear and tear on vehicle, or public transport fares, and you might be able to get rid of your car entirely), by not having to buy work appropriate clothes, and by eating at home for lunch if you want to.
posted by lollusc at 11:06 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also you'll be surprised how much you save by not having to commute (saves on petrol, ear and tear on vehicle, or public transport fares, and you might be able to get rid of your car entirely), by not having to buy work appropriate clothes, and by eating at home for lunch if you want to.
posted by lollusc at 11:06 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
It's also worth looking at the take home pay comparison. A gross pay drop often doesn't seem as bad when you look at the net difference. No idea about your tax situation but worth playing with the numbers.
Plus look at your expenses - $20K drop over a whole year less tax less the expenses you won't incur commuting probably isn't going to have that big an impact on your budget.
It'd be different if you were going from $40k to $20K
posted by kitten magic at 11:18 PM on October 13, 2015
Plus look at your expenses - $20K drop over a whole year less tax less the expenses you won't incur commuting probably isn't going to have that big an impact on your budget.
It'd be different if you were going from $40k to $20K
posted by kitten magic at 11:18 PM on October 13, 2015
But to me it sounds like a great opportunity. It's not like you are quitting your career entirely and you say you'll get to work on interesting stuff. Plus moving opens up a bunch of opportunities.
posted by kitten magic at 11:26 PM on October 13, 2015
posted by kitten magic at 11:26 PM on October 13, 2015
(As a side note: Why am I unable to be more carefree about money the way my peers seem to be? :( )
They may well be living beyond their means while incurring lots of credit card debt. Ask me how I know :-/
posted by kitten magic at 11:28 PM on October 13, 2015
They may well be living beyond their means while incurring lots of credit card debt. Ask me how I know :-/
posted by kitten magic at 11:28 PM on October 13, 2015
I would be going from 110k -> 90k,
Which says straight off that this employer does not value you as much as your present employer does.
Non-profits exploit people who are motivated by things other than money in the same way teachers are underpaid. Such an employer will feel free to exploit you in other ways as well.
The sizable cut in salary is all the proof you need.
In general a job is a job and taking the one that pays the most is usually the right choice. At least you won't be second-guessing yourself one year from now because you'll have twenty thousand reasons not to.
posted by three blind mice at 12:23 AM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Which says straight off that this employer does not value you as much as your present employer does.
Non-profits exploit people who are motivated by things other than money in the same way teachers are underpaid. Such an employer will feel free to exploit you in other ways as well.
The sizable cut in salary is all the proof you need.
In general a job is a job and taking the one that pays the most is usually the right choice. At least you won't be second-guessing yourself one year from now because you'll have twenty thousand reasons not to.
posted by three blind mice at 12:23 AM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd do it in a heartbeat. Like lollusc said, if it's your dream to work abroad somewhere you could just go somewhere with a lower cost of living and then you could comparatively be making far more money than you are now.
posted by Enchanting Grasshopper at 12:44 AM on October 14, 2015
posted by Enchanting Grasshopper at 12:44 AM on October 14, 2015
Non-profits exploit people who are motivated by things other than money in the same way teachers are underpaid. Such an employer will feel free to exploit you in other ways as well.
This is a gross generalization and rather disingenuous. Nonprofits pay less because they have less money, and the practice of taking advantage of employees' "passion" to overwork and underpay them is endemic to the American workforce. Jobs in desirable fields like video games are especially terrible at this.
That said, OP, there is sometimes a pretty big difference in workplace culture and "feel" between nonprofits and for-profit companies, and a practice of making do with less is more common (and necessary) in nonprofits. Not in the sense of overworking you, but there can be a bunch of indirect things that add up, like having outdated software or not being able to afford professional development opportunities. Not always a huge deal, but if you're coming from a company that sends you to a bunch of conferences and generally gives you whatever you ask for, it can be a bit of a culture shock. Your nonprofit may vary.
I think in your specific case, the employer's nonprofit status and the salary cut are red herrings. It's the ability to work remotely that will probably make the biggest difference for you, especially if you're planning on uprooting. Remote work isn't for everyone; I did it for half a year, and although I loved the lack of commute, I sort of forgot how to social. But it can be an amazing opportunity. If you've always wanted to move, travel, etc., go for it. (Of course, if you plan on staying in your expensive city and traveling, you might really miss that $20K.)
It's worth seeing if your other offers come through. You might not be able to get this place to extend their offer any further, but you may be able to push the other companies to make a decision earlier.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:01 AM on October 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
This is a gross generalization and rather disingenuous. Nonprofits pay less because they have less money, and the practice of taking advantage of employees' "passion" to overwork and underpay them is endemic to the American workforce. Jobs in desirable fields like video games are especially terrible at this.
That said, OP, there is sometimes a pretty big difference in workplace culture and "feel" between nonprofits and for-profit companies, and a practice of making do with less is more common (and necessary) in nonprofits. Not in the sense of overworking you, but there can be a bunch of indirect things that add up, like having outdated software or not being able to afford professional development opportunities. Not always a huge deal, but if you're coming from a company that sends you to a bunch of conferences and generally gives you whatever you ask for, it can be a bit of a culture shock. Your nonprofit may vary.
I think in your specific case, the employer's nonprofit status and the salary cut are red herrings. It's the ability to work remotely that will probably make the biggest difference for you, especially if you're planning on uprooting. Remote work isn't for everyone; I did it for half a year, and although I loved the lack of commute, I sort of forgot how to social. But it can be an amazing opportunity. If you've always wanted to move, travel, etc., go for it. (Of course, if you plan on staying in your expensive city and traveling, you might really miss that $20K.)
It's worth seeing if your other offers come through. You might not be able to get this place to extend their offer any further, but you may be able to push the other companies to make a decision earlier.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:01 AM on October 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
As a sidenote, your peers may have family money or spousal income. For some people, $20k literally doesn't matter. You're probably not those people or you wouldn't be asking this question.
They may well be living beyond their means while incurring lots of credit card debt. Ask me how I know :-/
You have a lot to consider in making this kind of choice (and congratulations for the offer, whichever way you decide to go), but I wouldn't spend any time worrying about how your peers feel about money. What people say about money can be extremely different than people's real situations, which as noted might include family money, unsustainable levels of debt, or any number of other hidden factors.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:49 AM on October 14, 2015
They may well be living beyond their means while incurring lots of credit card debt. Ask me how I know :-/
You have a lot to consider in making this kind of choice (and congratulations for the offer, whichever way you decide to go), but I wouldn't spend any time worrying about how your peers feel about money. What people say about money can be extremely different than people's real situations, which as noted might include family money, unsustainable levels of debt, or any number of other hidden factors.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:49 AM on October 14, 2015
I took a massive pay cut to go to a job with way more flexibility and a culture that assumes everybody has a life outside the office and won't drop everything for work. Totally worth it, at least for now. And lots of other people have stories like this. I don't think it does affect your salary in future jobs. You can easily set expectations in negotiations by saying, "My salary requirement is $X," and in the unlikely event that they ask what you're currently making and why you want such a big increase, you can explain that you're now returning to the private sector where you expect to be paid at market rates.
Salary is a big factor, but not the biggest factor, in deciding whether to take a job. There's no rule that your salary needs to go steadily up with every successive job you take. Think about all the things that are important to you and weigh them.
posted by chickenmagazine at 5:53 AM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Salary is a big factor, but not the biggest factor, in deciding whether to take a job. There's no rule that your salary needs to go steadily up with every successive job you take. Think about all the things that are important to you and weigh them.
posted by chickenmagazine at 5:53 AM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Honestly, depending on the role, you're coming in to the sector at a very high salary, and probably a higher salary than some of your peers with the same job title who came up through the nonprofit sector instead of moving into it later. But as someone who has spent her career fully in the nonprofit sector, I'd say that benefits are a HUGE part of what makes an employer appealing, beyond the smug satisfaction of making the world a better place while others toil to make the rich richer.
The goal of a new job is to match up what you want with what they have, not the other way around. That can be money, yes, but it can also mean flexibility like working remotely, more vacation days, or other tangible or intangible benefits. I see smug satisfaction as a huge intangible benefit of my work, and I consider that a benefit that can be measured against other things. YMMV.
If you're concerned about lifetime earning potential at your next next job, don't be. "I left the computer chip manufacturing sector for the nonprofit sector. I knew I'd be taking a pay cut, but the opportunity to make the world a better place using my skill set was too good to pass up" is a line you'll hear (and use) again and again. Employers you want to work for in the for-profit sector consider market rate, not previous salary, when making and accepting offers.
If you do decide to accept the job, please do reach out proactively to the other applications you have in process to let them know that you're not moving forward. It's the classy thing to do, and it leaves the door open for later if you do it right. A quick email that says, "Thank you so much for taking the time to interview me. Unfortunately, at this time, I need to rescind my candidacy. I've recently accepted another position at [an international NGO/network of homeless shelters/malaria charity/whatever, just don't use the actual name] and I'm looking forward to making a difference in the [lives] of [orphans] when I start there in two weeks. The time I spent interviewing with [your company] was really a pleasure, and I'd enjoy the opportunity to stay in touch. Best of luck in your candidate search!" Then connect with the recruiter or hiring manager on LinkedIn with a friendly note a day or two later, and enjoy your new connections while you travel around the world.
posted by juniperesque at 5:53 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
The goal of a new job is to match up what you want with what they have, not the other way around. That can be money, yes, but it can also mean flexibility like working remotely, more vacation days, or other tangible or intangible benefits. I see smug satisfaction as a huge intangible benefit of my work, and I consider that a benefit that can be measured against other things. YMMV.
If you're concerned about lifetime earning potential at your next next job, don't be. "I left the computer chip manufacturing sector for the nonprofit sector. I knew I'd be taking a pay cut, but the opportunity to make the world a better place using my skill set was too good to pass up" is a line you'll hear (and use) again and again. Employers you want to work for in the for-profit sector consider market rate, not previous salary, when making and accepting offers.
If you do decide to accept the job, please do reach out proactively to the other applications you have in process to let them know that you're not moving forward. It's the classy thing to do, and it leaves the door open for later if you do it right. A quick email that says, "Thank you so much for taking the time to interview me. Unfortunately, at this time, I need to rescind my candidacy. I've recently accepted another position at [an international NGO/network of homeless shelters/malaria charity/whatever, just don't use the actual name] and I'm looking forward to making a difference in the [lives] of [orphans] when I start there in two weeks. The time I spent interviewing with [your company] was really a pleasure, and I'd enjoy the opportunity to stay in touch. Best of luck in your candidate search!" Then connect with the recruiter or hiring manager on LinkedIn with a friendly note a day or two later, and enjoy your new connections while you travel around the world.
posted by juniperesque at 5:53 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Although not in your salary range, my girlfriend recently did something similar - ditching a job at a startup that was willing to pay a lot to keep her for a nonprofit that lets her work remotely.
One thing to think about is whether in practice a lot of people do worn remotely and if the norms of the nonprofit are set up so that remote employees don't get passed over on the reg.
As a datapoint, though, my girlfriend is extremely happy about the job change, even though she is working more than before. The lack of commute has really dramatically increased her happiness in general. Being able to work anywhere makes traveling a lot easier - we can fly out on a day in the middle of the week, work somewhere during the day and have the evenings and weekends free.
posted by dismas at 5:54 AM on October 14, 2015
One thing to think about is whether in practice a lot of people do worn remotely and if the norms of the nonprofit are set up so that remote employees don't get passed over on the reg.
As a datapoint, though, my girlfriend is extremely happy about the job change, even though she is working more than before. The lack of commute has really dramatically increased her happiness in general. Being able to work anywhere makes traveling a lot easier - we can fly out on a day in the middle of the week, work somewhere during the day and have the evenings and weekends free.
posted by dismas at 5:54 AM on October 14, 2015
Non-profits exploit people who are motivated by things other than money in the same way teachers are underpaid. Such an employer will feel free to exploit you in other ways as well.
A counterpoint:
In 2012 I was working in a for-profit industry - one which I actually hated - and had 15 paid vacation days a year.
I got laid off from that job in 2013 and was temping until just this year - when I was offered a job at a non-profit; the pay was $20K less, and I have 20 paid vacation days a year.
You couldn't convince me to take my old job back even if you literally paid me. I have more vacation time (and the culture is such that I feel like people don't hate me if I use it), and the work I do makes me feel like I'm actually doing something to benefit the world even in a small part. I am still able to make my expenses despite that $20K pay cut, and while I have to save a bit more in advance for the vacation time and fun stuff than I would have done at my old job, I'm already happier, and so I'm in a much better headspace to avail myself of the benefits I get. (No matter how much vacation time you get, it's irrelevant if you spend the first half of every vacation "decompressing" from a job you hate, and a more modest vacation is just fine if you go into it already moderately happy because you're at a job you love.)
The problem with non-profits paying people less isn't the fault of the non-profits being exploitative hacks; it's the fault of society for thinking that making a quick buck is more important than caring for one's fellow man in some way. And that's not a problem that can be solved by simply choosing one job over another.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:42 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
A counterpoint:
In 2012 I was working in a for-profit industry - one which I actually hated - and had 15 paid vacation days a year.
I got laid off from that job in 2013 and was temping until just this year - when I was offered a job at a non-profit; the pay was $20K less, and I have 20 paid vacation days a year.
You couldn't convince me to take my old job back even if you literally paid me. I have more vacation time (and the culture is such that I feel like people don't hate me if I use it), and the work I do makes me feel like I'm actually doing something to benefit the world even in a small part. I am still able to make my expenses despite that $20K pay cut, and while I have to save a bit more in advance for the vacation time and fun stuff than I would have done at my old job, I'm already happier, and so I'm in a much better headspace to avail myself of the benefits I get. (No matter how much vacation time you get, it's irrelevant if you spend the first half of every vacation "decompressing" from a job you hate, and a more modest vacation is just fine if you go into it already moderately happy because you're at a job you love.)
The problem with non-profits paying people less isn't the fault of the non-profits being exploitative hacks; it's the fault of society for thinking that making a quick buck is more important than caring for one's fellow man in some way. And that's not a problem that can be solved by simply choosing one job over another.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:42 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I feel like I could just copy and paste the same job answer for all these types of questions. No one here can tell you what to do. I'd assess if you are happy enough at your job to stay or unhappy enough to take a gamble on a situation that could be better or worse. You may know the pay, the benefits, the industry, etc., but there are a lot of things you can't know or predict. So, is it worth taking a chance? Another thing is to consider what you want to weight the most in these lists -- is a new career path your top priority? Is salary most important? Not every benefit or drawback is equal. Weigh things properly and then go with your cut.
For my personal experience, the opportunity to work remotely outweighed everything else for me. I don't love the work that I do necessarily and my organization can be a little dysfunctional, but being able to live wherever I want is more valuable to me than money, prestige, or doing something more exciting. I originally planned to be a "nomad" like you describe as well, but I loved the first city I stopped in so I stayed and scrapped my plans to city hop. I wouldn't have been able to find a job in this city without the remote working as the market here is quite tough. I also think 90k is plenty, especially as a remote worker, because you can live somewhere with a better cost-of-living that includes all the amenities of a city with higher cost-of-living.
posted by AppleTurnover at 1:31 PM on October 14, 2015
For my personal experience, the opportunity to work remotely outweighed everything else for me. I don't love the work that I do necessarily and my organization can be a little dysfunctional, but being able to live wherever I want is more valuable to me than money, prestige, or doing something more exciting. I originally planned to be a "nomad" like you describe as well, but I loved the first city I stopped in so I stayed and scrapped my plans to city hop. I wouldn't have been able to find a job in this city without the remote working as the market here is quite tough. I also think 90k is plenty, especially as a remote worker, because you can live somewhere with a better cost-of-living that includes all the amenities of a city with higher cost-of-living.
posted by AppleTurnover at 1:31 PM on October 14, 2015
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One note - if you go international, make sure they're on board with you traveling outside of the country while working. Depending on what the nature of the work is, they may prohibit taking work information across some or all borders.
posted by Candleman at 10:35 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]