How to explain the word "derive?"

September 24, 2015 4:20 AM

I'm subbing for a class and one of their vocab words this week is "derive." I've given them definitions and sample sentences but they are continuing to use it wrong. How can I explain it more clearly?

They keep wanting to use it in sentences like "oranges derive from Florida" and "apples derive from trees" which make sense with the basic definition but are just not sentences that sound natural at all. Anyone have an idea how to explain this more clearly?

posted by chaiminda to Education (18 answers total)

Best answer: Many defintions here. In this case it might be helpful to go back to the latin "derivare " which seems to mean "to lead off from". That leading off from can be logical (like an idea) or physical (like in a chemical reaction chain or in the linking of a river to a stream). Once you have broken the chain - by taking the apples from the tree or the oranges from Florida - then you shouldn't use the word.
posted by rongorongo at 4:40 AM on September 24, 2015

I assume with a word like derive in their vocab list these are youngish kids. It's worth considering the utility of explaining to them that some words (like derive...I think utilize would be another one for sure) are good to know to build a robust vocabulary, but aren't very good "use" words because there are perfectly good, much simpler words that will get your point across much better. That the point of a good vocabulary is to make yourself understood, and using a complex word where it isn't needed isn't always the best choice. Learn it, remember it, but don't worry about using it so much.

Personally, the only times I'd ever use derive would be 1) in math where it is actually a distinct thing or 2) when talking about reasoning/logic. Like, "Karen wasn't sure how to blah-blah-blah, but after thinking a way to solve her problem she was able to derive an answer."
posted by phunniemee at 4:43 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

Abstract things derive, concrete things (like oranges) originate.
posted by tomboko at 4:57 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Best answer: derive is one of those words with several meanings that tends to be restricted to certain contexts. I disagree about 'derive' being abstract, unless you're defining just one of the meanings.

phunniemee's example is the mathematical/logical meaning, but the other common meaning is to obtain something from something else, usually by a process where the original thing is processed or changed.

So you can say that plastic is derived from oil, because there's a process going on. You have to extract parts of the oil and then change them chemically to get plastic.

You can say that flour is derived from wheat, which is OK, but a bit less convincing because flour is just ground-up wheat kernels, so you'd probably say 'flour is made from wheat' instead. The process is just smashing the wheat up, so 'derived' is correct, but unnecessary.

You'd never say that apples are derived from trees, because you don't pull up a tree, process it, and make it into apples. You might, however, derive paper from trees.

In short, I'd say that for this definition, the difference between 'derived from' and 'made from' is that the former implies extraction, processing or change, while the latter covers more everyday uses.
posted by pipeski at 5:02 AM on September 24, 2015 [14 favorites]

Best answer: I'd say the distinction in usage between derive and come from is most clearly illustrated by the image of a river and a tributary or channel. When you derive you're de-river-ing, pulling something off from its source to go to a new destination, but maintaining a sense of connection to that source. Can you show them some aerial views of rivers and channels to bring this across?
posted by Diablevert at 5:05 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

They keep wanting to use it in sentences like "oranges derive from Florida" and "apples derive from trees" which make sense with the basic definition ...

Not really, no. I am awful at dealing with formal grammar rules and had to look this up, it accords with my intuitive understanding so I don't feel too bad about it. Derive is a transitive verb, and as such needs a direct object. Neither of your examples has one; they don't tell us *what* the oranges or apples are deriving, just where they're deriving it from.

This is obviously a different problem from the one you'd have if they were saying, "oranges are derived from Florida," which is still awkward but less overtly wrong.
posted by jon1270 at 5:07 AM on September 24, 2015

Response by poster: These are adults, in an adult basic education class.

Derive *can* be a transitive verb, as in, "I derive frustration from teaching vocabulary" but it doesn't have to be, as in, "The word 'script' derives from Latin."

Thank you for your helpful answers!
posted by chaiminda at 5:16 AM on September 24, 2015

Best answer: I teach at the university level and still see these problems all the time. Students have some sense of the word but don't get it quite right because knowing the definition of a word and understanding its use aren't the same thing. So when they mean "quietly" they say "discreetly," and if you try to explain that "discreet" also implies not having people notice or know something, you'll tie yourself in knots because of course the reason they're going to be quiet is not to bother people (i.e. not to draw notice), but it's still not the right word.

The problem is not that they don't know the definition. They do know the definition; it's "come from." The problem is that they don't get the word. They don't understand that it's "come from" in a certain sense. Unfortunately, the way they're going to get that is to see the word used correctly over and over again. In other words, the kind of facility you want them to have with words comes from reading.

I don't think "derive" is in the same class as "utilize." I tell my students (to no avail) never to say "utilize" because there's a simpler word that means exactly the same thing. But for most other words, the meanings of related words aren't exactly the same and some words convey meaning more precisely than others. So yeah, the only way they're going to get this is to read a tonne. Short term solution: Find a bunch of examples of the word used correctly, make up a bunch of examples of the word used the way they would want to use it. Tell them "this use is wrong" and "this use is right" and have them brainstorm in groups what the subtle difference in meaning is. It's ultimately something they're going to have to intuit.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:18 AM on September 24, 2015 [12 favorites]

Ah, well, there goes my theory. Still, the transitive usage is a lot more common.
posted by jon1270 at 5:23 AM on September 24, 2015

Best answer: The simplest way of making the distinction you're looking for is to say "derive means made from not comes from." That still leaves more to explain, but it at least takes care of the Florida case.
posted by alms at 6:07 AM on September 24, 2015

I agree with If only I had a penguin in that with this type of vocab word it's about not only knowing the definition, but getting a "feel" for how the word is actually typically used in English. I think lots of reading passages could help.

I will also say that I have a PhD and scored highly on every verbal section of SATs/GREs etc. that I've taken, and I pretty much never use "derive" in normal or even academic life (i.e. outside of a math or language class). Maybe if I were in some type of engineering job I would. I would think about what your goal is in teaching this particular word. Is it for them to start using it in everyday conversation? Because honestly that is probably just going to sound awkward, period, unless you're having a bunch of conversations about proving math theorems. Is it just that they understand it when they come across it in written text or in a math/logic/whatever course in their future studies? If so, I would gear the examples and instruction toward those real life experiences where you expect they will need to know/use the word.
posted by rainbowbrite at 6:40 AM on September 24, 2015

Response by poster: I'm a sub and I would not have chosen to teach this particular word on my own. But you guys have made it much easier, thank you!
posted by chaiminda at 7:08 AM on September 24, 2015

Perhaps discussing derivative would be a helpful extension of the concept.
posted by oceano at 8:04 AM on September 24, 2015

They probably read fanfiction, which I think is a good illustration of derivation.
posted by theredpen at 8:06 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Best answer: The definition of a word doesn't contain the halo of associations around the word that make it "right" in one context and "wrong" in another. Sometimes, the only way to learn that halo is to be exposed to lots and lots of examples. With lots of example of "right" usage and "wrong" usage, the brain begins to figure out the word, even if it can't put what it has figured out into words.

So that's what I'd suggest. Lots and lots of examples of correct usage; some examples of wrong usage, with a different word that would be better for the wrong-usage examples.
posted by clawsoon at 8:30 AM on September 24, 2015

Yeah, just wanted to chime in that I am a native English-speaking adult with a graduate degree, and am generally regarded as having strong verbal/writing skills, and I am finding it incredibly difficult to produce a natural-sounding sentence using the word derive. Maybe reassure the students that if it feels hard, it's because it's hard.
posted by mskyle at 9:13 AM on September 24, 2015

Perhaps discussing derivative would be a helpful extension of the concept.

Agreed:

"Oranges are derivative of Florida" is daft
"Frozen orange juice concentrate is derivative of oranges" makes sense.

You could also discuss the concept of derivative meaning "substantially influenced by" in the literary/art sense.

"Linux is derivative of Unix"
"The Shanarra trilogy is derivative of The Lord of the Rings"
"Star Wars is derivative of Ran"

If you can make a sensible "derivative" sentence, then you can also make a correspondingly sensible "derived" sentence.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 9:53 PM on September 24, 2015

Contra the comments that "derive" is academic or uncommon, I hear the phrases "to derive satisfaction [from]", "to derive pleasure [from]", and "to derive meaning [from]" quite often. Those might be good examples to use.
posted by aws17576 at 9:59 PM on September 24, 2015