Question about rock climbing etiquette
September 12, 2015 8:07 AM Subscribe
More details inside, but at what point is it considered gauche to want to top rope the first time you climb a route.
I have been climbing for over a year but have just started climbing outdoors within the lastcouple of months. The last two weeks, I've been able to send my first 10a and this week my first 10b. (I told you I was just starting). Now, my boyfriend/ coach encouraged me to try a 10c. Now, the last two routes, he let me top rope the first go through to get a feel for the route and the holds. And I expected that he would allow me to do this again. However, he told me I had to lead. I tried to do so but inexperience and fear caused me to have a pretty big blowup at him. I have already acknowledged that that behavior was inappropriate, but I told him that I would have felt more comfortable if I had been allowed to top rope first. He told me that no one does that. No one allows that. I would never find another coach or partner who would allow me to do that. I should quit climbing because I only want "experience" not real climbing. I would never be a real climber. Now, I have only ever climbing in Korea where they attack projects pretty single mindedly and push themselves really hard. And I understand why in this climate, he believes that. But my question is, is that more generally true for the international climbing community? Am I being unreasonable? Would, if I moved back to the states, really have difficulty finding partners who would let me top rope the first time through? Am I an abject failure as a climber because I am willing to give up my chance for an onsight?
I have been climbing for over a year but have just started climbing outdoors within the lastcouple of months. The last two weeks, I've been able to send my first 10a and this week my first 10b. (I told you I was just starting). Now, my boyfriend/ coach encouraged me to try a 10c. Now, the last two routes, he let me top rope the first go through to get a feel for the route and the holds. And I expected that he would allow me to do this again. However, he told me I had to lead. I tried to do so but inexperience and fear caused me to have a pretty big blowup at him. I have already acknowledged that that behavior was inappropriate, but I told him that I would have felt more comfortable if I had been allowed to top rope first. He told me that no one does that. No one allows that. I would never find another coach or partner who would allow me to do that. I should quit climbing because I only want "experience" not real climbing. I would never be a real climber. Now, I have only ever climbing in Korea where they attack projects pretty single mindedly and push themselves really hard. And I understand why in this climate, he believes that. But my question is, is that more generally true for the international climbing community? Am I being unreasonable? Would, if I moved back to the states, really have difficulty finding partners who would let me top rope the first time through? Am I an abject failure as a climber because I am willing to give up my chance for an onsight?
Best answer: He told me that no one does that.
My primary climbing partner and I have been climbing for a bit over two years, and we sometimes do that. So there's one point against "no one does that."
No one allows that.
And that's just bullshit. There are very few "rules" in recreational rock climbing. If you want to top rope first, if you want to get a ton of beta (i.e. information about how to climb a route), if you want to watch other people, if you want to take a bunch of rests, if you want to cheat and grab a hold on a different route to make your life easier, whatever. You can set your own goals, whether that's to lead climb everything with no prior knowledge or to goof-off on top rope. As long as you're being safe, the most important thing is that you enjoy it. It's supposed to be fun.
I would never find another coach or partner who would allow me to do that.
Patently false. If my climbing partner wanted to top-rope a route instead of lead it I wouldn't care in the slightest, and vice versa.
I should quit climbing because I only want "experience" not real climbing. I would never be a real climber
No True Rockclimber, huh? Ask him why he does lead climbing instead of trad climbing. After all, if you're not bringing up your own protection then it's not "real climbing." You're still just following somebody else's route.
Am I an abject failure as a climber because I am willing to give up my chance for an onsight?
Absolutely not. And frankly your boyfriend is being a dick about it. And an idiot. He's pushing away a partner that enjoys the same activity he does, and he's doing it for stupid reasons.
posted by jedicus at 8:24 AM on September 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
My primary climbing partner and I have been climbing for a bit over two years, and we sometimes do that. So there's one point against "no one does that."
No one allows that.
And that's just bullshit. There are very few "rules" in recreational rock climbing. If you want to top rope first, if you want to get a ton of beta (i.e. information about how to climb a route), if you want to watch other people, if you want to take a bunch of rests, if you want to cheat and grab a hold on a different route to make your life easier, whatever. You can set your own goals, whether that's to lead climb everything with no prior knowledge or to goof-off on top rope. As long as you're being safe, the most important thing is that you enjoy it. It's supposed to be fun.
I would never find another coach or partner who would allow me to do that.
Patently false. If my climbing partner wanted to top-rope a route instead of lead it I wouldn't care in the slightest, and vice versa.
I should quit climbing because I only want "experience" not real climbing. I would never be a real climber
No True Rockclimber, huh? Ask him why he does lead climbing instead of trad climbing. After all, if you're not bringing up your own protection then it's not "real climbing." You're still just following somebody else's route.
Am I an abject failure as a climber because I am willing to give up my chance for an onsight?
Absolutely not. And frankly your boyfriend is being a dick about it. And an idiot. He's pushing away a partner that enjoys the same activity he does, and he's doing it for stupid reasons.
posted by jedicus at 8:24 AM on September 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
Best answer: First, I want to take a second to congratulate you for knowing your comfort levels and for standing up for your right to be comfortable. You deserve to have a good time climbing and you first and foremost, absolutely deserve to be and feel safe.
or me (and many others) Rock climbing is concerned with three things.
Safety
Having fun
Building Competence and Confidence
I would go so far as to argue that they be consistently ordered in this way. Having a good time comes before getting awesome/impressing other people/whatever. I love to climb but I happily "cheat" if it leads to me and others around me having a better time. I don't hang on the wall for twenty minutes looking the the next hold on the route, I grab a hold that will help me get to the top. Nobody is keeping score.
Do you know what falling off a rock face does to the good time of everyone around? Thankfully I can't tell you this from experience, but it puts a bummer on the day to see someone grievously injured. I know you're using all the safety equipment and I know yours is tested regularly, and I know your belay is never every taking their eyes off you, and I know your communication is flawless and confident and never ever misunderstood. (Oh wait. I don't know those things! Rock climbing danger is rarely about one safety thing failing. It's about two or three things that go wrong at exactly the wrong times. This is why your brain wants to learn the route with extra safety in place. In case your brain is one of the safety tools that fails!)
Dick waving doesn't ever belong on a rock face of any sort, height, or difficulty. Moving beyond your skill level more quickly than you feel competent to do so is not necessary, and it is dangerous.
There doesn't need to be any keeping up with the Joneses. Especially in the case of your safety and your feeling safe. Sure, feeling safe and being safe are not the same thing (Lots of good research about risk, but we don't need to delve into that here) but feeling safe is really important.
Your boyfriend was asking you to feel unsafe. He was dismissing your concerns and belittling you. He was making unfair comparisons ("nobody") He was making threats. ("You will never," was meant to spur you to action, and all of those future oriented statements were threats.)
He was not telling you any objective truths
You might find climbers who share your boyfriends belief. Don't climb with them. There are plenty of other climbers who respect your safety as much as you do.
You were 100% right to feel the way you felt, and to make the choice you made.
And frankly, I think you were very brave to not climb in the face of so much invective. Many many people would say "I guess my judgment isn't that great, he's been doing this a long time. I'll follow his instructions." And this decision might work in situations where there's less at stake.
posted by bilabial at 8:37 AM on September 12, 2015 [18 favorites]
or me (and many others) Rock climbing is concerned with three things.
Safety
Having fun
Building Competence and Confidence
I would go so far as to argue that they be consistently ordered in this way. Having a good time comes before getting awesome/impressing other people/whatever. I love to climb but I happily "cheat" if it leads to me and others around me having a better time. I don't hang on the wall for twenty minutes looking the the next hold on the route, I grab a hold that will help me get to the top. Nobody is keeping score.
Do you know what falling off a rock face does to the good time of everyone around? Thankfully I can't tell you this from experience, but it puts a bummer on the day to see someone grievously injured. I know you're using all the safety equipment and I know yours is tested regularly, and I know your belay is never every taking their eyes off you, and I know your communication is flawless and confident and never ever misunderstood. (Oh wait. I don't know those things! Rock climbing danger is rarely about one safety thing failing. It's about two or three things that go wrong at exactly the wrong times. This is why your brain wants to learn the route with extra safety in place. In case your brain is one of the safety tools that fails!)
Dick waving doesn't ever belong on a rock face of any sort, height, or difficulty. Moving beyond your skill level more quickly than you feel competent to do so is not necessary, and it is dangerous.
There doesn't need to be any keeping up with the Joneses. Especially in the case of your safety and your feeling safe. Sure, feeling safe and being safe are not the same thing (Lots of good research about risk, but we don't need to delve into that here) but feeling safe is really important.
Your boyfriend was asking you to feel unsafe. He was dismissing your concerns and belittling you. He was making unfair comparisons ("nobody") He was making threats. ("You will never," was meant to spur you to action, and all of those future oriented statements were threats.)
He was not telling you any objective truths
You might find climbers who share your boyfriends belief. Don't climb with them. There are plenty of other climbers who respect your safety as much as you do.
You were 100% right to feel the way you felt, and to make the choice you made.
And frankly, I think you were very brave to not climb in the face of so much invective. Many many people would say "I guess my judgment isn't that great, he's been doing this a long time. I'll follow his instructions." And this decision might work in situations where there's less at stake.
posted by bilabial at 8:37 AM on September 12, 2015 [18 favorites]
Best answer: No, there's no etiquette issue here. He's pulling that straight out of his ass.
I'm trying real hard to think of a more dickish thing a "boyfriend/coach" could do, and I'm failing. This is like putting someone on skis for the first time and insisting on going down a black diamond run because that's what "real" skiers do.
Fuck this clown.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 8:38 AM on September 12, 2015 [16 favorites]
I'm trying real hard to think of a more dickish thing a "boyfriend/coach" could do, and I'm failing. This is like putting someone on skis for the first time and insisting on going down a black diamond run because that's what "real" skiers do.
Fuck this clown.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 8:38 AM on September 12, 2015 [16 favorites]
Best answer: Climbing culture is extremely regional, and different behavior will be more or less acceptable in different places. That said, it's pretty universal that the person climbing is in charge. If you don't feel comfortable doing something, don't let someone pressure you into doing it. This goes double when leading. Personally, I would top-rope a climb probably 2 grades higher than I would lead.
I spent last weekend climbing outdoors at Peterskill, and was only top roping all weekend. It's expected that most people will top-rope there, as there are easy walkups to the top of cliff, and great places to set anchors. Did I not "really" climb last weekend? While some people might say that you haven't "really" climbed something until you've done it on lead, that is not my goal. My goal is to enjoy myself safely. Pushing myself on top rope (especially indoors) feels safe. Pushing myself on lead (especially trad) does not feel safe. Maybe some day it will, but not today.
When I asked a friend how he built up expertise in climbing, he said that he met people at the cliff and volunteered to second for them. Since a lot of people wanted to lead, they were thrilled to have (and teach) partners who wanted to always follow and clean for them. He spent that time learning, building strength, familiarity, and confidence. No one would say he's not a real climber.
In terms of competitive, and elite-level climbing, people might say routes are done on lead. Top rope might be considered practice and not "really doing it". I don't see that applying to my every day life, and I don't think it applies to you either.
posted by Phredward at 8:41 AM on September 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
I spent last weekend climbing outdoors at Peterskill, and was only top roping all weekend. It's expected that most people will top-rope there, as there are easy walkups to the top of cliff, and great places to set anchors. Did I not "really" climb last weekend? While some people might say that you haven't "really" climbed something until you've done it on lead, that is not my goal. My goal is to enjoy myself safely. Pushing myself on top rope (especially indoors) feels safe. Pushing myself on lead (especially trad) does not feel safe. Maybe some day it will, but not today.
When I asked a friend how he built up expertise in climbing, he said that he met people at the cliff and volunteered to second for them. Since a lot of people wanted to lead, they were thrilled to have (and teach) partners who wanted to always follow and clean for them. He spent that time learning, building strength, familiarity, and confidence. No one would say he's not a real climber.
In terms of competitive, and elite-level climbing, people might say routes are done on lead. Top rope might be considered practice and not "really doing it". I don't see that applying to my every day life, and I don't think it applies to you either.
posted by Phredward at 8:41 AM on September 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Your boyfriend is being a jerk and he shouldn't be your "coach". Climb for fun.
I understand why he is probably frustrated that he has to lead climb to set your route every time because that gets old if its not a grade you are personally climbing. I work with autistic teenagers that are learning to climb and for whatever reason most of them struggle with leading so I set. all. the. routes. At a certain point its feels as though they should be able to lead their own stuff or climb something they can. But I'm staff, not their significant other.
When I was learning how to climb outside I was also scared. Like you, I learned by climbing high 10's/low 11's in the gym. When I transitioned outside I climbed a ton of high 8's/low 9's until I felt comfortable being outside. Try that and get new friends to climb with.
posted by Marinara at 9:10 AM on September 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
I understand why he is probably frustrated that he has to lead climb to set your route every time because that gets old if its not a grade you are personally climbing. I work with autistic teenagers that are learning to climb and for whatever reason most of them struggle with leading so I set. all. the. routes. At a certain point its feels as though they should be able to lead their own stuff or climb something they can. But I'm staff, not their significant other.
When I was learning how to climb outside I was also scared. Like you, I learned by climbing high 10's/low 11's in the gym. When I transitioned outside I climbed a ton of high 8's/low 9's until I felt comfortable being outside. Try that and get new friends to climb with.
posted by Marinara at 9:10 AM on September 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
This doesn't have anything to actually do with climbing. It could also be all about running or cake baking or scuba diving or deciding where to get dinner.*
When in a supposedly caring relationship your significant other gets all pissy and says that you:
* should quit something you enjoy
* you will never be a real _____,
that's SO FAR from being a sympathetic or even NICE person, it kind of staggers the mind. What a crappy way to talk to your partner. And the fact that you're here asking if he's right, to me, indicates that you may want to slowly extricate yourself from this guy.
When you're second-guessing your instinct and someone's being aggressive toward you, you should consider getting out of that relationship.
*The etiquette in this question has nothing to do with climbing and everything to do with your boyfriend's behavior.
posted by kinetic at 9:22 AM on September 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
When in a supposedly caring relationship your significant other gets all pissy and says that you:
* should quit something you enjoy
* you will never be a real _____,
that's SO FAR from being a sympathetic or even NICE person, it kind of staggers the mind. What a crappy way to talk to your partner. And the fact that you're here asking if he's right, to me, indicates that you may want to slowly extricate yourself from this guy.
When you're second-guessing your instinct and someone's being aggressive toward you, you should consider getting out of that relationship.
*The etiquette in this question has nothing to do with climbing and everything to do with your boyfriend's behavior.
posted by kinetic at 9:22 AM on September 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
I can't comment on climbing etiquette, but this "you can't do activity X like that, because it's not REAL activity X" is bullshit, like saying you can't ride a bike because you want to ride a hybrid instead of a road bike because that's not a REAL bike, or you can't play video games if you want to play Just Dance instead of Dark Souls because that's not a REAL videogame. It's a silly, elitist, and often sexist way to view things.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:30 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:30 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Boyfriend/coach" is a horrible combination. It's not as bad as boyfriend/boss, but it's a similar emotional minefield for both parties.
I wouldn't worry if your blow-up was inappropriate, or if you're boyfriend us being a dick. I would say, find another coach if you want to continue, and climb with you're boyfriend if he's willing to climb at your level.
posted by kanewai at 9:45 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't worry if your blow-up was inappropriate, or if you're boyfriend us being a dick. I would say, find another coach if you want to continue, and climb with you're boyfriend if he's willing to climb at your level.
posted by kanewai at 9:45 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: never gauche. top-rope away. Putting a bolt in every 4 feet on a 5.8 freeway? THAT's shitty form.
posted by j_curiouser at 9:57 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 9:57 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Everyone already covered it, but I'll add to the chorus: the person with extremely bad etiquette here is him, not you.
posted by Dilligas at 10:13 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Dilligas at 10:13 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: He told me that no one does that. Wrong. No one allows that. Wrong. I would never find another coach or partner who would allow me to do that. Wrong Wrong Wrong. I should quit climbing because I only want "experience" not real climbing. I would never be a real climber. Come on, now he's just being an ass.
I've been climbing for 20 years in the U.S., and never heard such nonsense. Possibly there are regional differences, but I find it hard to believe NO ONE in Korea does this. Especially in larger groups, with mixed levels? All the time. If it's just my husband and me, we try to pick a place with a mix of levels, so he doesn't have to set ALL my climbs for me. But I might follow all his warm up climbs, in between leading some easier ones. And if I don't think I can finish a top rope behind him, I might not try it, so he doesn't have to climb it a second time to clean it too. But you know what? Once I went on a trip with some girl friends, and I led every single climb, and then went back and cleaned them as well, because no one else was comfortable. But we had a fantastic time, because Girl Power!!!
And btw, 10c is NOT a beginner lead. You should lead 9s until you're comfortable moving up. Good god, I hope that wasn't your first outdoor lead. You should have no problem finding climbing partners if you come back to the U.S., at whatever level. And lastly, just climb with your boyfriend for fun, if you really think you need a coach, find someone else. That almost never ends well. My husband and I can only play volleyball together because we have a rule: he is Not Allowed To Give Advice.
posted by lemonade at 10:30 AM on September 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
I've been climbing for 20 years in the U.S., and never heard such nonsense. Possibly there are regional differences, but I find it hard to believe NO ONE in Korea does this. Especially in larger groups, with mixed levels? All the time. If it's just my husband and me, we try to pick a place with a mix of levels, so he doesn't have to set ALL my climbs for me. But I might follow all his warm up climbs, in between leading some easier ones. And if I don't think I can finish a top rope behind him, I might not try it, so he doesn't have to climb it a second time to clean it too. But you know what? Once I went on a trip with some girl friends, and I led every single climb, and then went back and cleaned them as well, because no one else was comfortable. But we had a fantastic time, because Girl Power!!!
And btw, 10c is NOT a beginner lead. You should lead 9s until you're comfortable moving up. Good god, I hope that wasn't your first outdoor lead. You should have no problem finding climbing partners if you come back to the U.S., at whatever level. And lastly, just climb with your boyfriend for fun, if you really think you need a coach, find someone else. That almost never ends well. My husband and I can only play volleyball together because we have a rule: he is Not Allowed To Give Advice.
posted by lemonade at 10:30 AM on September 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I've been climbing for 20 years. Seen this too frequently. Your boyfriend's behavior was, as you correctly noted, utterly inappropriate.
Please do find some supportive partners. You'll know them when you find them, it will feel good and you won't wonder and Ask Mefi about them.
Let your boyfriend go climbing with .... someone who will set him straight.
posted by Dashy at 10:39 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Please do find some supportive partners. You'll know them when you find them, it will feel good and you won't wonder and Ask Mefi about them.
Let your boyfriend go climbing with .... someone who will set him straight.
posted by Dashy at 10:39 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: The only etiquette/ethics stuff is how you treat other climbers and /or the rock/environment. Professional climbers will regularly rehearse moves on top rope before trying to send from the ground up.
Anyways, the only thing that matters is how you are feeling - your real and perceived safety is key. Having a boyfriend or girlfriend as a coach often doesn't work well, maybe try to find some other people to climb with.
(Have climbed for more than twenty years, taught climbing for 15 years All over the western U.S.)
posted by fieldtrip at 10:45 AM on September 12, 2015
Anyways, the only thing that matters is how you are feeling - your real and perceived safety is key. Having a boyfriend or girlfriend as a coach often doesn't work well, maybe try to find some other people to climb with.
(Have climbed for more than twenty years, taught climbing for 15 years All over the western U.S.)
posted by fieldtrip at 10:45 AM on September 12, 2015
Best answer: When I climbed, the more experienced person would typically lead the route. If you're a good belayer and get a partner who is better than you and likes to lead, it seems totally reasonable that you could top rope much of the time. Or, you can find walls where everyone top ropes because the top is so accessible. Lead climbing is fun, so don't utterly cheat yourself out of it forever, but it's better to do it on routes you feel are not right at the top of what you can climb. You're a beginner, so it makes complete sense you'd want to ease into it.
posted by salvia at 10:50 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by salvia at 10:50 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: My kids and I only top rope at an outdoor climbing wall because we are learning and that is what we are comfortable with. I guess that makes us not really climbers. :-) Ha.
Every climber we have met has been nothing less than encouraging and supportive, giving us gear advice and technical advice.
You BF was being a jerk.
Climbing can be a passion. It can be a hobby. It can be a recreation activity. And all of those are equally valid. Just because I only ride my bike to the library or to get ice cream does not mean I'm not really riding my bike. :-)
Pick the level of engagement you enjoy in an activity and go with it.
posted by LittleMy at 11:13 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Every climber we have met has been nothing less than encouraging and supportive, giving us gear advice and technical advice.
You BF was being a jerk.
Climbing can be a passion. It can be a hobby. It can be a recreation activity. And all of those are equally valid. Just because I only ride my bike to the library or to get ice cream does not mean I'm not really riding my bike. :-)
Pick the level of engagement you enjoy in an activity and go with it.
posted by LittleMy at 11:13 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Yeah, I'll add yet another voice to the chorus of "your boyfriend was being a jerk" voices.
There is nothing wrong with top-roping. It's just a different way to climb. If you want to go your entire life top-roping every climb out there, have a blast. Are you having fun? Great. Don't listen to people that are telling you you're doing it wrong.
I mean, I think that leading is fun. But that's me. And I would never force someone to lead something that they're not comfortable with. Ever.
posted by vernondalhart at 11:36 AM on September 12, 2015
There is nothing wrong with top-roping. It's just a different way to climb. If you want to go your entire life top-roping every climb out there, have a blast. Are you having fun? Great. Don't listen to people that are telling you you're doing it wrong.
I mean, I think that leading is fun. But that's me. And I would never force someone to lead something that they're not comfortable with. Ever.
posted by vernondalhart at 11:36 AM on September 12, 2015
Best answer: You won't continue to climb if you feel unsafe. Your top priority as a beginner to build your skills and confidence. You can top rope forever if you want to do so - it doesn't mean you aren't improving.
Boyfriend was totally out of line here. He selected some seriously poisoned language: that you should quit climbing and you're not a real climber. That is some exquisitely crafted bullshit right there - you are a real climber because you climb. Maybe you are a beginner, but everyone was a beginner once.
I would find other people to climb with because climbing makes him act like a jerk.
posted by 26.2 at 11:40 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
Boyfriend was totally out of line here. He selected some seriously poisoned language: that you should quit climbing and you're not a real climber. That is some exquisitely crafted bullshit right there - you are a real climber because you climb. Maybe you are a beginner, but everyone was a beginner once.
I would find other people to climb with because climbing makes him act like a jerk.
posted by 26.2 at 11:40 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
OK, I know nothing about climbing, but I do know something about people of quality, and it is this: People of quality care about your safety and comfort. Someone who wants you to pretend you don't feel unsafe and uncomfortable for the sake of their convenience is not a person of quality, and may not deserve the gift of your company.
Nobody can keep you safe but you. Honoring your commitment to your own confidence in your skills in the face of criticism from someone whose approval you care about is one of the very hardest things you can do, but it's vitally important, particularly in an activity where the risk of injury is high. And while I'm completely ignorant of the actual culture of climbing, I would be astounded if it endorsed regularly overriding your own sense of what you were comfortable with in order to keep the peace and impress other people.
posted by KathrynT at 11:55 AM on September 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
Nobody can keep you safe but you. Honoring your commitment to your own confidence in your skills in the face of criticism from someone whose approval you care about is one of the very hardest things you can do, but it's vitally important, particularly in an activity where the risk of injury is high. And while I'm completely ignorant of the actual culture of climbing, I would be astounded if it endorsed regularly overriding your own sense of what you were comfortable with in order to keep the peace and impress other people.
posted by KathrynT at 11:55 AM on September 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
There are plenty of people who consider themselves 'real' climbers who never send 10.a's, or who never climb outside, or who only enjoy top-roping. There isn't a 'must be this hardcore to play' rule. If you are being safe and having fun while climbing, you are a successful climber. I've led 10.b's and c's before but just this morning a 5.9 slab route kicked my ass- on top-rope no less! I had a blast and came home happy and dirty and not a single one of my climbing companions was anything less than satisfied with our day. Keep climbing, keep having fun, find what makes it worth it for you!
posted by Otis the Lion at 4:26 PM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Otis the Lion at 4:26 PM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also- you are awesome if you are leading 5.10s a few months after starting to climb outside. That's not something everyone can do! You are freaking strong and kick-ass.
posted by Otis the Lion at 4:28 PM on September 12, 2015
posted by Otis the Lion at 4:28 PM on September 12, 2015
I considered myself a climber for a number of years, and I only ever top roped. At no point did anyone at the gym or on the walls ever suggest that any of my climbing group were not real climbers, and one lady did 99% of the leading when we were outdoors - everyone else top roped the routes she set. I went to the gym twice a week while I was climbing, half of it was bolted for leading, and I think I saw *maybe* a dozen lead runs in that whole time. Most of the people (even the people who were there every night and who probably primarily identify as "climbers") were bouldering or top roping.
Did you pull yourself up walls or rock faces under your own power for fun? Congratulations -- you are climbing those suckers, and are, by definition, a climber. Why does it matter how much protection you used? Heck, if you follow your boyfriend's argument to its logical conclusion, only free solo-ers who send every route on sight are "real" climbers.
posted by natabat at 9:19 PM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Did you pull yourself up walls or rock faces under your own power for fun? Congratulations -- you are climbing those suckers, and are, by definition, a climber. Why does it matter how much protection you used? Heck, if you follow your boyfriend's argument to its logical conclusion, only free solo-ers who send every route on sight are "real" climbers.
posted by natabat at 9:19 PM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've been climbing for 8 years, but here's the catch: I've only ever top-roped. I heard from someone once that "you're not really climbing unless you lead." According to this person, I have never climbed. I don't lead because I climb so inconsistently. I've accepted the fact that top-roping is my thing, and I have a blast, and my friends are happy to lead the climbs I want to do as a warm up.
A side note: I take far better instruction for climbing from anyone who is not my husband. I pout and roll my eyes when he gives me helpful suggestions, and eagerly put the same advice in place if anyone else does. Your boyfriend, for what it's worth, is being incredibly unsupportive, and is likely to drive you straight out of the sport with his attitude.
posted by chronic sublime at 3:26 AM on September 13, 2015
A side note: I take far better instruction for climbing from anyone who is not my husband. I pout and roll my eyes when he gives me helpful suggestions, and eagerly put the same advice in place if anyone else does. Your boyfriend, for what it's worth, is being incredibly unsupportive, and is likely to drive you straight out of the sport with his attitude.
posted by chronic sublime at 3:26 AM on September 13, 2015
at what point is it considered gauche to want to top rope the first time you climb a route
On a well-protected route within your abilities, prior top-rope rehearsal is poor style. Sorry.
Which is not at all to say that it's never done. Hard trad routes with poor gear are frequently dialed in on top-rope (check out some nerve wracking headpointing videos). Tommy Caldwell and Kevin Jorgenson TR'ed the hell out of some sections of the Dawn Wall before their big push to free it. And this thread is proof-positive that plenty of recreational climbers do it every day.
So the question then is of style. Caldwell will tell you himself that if someone can send the Dawn Wall without working it on TR, then that ascent would be in better style than his. If you told me you lead, I'd be fairly impressed, but not so much if you'd top-roped it a few times beforehand.
Am I an abject failure as a climber because I am willing to give up my chance for an onsight?
Abject failure is harsh, but I think you are depriving yourself of one of the most rewarding aspects of climbing. I really enjoy walking out to cliff, looking up at a proud line and saying, "hey bud, let's party." Again on a reasonably well-protected route within your abilities, it's really fairly safe to tie in and go for it. And fun as hell.
Ultimately fun is what it's about. But don't get stuck in your comfort zone. Always be pushing the fun envelope. Don't chip, don't grade, don't whine. Just pull down.
That's my two cents'. It's a splitter day here in Tennessee, I'm on my way out the door to go bouldering.
Also, your boyfriend is definitely a jerkface.
posted by lost_cause at 9:15 AM on September 13, 2015
On a well-protected route within your abilities, prior top-rope rehearsal is poor style. Sorry.
Which is not at all to say that it's never done. Hard trad routes with poor gear are frequently dialed in on top-rope (check out some nerve wracking headpointing videos). Tommy Caldwell and Kevin Jorgenson TR'ed the hell out of some sections of the Dawn Wall before their big push to free it. And this thread is proof-positive that plenty of recreational climbers do it every day.
So the question then is of style. Caldwell will tell you himself that if someone can send the Dawn Wall without working it on TR, then that ascent would be in better style than his. If you told me you lead
Am I an abject failure as a climber because I am willing to give up my chance for an onsight?
Abject failure is harsh, but I think you are depriving yourself of one of the most rewarding aspects of climbing. I really enjoy walking out to cliff, looking up at a proud line and saying, "hey bud, let's party." Again on a reasonably well-protected route within your abilities, it's really fairly safe to tie in and go for it. And fun as hell.
Ultimately fun is what it's about. But don't get stuck in your comfort zone. Always be pushing the fun envelope. Don't chip, don't grade, don't whine. Just pull down.
That's my two cents'. It's a splitter day here in Tennessee, I'm on my way out the door to go bouldering.
Also, your boyfriend is definitely a jerkface.
posted by lost_cause at 9:15 AM on September 13, 2015
Nthing those above. Setting a top rope where it's safe is no problem, even on bolted routes.
I can see he was trying to push you to climb on lead more to get you used to it. I learned a lot back in the day from an encouraging partner. He respected when I said I couldn't do something, but he pushed in a positive way: "You looked super confident on that 10a, I think you're ready to give this 10c a try." Thinking back at the times I've climbed with people who are light years ahead of me, I can't remember a time I heard negative words like can't, won't, fall, etc. Breaking through barriers to climb that next grade up is 90% mental (for me anyway), so believing you can get there is huge.
That's the reason his "coaching" isn't doing you any favours. You're doing really well, but he's got you thinking that you're a failure, that 10a is only good if you're "just starting". Forget that nonsense. You're making great progress, and you'll get better if you go out with people who are supportive.
posted by thenormshow at 5:31 PM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I can see he was trying to push you to climb on lead more to get you used to it. I learned a lot back in the day from an encouraging partner. He respected when I said I couldn't do something, but he pushed in a positive way: "You looked super confident on that 10a, I think you're ready to give this 10c a try." Thinking back at the times I've climbed with people who are light years ahead of me, I can't remember a time I heard negative words like can't, won't, fall, etc. Breaking through barriers to climb that next grade up is 90% mental (for me anyway), so believing you can get there is huge.
That's the reason his "coaching" isn't doing you any favours. You're doing really well, but he's got you thinking that you're a failure, that 10a is only good if you're "just starting". Forget that nonsense. You're making great progress, and you'll get better if you go out with people who are supportive.
posted by thenormshow at 5:31 PM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wasn't gonna say anything because it's well covered, but you should climb however you want as long as you're not ruining anyone else's day and not doing anything overtly harmful to the rock or the surrounding environment. Questions of style don't really enter into it. At the top end of the sport, sure. Doing first ascents, sure. But not while you're out climbing with friends and trying to have a good time. Banish that shit from your mind and banish from your climbing life anyone who doesn't help you have a great time every time you go out.
posted by that's candlepin at 10:48 AM on September 21, 2015
posted by that's candlepin at 10:48 AM on September 21, 2015
Oh, and 5.10 is definitely "real" climbing. People climb their whole lives never doing anything harder than that. And they have a great damn time.
posted by that's candlepin at 10:49 AM on September 21, 2015
posted by that's candlepin at 10:49 AM on September 21, 2015
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