Pork Butt Snafu - Will this ruin our camping trip?
September 3, 2015 1:07 PM Subscribe
I put a (very expensive, pasture-raised) 6 lb. pork shoulder into my All Clad ceramic slow cooker this morning. I just went into the kitchen and discovered that although the slow cooker shows it's set to low and that 6 1/2 hours have elapsed, the heating element never turned on. Can I cook it in the oven? Is it safe to eat?
It had three slices of bacon underneath, 3 slices of bacon on top, garlic slivers stuffed in everywhere, and salt. No liquid, nothing else, all straight from the refrigerator. I just went into the kitchen and discovered that although the slow cooker shows it's set to low and that 6 1/2 hours have elapsed, the heating element never turned on. I just took the entire insert, which I believe is ceramic, and the glass lid, and popped it in the over that was already heated to 250 degrees. Unfortunately, I didn't check how cold it still was, but I did take a sniff and nothing smelled off. Have you ever used an All Clad ceramic insert and lid in an oven (google says it's okay), do cooking times in the oven correlate with cooking times in a slow cooker, and am I going to risk my health and the health of all my camping companions this weekend by eating this? If it makes a difference to your answer, we're camping at a location with chem toilets only.
It had three slices of bacon underneath, 3 slices of bacon on top, garlic slivers stuffed in everywhere, and salt. No liquid, nothing else, all straight from the refrigerator. I just went into the kitchen and discovered that although the slow cooker shows it's set to low and that 6 1/2 hours have elapsed, the heating element never turned on. I just took the entire insert, which I believe is ceramic, and the glass lid, and popped it in the over that was already heated to 250 degrees. Unfortunately, I didn't check how cold it still was, but I did take a sniff and nothing smelled off. Have you ever used an All Clad ceramic insert and lid in an oven (google says it's okay), do cooking times in the oven correlate with cooking times in a slow cooker, and am I going to risk my health and the health of all my camping companions this weekend by eating this? If it makes a difference to your answer, we're camping at a location with chem toilets only.
Do not eat this.
It has been sitting at room temperature for way too long for raw meat. Six and a half hours at the danger zone is prime territory for food poisoning. Also, the smell test means nothing. The bacteria that cause spoilage and smell are not always the same ones that cause foodborne disease. Finally, cooking this in the oven will kill the bacteria but it can still leave behind the toxins that make you sick.
Throw it away and save you and your campmates a weekend on the toilet.
posted by Mercaptan at 1:16 PM on September 3, 2015 [26 favorites]
It has been sitting at room temperature for way too long for raw meat. Six and a half hours at the danger zone is prime territory for food poisoning. Also, the smell test means nothing. The bacteria that cause spoilage and smell are not always the same ones that cause foodborne disease. Finally, cooking this in the oven will kill the bacteria but it can still leave behind the toxins that make you sick.
Throw it away and save you and your campmates a weekend on the toilet.
posted by Mercaptan at 1:16 PM on September 3, 2015 [26 favorites]
I would not eat pork that had been left out, raw, at room temperature for 6 1/2 hours.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:17 PM on September 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:17 PM on September 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
This sounds delicious, and I *might* eat this myself, but I definitely wouldn't serve it to others, and I wouldn't even risk it for me if I had a non-flush toilet situation ahead of me. I'm sorry.
Assuming that there aren't other factors here (it's actually 50F in your kitchen at all times, the pork was frozen when you put it in the crockpot, etc), I think it's been in the danger zone too long to be salvaged by cooking. The danger zone for raw food is between 40F and 140F. Assuming roomish temperature in your kitchen, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that your pork got into the danger zone in about an hour, and then sat there for another 5.5.
In the oven, at 250F, it's going to take it a while to rise up out of the danger zone (give it another 45 mins or so.
Even if you did bring it up to a safe temperature for pork, many baddies produce toxins that won't be eliminated by heat.
posted by sparklemotion at 1:17 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Assuming that there aren't other factors here (it's actually 50F in your kitchen at all times, the pork was frozen when you put it in the crockpot, etc), I think it's been in the danger zone too long to be salvaged by cooking. The danger zone for raw food is between 40F and 140F. Assuming roomish temperature in your kitchen, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that your pork got into the danger zone in about an hour, and then sat there for another 5.5.
In the oven, at 250F, it's going to take it a while to rise up out of the danger zone (give it another 45 mins or so.
Even if you did bring it up to a safe temperature for pork, many baddies produce toxins that won't be eliminated by heat.
posted by sparklemotion at 1:17 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: P.S. I'm sorry for your loss.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:17 PM on September 3, 2015 [49 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:17 PM on September 3, 2015 [49 favorites]
If the pork was frozen, this is just like thawing at room temperature, which is another no-no. The outside of the meat is in the danger zone and can breed all kind of bacteria.
posted by Mercaptan at 1:26 PM on September 3, 2015
posted by Mercaptan at 1:26 PM on September 3, 2015
Best answer: you and your friends will die in the woods covered in poo. don't do the thing.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:29 PM on September 3, 2015 [47 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 1:29 PM on September 3, 2015 [47 favorites]
You buried the lede there.
Chem toilets? No. That's just one risk too many.
posted by 26.2 at 1:33 PM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Chem toilets? No. That's just one risk too many.
posted by 26.2 at 1:33 PM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I just ate heavy (whipping) cream that expired in May, for what that's worth. I eat steak tartare, sushi, raw egg white cocktails, etc. And there is no way in hell I would eat that pork. I'm really sorry. I had a lovely Niman Ranch spiral ham from Costco that I accidentally left in the car overnight, and there was nothing to do but cry about it.
Furthermore, there is a reason why food that goes bad in the fridge won't kill you: fridge spoilage is not at body temperature. Your pork has been out at near body temperature for a while, and so the body-temperature spoilage microbes (which are the ones that can kill you) have had a field day. The salt and garlic help a little, but not enough.
posted by wnissen at 1:46 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Furthermore, there is a reason why food that goes bad in the fridge won't kill you: fridge spoilage is not at body temperature. Your pork has been out at near body temperature for a while, and so the body-temperature spoilage microbes (which are the ones that can kill you) have had a field day. The salt and garlic help a little, but not enough.
posted by wnissen at 1:46 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Well I'm heartbroken, but not, I suppose, as sad as I would be if I killed my friends and family with bad pork. I do have two other butts cooking, one in a slow cooker that is working, and one in a dutch oven. I think I'll augment with shredded chicken breasts, though it will be hard to find a recipe that even comes close to the pork recipe, which is quite amazing when cooked in a working slow cooker. (Won't someone be disappointed when a search of "butt", "augment" and "breast" brings up this post?)
posted by ms_rasclark at 2:10 PM on September 3, 2015 [22 favorites]
posted by ms_rasclark at 2:10 PM on September 3, 2015 [22 favorites]
Response by poster: The recipe, made with the Hawaiian salt and everything.
posted by ms_rasclark at 2:23 PM on September 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by ms_rasclark at 2:23 PM on September 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
Best answer: I would very happily eat this (and have done similarly many times during my life without any ill effects). If you took it out of the fridge and put it into a relatively well sealed container (and you are dealing with a significant mass at 6lbs), it would take a while to warm up to spoilage temperatures. Yes, technically if your pork roast is at 6C or 10C, it is in the danger zone, but realistically, it is spoiling quite a lot slower than at room temperature, so I would feel very comfortable eating this. Before refrigeration, people used to keep meet for much longer than four hours at room temperature.
Obviously, many will disagree with this approach, but I think the objective risk is very small. This is probably a lot less risky than eating pre-washed spinach without washing it.
That said, I would not rely on cooking time for something like this. You've already used up your margin of error and you need to use a thermometer to make sure it is fully cooked in the centre.
As far as the risk to your companions, people are obviously somewhat concerned about this, so I wouldn't feed it to them without explaining the situation. Could you reserve this one for personal consumption?
If you are concerned about passing the (very, very unlikely) food poisoning that you could have to others due to close quarters, that isn't something to worry about. If the pork is fully cooked, the risk is from toxins, not anything pathogenic as they would all have been destroyed by heat. You can't pass on toxins.
posted by ssg at 2:47 PM on September 3, 2015 [9 favorites]
Obviously, many will disagree with this approach, but I think the objective risk is very small. This is probably a lot less risky than eating pre-washed spinach without washing it.
That said, I would not rely on cooking time for something like this. You've already used up your margin of error and you need to use a thermometer to make sure it is fully cooked in the centre.
As far as the risk to your companions, people are obviously somewhat concerned about this, so I wouldn't feed it to them without explaining the situation. Could you reserve this one for personal consumption?
If you are concerned about passing the (very, very unlikely) food poisoning that you could have to others due to close quarters, that isn't something to worry about. If the pork is fully cooked, the risk is from toxins, not anything pathogenic as they would all have been destroyed by heat. You can't pass on toxins.
posted by ssg at 2:47 PM on September 3, 2015 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks so much, ssg. I've still got it in the oven and will let it go for at least 10 hours. It will be very well cooked through when I take it out. I will not bring it camping but will shred it, freeze it, and save it for another time when I can eat a bit and see how I fare. Or feed it to mr_rasclark...
posted by ms_rasclark at 2:52 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by ms_rasclark at 2:52 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: If you're going to supplement with chicken, I'd go with thighs rather than breasts, if you can get them deboned and skinned. Their fat and connective tissue will make better for pulled chicken than breasts. If you're concerned about calories, you can do a mix of the two.
posted by Aizkolari at 5:19 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Aizkolari at 5:19 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
You could use this meat in stew, by the way, because it's already overcooked after a sense, and your bog-standard toxins break down in the boil in something like minutes, so a much longer simmer should also handle them.
Also, don't know if you've torn it down yet, but you can also just remove the outer inch or so and the center's probably fine, considering A) it took much longer to thaw/warm and B) bacteria, and the toxins they poop out, can't magic themselves into the center of a roast. They get there by, say, a penetrating thermometer, fork, etc., (which may be clean, but they create a path to the center while inoculating the path with surface bacteria), and you probably whether such a thing has been jabbed into the butt.
posted by Sunburnt at 7:47 PM on September 3, 2015
Also, don't know if you've torn it down yet, but you can also just remove the outer inch or so and the center's probably fine, considering A) it took much longer to thaw/warm and B) bacteria, and the toxins they poop out, can't magic themselves into the center of a roast. They get there by, say, a penetrating thermometer, fork, etc., (which may be clean, but they create a path to the center while inoculating the path with surface bacteria), and you probably whether such a thing has been jabbed into the butt.
posted by Sunburnt at 7:47 PM on September 3, 2015
Best answer: Adding to the chorus of no way no hows. With the added Hawaiian red salt in the wound to tell you that it comes out totally amazing, that recipes the shit.
Definitely try it again another time.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 8:46 PM on September 3, 2015
Definitely try it again another time.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 8:46 PM on September 3, 2015
Whatever the science says about room temp defrosting, I grew up under a regime where that was the usual method, and I'm (obviously) still around. And salting surely prevents some spoilage/invasions, no?
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:14 PM on September 3, 2015
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:14 PM on September 3, 2015
Best answer: it would take a while to warm up to spoilage temperatures
For the entire thing? Yes. For the surface, which is where bacteria grows, no.
This is not safe to eat. Nor will cooking it all the way through save you--some nasties are bad for you because of the toxins they leave behind.
Do not eat this. I cook for a living, I am lackadaisical about food safety when I am feeding only myself, to an extreme degree. And I would not eat this. I would absolutely hell no under any circumstances NOT serve this to another human being. Ever. No. It is possible there's no contamination and everyone's going to be fine, sure. And that is not a risk you can take on their behalf, and it is not a risk they are even likely to be able to evaluate with any kind of informed consent. On top of that, you actually don't know if anyone else there is immunocompromised for any reason, which if the meat is contaminated, could make things that much worse.
This is not food. It is garbage. I'm sorry, it sucks, that recipe looks amazing. And this pork cannot go into any human being's mouth with any reasonable guarantee of safety at this point. Do not listen to any advice that says otherwise.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:31 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
For the entire thing? Yes. For the surface, which is where bacteria grows, no.
This is not safe to eat. Nor will cooking it all the way through save you--some nasties are bad for you because of the toxins they leave behind.
Do not eat this. I cook for a living, I am lackadaisical about food safety when I am feeding only myself, to an extreme degree. And I would not eat this. I would absolutely hell no under any circumstances NOT serve this to another human being. Ever. No. It is possible there's no contamination and everyone's going to be fine, sure. And that is not a risk you can take on their behalf, and it is not a risk they are even likely to be able to evaluate with any kind of informed consent. On top of that, you actually don't know if anyone else there is immunocompromised for any reason, which if the meat is contaminated, could make things that much worse.
This is not food. It is garbage. I'm sorry, it sucks, that recipe looks amazing. And this pork cannot go into any human being's mouth with any reasonable guarantee of safety at this point. Do not listen to any advice that says otherwise.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:31 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
You could use this meat in stew, by the way, because it's already overcooked after a sense, and your bog-standard toxins break down in the boil in something like minutes, so a much longer simmer should also handle them.
This is also untrue. Please do not listen to this.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:41 PM on September 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
This is also untrue. Please do not listen to this.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:41 PM on September 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Sadly but safely, it's now in the trash. Just not worth the risk. I took Aizkolari's advice and augmented the remaining pork with chicken thighs in this recipe. And now I have a new amazing recipe in my repetoire, a much quicker one to make than the pork though that one is a keeper, too. It was super easy because I replaced the homemade salsa with this. And we'll have two different meat options. Thanks, everyone for the amazing and entertaining answers.
posted by ms_rasclark at 10:01 AM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by ms_rasclark at 10:01 AM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is moot at this point, but here is an interesting article about food safety from a much more nuanced perspective than just danger zone + time in Food Safety Magazine. Figures 1 and 3 will be of particular interest, with Figure 3 showing 6.5 hours even at 21C, let alone 15C, to be well within the low risk zone. The highest risk is above 20C. In relative terms, bacterial growth is much slower at temperatures even 5 or 10C lower.
In particular, I would be very surprised if any part of a 6lb hunk of meat left in an enclosed ceramic and glass container for 6.5 hours at room temperature would reached 20C for enough time to see any significant bacterial growth (and even a few hours at 20C is low risk). In a closed container, the air inside the container will quickly be cooled by the meat and the surface of the meat will not be much warmer than the interior. One also needs to take into account the thermal conductivity of the meat, air, and materials that the meat is in contact with.
In the interest of home science, the next time I have a big hunk of meat in the fridge, I'm going to test this and measure the surface temperature of the meat every hour or so with an IR thermometer. I'll report back.
Right now, I'm cooking a roast sous vide at 57C for 30 hours. It will be delicious and totally safe, even though if I were to follow the food danger zone guidelines, I'd certainly have to throw it out (30 hours below 60C!)
posted by ssg at 11:15 AM on September 4, 2015
In particular, I would be very surprised if any part of a 6lb hunk of meat left in an enclosed ceramic and glass container for 6.5 hours at room temperature would reached 20C for enough time to see any significant bacterial growth (and even a few hours at 20C is low risk). In a closed container, the air inside the container will quickly be cooled by the meat and the surface of the meat will not be much warmer than the interior. One also needs to take into account the thermal conductivity of the meat, air, and materials that the meat is in contact with.
In the interest of home science, the next time I have a big hunk of meat in the fridge, I'm going to test this and measure the surface temperature of the meat every hour or so with an IR thermometer. I'll report back.
Right now, I'm cooking a roast sous vide at 57C for 30 hours. It will be delicious and totally safe, even though if I were to follow the food danger zone guidelines, I'd certainly have to throw it out (30 hours below 60C!)
posted by ssg at 11:15 AM on September 4, 2015
And I just want to second that bog-standard toxins don't break down quickly with boiling. Heat stable E Coli enterotoxin is totally bog-standard and easily resists boiling for a few minutes.
posted by ssg at 11:21 AM on September 4, 2015
posted by ssg at 11:21 AM on September 4, 2015
Response by poster: Thanks, ssg for the detailed reply. Your second paragraph was exactly my thinking. At this point, I'd almost rather not know that I tossed 6 lbs. of perfectly good pastured pork, which I feel I did, but on that miniscule chance that it was compromised, I didn't want to take the chance. The bacon was the one thing that pushed me over the edge. On the bright side, we'll still have some pork and the chicken dish is really, really good.
posted by ms_rasclark at 12:04 PM on September 4, 2015
posted by ms_rasclark at 12:04 PM on September 4, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by andrewcooke at 1:13 PM on September 3, 2015