Whether to tell annoying person she's annoying.

October 2, 2015 6:24 PM

Is it even something I should consider?

Let's call her Alice. Alice is funny and smart, and could be a great person to hang out with. But she's also got low self esteem and boundary issues, so no one wants anything to do with her. She has a habit of sussing out who has been hanging out with who, and asking them why she wasn't invited. Most recently she heard that four of us had brunch at a cafe last week. She asked me if I had been there, which I confirmed. Then she asked another attendee (fake name Betty), who also confirmed and also mentioned that we had just decided to meet up after our Weight Watchers meeting that morning. Then, Alice asked me if I was doing WW, which I confirmed. She goes back to Betty and is asking why she wasn't invited to this brunch "event", and why the PTA never invited her to anything. With that, she's totally conflating issues and mixing things up, but that tends to happen with paranoid types.

So my question is, should I talk to her about this? I'd love to sit her down and gently tell her that she's fun and awesome, but she has to chill out. She has to let her friends have other friends. She has to stop being jealous and poking around in other people's business. If she were just to chill out, everyone would be so much more willing to hang out with her. We all have busy lives, but she takes things personally when you don't text her back right away, and stuff like that. We're friends right now, but haven't known each other very long at all. I'm definitely willing to "risk the friendship". If she were to take my advice, her social life would be much improved, if not her anxiety levels about this kind of stuff. It's not my place to advise her, though, so I'm very much torn on what to do.

A few extras to note: we're all older women in our mid 30s to mid 40s. Everyone mentioned, except for Alice, has children at the local elementary school. (She's been unable to, but fostered a child for a short while last year, before I knew her.) We are not all in the PTA, but many are, and most of us volunteer our time at the school regardless of PTA membership. My point being, we've all got very busy lives with the exception of Alice, who doesn't work. She does occasionally volunteer at the school as well.

Anyway, to sit her down and give her some advice, or just continue to play nice and try to slowly disengage from being friends with her at all....?

posted by wwartorff to Human Relations (20 answers total)

This sort of gentle correction will go better if it addresses specific instances and isn't a global criticism of her character. Don't say "you are like this", instead try "I felt X when you did this specific Y".
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 6:43 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]

No, you should not do this. Just disengage.
posted by zutalors! at 6:43 PM on October 2, 2015 [10 favorites]

No, don't do this, and especially don't tell her that you've all got busy lives and she doesn't. You don't know that.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:44 PM on October 2, 2015 [7 favorites]

You're going to get a lot of conflicting advice here. My opinion depends on if you think if you have this talk with her and it goes well, and she starts taking it easy, that the other women will accept her more.

If you think that's true, then the kind thing to do is to tell her. Find a nice way to do it, and frame it like, "We would like to continue being your friend and here is what we need from you". If what she needs is friends, and what she's doing is counter to that, then as her friend I think it's definitely your place to advise her - in fact you're the only one who can. No one else in her life can give her this kind of feedback because they aren't there and they don't know. She's already having a hard time and she's now stuck in quicksand of her own making. It would be a kindness to help her out of this if it will really have a good end result for her.

If she doesn't respond well, well that's a risk you're willing to take and it's on her.

If you don't think the other women will accept her any way - then I still think you should say something, just something more to the point that no one wants anything to do with her (in a nice way..!). But I prefer that people are straightforward with me when I'm trying to put myself out there. A lot of people don't feel that way.
posted by bleep at 6:46 PM on October 2, 2015

I know someone like that. Flat-out telling her to lay off only made things worse (even though she asked what was wrong!), but everyone collectively refusing to engage in her "where were you with whom and why wasn't I invited" gambits has at least improved the behavior, if not the underlying anxiety.
posted by teremala at 6:48 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]

Imagine that this woman is a 6th or 7th grader in middle school (since that's the age group I associate with her type of catty behavior). What would happen if you told a 12-13 year old that she's annoying? Would it end well? Probably not, right? Just start the slow fade and let this immature person be since it would likely only heighten her weird social hierarchy anxiety and make everything worse.
posted by Hermione Granger at 6:52 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]

I think it's unlikely if you speak for the group in this that the others would back this up at all. When she goes to them they'll distance themselves from this because they'll see it as "drama" and will probably distance themselves from you. In my experience adults are incredibly conflict averse. Incredibly.
posted by zutalors! at 7:03 PM on October 2, 2015 [20 favorites]

Oh dear. Do Alice a favor and disengage. No good can possibly come from telling her she is annoying. Oh, just... I can't imagine the sting that would be. That could be very painful for her.

I recently had a situation with a toxic person in a group of people. We all share a weekly activity and he is the organizer for said activity. I had to break up with him, as it were, because he was not a good person to have in my life. He made me feel stupid and was generally unkind. But when I broke it off I simply said, hey, I can't do this thing with you guys anymore, thanks for the initial invite, and it was fun while I was able to be a part of it.

I heard no reply. If he wants to ask himself why I left, and why other individuals have also left the group, he can do a bit of soul searching. He can ask himself these questions. He is an adult and adults should be able to be introspective.

Alice is old enough now that this is not her first rodeo. She has done this before. She can be introspective or she can keep doing the things she does. You telling her that she is annoying and that she needs to let her friends have friends of their own is not going to do a darn thing. She will not take your advice. That kind of thing has to come from within, especially when you are Alice's age.

When she asks where you were and who you were with you can simply say, I don't want to talk about this, did you see Survivor last night? Or, I don't really like talking about people like this, did you see that story in the New Yorker last week? Or, this conversation isn't comfortable for me, but I wanted to tell you about this funny thing that happened to me last week. Whatever. Change the topic and do not engage with her shenanigans.

I mean, look, here's the real thing, the heart of it all: Alice almost certainly doesn't actually want to be your friend, because she doesn't want friends who don't engage in this kind of back and forth drama stuff of who was with who and why wasn't that other person there and hey why didn't you text me back. She doesn't want friends. When you stop engaging with it, she won't have anything to talk about with you that interests her.

I had a friend like Alice once. I simultaneously pity her and am so glad to be rid of her. She was annoying and drained my energy with her drama. But she also could not be alone, and that is very, very sad. But that is all on her. You are not a blanky; you aren't a stuffed animal. You do not exist to soothe Alice's desire to be liked or to be included. You are a real person, and you don't need "friends" like Alice.

And finally: why do you care? I mean like, really, why do you care? Why is this your business? Why do you want to "help" her in a way that is actually almost certainly going to be painful for her? I want to gently suggest that the way you are describing Alice is not very kind, and that detached compassion might be a better route for you in this situation. You can feel bad that she does not have what she wants without getting entangled in it.
posted by sockermom at 7:03 PM on October 2, 2015 [34 favorites]

Someone in their late 30s/early 40s who is so anxious that it affects their social life is not going to be able to just stop on a dime. The patterns are too ingrained. So unless you are prepared to be patient and keep being friends as she tries to work through her anxiety, I would not tell her.
posted by desjardins at 7:23 PM on October 2, 2015 [7 favorites]

My sister is Alice. She is in her 20s and has major anxiety disorder as well as chronically low self esteem, both of which tend to manifest as complete paranoia. My sister is a sweet, kind person who loves fiercely, however she also has a large hole that she desperately tries to fill with others approval which she translates into a false self esteem (if that makes any sense). She values others opinions so much that she seems to believe that positive attention and inclusion equals her worth as a person.

To those of us who have developed into our own where we have been fortunate enough to learn to actively practice self love and self acceptance first and foremost, it seems like a foreign concept.

On the outside looking in we see an attention seeker who must insert herself into every situation and who reads into everything, even when there is really no meaning (such as your brunch). We just see "meh, brunch!" while she sees "let's not invite Alice because we don't like her". It's also her own desperate attempt to assert some sort of control over how she feels about herself, which she interprets from others actions and inclusion.

Most people I know who are like this are able to move onward and grow from this way of thinking, but only after years of self work, examination, therapy and maturation. Most were like this in their twenties and were able to grow from it into self confident, emotionally independent people.

I hate to say it, but with your age cohort this may not be possible with Alice in the short term. I completely understand your intent of saying something to her, but it most likely won't be received well. If she is that far down the anxiety and approval seeking rabbit hole she may not even see what you are trying to do by addressing it with her as a friend and it could quickly escalate into a mess.

I think in this case remaining cordial and civil is best, but put a bit of space between you and Alice. It can be utterly exhausting entertaining people like this and for Alice it's equally exhausting trying to analyze the meaning of everything you do and don't do in terms of how it affects her. I hate giving this answer, but the only way ti could see this situation improving is if Alice truly understands what she is doing and wants to put in the self work.
posted by floweredfish at 8:03 PM on October 2, 2015 [24 favorites]

Frankly, you don't sound as if you really like Alice much at all. Are you SURE you have her best interests at heart or is there something else going on here? Judging from the way you worded your question, my advice would be not to talk to her, if that means you also have to entirely disengage with her than so be it. At least that way she has a chance of finding friends that she meshes better with.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 8:49 PM on October 2, 2015 [7 favorites]

I think you come across as clique-y and excluding. Sorry, that sounds harsh and dismissive, but I guess that's my honest internet stranger read of this, as is. She thinks she has friends and over and over, she finds out that she's being excluded. She's allowed surely to ask if you are doing WW if that is what you are doing - maybe she is genuinely curious about it. Maybe she would like support to do WW too, who knows but the most uncharitable view of this is the one you all seem to favour: catty, boundary pushing.

You seem to be gaslighting her a bit by saying how busy you are, with thinly veiled contempt and superiority about her life, rather than being honest about say, a lack of 'fit' with this particular group of friends. Who wouldn't feel a bit unhappy or self-esteem blundery under these kind of teen clique instances. It sucks. She should probably find other friends and she's not there yet. Sorry to be harsh about this, because I know kinda what you are saying and not everybody needs to get on with, or accommodate everybody.

She needs to 'chill out' seems to be code for popular gals to say 'fuck off until we ask you to join us' and I suspect if she did fuck off you'd all be happier not to be feeling her presence. And the way you are describing Alice's 'catty' boundary issues sounds like it wouldn't really matter even if she didn't have them. I think if you listened differently, you might ponder that what she is really saying is 'do I have a space here with you, my apparent friends?' and she wouldn't be the only one ever to trip over that difficult social territory would she?

IS Alice really catty? IS she really boundary pushing? Or are these behaviours a product of a clique situation that is aimed at excluding her vis a vis not sharing a great deal of interests and life choices? It's okay, as I have said, not to accommodate people you generally have little interest in accommodating.
posted by honey-barbara at 10:36 PM on October 2, 2015 [17 favorites]

Is it even something I should consider?

Nope, nope, nopers. This sounds like someone in pain. Minimize your time around her if she bugs you, and try to be your kindest, most tolerant self when you spend time with her. Channel your inner MeFi mod and filter out the drama from whatever she says, because it's irrelevant and just a byproduct of what she's going through.
posted by thetortoise at 10:50 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]

No, oh heck no.

You aren't Alice's spouse or family, you don't even sound like you're really her friend; plus she's an adult and settled in her ways. Sitting her down like that wouldn't help, it'll just cause even more drama and anger.

When Alice asks why she wasn't invited, tell her it was a PTA event and she isn't a PTA member, ditto Weight Watchers; you could flat-out ask her back why SHOULD you have invited her; or alternatively simply stare blankly and silently at her for a minute then completely change the subject.
posted by easily confused at 1:45 AM on October 3, 2015 [2 favorites]

No, do not talk to her about this, she will take it badly and either withdraw from the friendship, the more rational choice, or continue to make you miserable and blame you for criticizing her. Really what you are saying is that she would be fine if only she were different, and that is probably not something she can be at this time, given her anxiety, and talking to her about this would only further ignite her self-hatred and paranoia, not cause her to change. Leave it alone and disengage as much as you gently can.
posted by mermayd at 3:55 AM on October 3, 2015

I'm going to go against the group here... I do think it's a kindness to gently point out when someone is doing something that alienates others. I don't think you should sit her down and give her a talking-to, but next time she interrogates you about where you were and who else was invited, you could use it as an opportunity to say, "I feel a little defensive when you ask me about where I've been and with whom. I get the sense that you feel hurt when I do things with other friends, but I don't mean to exclude you. I like to get together with friends in different combinations, and not invite everybody every time." And that might start a conversation. From your description, it sounds to me like Alice is right to feel left out. Being the only non-mom in a group of moms whose kids all go to school together is already uncomfortable. And it sounds like she wants to be involved in school stuff, but maybe feels like others exclude her as a non-mom so she has to assert herself and remind you all that she wants to be included.

This isn't necessarily an easy conversation to have. I think you need to go into it not thinking, "I'm going to set Alice straight," but instead, "I want Alice to understand that I don't like it when she questions who I've been with, and I want to understand where she's coming from, and maybe we can work through this together." Which kind of implies that if you are in fact excluding her, you're going to work to include her more.

It's easier to do the slow fade you're talking about. And you don't really owe Alice anything. So if you're not willing to talk through all this with Alice, you should probably leave it alone.
posted by chickenmagazine at 9:52 AM on October 3, 2015 [11 favorites]

It's sad that the consensus seems to be "stonewall her until she figures it out for herself... and she probably won't". I don't know how this is supposed to be a kindness.

I wouldn't go out of my way to sit this person down and explain it to her like she's five, but if she actually asks, she should be granted some kind of simple and honest answer. I agree with chickenmagazine above me, that the cues shouldn't be "you do this and it's wrong" but the "I feel x when you z" and let's talk about it.
posted by lizbunny at 9:57 AM on October 3, 2015 [7 favorites]

If you want to address it, just limit it to one instance at a time. Mention only yourself and what you want, how you feel. General statements won't help: anything like, You have a tendency to..., I've noticed that sometimes...., Why do you always.... Don't say "we" at all; don't answer if she asks any of the other women.

Instead, address it in the moment or soon after, if you need to collect your thoughts. You don't say what kind of things she's doing that bother you... apart from her hounding you about not being included. I'm guessing there are other reasons she's not fun to be with. But here are some examples.

"You're giving me more information than I'm comfortable with."

"After we talked yesterday, you asked Betty the same questions. I wondered if you didn't believe what I'd said."

"I'd rather we not talk about _________."

"I can't speak to what anyone else is thinking."

This is how you set and keep your own boundaries. But there's nothing you can do to get her to change. Her worries and reactions stem from anxiety and her own way of looking at the world. Even if she knew exactly the effect she's having, she'd be unlikely to change (except by avoiding the people who don't care for her.) I know it would be way easier if she could turn it all around based on kind advice!
posted by wryly at 12:55 PM on October 4, 2015

I don't know why some responses are giving you so much grief about this- you've said Alice is fun and awesome! Just difficult due to somewhat intrusive questions and low-self esteem. FWIW, I think there's a lot to be said for treating adults like adults and being gently straightforward with them. "I feel awkward when you give me the third degree about my social interactions." or "I can't speak for the PTA" is a reasonable thing to tell someone. Just be sure to speak only for yourself and not for the "group".
posted by oneirodynia at 1:30 PM on October 4, 2015

Maybe it is exactly as you describe and her problem is entirely self-inflicted, but it can sound like y'all are excluding Alice, because you've decided that she doesn't fit in and that her questions annoy you because they are highlighting that your (collective) behaviour is kinda duplicitous.

It sounds like you at least care, so I think the question bleep asked about whether the other women really would accept her if she modified her behaviour slightly is the one you should focus on. If you think they would accept her then I think you need to start inviting her to more stuff and change the subject in a smoothing over way if she brings up other occasions she feels left out. And only then maybe have a conversation about the anxiety being counter-productive, and even acknowledge that you are including her in more things now.

But - even if you personally are acting in good faith - I'd be surprised in this dynamic if at least one person hadn't already pigeonholed Alice as 'not one of us' and wouldn't notice or care if she did change. And in that case, you just need to join in the slow fade as nicely as possible and accept that you can't change the group dynamic.
posted by plonkee at 1:59 PM on October 4, 2015 [2 favorites]