Choosing public service over $$$
September 15, 2015 7:00 PM Subscribe
What to do if you're committed to public service work in a field that is generally corporate/money-driven (law)? How do you hold onto your principles and conviction, not to mention stop hating your classmates?
Asking for a friend, who has a full-tuition public interest scholarship to a T30 law school. To generalize wildly, she finds her classmates unintellectual, instrumentally driven to success, and limited to defining success in financial terms, often with no clear reason as to why they are in law school other than the fact that it is a logical and lucrative career. Because she's less driven by grades than intellectual curiosity, she's really a bit of a novelty. She would be great at being in a humanities PhD program... Except she wants to improve the world in a concrete fashion and be engaged with it, not focus on theory. (Sorry, PhD students!)
However, she finds it difficult to maintain morale in an environment that is so obsessed with hoop jumping, and where she's heard things like "well how else can I get a middle class job and pay off my debts"... She would love to point out that 160k a year is certainly not middle class and that the debt is entirely voluntary, but finds herself biting her tongue. She did intern at an advocacy organization over the summer, but found it to be fairly disorganized and inefficient, and mostly, again generalizing wildly and from her perspective, "nice white ladies volunteering part-time." Obviously this is the most negative framing of the situation, and these are the most extreme ends of the spectrum, but it leads to a few questions:
1) What are some useful strategies or frames of mind to use when you're purposely pursuing a much less lucrative career option compared to your peers, and to maintain conviction that what you're doing is the correct choice?
2) Where's a good place to find a public service or interest community that is more focused on concrete policy and action, less ideological rhetoric?
3) Contempt is not a useful attitude to have. How can she frame her classmates' decisions in a way where she doesn't necessarily absolve them, but is able to see them as parts of a larger individual motivation?
Asking for a friend, who has a full-tuition public interest scholarship to a T30 law school. To generalize wildly, she finds her classmates unintellectual, instrumentally driven to success, and limited to defining success in financial terms, often with no clear reason as to why they are in law school other than the fact that it is a logical and lucrative career. Because she's less driven by grades than intellectual curiosity, she's really a bit of a novelty. She would be great at being in a humanities PhD program... Except she wants to improve the world in a concrete fashion and be engaged with it, not focus on theory. (Sorry, PhD students!)
However, she finds it difficult to maintain morale in an environment that is so obsessed with hoop jumping, and where she's heard things like "well how else can I get a middle class job and pay off my debts"... She would love to point out that 160k a year is certainly not middle class and that the debt is entirely voluntary, but finds herself biting her tongue. She did intern at an advocacy organization over the summer, but found it to be fairly disorganized and inefficient, and mostly, again generalizing wildly and from her perspective, "nice white ladies volunteering part-time." Obviously this is the most negative framing of the situation, and these are the most extreme ends of the spectrum, but it leads to a few questions:
1) What are some useful strategies or frames of mind to use when you're purposely pursuing a much less lucrative career option compared to your peers, and to maintain conviction that what you're doing is the correct choice?
2) Where's a good place to find a public service or interest community that is more focused on concrete policy and action, less ideological rhetoric?
3) Contempt is not a useful attitude to have. How can she frame her classmates' decisions in a way where she doesn't necessarily absolve them, but is able to see them as parts of a larger individual motivation?
1) Be in school and don't obsess so much about who is making which career choice. But also, if she's serious about work with disadvantaged groups, she may want to see this as a training ground for how to listen to people's economic struggles and goals even when you don't agree with them, because "the poor" and downtrodden for whom she will be working may also want things she doesn't agree with in the future.
3) It's really not up to her to absolve or not absolve them. She does sound like she's in the right career though.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:27 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
3) It's really not up to her to absolve or not absolve them. She does sound like she's in the right career though.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:27 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
Maybe show her this?
Lawyers With Lowest Pay Report More Happiness
Lawyers With Lowest Pay Report More Happiness
Researchers who surveyed 6,200 lawyers about their jobs and health found that the factors most frequently associated with success in the legal field, such as high income or a partner-track job at a prestigious firm, had almost zero correlation with happiness and well-being. However, lawyers in public-service jobs who made the least money, like public defenders or Legal Aid attorneys, were most likely to report being happy.posted by jaguar at 7:40 PM on September 15, 2015
Lawyers in public-service jobs also drank less alcohol than their higher-income peers. And, despite the large gap in affluence, the two groups reported about equal overall satisfaction with their lives.
In various memoirs I've read about law school students many more seem to start their degrees thinking like your friend and end up looking for corporate jobs anyway. So while it would be great if she holds onto her convictions she should also be gentle with herself and others and just be, without judging what they want to do. Even if this is really painful for her at times!
For (3), maybe think "“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle"
She doesn't know how much of their choices go back to their family choices, their social peer groups; they have made choices based on an entirely different personal history than she has done. Sure, in the scheme of things those salaries aren't "middle class" but it's pretty hard being the poorest person of your family and social group and that probably plays into their planning. There's always someone worse off and better off than each of us whether in reality or perception and there's no point in letting that be a point of contention.
When she hears them say things that they think are worthy but bother her, either walk away or say 'oh, that sounds great' and let it go (where 'let it go' can mean bitching to more like minded friends over drinks later; but genuinely letting it go is probably healthier).
I gather since she's on a full scholarship she didn't grow up in an affluent community? Treat it like an exchange opportunity to another planet. "Wow, it is fascinating to see how different other people's lives are" rather than "omg, my classmates are boring money obsessed drones".
There will be plenty of people poorer than her who think, pfff, it's a sign of your own privilege that you get to criticise others for focussing on grades and not intellectual curiosity.
Sorry, my thoughts on this are a bit rambly. Younger me can relate a bit to how she feels, older me is more understanding that ideals can drop by the wayside a bit because life is hard and youthful idealism wears away.
posted by kitten magic at 7:59 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
For (3), maybe think "“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle"
She doesn't know how much of their choices go back to their family choices, their social peer groups; they have made choices based on an entirely different personal history than she has done. Sure, in the scheme of things those salaries aren't "middle class" but it's pretty hard being the poorest person of your family and social group and that probably plays into their planning. There's always someone worse off and better off than each of us whether in reality or perception and there's no point in letting that be a point of contention.
When she hears them say things that they think are worthy but bother her, either walk away or say 'oh, that sounds great' and let it go (where 'let it go' can mean bitching to more like minded friends over drinks later; but genuinely letting it go is probably healthier).
I gather since she's on a full scholarship she didn't grow up in an affluent community? Treat it like an exchange opportunity to another planet. "Wow, it is fascinating to see how different other people's lives are" rather than "omg, my classmates are boring money obsessed drones".
There will be plenty of people poorer than her who think, pfff, it's a sign of your own privilege that you get to criticise others for focussing on grades and not intellectual curiosity.
Sorry, my thoughts on this are a bit rambly. Younger me can relate a bit to how she feels, older me is more understanding that ideals can drop by the wayside a bit because life is hard and youthful idealism wears away.
posted by kitten magic at 7:59 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
Hope that her idealism isn't crushed by the realities of the world. It probably will either way. I wanted to change the world when I went to law school, and found that the world doesn't want to be changed. There are attorneys out there who do good work and help people, but that stuff is few and far between, and the jobs don't really pay the bills much.
Government work? Corruption, politics, bureaucracy. There are government attorneys who do some good for the public, but you'll be in a perpetual political battles with the higher ups. It takes a strong stomach, and you'll be surrounded and pressured by corruption. Non profits? Many of them are really just profit generating organizations, the rest underfunded. Organizations funded by the government? They've all been gutted. Court systems and all that are pretty corrupt, too. She could always join a progressive think tank, I had a professor who did some interesting work there.
No matter what your friend is going to have to jump through those hoops and excel if she wants those good opportunities. It takes the same ambition as her money-grubbing colleagues to get lined up with a good public interest job, particularly since those can be vehicles into politics and business and are pretty lucrative in their own right.
It's sort-of a wasteland out there for wanting to do good for the world, and get paid for it on top of it. This has just been my experience at least.
posted by gehenna_lion at 8:05 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Government work? Corruption, politics, bureaucracy. There are government attorneys who do some good for the public, but you'll be in a perpetual political battles with the higher ups. It takes a strong stomach, and you'll be surrounded and pressured by corruption. Non profits? Many of them are really just profit generating organizations, the rest underfunded. Organizations funded by the government? They've all been gutted. Court systems and all that are pretty corrupt, too. She could always join a progressive think tank, I had a professor who did some interesting work there.
No matter what your friend is going to have to jump through those hoops and excel if she wants those good opportunities. It takes the same ambition as her money-grubbing colleagues to get lined up with a good public interest job, particularly since those can be vehicles into politics and business and are pretty lucrative in their own right.
It's sort-of a wasteland out there for wanting to do good for the world, and get paid for it on top of it. This has just been my experience at least.
posted by gehenna_lion at 8:05 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
It sounds like she's obsessing way too much over what other people think. And it seems it's not even what other people think of her. Just what other people think... and she disapproves.
People are different. Different attitudes, different values, different circumstances. This is the sort of thing she needs to just accept, and get on with her own goals.
Put it this way, there is no way she's going to reach her goal of performing noble public service if she will not accept that most people don't need her service, don't want her service, don't care what she does. Because she has a full tuition scholarship, she has the privilege to not be obsessed with grades or financial success in the same way as peers . Good on her! That's a great place to be. But it's really none of her business if her classmates are simply driven to grab the brass ring.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:22 PM on September 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
People are different. Different attitudes, different values, different circumstances. This is the sort of thing she needs to just accept, and get on with her own goals.
Put it this way, there is no way she's going to reach her goal of performing noble public service if she will not accept that most people don't need her service, don't want her service, don't care what she does. Because she has a full tuition scholarship, she has the privilege to not be obsessed with grades or financial success in the same way as peers . Good on her! That's a great place to be. But it's really none of her business if her classmates are simply driven to grab the brass ring.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:22 PM on September 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
law school drop out & ethicist here.
1. My lawyer friends who are happiest are those who work in public service or those who saved up enough money to leave law and go buy a farm or open a coffee shop. The former can only do it comfortably if they married rich, like marrying some other law school drop out who turned out to be an IT genius or award winning writer. These are all real life examples. Out of my class, I only know a handful who did the whole top tier go getter thing. They're a particular kind of guy.
2. I agree with some of the others that maybe your friend is too fixated on what others do/don't do and maybe this is much more about her than anyone else. If maybe she has a thing about money, she should read Peter Singer's stuff on effective giving. The best way to give may not be to earnestly slave away at some disorganised poorly funded non profit advocacy org for the worst off people in your town. It may be that she can help many many more people in more meaningful ways by working her tail off and landing one of those jobs she resents others for taking and donating her money and pro bono hours to an efficiently run charity that's already all set up with her firm.
posted by stellathon at 8:38 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
1. My lawyer friends who are happiest are those who work in public service or those who saved up enough money to leave law and go buy a farm or open a coffee shop. The former can only do it comfortably if they married rich, like marrying some other law school drop out who turned out to be an IT genius or award winning writer. These are all real life examples. Out of my class, I only know a handful who did the whole top tier go getter thing. They're a particular kind of guy.
2. I agree with some of the others that maybe your friend is too fixated on what others do/don't do and maybe this is much more about her than anyone else. If maybe she has a thing about money, she should read Peter Singer's stuff on effective giving. The best way to give may not be to earnestly slave away at some disorganised poorly funded non profit advocacy org for the worst off people in your town. It may be that she can help many many more people in more meaningful ways by working her tail off and landing one of those jobs she resents others for taking and donating her money and pro bono hours to an efficiently run charity that's already all set up with her firm.
posted by stellathon at 8:38 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Many of the lawyers whose company I enjoy have mentioned at one time or another that they felt similarly in law school. (I have a lot of family in and have worked as admin staff in public service/nonprofit law)
posted by jeweled accumulation at 8:49 PM on September 15, 2015
posted by jeweled accumulation at 8:49 PM on September 15, 2015
I went to law school. For (1), forget them. They are putting on the golden handcuffs, and they will regret everything. On the other hand, and I want to be kind about this, your friend should come to terms with law school being a trade school. For (2), consider working with victims of domestic violence, children, or elders. DV victims always need lawyers, and it's very concrete. Children need help as foster children, as victims of crime, and as students, just to name a few areas. And elder fraud is widespread and difficult to prosecute. (3) loops back to (1). Everyone makes their own way. Lawyers are often difficult people. I didn't like law school at all, but I enjoy my work now. (I work in child protection, as a lawyer.) It's only 3 years. Wait them out.
posted by kerf at 9:34 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by kerf at 9:34 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is something I struggle to understand, although I'm not a lawyer (or philosopher).
Imagine someone who helps orphan babies for free in his spare time. Unquestionably philanthropic, right?
Now imagine a surgeon who fixes up orphan babies and gets paid 500K. Philanthropic? Most people would say not really, she's just doing a job.
Now imagine someone who could get paid 60K working at an office, but instead gets paid 50K to help orphan babies. Is he philanthropic? More so than someone who makes 60K, and donates 10K to help orphan babies?
Now how about someone who helps orphan babies and gets paid 50K. But there's an almost infinite supply of people who want to do that work for 50K, so if she didn't exist or had chosen a different career path, absolutely nothing would be different. Is she philanthropic?
The point is that defining good for the world is an extremely slippery business, and if you really think about it, a lot of people who we venerate as doing amazing public service are probably not adding a whole lot of marginal value to the universe, and other people who are doing jobs no one else wants to do probably are.
posted by miyabo at 9:45 PM on September 15, 2015 [16 favorites]
Imagine someone who helps orphan babies for free in his spare time. Unquestionably philanthropic, right?
Now imagine a surgeon who fixes up orphan babies and gets paid 500K. Philanthropic? Most people would say not really, she's just doing a job.
Now imagine someone who could get paid 60K working at an office, but instead gets paid 50K to help orphan babies. Is he philanthropic? More so than someone who makes 60K, and donates 10K to help orphan babies?
Now how about someone who helps orphan babies and gets paid 50K. But there's an almost infinite supply of people who want to do that work for 50K, so if she didn't exist or had chosen a different career path, absolutely nothing would be different. Is she philanthropic?
The point is that defining good for the world is an extremely slippery business, and if you really think about it, a lot of people who we venerate as doing amazing public service are probably not adding a whole lot of marginal value to the universe, and other people who are doing jobs no one else wants to do probably are.
posted by miyabo at 9:45 PM on September 15, 2015 [16 favorites]
Lawyer, former corporate and former public service at local, state and national levels and now corporate again.
1) What are some useful strategies or frames of mind to use when you're purposely pursuing a much less lucrative career option compared to your peers, and to maintain conviction that what you're doing is the correct choice?
There is no 'correct choice'. It's not a game - it's just life. She can do what she wants, they can do what they want. Why does she care how much money they may earn in future? Their are trading their time and convictions for cash - there is no such thing as work/life balance in BigLaw and a lot of it is serving clients who are souless and objectively evil. She wants to do something emotionally satisfying and ethical. The trade off is less money.
Both are valid career choices, depending on your priorities.
3) Contempt is not a useful attitude to have. How can she frame her classmates' decisions in a way where she doesn't necessarily absolve them, but is able to see them as parts of a larger individual motivation?
She should stop worrying about the life choices of her law school acquaintances and just live her own life. Their priorities are not her priorities, and that's OK.
But what it comes down to is that rich corporations are entitled to legal representation, and someone has to give it to them, or the whole system falls apart. If she doesn't want to do that, fine, but someone still has to.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:50 PM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
1) What are some useful strategies or frames of mind to use when you're purposely pursuing a much less lucrative career option compared to your peers, and to maintain conviction that what you're doing is the correct choice?
There is no 'correct choice'. It's not a game - it's just life. She can do what she wants, they can do what they want. Why does she care how much money they may earn in future? Their are trading their time and convictions for cash - there is no such thing as work/life balance in BigLaw and a lot of it is serving clients who are souless and objectively evil. She wants to do something emotionally satisfying and ethical. The trade off is less money.
Both are valid career choices, depending on your priorities.
3) Contempt is not a useful attitude to have. How can she frame her classmates' decisions in a way where she doesn't necessarily absolve them, but is able to see them as parts of a larger individual motivation?
She should stop worrying about the life choices of her law school acquaintances and just live her own life. Their priorities are not her priorities, and that's OK.
But what it comes down to is that rich corporations are entitled to legal representation, and someone has to give it to them, or the whole system falls apart. If she doesn't want to do that, fine, but someone still has to.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:50 PM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
I speak as the former housemate of a law school grad, G. Most of the time, G also found the prevailing attitudes in her law school absurd. I think it was very grounding for her to have a venting buddy outside law school (i.e. me) whose reaction was also "Holy crap, what universe do these people come from?" She also had a handful of law school friends who were more sane, which also helped.
Now, I'm uh, overly judgmental, so I can't help much with restraining on the contempt front.
For what it's worth, she's now making moderately ridiculous buckets of money in a not-so-evil area so that she can donate all she wants to causes she cares about.
posted by ktkt at 10:15 PM on September 15, 2015
Now, I'm uh, overly judgmental, so I can't help much with restraining on the contempt front.
For what it's worth, she's now making moderately ridiculous buckets of money in a not-so-evil area so that she can donate all she wants to causes she cares about.
posted by ktkt at 10:15 PM on September 15, 2015
Find a well-run organization that isn't just "nice white ladies volunteering part-time." That's basically the answer to all of her questions. Things suck when you're surrounded by people whose values are different from yours. The more she can focus on surrounding herself with like-minded people now and planning to get even more immersed in the future, the better.
1) What are some useful strategies or frames of mind to use when you're purposely pursuing a much less lucrative career option compared to your peers, and to maintain conviction that what you're doing is the correct choice?
Finding a community of others who are similarly passionate will give her peer support. Doing meaningful work will make it feel like she's making the right choice. Avoiding situations where she has a high cost of living will keep her from deciding to "sell out."
2) Where's a good place to find a public service or interest community that is more focused on concrete policy and action, less ideological rhetoric?
I'm not sure I understand the question. The Internet? The student union? A major metropolitan area? A law school that markets itself to public interest folks in her field? Conferences? A professor interested in the same topics?
I work with nonprofits, and their strategies and effectiveness do vary (partly because people's definitions of success and effectiveness vary, and partly because some are just better than others). But there are some really good ones out there. She should learn to discern which groups she aligns with by reading websites, reading annual reports, signing up for e-alerts, and occasionally going to a conference or having an informational interview. Figure out what success means to her. Take a class or two at the public policy school to get a handle on campaign strategy.
This whole "spending a summer at a place where hapless white people work part time and spout ideological rhetoric" needs to quickly become a thing of the past. There are some amazing nonprofits, and I have the impression that some run highly competitive summer internship programs -- she should find one. And -- even if she ends up at a hapless group, she should do kickass work and build links with people at allied organizations who also do good work, to gain references and links to better jobs.
3) Contempt is not a useful attitude to have. How can she frame her classmates' decisions in a way where she doesn't necessarily absolve them, but is able to see them as parts of a larger individual motivation?
The questions of complicity and absolution are complicated ones that I used to think a lot about. But it slowly became clear: it's not my job to judge; it's my job to build a life I like.
Mainly, she should mind her own business and get moving on the project of building a future that she'll like. I know, it's hard to keep the faith when you're so isolated, but maybe try to stay connected with "the good guys" at a distance -- write articles for their magazines, do volunteer research for them, etc. I suppose transferring is out of the question? Ultimately, the best strategy is to graduate and move on.
posted by salvia at 12:11 AM on September 16, 2015
1) What are some useful strategies or frames of mind to use when you're purposely pursuing a much less lucrative career option compared to your peers, and to maintain conviction that what you're doing is the correct choice?
Finding a community of others who are similarly passionate will give her peer support. Doing meaningful work will make it feel like she's making the right choice. Avoiding situations where she has a high cost of living will keep her from deciding to "sell out."
2) Where's a good place to find a public service or interest community that is more focused on concrete policy and action, less ideological rhetoric?
I'm not sure I understand the question. The Internet? The student union? A major metropolitan area? A law school that markets itself to public interest folks in her field? Conferences? A professor interested in the same topics?
I work with nonprofits, and their strategies and effectiveness do vary (partly because people's definitions of success and effectiveness vary, and partly because some are just better than others). But there are some really good ones out there. She should learn to discern which groups she aligns with by reading websites, reading annual reports, signing up for e-alerts, and occasionally going to a conference or having an informational interview. Figure out what success means to her. Take a class or two at the public policy school to get a handle on campaign strategy.
This whole "spending a summer at a place where hapless white people work part time and spout ideological rhetoric" needs to quickly become a thing of the past. There are some amazing nonprofits, and I have the impression that some run highly competitive summer internship programs -- she should find one. And -- even if she ends up at a hapless group, she should do kickass work and build links with people at allied organizations who also do good work, to gain references and links to better jobs.
3) Contempt is not a useful attitude to have. How can she frame her classmates' decisions in a way where she doesn't necessarily absolve them, but is able to see them as parts of a larger individual motivation?
The questions of complicity and absolution are complicated ones that I used to think a lot about. But it slowly became clear: it's not my job to judge; it's my job to build a life I like.
Mainly, she should mind her own business and get moving on the project of building a future that she'll like. I know, it's hard to keep the faith when you're so isolated, but maybe try to stay connected with "the good guys" at a distance -- write articles for their magazines, do volunteer research for them, etc. I suppose transferring is out of the question? Ultimately, the best strategy is to graduate and move on.
posted by salvia at 12:11 AM on September 16, 2015
Your friend's on a full scholarship yet she's judging her peers who are stressed out about how to pay off their future debts. She doesn't have any debt so she's lucky enough to be able to choose a job based on her interests, but internally criticises her peers' focus on getting a well paid job that they probably will have to, to pay off their loans. She's even managing to cast dispersion on those people who are actually volunteering at organisations because they don't live up to her high standards of what these people should appear like. (Nice white women?!)
Your friend seems to be under the impression that she's somehow a better and more moral person than anyone else, when in actual fact, she has the complete luxury of basically being able to study and follow her interests without having to make the hard financial decisions that most people doing law will have to. I have no doubt she worked hard for her scholarship but some humility and understanding that not everyone is in her situation will go a long way.
Also consider the fact that if she's this judgemental about her peers, one can only imagine how much more judgemental she would be about these lesser beings that she will end up trying to save - frankly I'm not sure I'd want to be saved by someone like that.
I'm sorry if this came off as harsh but contempt was the right word you used here. The strategy to convince herself that she's on the right track is not to assume that everyone else isn't and that they are somehow bad people for making different choices. It's to consider herself lucky that she gets to make her choice at all, and to surround herself with like minded people. And hey, maybe get to know the other dirty money grubbing law students a bit better, there is nothing wrong with wanting to get good grades and not be saddled with a lifetime of debt. I think learning to see both sides of the argument and see the other side is the most basic fundamentals of being a lawyer, is it not?
posted by Jubey at 12:38 AM on September 16, 2015 [20 favorites]
Your friend seems to be under the impression that she's somehow a better and more moral person than anyone else, when in actual fact, she has the complete luxury of basically being able to study and follow her interests without having to make the hard financial decisions that most people doing law will have to. I have no doubt she worked hard for her scholarship but some humility and understanding that not everyone is in her situation will go a long way.
Also consider the fact that if she's this judgemental about her peers, one can only imagine how much more judgemental she would be about these lesser beings that she will end up trying to save - frankly I'm not sure I'd want to be saved by someone like that.
I'm sorry if this came off as harsh but contempt was the right word you used here. The strategy to convince herself that she's on the right track is not to assume that everyone else isn't and that they are somehow bad people for making different choices. It's to consider herself lucky that she gets to make her choice at all, and to surround herself with like minded people. And hey, maybe get to know the other dirty money grubbing law students a bit better, there is nothing wrong with wanting to get good grades and not be saddled with a lifetime of debt. I think learning to see both sides of the argument and see the other side is the most basic fundamentals of being a lawyer, is it not?
posted by Jubey at 12:38 AM on September 16, 2015 [20 favorites]
I teach philosophy, including logic, critical thinking and ethics, to poor first-generation college students. I'm sure some public interest lawyers do more good than I do. But I'm sure many don't.
This is just to say, with a humanities PhD, you don't have to do BS theory only for those in the ivory tower.
posted by persona au gratin at 1:39 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is just to say, with a humanities PhD, you don't have to do BS theory only for those in the ivory tower.
posted by persona au gratin at 1:39 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
What are some useful strategies or frames of mind to use when you're purposely pursuing a much less lucrative career option compared to your peers, and to maintain conviction that what you're doing is the correct choice?
This is your friend's problem right here. If she knows she has chosen the right path and is confident about her choices, why is she bothered by the choices that others make and which have nothing to do with her? Everywhere you look, there are people who are richer, smarter, sexier, happier, slimmer, luckier, whatever-er than we are. Or poorer, uglier, dumber, whatever-er, for that matter. If she wants to lead a fulfilling life, she needs to learn to embrace that diversity as a fact of life.
posted by Kwadeng at 2:55 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is your friend's problem right here. If she knows she has chosen the right path and is confident about her choices, why is she bothered by the choices that others make and which have nothing to do with her? Everywhere you look, there are people who are richer, smarter, sexier, happier, slimmer, luckier, whatever-er than we are. Or poorer, uglier, dumber, whatever-er, for that matter. If she wants to lead a fulfilling life, she needs to learn to embrace that diversity as a fact of life.
posted by Kwadeng at 2:55 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I agree with Jubey and am really underwhelmed with your friend's humility and compassion for her peers and fellow volunteers. Is she an L1? So she's been in classes for 3-4 weeks and hasn't managed to find anyone who shares her values or interests? If so, I'm not convinced her classmates are her problem.
posted by kat518 at 4:04 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by kat518 at 4:04 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
However, she finds it difficult to maintain morale in an environment that is so obsessed with hoop jumping, and where she's heard things like "well how else can I get a middle class job and pay off my debts"... She would love to point out that 160k a year is certainly not middle class and that the debt is entirely voluntary, but finds herself biting her tongue.
I mean, that's really easy for her to say (or think) as someone who is on a full scholarship and thus for whom student loans are an entirely theoretical concept.
Your friend sounds a little bit like she's in a "hating everything and everyone" mindset, from her classmates to the "nice white ladies" at the nonprofit. Usually, when people get into a mindset like this, it's because they feel trapped and unhappy - is your friend questioning whether or not law is right for her at all?
Honestly, a lot of people go to law school with the idea of helping people or changing the world, and then realize that law school is not necessarily the best way for them to do that (I do know many lawyers who are helping people and changing the world, but it's not the only way to do those things and it takes a very specific personality).
What are some useful strategies or frames of mind to use when you're purposely pursuing a much less lucrative career option compared to your peers, and to maintain conviction that what you're doing is the correct choice?
I didn't go to law school, but I did go through a very expensive public-service-oriented professional program, and a lot of my classmates chose private-sector work after we graduated, and are making so much more money than me now.
I've stayed on my (nonprofit advocacy) track not because it's the "correct" choice, but because it's the right choice for me. I find the work meaningful and challenging. I've investigated for-profit jobs that match my skill set and I think I would be bored. So for me, it's worth trading more money for feeling fulfilled and challenged in my work.
I used to feel much more morally obligated to do this work, like your friend. And that sense of moral obligation led to pretty serious burnout. Finally I realized: if I didn't work in these jobs, someone else would. If there's a salary involved, there will be someone to fill it. So really, there's no moral obligation. This realization has made all the difference: I've stayed in this field because it's what I want to do.
Your friend should keep an open mind. Explore lots of options. Maybe take a summer associate position at a Big Law firm (many nonprofits like seeing that on your resume anyway) to see what that's all about. Get involved with whatever social-justice-oriented groups there are at her school. And remember: the choices she makes about her career will impact her more than they will impact anyone else, so she needs to make choices that are right for her, not anyone else.
posted by lunasol at 6:00 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
I mean, that's really easy for her to say (or think) as someone who is on a full scholarship and thus for whom student loans are an entirely theoretical concept.
Your friend sounds a little bit like she's in a "hating everything and everyone" mindset, from her classmates to the "nice white ladies" at the nonprofit. Usually, when people get into a mindset like this, it's because they feel trapped and unhappy - is your friend questioning whether or not law is right for her at all?
Honestly, a lot of people go to law school with the idea of helping people or changing the world, and then realize that law school is not necessarily the best way for them to do that (I do know many lawyers who are helping people and changing the world, but it's not the only way to do those things and it takes a very specific personality).
What are some useful strategies or frames of mind to use when you're purposely pursuing a much less lucrative career option compared to your peers, and to maintain conviction that what you're doing is the correct choice?
I didn't go to law school, but I did go through a very expensive public-service-oriented professional program, and a lot of my classmates chose private-sector work after we graduated, and are making so much more money than me now.
I've stayed on my (nonprofit advocacy) track not because it's the "correct" choice, but because it's the right choice for me. I find the work meaningful and challenging. I've investigated for-profit jobs that match my skill set and I think I would be bored. So for me, it's worth trading more money for feeling fulfilled and challenged in my work.
I used to feel much more morally obligated to do this work, like your friend. And that sense of moral obligation led to pretty serious burnout. Finally I realized: if I didn't work in these jobs, someone else would. If there's a salary involved, there will be someone to fill it. So really, there's no moral obligation. This realization has made all the difference: I've stayed in this field because it's what I want to do.
Your friend should keep an open mind. Explore lots of options. Maybe take a summer associate position at a Big Law firm (many nonprofits like seeing that on your resume anyway) to see what that's all about. Get involved with whatever social-justice-oriented groups there are at her school. And remember: the choices she makes about her career will impact her more than they will impact anyone else, so she needs to make choices that are right for her, not anyone else.
posted by lunasol at 6:00 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Just to add, many many lawyers work in public interest and love it. Many lawyers who have those soul-sucking corporate jobs support the public interest lawyers with money, time and connections. If your friend wants to be successful as a public interest lawyer, she will need strong connections with her for-profit lawyer friends. The for-profit lawyer friends are the ones who will make it possible for her to do her job.
I am a public interest lawyer who is often dismayed by the profession because of the general lack of commitment to the public interest. I am frustrated by our board members who can't coax a $100 donation out of colleagues who not only make 3 times my salary but also get my entire salary as a bonus in a year. I am shocked, still sometimes, by how little other lawyers consider the role and duty of the law and lawyers in how just our society is, can, or should be.
BUT I know that everyone takes a different path in life. As noted above, the people I know in public interest on the highest moral horses are the most fatigued. I also know that my path requires the literal support of people who have a different professional priority. And people who choose to donate their money or time, and people who serve on nonprofit boards, or people who just make the right interpersonal connections between their clients and their public interest friends are no less serving the public interest than those who take on the pay cut, shitty tech support and difficult cases of working in public interest law.
posted by crush-onastick at 6:18 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am a public interest lawyer who is often dismayed by the profession because of the general lack of commitment to the public interest. I am frustrated by our board members who can't coax a $100 donation out of colleagues who not only make 3 times my salary but also get my entire salary as a bonus in a year. I am shocked, still sometimes, by how little other lawyers consider the role and duty of the law and lawyers in how just our society is, can, or should be.
BUT I know that everyone takes a different path in life. As noted above, the people I know in public interest on the highest moral horses are the most fatigued. I also know that my path requires the literal support of people who have a different professional priority. And people who choose to donate their money or time, and people who serve on nonprofit boards, or people who just make the right interpersonal connections between their clients and their public interest friends are no less serving the public interest than those who take on the pay cut, shitty tech support and difficult cases of working in public interest law.
posted by crush-onastick at 6:18 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Your friend will presumably be working with people in the future who are in difficult situations and who will not always be saintly in their reaction to it or in their attitudes to the rest of the world. Perhaps she could keep in mind that cultivating compassion for the difficult people or tolerance for the people whose life choices don't resonate with her is something she can start working on now.
posted by Amy NM at 6:23 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Amy NM at 6:23 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
No offense, but can she not get other friends? Why does she care what her colleagues' career goals are?
Does she feel guilty that she has a FULL TUITION scholarship while everyone else is up to their nostrils in debt? Is she taking it personally? Because their debt has nothing to do with her.
It's not like she's the lone wolf. There are attorneys in public service, government, and JAG who went to top 10 schools.
I think it's a matter of guilt on her part. She needs to understand that she is worthy of that scholarship. Are others also worthy? Probably. But she applied for it and got it. Feeling guilty won't change that.
I recommend Brene Brown's work to help her deal with her emotions.
posted by Neekee at 7:19 AM on September 16, 2015
Does she feel guilty that she has a FULL TUITION scholarship while everyone else is up to their nostrils in debt? Is she taking it personally? Because their debt has nothing to do with her.
It's not like she's the lone wolf. There are attorneys in public service, government, and JAG who went to top 10 schools.
I think it's a matter of guilt on her part. She needs to understand that she is worthy of that scholarship. Are others also worthy? Probably. But she applied for it and got it. Feeling guilty won't change that.
I recommend Brene Brown's work to help her deal with her emotions.
posted by Neekee at 7:19 AM on September 16, 2015
Chief Justice Roberts was once "just a government lawyer."
posted by SemiSalt at 7:24 AM on September 16, 2015
posted by SemiSalt at 7:24 AM on September 16, 2015
Does your friend have any friends in law school? Because it sounds like she doesn't. It's a lot tougher to hold contempt for people if you've shared a few drinks with them and become friends with them. I had a pretty wide-ranging social group in law school, from the students who wanted nothing more than to get a biglaw partnership to those who wanted to be on the supreme court to those who wanted to be public defenders. And their career goals said very little about who they were as people.
I also have a hard time imagining she's the only idealistic student at her school that wants to fight for the under-privileged and save the world while making not very much money. That probably described 10-15% of my class. As others have said, if she's just a 1L, she hasn't been in class for very long; I'd advise seeking out those other, similarly idealistic students. Many schools have legal aid clinics of one sort or another; it might be worth reaching out to those professors to start getting tied into groups at the school that frequent those clinics.
posted by craven_morhead at 7:56 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I also have a hard time imagining she's the only idealistic student at her school that wants to fight for the under-privileged and save the world while making not very much money. That probably described 10-15% of my class. As others have said, if she's just a 1L, she hasn't been in class for very long; I'd advise seeking out those other, similarly idealistic students. Many schools have legal aid clinics of one sort or another; it might be worth reaching out to those professors to start getting tied into groups at the school that frequent those clinics.
posted by craven_morhead at 7:56 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
My husband went to a T30 on a full academic scholarship. I went to a TTT on a full academic scholarship. Law school is a game, and it's a game you can win by not playing. Knowing she's going into public interest should make it a lot easier for her to make friends since her classmates aren't her competition. She doesn't need to care about OCI or moot court or law review unless she wants to because those things do not matter for all but the most selective government jobs. Many of my good friends from law school are now at big firms wearing golden handcuffs and I'm doing my government thing and we're all still friends.
To answer the questions specifically:
1) What are some useful strategies or frames of mind to use when you're purposely pursuing a much less lucrative career option compared to your peers, and to maintain conviction that what you're doing is the correct choice?
Don't care what other people are doing. I never felt pressure to go to a firm from anyone other than my Business Associations professor because I aced that class. Much of law is going to involve not caring about what other people think, especially if she's interested in government or non-profit work.
2) Where's a good place to find a public service or interest community that is more focused on concrete policy and action, less ideological rhetoric?
Uh, in the law school? There should be clinics and VITA (pro bono tax advice) and manning legal information desks. If this is for internships and not time during the school year, look at a prosecutor's office, public defender agency, or legal aid. Those attorneys are some of the most talented and committed people I know.
3) Contempt is not a useful attitude to have. How can she frame her classmates' decisions in a way where she doesn't necessarily absolve them, but is able to see them as parts of a larger individual motivation?
Why does it matter what other people want to do? Being a two-lawyer couple, we have a lot of lawyer friends, ranging from a VP at a huge bank to public defenders and everything in between. They are there because they want to be lawyers - so does she. Boom, common ground. Nobody needs absolution for wanting to be filthy rich in America. Society needs all kinds of lawyers.
posted by notjustthefish at 9:36 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
To answer the questions specifically:
1) What are some useful strategies or frames of mind to use when you're purposely pursuing a much less lucrative career option compared to your peers, and to maintain conviction that what you're doing is the correct choice?
Don't care what other people are doing. I never felt pressure to go to a firm from anyone other than my Business Associations professor because I aced that class. Much of law is going to involve not caring about what other people think, especially if she's interested in government or non-profit work.
2) Where's a good place to find a public service or interest community that is more focused on concrete policy and action, less ideological rhetoric?
Uh, in the law school? There should be clinics and VITA (pro bono tax advice) and manning legal information desks. If this is for internships and not time during the school year, look at a prosecutor's office, public defender agency, or legal aid. Those attorneys are some of the most talented and committed people I know.
3) Contempt is not a useful attitude to have. How can she frame her classmates' decisions in a way where she doesn't necessarily absolve them, but is able to see them as parts of a larger individual motivation?
Why does it matter what other people want to do? Being a two-lawyer couple, we have a lot of lawyer friends, ranging from a VP at a huge bank to public defenders and everything in between. They are there because they want to be lawyers - so does she. Boom, common ground. Nobody needs absolution for wanting to be filthy rich in America. Society needs all kinds of lawyers.
posted by notjustthefish at 9:36 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
She doesn't need to care about OCI or moot court or law review is very much not true in the non profit public interest job market in major metropolitan areas (except possibly the OCI thing. Many nonprofits don't waste their time with it because their ability to hire is quite limited). It is true, however, that she won't be in competition with her own classmates for most of these jobs, but the hiring remains insanely competitive; the jobs are rarely open to new lawyers who don't have substantial summer/clinic/clerking experience, and competitive grades. While it's a small percentage of graduates looking for those jobs, there are very few jobs available which makes it a tough market to break into.
posted by crush-onastick at 10:40 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by crush-onastick at 10:40 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
1) What are some useful strategies or frames of mind to use when you're purposely pursuing a much less lucrative career option compared to your peers, and to maintain conviction that what you're doing is the correct choice?
This describes someone wrestling with self doubts, which is not the fault of her peers. I will suggest you direct her to the emotional labor thread on the blue (linky in my profile) and encourage her to start a journal. Perhaps she has some gender based warped idea that the only way to be a good person is to take care of other people without adequate recompense. I will suggest this is an incredibly unhealthy attitude to live with.
If you have actual conviction that you are doing the right thing, it does not need shoring up. It comes with something of a thick skinned Fuck You attitude because you get tired of trying to explain to people who don't understand and it really doesn't matter if they understand or approve or whatever. She does not have actual conviction. People with actual conviction do not need techniques for hanging onto it. People who need that are basically brainwashed in some way and afraid of learning the truth because it is Verboten in the culture they come from. Time to grow up and leave behind the brainwashing.
She needs to examine this thoroughly, and this needs to happen before she has closed off any options.
3) Contempt is not a useful attitude to have. How can she frame her classmates' decisions in a way where she doesn't necessarily absolve them, but is able to see them as parts of a larger individual motivation?
As noted above, she needs to check her scholarship privilege at the door. Contempt is something privileged people feel. Also, get over her shit. Her judgey "not wanting to absolve them" smacks of Messiah Complex.
I will strongly suggest she needs therapy of some kind. I won a National Merit Scholarship and walked away from it to avoid being what you describe. I had enough of the brainwashing and sick expectations that "smart kids like you owe the world something and you are evil incarnate if you expect to profit from your intellectual gifts. Your gifts belong to the community." It sounds to me like she drank from the same well and hasn't yet figured out the water is poisoned. But she needs to and she needs to find an antidote. She needs to find a mental model that doesn't tell her, in essence, that the only way to be a good person is to martyr yourself, so if you still draw breathe, you must spend every minute of every day trying to find some way to attone for the crime of still being alive. That is not a good way to go through life.
Best of luck to her.
posted by Michele in California at 10:55 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
This describes someone wrestling with self doubts, which is not the fault of her peers. I will suggest you direct her to the emotional labor thread on the blue (linky in my profile) and encourage her to start a journal. Perhaps she has some gender based warped idea that the only way to be a good person is to take care of other people without adequate recompense. I will suggest this is an incredibly unhealthy attitude to live with.
If you have actual conviction that you are doing the right thing, it does not need shoring up. It comes with something of a thick skinned Fuck You attitude because you get tired of trying to explain to people who don't understand and it really doesn't matter if they understand or approve or whatever. She does not have actual conviction. People with actual conviction do not need techniques for hanging onto it. People who need that are basically brainwashed in some way and afraid of learning the truth because it is Verboten in the culture they come from. Time to grow up and leave behind the brainwashing.
She needs to examine this thoroughly, and this needs to happen before she has closed off any options.
3) Contempt is not a useful attitude to have. How can she frame her classmates' decisions in a way where she doesn't necessarily absolve them, but is able to see them as parts of a larger individual motivation?
As noted above, she needs to check her scholarship privilege at the door. Contempt is something privileged people feel. Also, get over her shit. Her judgey "not wanting to absolve them" smacks of Messiah Complex.
I will strongly suggest she needs therapy of some kind. I won a National Merit Scholarship and walked away from it to avoid being what you describe. I had enough of the brainwashing and sick expectations that "smart kids like you owe the world something and you are evil incarnate if you expect to profit from your intellectual gifts. Your gifts belong to the community." It sounds to me like she drank from the same well and hasn't yet figured out the water is poisoned. But she needs to and she needs to find an antidote. She needs to find a mental model that doesn't tell her, in essence, that the only way to be a good person is to martyr yourself, so if you still draw breathe, you must spend every minute of every day trying to find some way to attone for the crime of still being alive. That is not a good way to go through life.
Best of luck to her.
posted by Michele in California at 10:55 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I can answer 1), being surrounded by peers with similar interests whose lifetime earned income will well surpass mine. I get pangs of jealousy once in a while, but I can nip those at the bud once I realize that I'm just stressed out about money. Also, I've spent a long time thinking about how I'd like to spend the rest of my life, and taking a permanent pay cut was part of the answer that I developed. I find ways to make peace with it, because I gain so much more. Your friend should engage in a similar exercise.
Your friend, meanwhile, has three years to study hard and land clerkships between semesters. Then she needs to prepare for the Bar. She has absolutely zero time to be checking for other people at any point during law school, and she needs to internalize that as soon as possible through mantras or venting at a therapist or talking to a law career counselor, if those exist.
Also, regarding 3): remind her that law school is an opportunity to establish connections with powerhouses, people who you can call upon later or who may help you get where you want or need to go. She's losing opportunities to build her network, despite being in a unique position to do so. If she's really about that "uplift the poor" life? She needs to start leveraging her privilege, today, so that her ability to do good is magnified.
posted by Ashen at 1:56 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Your friend, meanwhile, has three years to study hard and land clerkships between semesters. Then she needs to prepare for the Bar. She has absolutely zero time to be checking for other people at any point during law school, and she needs to internalize that as soon as possible through mantras or venting at a therapist or talking to a law career counselor, if those exist.
Also, regarding 3): remind her that law school is an opportunity to establish connections with powerhouses, people who you can call upon later or who may help you get where you want or need to go. She's losing opportunities to build her network, despite being in a unique position to do so. If she's really about that "uplift the poor" life? She needs to start leveraging her privilege, today, so that her ability to do good is magnified.
posted by Ashen at 1:56 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by jayder at 7:26 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]