豪州
August 26, 2015 8:24 AM Subscribe
Can anyone answer the question posed in this blog post? Namely, what is the etymology behind the choice of kanji for the word for Australia?
The original form of the word in Japanese was 濠太剌利, which was phonetic, and then 濠 became 豪 as part of kanji reforms, and it got shortened.
That still doesn't solve the problem, because 濠太剌利 looks like it should be pronounced something like "goutarari," so where does the "gou" come from? But the Cantonese pronunciation of 濠 is "hou," so at some point in Medieval Japanese 濠 was probably pronounced "hou" as well, and turned into "gou" later. I'm not at all sure of when 濠 turned into "gou" relative to the time 濠太剌利 was coined, but as far as I can figure out, there was likely some influence there.
(BTW: the word was likely never pronounced "goutarari"; it would have just been one of those words, common in Japanese place-names, where the pronunciation is dramatically different from what you would expect based on the kanji.)
posted by Jeanne at 9:19 AM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
That still doesn't solve the problem, because 濠太剌利 looks like it should be pronounced something like "goutarari," so where does the "gou" come from? But the Cantonese pronunciation of 濠 is "hou," so at some point in Medieval Japanese 濠 was probably pronounced "hou" as well, and turned into "gou" later. I'm not at all sure of when 濠 turned into "gou" relative to the time 濠太剌利 was coined, but as far as I can figure out, there was likely some influence there.
(BTW: the word was likely never pronounced "goutarari"; it would have just been one of those words, common in Japanese place-names, where the pronunciation is dramatically different from what you would expect based on the kanji.)
posted by Jeanne at 9:19 AM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Can't fully answer this but the pronunciation of Chinese characters/loan words in Korean and Japanese varies, sometimes a LOT, depending on when and where in China they were borrowed from. The examples that baffle the blogger (like the Japanese 米国/beigoku for 'America') are less baffling if you consider that because of this (and the natural evolution of languages), 米 is also mai, me, and kome, among other things.
Back to Australia, 澳 is pronounced in Mandarin as ào ("ow!") and ou3 ("oh...") in Cantonese. Picking a kanji that sounds like ho doesn't seem like that far of a stretch to me, if say, the Japanese first happened to hear about Australia from a speaker of Cantonese instead of some other dialect.
posted by yeahlikethat at 9:23 AM on August 26, 2015
Back to Australia, 澳 is pronounced in Mandarin as ào ("ow!") and ou3 ("oh...") in Cantonese. Picking a kanji that sounds like ho doesn't seem like that far of a stretch to me, if say, the Japanese first happened to hear about Australia from a speaker of Cantonese instead of some other dialect.
posted by yeahlikethat at 9:23 AM on August 26, 2015
Best answer: The original form of the word in Japanese was 濠太剌利, which was phonetic
No, it's ateji (当て字). According to 大辞林 and other Japanese dictionaries, this word is read as オーストラリア. Specifically, the characters' readings break down as (オース)(ト)(ラ)(リア).
The spelling of 豪州 has become widespread because 豪 is a joyo kanji. 濠 resembles 豪 but 豪 is not a simplified version of 濠. (濠 is a "moat/ditch/canal" while 豪 is "grand/powerful")
The short answer to OP's question is, "no one really knows". However, reviewing some Edo period maps starting with in the late 1770s shows that Australia was first called by various names meaning, "New Holland". The first use of 豪 appears in an 1844 map's term for Australia, 豪斯多棘里. Ultimately, there is not a clear answer for how 濠/豪 came to be read as "oosu". One theory is that these characters have reads of "hao" and "hou"/"ho" in Mandarin and Cantonese, respectively, and that they were misheard/evolved to be read with the initial "h" becoming silent, giving "ao" or "ou"/"o".
Also, the reason for 豪州 rather than 豪国 appears to be that at the time Australia was assigned its modern kanji name, it was still a British territory rather than an independent state.
I am guessing your Japanese is not sufficient to read adult native materials, but if it is, I can forward you some links.
posted by Tanizaki at 2:00 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
No, it's ateji (当て字). According to 大辞林 and other Japanese dictionaries, this word is read as オーストラリア. Specifically, the characters' readings break down as (オース)(ト)(ラ)(リア).
The spelling of 豪州 has become widespread because 豪 is a joyo kanji. 濠 resembles 豪 but 豪 is not a simplified version of 濠. (濠 is a "moat/ditch/canal" while 豪 is "grand/powerful")
The short answer to OP's question is, "no one really knows". However, reviewing some Edo period maps starting with in the late 1770s shows that Australia was first called by various names meaning, "New Holland". The first use of 豪 appears in an 1844 map's term for Australia, 豪斯多棘里. Ultimately, there is not a clear answer for how 濠/豪 came to be read as "oosu". One theory is that these characters have reads of "hao" and "hou"/"ho" in Mandarin and Cantonese, respectively, and that they were misheard/evolved to be read with the initial "h" becoming silent, giving "ao" or "ou"/"o".
Also, the reason for 豪州 rather than 豪国 appears to be that at the time Australia was assigned its modern kanji name, it was still a British territory rather than an independent state.
I am guessing your Japanese is not sufficient to read adult native materials, but if it is, I can forward you some links.
posted by Tanizaki at 2:00 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Tanizaki, while I dunno about the "go"→"o" shift, doesn't it seem that the mystery of the "o"→"osu" jump comes from the fact that originally the "osu" was expressed with two kanji (豪("o")斯("su")), and that eventually the second kanji fell out of use in the name, and the 豪 started representing the "o" sound and also the "su" of the omitted 斯?
posted by Bugbread at 7:18 PM on August 26, 2015
posted by Bugbread at 7:18 PM on August 26, 2015
Best answer: Bugbread, yes, I agree with your comment regarding the omitted 斯.
I hit the Japanese web pretty hard on this and it came down to "no one really knows, but here are some ideas".
posted by Tanizaki at 7:57 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I hit the Japanese web pretty hard on this and it came down to "no one really knows, but here are some ideas".
posted by Tanizaki at 7:57 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by showbiz_liz at 9:10 AM on August 26, 2015