Comments on: How to pronounce Powys?

Question: How to pronounce Powys?

jsteward — Mon, 05 Dec 2005 23:01:11 -0800

How do you pronounce the Welsh "state" of Powys?

By: acoutu

acoutu — Mon, 05 Dec 2005 23:06:22 -0800

This page has a wav file that should answer your question.

By: misteraitch

misteraitch — Mon, 05 Dec 2005 23:07:55 -0800

Pow-iss, pow as in cow, iss as in piss, with emphasis on the first syllable.

By: Rothko

Rothko — Mon, 05 Dec 2005 23:08:03 -0800

Pow-Iss

By: jsteward

jsteward — Mon, 05 Dec 2005 23:09:10 -0800

Thanks. The Welsh pronunciation guides are ambiguous regarding 'wy.'

By: cloeburner

cloeburner — Mon, 05 Dec 2005 23:36:06 -0800

Blast, I've always wondered how to pronounce Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllandysiliogogogoch but this site purposefully skips over that one. It's probably the main reason anyone visits the site anyway. Jerks.

By: misteraitch

misteraitch — Mon, 05 Dec 2005 23:58:49 -0800

I think when wy begins a word, or when a there's a vowel followed by a -wy the w is pronounced, but after a consonant, as in hwyl or nwy for example its a diphthong vowel-sound that's a kind of shortened oo-ee.

By: AmbroseChapel

AmbroseChapel — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 00:28:23 -0800

I've always wondered how to pronounce Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllandysiliogogogoch

Just the way it's written.

By: salmacis

salmacis — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 01:19:46 -0800

BTW - Powys is a county, not a state.

With Welsh pronounciation, you just have to remember a few rules:
'Ll' is similar to 'th', but with the tongue further back
'f' = 'v'
'ff' = 'f'
'dd' = 'th'
'w' is both a vowel and a consonent. The context is usually obvious. When it's a vowel it's similar to 'oo'

By: ascullion

ascullion — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 02:34:39 -0800

'Ll' is similar to 'th', but with the tongue further back

Except for in the first 'll' in Llanelli, surely

Which I've always said as..

Clan-eth-li.

By: biffa

biffa — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 03:00:55 -0800

I was going to say the same about Llandudno.

By: misteraitch

misteraitch — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 03:03:19 -0800

I was wrong before about there being a single hard-and-fast rule about the pronunciation of wy.

wy: There are actually two versions of this diphthong: a rising version (stress on the "y"; the "w" is consonantal) and a falling one (stress on the "w"; the "y" is consonantal). Examples: "gw+ydd" (goose) is pronounced GOOH-eethe (falling); "gwy+dd" (trees) is pronounced GWEETHE (rising).

So Powys has a short version of the rising diphthong. Words can begin with either the rising (as in wythnos 'week') or the falling (as in wyth 'eight') varieties of wy.

By: creeky

creeky — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 03:51:30 -0800

To pronounce that "ll", put your tongue on the roof of your mouth as you would for a regular "l", and blow air out either side of your tongue. It's the same in Llanelli, both instances.

By: mr_silver

mr_silver — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 04:23:09 -0800

Sorry ascullion and biffa but you are pronouncing them wrongly.

Ll is always like a "th" with the tongue further back, irrespective of whether it starts the word or not. Using "Cl" is wrong.

The reason people think it is "Cl" is because they copy the sounding from someone else without understanding how it is produced.

By: ceri richard

ceri richard — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:30:31 -0800

I agree with mr_silver's explanation, adding only that if you feel as if your tongue has been cut off while first saying it then you're pronouncing it correctly. The feeling goes away the more you practice :-)

There are a couple of fairly accurate audios of Llwynypia and Llanrwst here (at least on my shoddy, barely audible, soon-to-be-replaced speakers).

By: nylon

nylon — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:52:22 -0800

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllandysiliogogogoch

Th(l)anvire pu(l)th gween gu(l)th gorgerruh khweirn drobuh(l)th th(l)anduhsillio gorgorgorkh. Where kh is like the German ch.

Or thereabouts.

By: ceri richard

ceri richard — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 06:15:08 -0800

I'm not a gog (North Walian) but I'd slightly amend Nylon's excellent contribution with:

Th(l)anvire pu(l)th gwin gi(l)th go gerruh-ch wim drobuh(l)th th(l)antuhsillio go-go-goch.

Where "ch" is like the gutteral Dutch of goed or oog, or the German Bach or the Scottish loch and all "o"s are pronounced with a flat "o" (unlike the open "o" of, say, Llangollen). It's almost the oa of oar in English.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 06:56:04 -0800

misteraitch is right, and may I point out that the Welsh pronunciation, with its difficult diphthong, is appropriate only if you're speaking Welsh. There's nothing more annoying than people who go around saying "knee-kah-RRRAGH-wah" for Nicaragua and "pah-RGHHEEE" for Paris in the middle of English sentences.

By: ceri richard

ceri richard — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:31:38 -0800

I would agree with you up to a point languagehat (although I think it's good to make a passing nod at correct pronounciation). The exception would be mother tongue speakers using a second language (e.g. a Welsh speaker, talking in English, using a Welsh word). I'm especially appreciative of those who attempt the Ll rather than taking the lazy way out.

By: nylon

nylon — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:32:25 -0800

Welsh pronunciation, with its difficult diphthong, is appropriate only if you're speaking Welsh

Huh? That's nonsense. Many places in Wales have English names unrelated to the Welsh word, but if you pronounce Llandudno in any way other than th(l)anDIDno, or Hirwaun anything other than Hearr-wine, regardless of which language you're speaking, you're wrong. Do you pronounce Lyons as Lions or Lee-o(n)?

By: meehawl

meehawl — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:39:00 -0800

Welsh was developed so that Irish spelling and pronounciation would seem easy.

By: biffa

biffa — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:50:27 -0800

nylon, are you agreeing or disagreeing with languagehat on the pronounciation of Paris as Paree?

By: emelenjr

emelenjr — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:50:59 -0800

Nylon brings up an interesting point. I'm an American who speaks French, and even if I were speaking English, I'd say "Lyons" the way someone speaking French would say it. But I'd pronounce Paris (and maybe some other place names, too, but that one immediately comes to mind) differently according to which language I was speaking at the time. "We'll always have Paree" just doesn't sound right.

By: ceri richard

ceri richard — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:05:41 -0800

Welsh is remarkably easy to pronounce compared to English. There are no Magdelenes (Maudlins) to trip up the unwitting speaker.

By: ceri richard

ceri richard — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:06:42 -0800

And a gold star to nylon for possibly the first mention of Hirwaun on MetaFilter :-)

By: creeky

creeky — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:13:17 -0800

I'd say "Lyons" the way someone speaking French would say it.

Would you? As one syllable, with the fancy nasalised "o" sound? Or just like the name "Leon" in English?

By: Mayor Curley

Mayor Curley — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:14:48 -0800

Interesting fact-- inhabitants of "ll" towns in southern wales (where most of the inhabitants don't speak welsh) often can't be bothered to pronounce the name of their town authentically. My friends in Llandrindod Wells refer to the town as "LAN-dawd".

By: Rothko

Rothko — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:54:09 -0800

I don't know where this "ll" = "th" stuff is coming from. My family lives just outside Llandrindod Wells (Crossgates) and I've heard it pronounced "Hlahn-dawd". Likewise, my brother's middle name is Llewelyn and has been pronounced "Hloo-el-in" as long as I can remember.

By: emelenjr

emelenjr — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:55:52 -0800

Creeky, the former, not the latter. And it's not quite one syllable, but I know what you mean. French place names are getting off the AskMe subject here, sort of, but other "Pariss" for "Paree", I've never heard people do the same with other place names, (i.e. "Lee-ahns" or "Lions" for Lyons or "Nyce" for Nice, etc.)

I'm with languagehat on the general obnoxiousness of "exaggerated" pronunciation of foreign words in the middle of sentences spoken in English, but for me it's hard to avoid altering my Americanized speech and pronunciation habits a little bit when I encounter many foreign place names. As for why Paris has an anglophone variant pronuncation while many other place names don't, I'm stumped.

By: nylon

nylon — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:06:43 -0800

biffa: the English word for Paris (Pa-ree) is Paris (Parriss). In the same way that the English word for Abergwaun is Fishguard, and the English word for Suomi is Finland. If I'm speaking English, I'll use the English word. Hirwaun, however, is simply Hirwaun. Countries, regions and larger cities generally have equivalents in other languages, and I agree that it seems affected to use local words when speaking in English. But if I am going to use a local word, or if there's no English word for a place, I'll pronounce it how the locals pronounce it. There's only one way to pronounce Abergwaun correctly, even though there's an English word for it. And since I'm not aware that there's an English word for Lyons, I'll pronounce it how the French pronounce it.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 10:18:56 -0800

nylon, your thinking is remarkably muddled.

...if you pronounce Llandudno in any way other than th(l)anDIDno, or Hirwaun anything other than Hearr-wine, regardless of which language you're speaking, you're wrong. Do you pronounce Lyons as Lions or Lee-o(n)?

I pronounce it the latter way because that is the current English pronunciation—which is not the French one (one syllable, as creeky says). A couple of hundred years ago the standard English pronunciation was just like the noun lions, just as Milan was MY-lan and Calais was pronounced like callous; had I been living then, that's how I would have said them, and I would have been right.

the English word for Paris (Pa-ree) is Paris (Parriss)

Exactly, and the English word for Powys (pʌʊɪs) is Powys (POW-is). English-speakers are not required to learn or adopt the phonetic habits of other languages, and if you disagree, you'd better be damn diligent about doing it for every language on the face of the earth, not just the ones you happen to already be familiar with. How do you say Ulaan Baator? Orel? Szechuan? Better get busy with the reference books and tapes.

In other words, if you pronounce Llandudno or Hirwaun the way Welsh-speakers do while speaking Welsh, if you're speaking English, you're wrong.

By: nylon

nylon — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 10:58:04 -0800

if you pronounce Llandudno or Hirwaun the way Welsh-speakers do while speaking Welsh, if you're speaking English, you're wrong.

Interesting. Then please tell me the 'current English pronunciation' of Hirwaun. And Llandudno. And also, for future reference, Llanfair-yn-neubwll.

By: solid-one-love

solid-one-love — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:28:56 -0800

I feel like I'm watching that Saturday Night Live skit where people were pronouncing Spanish names with exaggerated accents.

The Quebecois pronounce Montreal differently than I do, but I'm not wrong to pronounce it the English way.

creeky: is that "ll" pronounciation basically the same as the Aztec "tl" (Tlaloc, Qutzlcoatl, etc.)?

In any case, I agree with languagehat, but will endeavour not to do so again.

By: ceri richard

ceri richard — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:47:04 -0800

languagehat: if you pronounce Llandudno or Hirwaun the way Welsh-speakers do while speaking Welsh, if you're speaking English, you're wrong.

Sorry, but that's wrong. Whilst I agree that you'd look like a complete plonker and/or pretentious twat in pronouncing Paris as Paree in the middle of an English sentence, there is nothing wrong with pronouncing Welsh (and various other) place names correctly whilst speaking English.

I'm with emelenjr when he said, "As for why Paris has an anglophone variant pronuncation while many other place names don't, I'm stumped." - I'm stumped too, but glad that it's another sign of the diversity and development of language and culture.

As to south Walian non Welsh speakers' pronunciation of Hirwaun, I can point you to at least 5 different versions of the same word [ranging from 'irwine to Hirrwine], depending on where in the valley/coastline the speaker is from, their education (Catholic v Protestant school), further education, etc. etc.

Duw, I'm enjoying this thread!

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:59:54 -0800

Whilst I agree that you'd look like a complete plonker and/or pretentious twat in pronouncing Paris as Paree in the middle of an English sentence, there is nothing wrong with pronouncing Welsh (and various other) place names correctly whilst speaking English.

Right, because you happen to be familiar with Welsh. It's always the other guy's pronunciation that makes him sound like a pretentious twat.

Then please tell me the 'current English pronunciation' of Hirwaun. And Llandudno. And also, for future reference, Llanfair-yn-neubwll.

There is none. (And there's no consistent Welsh pronunciation either; see ceri richard's comment just above.) What's your point? Most places in the world don't have a standard English pronunciation; we do the best we can if we find ourselves in the position of having to pronounce them. Again: if you're going to insist on echt-Welsh pronunciations, you'd better be ready to produce proper native versions of every place name on Earth. I'm not holding my breath.

By: geckoinpdx

geckoinpdx — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:52:36 -0800

Regarding pronunciation, is it pretty much a universal feeling that using native placename pronunciation in the middle of English is pretentious?

I've done this on occasion, but it's not done out of pretense, more a desire to be correct. HAM-burg doesn't sound right to my half-German ears, so it's usually HOMM-boorg (I suck at phonetic spelling, but you get the idea) but Köln is Cologne if I'm talking to an English speaker.

But Paris for me is always Paris. Not Paree.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:22:25 -0800

Nothing's universal around here; see above for comments in favor of native placename pronunciation in the middle of English. Believe me, I'm all in favor of being correct (and spend more time than I should looking things up in a futile attempt to achieve correctness); the question is, what is correct in a given context? There's a natural tendency when one has learned the native pronunciation of something—especially if one has just returned from some idyllic vacation—to use that pronunciation everywhere and act all smug and superior with those who use the usual anglicized version; see this rant for a brilliant takedown of that approach ("Who among us has not come back from some foreign trip intent on saying 'yama' for llama, or 'Nee-kar-agggh-wa' for Nicaragua, or 'Mong-rrrhay-al' for Montreal?"). But the fact is that it's absurd 1) to think our attempts at reproducing French or Spanish or whatever are "authentic" unless we've made a serious study of the language, and 2) to pride ourselves on our accuracy when saying French or Spanish placenames while being just as ignorant as the other English speakers with every other language. (I could probably beat 99% of MeFites in an authentic-pronunciation contest, but I'm constantly running into proper names that make me go "Huh?") And you wind up sounding like a pretentious twat to the people you're conversing with. It's not worth it.

None of which is to say you're a bad person for saying HAHM-burg instead of HAM-; if it sounds right to you (and being half-German certainly makes that likely), go right ahead. The important thing is that you don't look down on and "correct" other people for using the usual pronunciation. That would make you a bad person.

By: breath

breath — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:42:32 -0800

So the important thing is intent, or perhaps the perception of intent, and not actually the pronunciation itself?

By: ascullion

ascullion — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:51:20 -0800

So how am I supposed to say Llanelli? As a rugby fan, it's very important that I know..

By: ceri richard

ceri richard — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:11:27 -0800

languagehat: "Again: if you're going to insist on echt-Welsh pronunciations, you'd better be ready to produce proper native versions of every place name on Earth. I'm not holding my breath."
Not necessarily surely? Say you live on the English/Welsh borders you might want to concentrate your pronunciation skills on English/Welsh names. Living in Belgium you might want to focus on Flemish/Walloon/French/Dutch/German names. And of course it helps to correctly pronounce place names while travelling.

solid-one-love : "I feel like I'm watching that Saturday Night Live skit where people were pronouncing Spanish names with exaggerated accents."
Heh. The Brits of a certain age amongst us will similarly remember Pamela Stephenson's newsreader character (based on Angela Rippon?) from Not the Nine O'Clock News.

breath: So the important thing is intent, or perhaps the perception of intent, and not actually the pronunciation itself?
languagehat: "None of which is to say you're a bad person for saying HAHM-burg instead of HAM-; if it sounds right to you (and being half-German certainly makes that likely), go right ahead. The important thing is that you don't look down on and "correct" other people for using the usual pronunciation. That would make you a bad person."

Both good points.

I'd also add into the mix that (for those with knowledge of more than one language) pronunciation of a word can depend on the circumstance. For example, in a group of mixed French and English mother tongues I would pronounce an English word/place name as I would in English. But if I was in solely native French speaking company I would "Frenchify" the pronunciation because that is what would fit better.

For ascullion, a pronunciation guide to Llanelli:

Th(l)an e (l)th ee
with the emphasis on the bolded middle "e"

For the Th(l) bit, see creeky's comment above.

By: geckoinpdx

geckoinpdx — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:18:09 -0800

Thanks for that. I wouldn't ever think down on someone for using an English pronunciation (provided it were widely in use) and I certainly wouldn't attempt to correct them. At the same time, I would love to be corrected by a native if I'm mispronouncing one of their words since I really like that sort of thing (language fascinates me).

This is only a raw nerve because I recently had a...discussion with a close friend who was adamant that I was wrong and being difficult for saying bahn-gla-DE-shi instead of "from BANG-la-desh" because dammit, that's how I heard it from natives. My general rule has been that if there's an English translation, that's what I'll use when speaking English (tangentially related to the original question, I say Cardiff, not Caerdydd) but many Anglicised pronunciations just rub me the wrong way.

Of course now that I say that, I can't think of any examples. The only thing that comes to mind is my nickname for the aforementioned friend; junge (German for boy, it's a long story). Despite being called this for over five years, and that word having no common English pronunciation, he insists on referring to said nickname as YUHNG-a. "Because it's spelled with a U".

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 15:41:08 -0800

Say you live on the English/Welsh borders you might want to concentrate your pronunciation skills on English/Welsh names. Living in Belgium you might want to focus on Flemish/ Walloon/
French/ Dutch/ German names. And of course it helps to correctly pronounce place names while travelling.

All good points. But I assumed we were discussing pronunciation in general, not in those specific circumstances, in which I agree a local pronunciation might serve nicely.

a close friend who was adamant that I was wrong and being difficult

See, that's what ticks me off. Say it however you like, be a pretentious twat if you want, but don't go around "correcting" other people or I'm gonna put the hurt on you. ("You" in that rant representing your friend, obviously, not you.)

By: ceri richard

ceri richard — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:08:44 -0800

"I'm gonna put the hurt on you"

Now that's a (new to me) phrase I'm going to put to good use at the earliest opportunity!

By: geckoinpdx

geckoinpdx — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:51:41 -0800

I might say "In German, it's pronounced Xxxx" or some such (as information, not to correct) , but I would never insist that a native English speaker say, add the sh sound in Stuttgart or STUTT-gart is just fine.

I will admit to a minor point of twattishness with some loanwords, though. It's VELT-schmerts and not WELT-schmerz. That's one of the words which grates on my nerves when I hear it repronounced.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 17:07:04 -0800

I will admit to a minor point of twattishness with some loanwords, though. It's VELT-schmerts and not WELT-schmerz.

OK, you got me there. I'm a bit twattish about that myself. I'd never correct someone who said it the latter way, but I'd ~~throw up a little in my mouth~~ cringe.

By: creeky

creeky — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 02:23:03 -0800

Me on a plane a few months ago: I spent a day in Barcelona.
English man next to me: Where, sorry?
Me: Barcelona.
English man: Oh - BarrrthéLOna.
Me: *polite smile, headphones back on, pretend to sleep*

By: creeky

creeky — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 02:30:47 -0800

creeky: is that "ll" pronounciation basically the same as the Aztec "tl" (Tlaloc, Qutzlcoatl, etc.)?

From what I can tell, the Aztec "tl" is a voiceless alveolar lateral affricate. The Welsh "ll" is a voiceless alveolar lateral fricative. So they're both articulated in the same place, neither are voiced, and air flows round the sides of the tongue in both cases, but the Aztec version starts with the tongue blocking the airway completely, and the Welsh one doesn't. It's like the difference between English "ch" and "sh".