Comments on: Medieval Christian iconography - why a ball?

Question: Medieval Christian iconography - why a ball?

saffron — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:00:42 -0800

What is the significance of Christ holding a ball/globe in Medieval Christian art?

Such as in this work: http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=64974&coll_keywords=soissons&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_package=0&coll_start=1

He holds it in his left hand.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:04:16 -0800

Normal Link to the Above Art

...looks more like an egg to me.

By: holgate

holgate — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:15:28 -0800

Christ Pantocrator iconography. The orb is still part of the British crown jewels.

By: misteraitch

misteraitch — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:19:10 -0800

I guess this could be an example of Christ being protrayed as Salvator Mundi (Saviour of the World) 'with his right hand raised in blessing and his left hand holding an orb' where the orb symbolizes the Earth. Or what holgate said.

By: saffron

saffron — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:20:33 -0800

My first idea was that it represents the Earth...but didn't they think it was flat at the time? The date of the sculpture is around 1200.

By: MasonDixon

MasonDixon — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:36:19 -0800

Eratosthenes came up with a good estimate of the earth's circumference circa 240 BCE.

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:37:01 -0800

Various fruits and birds and other things were often used to in depictions of the Christ child to symbolize the passion. In this painting, for instance, it's a pomegranate. I've also seen goldfinches, grapes, and I think apples labelled in these works as "symbols of the Passion," though I've never read any explanation of why.

In any event, that would be my guess.

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:38:04 -0800

(Errr, the capital-P "Passion" for that first one. Not just any ol' passion. Sorry.)

By: jellicle

jellicle — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:38:51 -0800

No, the Earth has been known to be round for at least 2500 years.

The crown and orb and scepter have long been symbols of kings. Typically the orb is said to represent worldly sovereignty and was often topped with a cross in Europe - one nation under God.

So Christ holding a ball is just saying something like, "Christ the King".

By: Atreides

Atreides — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:51:01 -0800

In reference to "Flat World," Greek philosophers figured the world was round before Jesus walked the earth. The orb has always been a symbol of power from Roman times up. Here's a wikipedia entry on the matter.

As well as as a briefer Britannica article.

By: atrazine

atrazine — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:52:27 -0800

jellicle: It depends on what you mean by "has been known", the ancient Greeks certainly knew, but whether the Church accepted the earth was round (or whether they even knew of the possibility) in 1200AD is a different matter.

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:06:24 -0800

(You'll notice that in the crown & orb works, none of the people holding the orb is the Christ child. We're dealing with a different set of iconography, here.)

By: Chuckles

Chuckles — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:26:36 -0800

In Terry Jones Medieval Lives they attribute the origin of the 'Europeans believe in a flat-earth' myth to Washington Irving, who made up an 'encounter' where Columbus confronts the church about the roundness of the world...

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:27:58 -0800

That iconography being: Depictions of the Madonna and child are about birth and rebirth. The Christ has just been born, and he will be reborn. Pretty much every Madonna and child painting I've seen has some reference to his subsequent death -- like I said, the pomegranate (which further googling has indicated symbolizes Christ rising from the dead like the seeds bursting through the fruit), the goldfinch (which may or may not have a streak of red on its chest, symbolizing Christ's suffering during the Crufixion), or the apple (symbolizing the possibility of salvation through Christ).

It's a cycle-of-life, resurrection through Christ idea. In the same way, Pietas, in depicting the death of Christ, also work in the idea of his birth by having him held by his mother.

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:31:17 -0800

An *adult* Christ with an orb in his hand is obviously different, but the sculpture linked in the original question is a Madonna and Child.

(And now I'll stop with the serial posting. Sorry.)

By: KirkJobSluder

KirkJobSluder — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:54:53 -0800

atrazine: jellicle: It depends on what you mean by "has been known", the ancient Greeks certainly knew, but whether the Church accepted the earth was round (or whether they even knew of the possibility) in 1200AD is a different matter.

In spite of the popular myth of Columbus convincing a Spanish Court that the world was round, his actual sales pitch was that the Earth was quite a bit smaller than the Greek and Roman estimates. It is unknown whether the Spanish Court that was highly literate in the Classics from both Latin and Arabic sources really bought this claim or not. Christian cosmology was based on Aristotle. this book has more information.

This particular iconography is called Salvator Mundi or savior of the world. A quick google search found many examples of the Christ Child as Salvator Mundi both in Madonna and Child images but also to identify the Christ Child in relationship with other Saints such as Christopher.

I think that you really need more detail than is offered to identify the exact iconography in this case. It could be a pomegranate, it could be an orb of the world. The sculture is eroded enough that it could be ambiguous.

I'll respectfully disagree with occhiblu in that it's a fairly common tradition art for infant and adult religious and mythological figures to be portrayed with the same icons.

By: ikkyu2

ikkyu2 — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:02:50 -0800

Obligatory Wikipedia link. I'm pretty sure it's the same symbolism.

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:16:47 -0800

And a quick "pomegranate Madonna" image search turns up ten times as many results (granted, a few of them not applicable).

I will step back from the absolutist "adult Christ never shown with same icons as baby Christ" claim, but I do think that a symbol of the Passion is still the most reasonable interpretation, given the setting and how common that symbolism would be (mother, child, birth, death). There's one link in KirkJobSluder's search that *might* be the Madonna and child (it's too small for me to tell), but the rest have Christ by himself.

By: vanoakenfold

vanoakenfold — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:46:12 -0800

Science was the origin of the flat-earth concept. The Hebrews had recorded it as a sphere floating in space in disputably the first book (chronologically) written in the Old Testament: Job.

I'm not familiar with Christ holding orbs, but hazarding a guess: "He's got the whole world, in his hands.."

By: misteraitch

misteraitch — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:56:15 -0800

Here's an example (although it's shown so small in the linked picture that it's hard to see) by Carlo Crivelli in his Massa Fermana altarpiece of the infant Christ portrayed as Salvator Mundi 'with his lips parted and his right hand raised in blessing, his left hand holding the globe of the world.' (The quote is from Ronald Lightbown's book on Crivelli.) In at least one of his other altarpieces, Crivelli painted baby Jesus as holding an apple, but the pose there is not the same as the example here.

By: fidelity

fidelity — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:58:53 -0800

It's probably a song reference. Medieval Christians were bigger on the allusions that you'd think.

By: Chuckles

Chuckles — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:02:52 -0800

I know this question isn't about the flat earth myth and all, but I decided to look up a better source and found this: Has Thomas Friedman Fallen for the Columbus Myth, so I thought I would share. If you are interested, don't forget to click through to the comments.

By: kirkaracha

kirkaracha — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:29:38 -0800

It's a basketball. Jesus had amazing ups, and could dunk over anybody.

By: kirkaracha

kirkaracha — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:30:41 -0800

As shown in Exhibit A.

By: booksandlibretti

booksandlibretti — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:08:06 -0800

How shall I put this? It seems kind of self-explanatory, but --

He's got the whole world in His hands.

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:23:09 -0800

If ONE MORE PERSON in this thread gets that song stuck in my head, I am going to start kicking some serious ass. Consider yourself duly warned.