Help with marriage counseling?
August 26, 2015 4:01 AM Subscribe
My wife and I are recently separated and there's some weird dynamics going on. Would appreciate your thoughts. Long details within.
Background:
This year I had a six week emotional and physical affair that ended when my wife discovered it. I admitted to the emotional piece immediately but it took me three months to admit to the rest. This caused her incalculable pain. We're married 25 years this year and neither of us has been unfaithful before.
I am deeply remorseful, began seeing a therapist immediately, and I'm working hard to be a better father, husband, and man. I've put this specific relationship behind me and I'm working on the vulnerabilities that contributed to it.
After the final disclosure we separated "in-house," meaning separate bedrooms and very little contact, except around our teenage son, who remained unaware of any problem (take my word on that). This went on for two months while we saw a couples counselor once a week. During this period my wife asked me to move out of the house altogether, to give her some emotional distance from me. We agreed on three months, which financially is all we can do. This began August 1st. We've agreed that I move back in Nov. 1. The couples counseling has continued.
I was vehemently opposed to moving out because, money, because our son, and because while living together was difficult, especially for her, we were gradually getting along better and having very productive conversations. The separation has cut that down to one hour, once a week. But I agreed because I owe her whatever she needs to recover from what I did to her.
Here's the weird dynamic. At one point before I moved out, she told me that in deciding whether to stay married to me, she wasn't just considering the affair -- she was considering the entirety of our marriage. Up to then all discussions had been about the affair only.
We both had been experiencing some low-grade unhappiness, me probably more than her, for years. We have been awful communicators our entire marriage. For my part this is partly my own neuroses about emotional intimacy, and partly because she is a very fragile person -- at any perceived conflict or difficult conversation she will cry and walk out. I had wanted to see a marriage counselor for years, to deal with this issue, but I never asked for it because of this perceived fragility. The other piece of our interpersonal dysfunction is that she has very low self-esteem and because of that finds it very difficult to admit any fault or flaw in herself. This sounds counterintuitive but my sense is that her image of herself is so poor that to verbalize any flaw or wrongdoing just makes it feel too painfully real for her. She literally has never apologized for anything unless I have specifically asked her to, and then only grudgingly. Instead she is extremely defensive. This is not me making a case, but offering a for instance: I have asked her many times, very nicely, to please do a better job putting away stuff when she's done in the kitchen. Her response is always to catalog the many times that I don't do that, and then to make a show over the next X days of catching me leaving something out and reminding me to put it away. This pattern has played out many times. I'll say that I don't mind being reminded, it helps keep the house cleaner, but that it seems that she's only just suddenly caring about [issue]. She says she always noticed [my failures] but never wanted to say anything because conflict.
So that was a minor example, but now the same pattern is playing out with our marriage as a whole. After she mentioned she was considering our entire marriage, I began considering it too. I actually came to feel that part of the reason I did what I did was a subconscious effort at forcing some confrontation over all these issues that had never been discussed. And since the affair, we've had deeper conversations, and I've been able to be more emotionally intimate than has ever been the case.
So now our marriage counseling sessions are about problems in our marriage, which makes for very difficult conversations because it's 25 years of stuff that never got discussed. However our therapist says it makes sense to go here because you can't uncouple the marriage from the affair. But following her pattern, when I bring up something I was unhappy about, my wife takes zero responsibility and either denies the truth of it, or lists all the related things I did made her unhappy. Every one I am willing to either own and work on (90% of it), or else discuss what I could do differently to address her perception.
But she just gets very insulted and hurt that I have the audacity to claim to have been unhappy, and angry at my negligence in never having addressed it. Remember how she said that she was considering the entirety of the marriage in deciding whether to stay together? It's like that never happened. Ever since I began sharing my perceptions of the problems in our marriage, she has been focused on the insult to her that I could have had problems in what she thought was a happy marriage. To the point that she's saying things that make it sound like my expressions of unhappiness are as much a betrayal to her as the affair.
I've told our therapist privately that my biggest fear is that our marriage will surivive my affair but be brought down by the counseling, because our patterns of interacting around conflict are so dysfunctional, and suddenly we have to make up for so much lost time with my unfaithfulness hanging over our heads. So I'm sitting here in my apartment in Sad Dad Arms thinking that far from helping her gain clarity, the next nine weeks are going to be marked by weekly 60-minute battles, tears, and constant exposure of long-buried resentments. I've told my wife I don't see any way our marriage survives this, but she says to give the process a chance, because the alternative (me moving back in) is just too painful for her.
One final note: I have begged her to seek some individual counseling also, and she refuses, literally saying "what can a therapist do for me?" I take that to mean that therapy is for fixing yourself and that I'm the broken one, not her.
So how do I approach our couples counseling under these circumstances? I don't know how to get my wife to stop playing defense. I feel like it makes counseling pointless, but counseling is the only thread I have right now to save my family. Advice?
Background:
This year I had a six week emotional and physical affair that ended when my wife discovered it. I admitted to the emotional piece immediately but it took me three months to admit to the rest. This caused her incalculable pain. We're married 25 years this year and neither of us has been unfaithful before.
I am deeply remorseful, began seeing a therapist immediately, and I'm working hard to be a better father, husband, and man. I've put this specific relationship behind me and I'm working on the vulnerabilities that contributed to it.
After the final disclosure we separated "in-house," meaning separate bedrooms and very little contact, except around our teenage son, who remained unaware of any problem (take my word on that). This went on for two months while we saw a couples counselor once a week. During this period my wife asked me to move out of the house altogether, to give her some emotional distance from me. We agreed on three months, which financially is all we can do. This began August 1st. We've agreed that I move back in Nov. 1. The couples counseling has continued.
I was vehemently opposed to moving out because, money, because our son, and because while living together was difficult, especially for her, we were gradually getting along better and having very productive conversations. The separation has cut that down to one hour, once a week. But I agreed because I owe her whatever she needs to recover from what I did to her.
Here's the weird dynamic. At one point before I moved out, she told me that in deciding whether to stay married to me, she wasn't just considering the affair -- she was considering the entirety of our marriage. Up to then all discussions had been about the affair only.
We both had been experiencing some low-grade unhappiness, me probably more than her, for years. We have been awful communicators our entire marriage. For my part this is partly my own neuroses about emotional intimacy, and partly because she is a very fragile person -- at any perceived conflict or difficult conversation she will cry and walk out. I had wanted to see a marriage counselor for years, to deal with this issue, but I never asked for it because of this perceived fragility. The other piece of our interpersonal dysfunction is that she has very low self-esteem and because of that finds it very difficult to admit any fault or flaw in herself. This sounds counterintuitive but my sense is that her image of herself is so poor that to verbalize any flaw or wrongdoing just makes it feel too painfully real for her. She literally has never apologized for anything unless I have specifically asked her to, and then only grudgingly. Instead she is extremely defensive. This is not me making a case, but offering a for instance: I have asked her many times, very nicely, to please do a better job putting away stuff when she's done in the kitchen. Her response is always to catalog the many times that I don't do that, and then to make a show over the next X days of catching me leaving something out and reminding me to put it away. This pattern has played out many times. I'll say that I don't mind being reminded, it helps keep the house cleaner, but that it seems that she's only just suddenly caring about [issue]. She says she always noticed [my failures] but never wanted to say anything because conflict.
So that was a minor example, but now the same pattern is playing out with our marriage as a whole. After she mentioned she was considering our entire marriage, I began considering it too. I actually came to feel that part of the reason I did what I did was a subconscious effort at forcing some confrontation over all these issues that had never been discussed. And since the affair, we've had deeper conversations, and I've been able to be more emotionally intimate than has ever been the case.
So now our marriage counseling sessions are about problems in our marriage, which makes for very difficult conversations because it's 25 years of stuff that never got discussed. However our therapist says it makes sense to go here because you can't uncouple the marriage from the affair. But following her pattern, when I bring up something I was unhappy about, my wife takes zero responsibility and either denies the truth of it, or lists all the related things I did made her unhappy. Every one I am willing to either own and work on (90% of it), or else discuss what I could do differently to address her perception.
But she just gets very insulted and hurt that I have the audacity to claim to have been unhappy, and angry at my negligence in never having addressed it. Remember how she said that she was considering the entirety of the marriage in deciding whether to stay together? It's like that never happened. Ever since I began sharing my perceptions of the problems in our marriage, she has been focused on the insult to her that I could have had problems in what she thought was a happy marriage. To the point that she's saying things that make it sound like my expressions of unhappiness are as much a betrayal to her as the affair.
I've told our therapist privately that my biggest fear is that our marriage will surivive my affair but be brought down by the counseling, because our patterns of interacting around conflict are so dysfunctional, and suddenly we have to make up for so much lost time with my unfaithfulness hanging over our heads. So I'm sitting here in my apartment in Sad Dad Arms thinking that far from helping her gain clarity, the next nine weeks are going to be marked by weekly 60-minute battles, tears, and constant exposure of long-buried resentments. I've told my wife I don't see any way our marriage survives this, but she says to give the process a chance, because the alternative (me moving back in) is just too painful for her.
One final note: I have begged her to seek some individual counseling also, and she refuses, literally saying "what can a therapist do for me?" I take that to mean that therapy is for fixing yourself and that I'm the broken one, not her.
So how do I approach our couples counseling under these circumstances? I don't know how to get my wife to stop playing defense. I feel like it makes counseling pointless, but counseling is the only thread I have right now to save my family. Advice?
I would be optimistic if anywhere in here you wrote about shared good times (not just "productive conversations"), a sense of affection between the two of you, an enjoyable sex life (even if it's just once in a while), or a sense of loyalty even (your affair destroyed that).
What is there left to save here, other than money and the idea that it's better for your teenage son? I would bring it up in counseling--ask your wife and the counselor what the reasons to save the marriage are. Obligation and finances aren't really workable ideas in this era of self-fulfillment as you learned when you were driven to an affair based on what was lacking in your marriage.
posted by tk at 5:29 AM on August 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
What is there left to save here, other than money and the idea that it's better for your teenage son? I would bring it up in counseling--ask your wife and the counselor what the reasons to save the marriage are. Obligation and finances aren't really workable ideas in this era of self-fulfillment as you learned when you were driven to an affair based on what was lacking in your marriage.
posted by tk at 5:29 AM on August 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
"This caused her incalculable pain."
Admitting this is great - but the thing is, you're trying to put a cap on her incalculable pain. It's like "You have three months, lady - start recovering already!"
I'm reading that you believe you've done all the right things - admitting the emotional affair, then the physical affair, then going to therapy, then confessing years of unhappiness not just with the marriage, but with her as a person. But after doing something incredibly hurtful, what you're saying in therapy is a little more probing in the wound. Counseling isn't the healing part - it's the surgery part. Healing comes with time, after taking care of what's come out of working on repairing the marriage.
You both should be considering the entirety of the relationship. She gets to be unhappy with you too, not because of the affair, though unfaithfulness is really punishing - but because she finally has permission and guidance from the therapist to confront you on what sounds like a controlling, critical, conflicted marriage. She is gaining a voice in this, and she's perhaps seeing that life without long-buried resentments feels kind of good, especially if they range from how she shares in the household upkeep, to how she reacts to being criticized.
Your minor example is actually a rather big thing, and her reaction you described, while a passive-aggressive way of letting you know that your frequent dissatisfaction with her is hard to live with, illustrates to me that you're a bit of a right-fighter.
You want her to stop playing defense because you want to win this, because you seem to feel that you've done all the work to make it better and it's time to move on - but for your own comfort, both financial and emotional, not because the marriage is already better.
You say want her to gain clarity, but only to see you as the guy that's completed a course in "I Messed Up Big Time So I Fixed It." I'm wondering if those conversations you thought were so productive were further examples of "do a better job putting away stuff in the kitchen" and that's why she needed more space to think.
You're forgetting that she gets to have 25 years worth of feelings too, and instead of suppressing them in order to keep the household on an even keel in the wake of your general discontent, she's finally got everything it takes (a prompt, personal space, marriage counseling) to examine her deeper feelings -- what she owns, and what came about in reaction to partnering with you.
You ask about changing her perception of what you did to make her unhappy, but why can't you admit that you made her just as unhappy as she made you? Your post here is critical of her in so many ways, and puts the state of being married above all.
Admittedly I'm coming at this from personal experience, as someone whose husband had an affair because he was unsatisfied too. When the therapist we were seeing told him he needed to break off the affair while we worked on our marriage, he said "But if the marriage doesn't work out, then I'll have no one!"
Perhaps you need this time alone too, more than you think you do. Your expressed desire to get back to a problematic marriage doesn't seem to come from loving your wife and wanting what's best for her because you care about her as a person - you seem to care about having a wife that is emotionally well enough to function in the context of a marriage where you set the terms and conditions.
Maybe you need "no one" for a while too, to see what it's like to live with yourself. If your living situation goes back to what it was too quickly, it's easy to fall back into old patterns and resentments. A 25 year marriage is a huge investment, but it doesn't mean it was a good marriage. You were willing to throw it away for an affair - she is willing to work through some hard stuff to keep it.
Knowing and talking all the things that are wrong, what she did and what you did, isn't doing the work - acting to amend your relationship with the person you married, not your relationship to the marriage, is doing the work.
How to you approach counseling? You take your licks.
posted by peagood at 5:30 AM on August 26, 2015 [64 favorites]
Admitting this is great - but the thing is, you're trying to put a cap on her incalculable pain. It's like "You have three months, lady - start recovering already!"
I'm reading that you believe you've done all the right things - admitting the emotional affair, then the physical affair, then going to therapy, then confessing years of unhappiness not just with the marriage, but with her as a person. But after doing something incredibly hurtful, what you're saying in therapy is a little more probing in the wound. Counseling isn't the healing part - it's the surgery part. Healing comes with time, after taking care of what's come out of working on repairing the marriage.
You both should be considering the entirety of the relationship. She gets to be unhappy with you too, not because of the affair, though unfaithfulness is really punishing - but because she finally has permission and guidance from the therapist to confront you on what sounds like a controlling, critical, conflicted marriage. She is gaining a voice in this, and she's perhaps seeing that life without long-buried resentments feels kind of good, especially if they range from how she shares in the household upkeep, to how she reacts to being criticized.
Your minor example is actually a rather big thing, and her reaction you described, while a passive-aggressive way of letting you know that your frequent dissatisfaction with her is hard to live with, illustrates to me that you're a bit of a right-fighter.
You want her to stop playing defense because you want to win this, because you seem to feel that you've done all the work to make it better and it's time to move on - but for your own comfort, both financial and emotional, not because the marriage is already better.
You say want her to gain clarity, but only to see you as the guy that's completed a course in "I Messed Up Big Time So I Fixed It." I'm wondering if those conversations you thought were so productive were further examples of "do a better job putting away stuff in the kitchen" and that's why she needed more space to think.
You're forgetting that she gets to have 25 years worth of feelings too, and instead of suppressing them in order to keep the household on an even keel in the wake of your general discontent, she's finally got everything it takes (a prompt, personal space, marriage counseling) to examine her deeper feelings -- what she owns, and what came about in reaction to partnering with you.
You ask about changing her perception of what you did to make her unhappy, but why can't you admit that you made her just as unhappy as she made you? Your post here is critical of her in so many ways, and puts the state of being married above all.
Admittedly I'm coming at this from personal experience, as someone whose husband had an affair because he was unsatisfied too. When the therapist we were seeing told him he needed to break off the affair while we worked on our marriage, he said "But if the marriage doesn't work out, then I'll have no one!"
Perhaps you need this time alone too, more than you think you do. Your expressed desire to get back to a problematic marriage doesn't seem to come from loving your wife and wanting what's best for her because you care about her as a person - you seem to care about having a wife that is emotionally well enough to function in the context of a marriage where you set the terms and conditions.
Maybe you need "no one" for a while too, to see what it's like to live with yourself. If your living situation goes back to what it was too quickly, it's easy to fall back into old patterns and resentments. A 25 year marriage is a huge investment, but it doesn't mean it was a good marriage. You were willing to throw it away for an affair - she is willing to work through some hard stuff to keep it.
Knowing and talking all the things that are wrong, what she did and what you did, isn't doing the work - acting to amend your relationship with the person you married, not your relationship to the marriage, is doing the work.
How to you approach counseling? You take your licks.
posted by peagood at 5:30 AM on August 26, 2015 [64 favorites]
Here's the weird dynamic. At one point before I moved out, she told me that in deciding whether to stay married to me, she wasn't just considering the affair -- she was considering the entirety of our marriage. Up to then all discussions had been about the affair only.
I don't actually think this is a weird dynamic at all; I think it is a very common one.
It sounds like you two had a lot of issues for a very long time, whether you perceived them as core to "a happy marriage" or not. Your response was an affair. For her the affair was the proverbial straw that caused her to bring the whole relationship into question. Now you have a laundry-list of issues and she's angry and has her own list in response. That is basically how years of unresolved conflict end up.
I'm not optimistic that you would be happy for the next 25 years even if you did move back in.
My advice:
1. Your focus in counselling should not be on whether you are right or wrong, or your marriage can be saved. It should be on listening to your estranged wife, and then sharing your truth.
It's not about who wins and scores (playing defence?). It's about you each getting to know the person in front of you, in order to decide whether you want to have a relationship going forward. After that it might be about developing better tools. But right now, you're not living together as partners. Just listen. Try repeating back what you hear and leaving it there without deciding whether she's justified, whether you're more willing to discuss issues, etc. Just try to understand her. And then when it's your turn, just share what you are feeling and thinking without trying to advocate for whether you are right or not.
2. Start building the life that will work post-divorce, focusing on being there for your son and forging your bond apart from where the parents live.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:42 AM on August 26, 2015 [20 favorites]
I don't actually think this is a weird dynamic at all; I think it is a very common one.
It sounds like you two had a lot of issues for a very long time, whether you perceived them as core to "a happy marriage" or not. Your response was an affair. For her the affair was the proverbial straw that caused her to bring the whole relationship into question. Now you have a laundry-list of issues and she's angry and has her own list in response. That is basically how years of unresolved conflict end up.
I'm not optimistic that you would be happy for the next 25 years even if you did move back in.
My advice:
1. Your focus in counselling should not be on whether you are right or wrong, or your marriage can be saved. It should be on listening to your estranged wife, and then sharing your truth.
It's not about who wins and scores (playing defence?). It's about you each getting to know the person in front of you, in order to decide whether you want to have a relationship going forward. After that it might be about developing better tools. But right now, you're not living together as partners. Just listen. Try repeating back what you hear and leaving it there without deciding whether she's justified, whether you're more willing to discuss issues, etc. Just try to understand her. And then when it's your turn, just share what you are feeling and thinking without trying to advocate for whether you are right or not.
2. Start building the life that will work post-divorce, focusing on being there for your son and forging your bond apart from where the parents live.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:42 AM on August 26, 2015 [20 favorites]
Your expectations that you can "get your wife to stop playing defense" and engage in meaningful couples therapy with your goal of moving back in together, and yet completely avoid her "tears and the uncovering of long-buried resentments" is massively unrealistic right now.
She does not trust you. The fact that it took you 3 months to admit to the physical affair after you had disclosed the emotional affair would be a huge deal breaker for a lot of people. Be grateful she is even willing to engage in the couples therapy process with you at all. You need to understand that her having some defense mechanisms in place right now is an understandable reaction to being gaslighted and lied to for months on end. You sound extremely impatient with her even though you say you "owe" her the chance to recover... As long as she wraps this up by Nov 1st or something?? Nope.
Honestly, this does not read like you respect and admire your wife at all. Seems like if it weren't for your worries about your son and your fears of losing money, you'd have left this marriage already. I think you do not want to be married to this particular woman at all, but you like the structure of an intact, two-parent home for your son.
posted by hush at 5:48 AM on August 26, 2015 [58 favorites]
She does not trust you. The fact that it took you 3 months to admit to the physical affair after you had disclosed the emotional affair would be a huge deal breaker for a lot of people. Be grateful she is even willing to engage in the couples therapy process with you at all. You need to understand that her having some defense mechanisms in place right now is an understandable reaction to being gaslighted and lied to for months on end. You sound extremely impatient with her even though you say you "owe" her the chance to recover... As long as she wraps this up by Nov 1st or something?? Nope.
Honestly, this does not read like you respect and admire your wife at all. Seems like if it weren't for your worries about your son and your fears of losing money, you'd have left this marriage already. I think you do not want to be married to this particular woman at all, but you like the structure of an intact, two-parent home for your son.
posted by hush at 5:48 AM on August 26, 2015 [58 favorites]
If I'm working back from your timeline, then it seems that your wife found out about the physical aspect of your affair in June, after learning about the emotional aspect in March or April.
I have to say, if this is the case, then that wound is still incredibly fresh. You are in the very early days of the infidelity grieving process. Your expressions of unhappiness in the marriage (while undoubtedly important to hash out in counseling as a way of figuring out the road to the affair and how, if you do want to save your marriage, not to travel down that route again) probably really (and I mean REALLY) still sting right now, so soon after the discovery of, essentially, a second (and maybe more profound for your wife in terms of the physical aspect of the affair) betrayal and deception.
Others have chimed in with wise words close reading the general tenor of your question and with hard but important questions about whether or not YOU want this marriage...but having been through something similar before myself (where my husband had the affair), when I was in your wife's shoes at this stage of the game, I just really needed to hear remorse and reassurance....not what was wrong with me or the myriad reasons why my husband was unhappy in the first place or still unhappy with aspects of my personality or how I conducted my half of the relationship.
In hindsight, the fact that so much of our couples' counseling after the affair took on the kind of tenor of your question also probably reveals the ways my husband was realizing throughout that process that affair or no affair, he really didn't want to be married to me. We're divorced now. And - for what it's worth - it wasn't as devastating to our kiddo as we thought it would be; we're both better off financially, much to our surprise; we're both in rewarding, happy new partnerships.
posted by pinkacademic at 6:05 AM on August 26, 2015 [17 favorites]
I have to say, if this is the case, then that wound is still incredibly fresh. You are in the very early days of the infidelity grieving process. Your expressions of unhappiness in the marriage (while undoubtedly important to hash out in counseling as a way of figuring out the road to the affair and how, if you do want to save your marriage, not to travel down that route again) probably really (and I mean REALLY) still sting right now, so soon after the discovery of, essentially, a second (and maybe more profound for your wife in terms of the physical aspect of the affair) betrayal and deception.
Others have chimed in with wise words close reading the general tenor of your question and with hard but important questions about whether or not YOU want this marriage...but having been through something similar before myself (where my husband had the affair), when I was in your wife's shoes at this stage of the game, I just really needed to hear remorse and reassurance....not what was wrong with me or the myriad reasons why my husband was unhappy in the first place or still unhappy with aspects of my personality or how I conducted my half of the relationship.
In hindsight, the fact that so much of our couples' counseling after the affair took on the kind of tenor of your question also probably reveals the ways my husband was realizing throughout that process that affair or no affair, he really didn't want to be married to me. We're divorced now. And - for what it's worth - it wasn't as devastating to our kiddo as we thought it would be; we're both better off financially, much to our surprise; we're both in rewarding, happy new partnerships.
posted by pinkacademic at 6:05 AM on August 26, 2015 [17 favorites]
If you were my parents, I would pray for you to divorce. All these mechanisms of eggshell-stepping, emotion-avoidance, quiet vengeful conflict and secret-keeping sound horrific. What does this kind of conflict-avoidance and score-keeping in a household do to a kid, even when both of you love him and treat him well?
I agree that the affair was an attempt to break all this garbage up. You took a baseball bat to the china case. Honestly... in some ways, that's great? Everyone's locked into their corrals and masks and honestly SOMEONE needs to just start yelling in therapy. Even if it's you.
It's got to get uglier before it gets better. You wish you were at the end of the road here, I know. You're actually kind of at the beginning.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 6:12 AM on August 26, 2015 [21 favorites]
I agree that the affair was an attempt to break all this garbage up. You took a baseball bat to the china case. Honestly... in some ways, that's great? Everyone's locked into their corrals and masks and honestly SOMEONE needs to just start yelling in therapy. Even if it's you.
It's got to get uglier before it gets better. You wish you were at the end of the road here, I know. You're actually kind of at the beginning.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 6:12 AM on August 26, 2015 [21 favorites]
I agree with a lot of what everyone else is saying but if you honestly wanted to make it work I think this is the most important step.
You really need to drop all the antagonism that you've clearly read into your wife's actions. I know it's easy to do and sometimes it's more fun to maintain the feeling of being completely in the right but if you keep seeing everything she does as this passive aggressive jab and then only focusing on that, you're going to go nowhere.
Instead of operating from this idea of her that you've built up in your head that may or may not be right, you two need to sit down and actually talk and listen to each other.
But I think you're not at that point yet, because as people have rightfully pointed out, your wife clearly isn't done dealing with the emotional pain she's in and you're attempts to completely steamroll that in the name of family and money isn't helpful.
Right now you really need to put your own stuff aside and deal with what's going on with your wife. Don't worry, you will get your time, but if you really want to work this out, you really need to focus on her.
posted by KernalM at 6:23 AM on August 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
You really need to drop all the antagonism that you've clearly read into your wife's actions. I know it's easy to do and sometimes it's more fun to maintain the feeling of being completely in the right but if you keep seeing everything she does as this passive aggressive jab and then only focusing on that, you're going to go nowhere.
Instead of operating from this idea of her that you've built up in your head that may or may not be right, you two need to sit down and actually talk and listen to each other.
But I think you're not at that point yet, because as people have rightfully pointed out, your wife clearly isn't done dealing with the emotional pain she's in and you're attempts to completely steamroll that in the name of family and money isn't helpful.
Right now you really need to put your own stuff aside and deal with what's going on with your wife. Don't worry, you will get your time, but if you really want to work this out, you really need to focus on her.
posted by KernalM at 6:23 AM on August 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
You need to start dealing with the fact that your marriages was 99.9% over by the time you started having the affair. Nobody "did" anything specific. Sounds like you both did a lot of stuff to lead to this point. The only way you can save the relationship in any form is if you dedicate yourself to being kind to your wife no matter what happens. If she wants to talk about the past, bear it. If she wants to point fingers, let her. That doesn't earn you forgiveness though, nothing can. Just chill with the demands and the ultimatums and the opinions. Find ways to enjoy your life, sure. But marriage-wise it's time to foster an undemanding, easygoing friendship based on respect (and your deference to her needs) rather than some kind of mutually beneficial partnership.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:26 AM on August 26, 2015
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:26 AM on August 26, 2015
Ok, the one thing I can say for sure is that your wife is not going to forgive you and go back to being in a couple with you by November 1st. A massive looming deadline is really counterproductive and stressful and it puts pressure on the person who got wronged, which is her.
So this living apart thing is expensive and fraught (because of your son). But you can't force a decision on her by Nov. 1 if you want her buy in. If you do, she'll likely choose life without you.
Do not make this her problem. You Figure out how to stay out of the house for as long as it takes her. Because you accept full responsibility for your betrayal and you do whatever it takes to help your wife come to terms with it. That includes no deadlines.
Unless you are okay with breaking up, which maybe you should if you were both so unhappy. Son will survive a divorce as long as you treat each other respectfully. What he won't dealwith well is if his parents treat each other badly, mind games, distrust, loaded atmosphere etc.)
posted by Omnomnom at 6:31 AM on August 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
So this living apart thing is expensive and fraught (because of your son). But you can't force a decision on her by Nov. 1 if you want her buy in. If you do, she'll likely choose life without you.
Do not make this her problem. You Figure out how to stay out of the house for as long as it takes her. Because you accept full responsibility for your betrayal and you do whatever it takes to help your wife come to terms with it. That includes no deadlines.
Unless you are okay with breaking up, which maybe you should if you were both so unhappy. Son will survive a divorce as long as you treat each other respectfully. What he won't dealwith well is if his parents treat each other badly, mind games, distrust, loaded atmosphere etc.)
posted by Omnomnom at 6:31 AM on August 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
We have been awful communicators our entire marriage.
Whoa buddy, are you ever right there. This does sound awful.
It sounds like you guys have been talking at each other for a long time. Now couples therapy is the Festivus Airing of Grievances at long last. Yikes.
What does your therapist say when you guys bring up these grievances? I imagine that s/he validates your own hurt and encourages you to see the issue from the other person's point of view, or tries to get you to move past the specific thing you are unhappy about and see the disagreement as part of a bigger picture, right?
The point isn't mediating every single slight, even though that's how it probably feels to you now. The therapist is showing you what to do when disagreements arise. You have to air these things so you can see how to move past them. Then you have to practice doing that every time someone leaves a sticky glass full of Coke on the coffee table, for the rest of your lives. You can't do that if you are still stuck on why leaving the glass is WRONG.
Definitely won't happen by November 1st, unfortunately. You're learning how to life together, 25 years later. I'm sorry. :-( If it helps, I'm pulling for you, though!
posted by chainsofreedom at 6:45 AM on August 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Whoa buddy, are you ever right there. This does sound awful.
It sounds like you guys have been talking at each other for a long time. Now couples therapy is the Festivus Airing of Grievances at long last. Yikes.
What does your therapist say when you guys bring up these grievances? I imagine that s/he validates your own hurt and encourages you to see the issue from the other person's point of view, or tries to get you to move past the specific thing you are unhappy about and see the disagreement as part of a bigger picture, right?
The point isn't mediating every single slight, even though that's how it probably feels to you now. The therapist is showing you what to do when disagreements arise. You have to air these things so you can see how to move past them. Then you have to practice doing that every time someone leaves a sticky glass full of Coke on the coffee table, for the rest of your lives. You can't do that if you are still stuck on why leaving the glass is WRONG.
Definitely won't happen by November 1st, unfortunately. You're learning how to life together, 25 years later. I'm sorry. :-( If it helps, I'm pulling for you, though!
posted by chainsofreedom at 6:45 AM on August 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've got a bunch of John Gottman links in my profile. His advice on the characteristics of a successful marriage are spot on. He has books. read.
You fucked up. Of course your wife is considering the whole of the marriage as she decides if she wants to continue. Plain common sense.
There is no calculus, and you both think there is. You did this n times, you did that x times. Nope. You have to try hard to live reasonably and to be really kind to each other. Sweet, loving, considerate.
Want to make the therapy really work? Listen. Listen more. Listen hard to your wife, and listen with an open mind and heart, and do that even if she doesn't. You may get divorced, but you will do so with far more clarity.
Your child is experiencing this crisis, and you are in denial about it. Give your kid some respect and talk to him. He'll learn, he'll deal with it, and you'll have an actual relationship with him. Tell him repeatedly that it's not his fault, that you love him and will keep loving him.
posted by theora55 at 6:45 AM on August 26, 2015 [11 favorites]
You fucked up. Of course your wife is considering the whole of the marriage as she decides if she wants to continue. Plain common sense.
There is no calculus, and you both think there is. You did this n times, you did that x times. Nope. You have to try hard to live reasonably and to be really kind to each other. Sweet, loving, considerate.
Want to make the therapy really work? Listen. Listen more. Listen hard to your wife, and listen with an open mind and heart, and do that even if she doesn't. You may get divorced, but you will do so with far more clarity.
Your child is experiencing this crisis, and you are in denial about it. Give your kid some respect and talk to him. He'll learn, he'll deal with it, and you'll have an actual relationship with him. Tell him repeatedly that it's not his fault, that you love him and will keep loving him.
posted by theora55 at 6:45 AM on August 26, 2015 [11 favorites]
The Easter bunny only brings one basket to my three children. In it is enough for them to share. It has always been this way and they are very happy with it. When I was a kid, the bunny brought three baskets and my brothers and I spent all day comparing the baskets and trading stuff. It wasn't as much fun. My point is, stop looking in your wife's basket. Her insecurities and personality issues are not yours to fix. Your own basket needs looking at. You wrecked a 25 year marriage and you are still complaining about how she tidies up the kitchen. I think your marriage counselor is leading you both down the wrong road. I think you desperately need a real therapist, just for you, to keep you focused on your issues and not so much on hers. It was your job as a husband to make her feel loved and safe. You didn't do your job. You can't now blame her because she's felt insecure all these years. Fix your own basket.
I would stop the marriage counseling immediately, take a few months to see to your damage, and then ask your wife out on a date. Do everything for her that you did for this other woman. It's going to take time for her to trust you again.
Every time that you criticize her, you push her away even more. You can be right and without her or you can be compassionate and happy. It's up to you.
posted by myselfasme at 6:46 AM on August 26, 2015 [31 favorites]
I would stop the marriage counseling immediately, take a few months to see to your damage, and then ask your wife out on a date. Do everything for her that you did for this other woman. It's going to take time for her to trust you again.
Every time that you criticize her, you push her away even more. You can be right and without her or you can be compassionate and happy. It's up to you.
posted by myselfasme at 6:46 AM on August 26, 2015 [31 favorites]
This year I had a six week emotional and physical affair that ended when my wife discovered it. I admitted to the emotional piece immediately but it took me three months to admit to the rest.
One thing that impresses me is how quantitative and sort of scientistic your description sounds. Getting over an affair is not going to be like that. It's going to be much more of a two steps forward, one back kind of thing. It's an extremely complicated process, and not that rational. You're thinking there's this piece, there's that piece and I'm responsible for this percentage.In fact, even if she were 100% responsible, she could end the relationship tomorrow. I think you have to be open to that possibility.
posted by BibiRose at 6:59 AM on August 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
One thing that impresses me is how quantitative and sort of scientistic your description sounds. Getting over an affair is not going to be like that. It's going to be much more of a two steps forward, one back kind of thing. It's an extremely complicated process, and not that rational. You're thinking there's this piece, there's that piece and I'm responsible for this percentage.In fact, even if she were 100% responsible, she could end the relationship tomorrow. I think you have to be open to that possibility.
posted by BibiRose at 6:59 AM on August 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
I don't know how to get my wife to stop playing defense.
You need to stop playing offense.
So much of your description above goes by the pattern of: state a general problem, then describe why it's your wife's fault, either by her actions or her character. Hint: it's not all her fault.
As tk noted, you don't say anything positive about this person (I almost wonder why you want to stay married to her) or your 25 years of marriage. You passively note that you do owe her whatever it takes, but it really sounds like you're waiting for her to do the fixing, or be fixed so that you can go on with your life.
You stop playing offense by going to a therapist and specifically asking that person to call your bluff every time you blame your wife. You need to do this so you can look inwards and ask yourself what your contribution is to all of this, so that you can think about the actions you can take to heal. And focus on how you can change for the better. Not how your wife can change, not how your wife can heal, not what your wife can do: what YOU do.
posted by Dashy at 7:30 AM on August 26, 2015 [28 favorites]
You need to stop playing offense.
So much of your description above goes by the pattern of: state a general problem, then describe why it's your wife's fault, either by her actions or her character. Hint: it's not all her fault.
As tk noted, you don't say anything positive about this person (I almost wonder why you want to stay married to her) or your 25 years of marriage. You passively note that you do owe her whatever it takes, but it really sounds like you're waiting for her to do the fixing, or be fixed so that you can go on with your life.
You stop playing offense by going to a therapist and specifically asking that person to call your bluff every time you blame your wife. You need to do this so you can look inwards and ask yourself what your contribution is to all of this, so that you can think about the actions you can take to heal. And focus on how you can change for the better. Not how your wife can change, not how your wife can heal, not what your wife can do: what YOU do.
posted by Dashy at 7:30 AM on August 26, 2015 [28 favorites]
Sorry for you both having such a difficult time. I don't have any expertise in what I'm going to say here (is that just always assumed on the Internet?). I don't see many comments saying that maybe this therapy or therapist isn't the right direction.
Marriage therapy is different than individual therapy. Individual therapy can discuss one reality because there is only one person. Marriage therapy cannot discuss reality because there are two people and they have different realities. Multiply this by every discussion being based on the past so it is all perceptions of memories plus feelings. This is fiction. I would love to see statistics on the marriage therapy results (realizing this would be hard to quantify - starting with the self-selection of sample who are having marriage troubles).
I suspect that talking it out and looking into the details of a marriage are much harder on a (typical gender stereotype) male partner. (I am female.) The nature of talk couples therapy seems to stack the deck against the male. I could be wrong here but I suspect that the male is going to just end up feeling bad for a lot of things. I have Reasons and may be very wrong. Reasons are mostly related to stereotypical, gendered cultural impact on marriages.
Marriage is not a math formula. Not all the problems need to come up with an answer. I wonder if marriage therapy should really focus only on the present and going forward as in starting over with the here and now if, a big if, you both want to try that. Or possibly try another couples therapist.
posted by RoadScholar at 7:54 AM on August 26, 2015
Marriage therapy is different than individual therapy. Individual therapy can discuss one reality because there is only one person. Marriage therapy cannot discuss reality because there are two people and they have different realities. Multiply this by every discussion being based on the past so it is all perceptions of memories plus feelings. This is fiction. I would love to see statistics on the marriage therapy results (realizing this would be hard to quantify - starting with the self-selection of sample who are having marriage troubles).
I suspect that talking it out and looking into the details of a marriage are much harder on a (typical gender stereotype) male partner. (I am female.) The nature of talk couples therapy seems to stack the deck against the male. I could be wrong here but I suspect that the male is going to just end up feeling bad for a lot of things. I have Reasons and may be very wrong. Reasons are mostly related to stereotypical, gendered cultural impact on marriages.
Marriage is not a math formula. Not all the problems need to come up with an answer. I wonder if marriage therapy should really focus only on the present and going forward as in starting over with the here and now if, a big if, you both want to try that. Or possibly try another couples therapist.
posted by RoadScholar at 7:54 AM on August 26, 2015
I actually came to feel that part of the reason I did what I did was a subconscious effort at forcing some confrontation over all these issues that had never been discussed.
Ever since I began sharing my perceptions of the problems in our marriage, she has been focused on the insult to her that I could have had problems in what she thought was a happy marriage. To the point that she's saying things that make it sound like my expressions of unhappiness are as much a betrayal to her as the affair.
To address these two sections together, I wonder if what you felt like you were saying was "I have been unhappy for a long time and I needed something to change and this is how that manifested" and what she is hearing is "I had an affair because I've always been unhappy in our marriage which means really it's kind of because of you and it's your responsibility that this happened." If she's reacting this way, I don't think those emotions are unreasonable (and, frankly, in this situation any emotions she has are completely reasonable and you need to understand and respect that and give her space to feel those things); as others have pointed out, this is still pretty fresh for her and it sounds like she's gone through a LOT including a ton of you lying for MONTHS. It seems like you're basically giving her the same amount of time to heal that you gave yourself to lie (three months) and you don't get to set the timeline for her coping with this.
I don't know that this is the case but if I experienced something as devastating as a spouse having an affair that lasted over a month and then lying to me about it for months after that I would be questioning everything and if the person then told me something that sounded like "this was coming for a long time because I was unhappy, why didn't you see that?" I would fixate on that too.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 8:03 AM on August 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
Ever since I began sharing my perceptions of the problems in our marriage, she has been focused on the insult to her that I could have had problems in what she thought was a happy marriage. To the point that she's saying things that make it sound like my expressions of unhappiness are as much a betrayal to her as the affair.
To address these two sections together, I wonder if what you felt like you were saying was "I have been unhappy for a long time and I needed something to change and this is how that manifested" and what she is hearing is "I had an affair because I've always been unhappy in our marriage which means really it's kind of because of you and it's your responsibility that this happened." If she's reacting this way, I don't think those emotions are unreasonable (and, frankly, in this situation any emotions she has are completely reasonable and you need to understand and respect that and give her space to feel those things); as others have pointed out, this is still pretty fresh for her and it sounds like she's gone through a LOT including a ton of you lying for MONTHS. It seems like you're basically giving her the same amount of time to heal that you gave yourself to lie (three months) and you don't get to set the timeline for her coping with this.
I don't know that this is the case but if I experienced something as devastating as a spouse having an affair that lasted over a month and then lying to me about it for months after that I would be questioning everything and if the person then told me something that sounded like "this was coming for a long time because I was unhappy, why didn't you see that?" I would fixate on that too.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 8:03 AM on August 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
Just based on what you wrote, you seem to be happy telling your wife how she needs to improve, and she would rather fix things as she sees them. I suppose both are acceptable ways of dealing with household issues, but the two don't necessarily work well together, and you both have been ignoring it except for occasional blow-ups. Your wife now feels like she's been mostly giving you a pass for 25 years, and was rewarded with being cheated on. Maybe there's a way your two communication styles could mesh, but at this point she understandably doesn't feel like giving you any ground.
Your wife's reaction of "playing defense" is understandable, not just in the context of her personality, but also your affair, subsequent 3 months to fully come clean, and apparent continued evidence of not respecting her needs by vehemently opposing moving out (it doesn't matter if you feel you reasonably voiced objections, if your initial response was anything but OK, let's make that work, you were clearly showing her that you don't consider her needs valid).
You've demonstrated repeatedly that she can't trust you to look out for her. And you don't even look out for yourself in a healthy way: cheating on your wife, who you say has low self-esteem, to blow things up rather than being forthright. Except now that things are blown up, you're happy to ignore her needs (time alone, continued counseling)and point out even more of her faults. She may also be waiting for the other shoe to drop since the truth of the affair took so long to come out.
The fact that you think her reaction is weird, something she's probably picking up, means you don't really see her reactions as valid...again, more evidence that she can't really trust you and needs to keep her defenses up.
I'm not saying your wife is perfect. She may or may not have some self-esteem and communication problems. But at this point you've so thoroughly demonstrated that she can't trust you to look out for her, it's going to be impossible for her to be open to what what your wants and needs are. You need to focus on learning how to look out for your wife and earning her trust. Then maybe she could trust you enough to give a little on some things you want/need. If that's not something you want to at least attempt to learn, you may just want to admit it and call it quits.
Either way, counseling isn't killing your marriage, it's shining a light on what was already killing it. It may or may not be too late to fix those problems.
posted by ghost phoneme at 8:10 AM on August 26, 2015 [22 favorites]
Your wife's reaction of "playing defense" is understandable, not just in the context of her personality, but also your affair, subsequent 3 months to fully come clean, and apparent continued evidence of not respecting her needs by vehemently opposing moving out (it doesn't matter if you feel you reasonably voiced objections, if your initial response was anything but OK, let's make that work, you were clearly showing her that you don't consider her needs valid).
You've demonstrated repeatedly that she can't trust you to look out for her. And you don't even look out for yourself in a healthy way: cheating on your wife, who you say has low self-esteem, to blow things up rather than being forthright. Except now that things are blown up, you're happy to ignore her needs (time alone, continued counseling)and point out even more of her faults. She may also be waiting for the other shoe to drop since the truth of the affair took so long to come out.
The fact that you think her reaction is weird, something she's probably picking up, means you don't really see her reactions as valid...again, more evidence that she can't really trust you and needs to keep her defenses up.
I'm not saying your wife is perfect. She may or may not have some self-esteem and communication problems. But at this point you've so thoroughly demonstrated that she can't trust you to look out for her, it's going to be impossible for her to be open to what what your wants and needs are. You need to focus on learning how to look out for your wife and earning her trust. Then maybe she could trust you enough to give a little on some things you want/need. If that's not something you want to at least attempt to learn, you may just want to admit it and call it quits.
Either way, counseling isn't killing your marriage, it's shining a light on what was already killing it. It may or may not be too late to fix those problems.
posted by ghost phoneme at 8:10 AM on August 26, 2015 [22 favorites]
Reading the Surviving Infidelity forums, one frequent pattern is that the person who's had an affair, while understanding their partner needs time to recover, is frustrated by how long it takes and by seeming setbacks. (That site, by the way, has a certain amount of orthodoxy that I find off-putting, but the similarity in this part of the typical story is something I think you might find useful.) At a certain stage, the partner who has cheated feels like the other one needs to get over it already.
I am sure there is a point where your partner needs to either forgive you or acknowledge that trust is broken and they need to end it. But a lot of couples seem to go through a pretty extended period where the cheated on person is allowed to check in with their partner periodically and be reassured-- or whatever they have agreed on. It may well feel as if you are sort of being taxed about your past behavior, or if this is some sort of punishment but I think acting towards your partner on that basis is not productive.
posted by BibiRose at 8:23 AM on August 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
I am sure there is a point where your partner needs to either forgive you or acknowledge that trust is broken and they need to end it. But a lot of couples seem to go through a pretty extended period where the cheated on person is allowed to check in with their partner periodically and be reassured-- or whatever they have agreed on. It may well feel as if you are sort of being taxed about your past behavior, or if this is some sort of punishment but I think acting towards your partner on that basis is not productive.
posted by BibiRose at 8:23 AM on August 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
a lot of what you're describing to me reads like you haven't stopped gaslighting your wife and you might even be gaslighting yourself. you need to get the beam out your own eye and let her work on her own mote. i don't know if your marriage can survive this, but it certainly won't while you keep viewing you and her on opposite sides of the ball. if you can't be a team, you can't make this work.
you might also consider that you describe both of you doing the same thing (avoiding conflict) but you blame her for both of your failures in this department.
posted by nadawi at 8:26 AM on August 26, 2015 [14 favorites]
you might also consider that you describe both of you doing the same thing (avoiding conflict) but you blame her for both of your failures in this department.
posted by nadawi at 8:26 AM on August 26, 2015 [14 favorites]
I'm sorry, your marriage sounds like it's over bar the shouting.
Your son will get over it. Better to have divorced parents (mine are) than to have parents who neither respect nor like each other.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:29 AM on August 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Your son will get over it. Better to have divorced parents (mine are) than to have parents who neither respect nor like each other.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:29 AM on August 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Minus the affair, I could easily be you in the marriage dynamic for the first 10 years of my marriage. The details are so similar It gives me chills to read what you wrote above about the dynamic.
What changed that dynamic in my marriage to one that I am so much happier with was a one-sentence distillation of Gottman's tomes of advice. That sentence: "Couples in successful marriages are always scanning their environment, looking for positive / complementary / boosting things to say to and about their partner." Implementing this 'mindful' practice completely changed the dynamic in my marriage in a way that still completely stuns me.
Please me-mail me if you want to discuss further. I really feel like I've been close to where you are now.
posted by Doc_Sock at 8:55 AM on August 26, 2015 [33 favorites]
What changed that dynamic in my marriage to one that I am so much happier with was a one-sentence distillation of Gottman's tomes of advice. That sentence: "Couples in successful marriages are always scanning their environment, looking for positive / complementary / boosting things to say to and about their partner." Implementing this 'mindful' practice completely changed the dynamic in my marriage in a way that still completely stuns me.
Please me-mail me if you want to discuss further. I really feel like I've been close to where you are now.
posted by Doc_Sock at 8:55 AM on August 26, 2015 [33 favorites]
I'm not reading other comments because people here tend to be heartless about relationship issues, sometimes savagely so. Keep that in mind.
You mention that your wife has low self esteem, so I would hope you'd keep in mind that--whether or not she said that she wants to consider the entire marriage--your affair was very possibly a more catastrophic injury for her than you might imagine. You're viewing it through the lens of a catharsis; she likely does not (and may take that as additional injury). Your temporary moving out might be part of her need for catharsis, as a way to exert control over your daily life in the way that your affair and its discovery now saturates her waking experience. I think this is a very commonly expressed sentiment in marriage counseling.
Your wife's right about the counseling process: if you're going to start it, finish it. Ask your counselor for advice on how to talk about this openly with your wife, that's what the counselor is there for. It's also why you have (at least) nine weeks to keep working on it. No one has a counseling experience that they would describe as refreshing or easy. It's complicated and painful, and that's why you've invited in a third party professional. Use this time. Seriously, use this time. People say very strange things in counseling, especially when confronted, and you can't just let it go.
Advice: show your counselor this question (and maybe the public responses). Consider showing your wife this question (and maybe the public responses). Talk about what you've asked, and what your counselor and wife think about what's in both. Move forward. Keep moving forward.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 9:03 AM on August 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
You mention that your wife has low self esteem, so I would hope you'd keep in mind that--whether or not she said that she wants to consider the entire marriage--your affair was very possibly a more catastrophic injury for her than you might imagine. You're viewing it through the lens of a catharsis; she likely does not (and may take that as additional injury). Your temporary moving out might be part of her need for catharsis, as a way to exert control over your daily life in the way that your affair and its discovery now saturates her waking experience. I think this is a very commonly expressed sentiment in marriage counseling.
Your wife's right about the counseling process: if you're going to start it, finish it. Ask your counselor for advice on how to talk about this openly with your wife, that's what the counselor is there for. It's also why you have (at least) nine weeks to keep working on it. No one has a counseling experience that they would describe as refreshing or easy. It's complicated and painful, and that's why you've invited in a third party professional. Use this time. Seriously, use this time. People say very strange things in counseling, especially when confronted, and you can't just let it go.
Advice: show your counselor this question (and maybe the public responses). Consider showing your wife this question (and maybe the public responses). Talk about what you've asked, and what your counselor and wife think about what's in both. Move forward. Keep moving forward.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 9:03 AM on August 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Where you guys are at is uncomfortable, but there's no way to speed through it. I think you think you're being very logical, but to be honest, your post is (very understandably) an emotional muddle. I'd focus on taking some deep breaths and trying to get more comfortable in this difficult space you're in. You can't escape it, so I'd work on accepting it with compassion and openness both to yourself and to her.
In fact, the most curious thing, and I'm not trying to say this in a mean or blaming way, is that the dynamic you describe -- Person A expressing unhappiness with Person B's housekeeping only to have Person B say they're unhappy with Person A's housekeeping -- seems to be happening but with YOU as Person B, not her as you claim. She said she was unhappy with many things, and instead of (or alongside) saying "I'm sorry, how can we address that?" you said, "*I'm* unhappy about many things." Also, you sound surprised that she felt hurt when you said you were questioning the whole marriage -- when you'd just been hurt to learn she was questioning the whole marriage? I'm not saying these things make you wrong or bad, just that you're human, you're in pain, and so your brain is thrashing around in confusion trying to find the source of the pain and solve it.
If this can be fixed, it sounds like it'll take some time. Unlike others, I do still sense love there. I just think you're in a lot of pain from having had to move out and from things not being okay, and so you're frustrated that you can't fix it quickly. But this frustration isn't necessarily helping, so if you can slow down your thoughts and get a little distance from them, you might be better able to engage in the work that's needed now.
I echo the advice above that you work on deeply listening to her and that you get your own therapist. Also, I'd read books and do activities that help you get comfortable with pain. When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron is a quick and strangely comforting read. For me, the tougher yoga classes fundamentally teach learning to breathe and relax despite pain. But if yoga isn't right for you, any exercise might help. Also, I'd do whatever you can to shore up your emotional well-being: go to bed on time, don't drink too much, etc.
This probably sounds like bad advice (yeah, meditate, that'll save my marriage), but what you're saying just doesn't make that much sense. There are a lot of emotions bubbling over, and it sounds like you're expressing them by thrashing around mentally blaming her and claiming that current conversations illustrate a persistent flaw of hers. That may have some truth, but it isn't kind, and I don't think it's the whole truth. I don't think you're going to logic your way through this. Focus on your emotional and physical well-being and on being in a mental space where you can listen with compassion, both to her and to your own self.
posted by salvia at 9:59 AM on August 26, 2015 [11 favorites]
In fact, the most curious thing, and I'm not trying to say this in a mean or blaming way, is that the dynamic you describe -- Person A expressing unhappiness with Person B's housekeeping only to have Person B say they're unhappy with Person A's housekeeping -- seems to be happening but with YOU as Person B, not her as you claim. She said she was unhappy with many things, and instead of (or alongside) saying "I'm sorry, how can we address that?" you said, "*I'm* unhappy about many things." Also, you sound surprised that she felt hurt when you said you were questioning the whole marriage -- when you'd just been hurt to learn she was questioning the whole marriage? I'm not saying these things make you wrong or bad, just that you're human, you're in pain, and so your brain is thrashing around in confusion trying to find the source of the pain and solve it.
If this can be fixed, it sounds like it'll take some time. Unlike others, I do still sense love there. I just think you're in a lot of pain from having had to move out and from things not being okay, and so you're frustrated that you can't fix it quickly. But this frustration isn't necessarily helping, so if you can slow down your thoughts and get a little distance from them, you might be better able to engage in the work that's needed now.
I echo the advice above that you work on deeply listening to her and that you get your own therapist. Also, I'd read books and do activities that help you get comfortable with pain. When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron is a quick and strangely comforting read. For me, the tougher yoga classes fundamentally teach learning to breathe and relax despite pain. But if yoga isn't right for you, any exercise might help. Also, I'd do whatever you can to shore up your emotional well-being: go to bed on time, don't drink too much, etc.
This probably sounds like bad advice (yeah, meditate, that'll save my marriage), but what you're saying just doesn't make that much sense. There are a lot of emotions bubbling over, and it sounds like you're expressing them by thrashing around mentally blaming her and claiming that current conversations illustrate a persistent flaw of hers. That may have some truth, but it isn't kind, and I don't think it's the whole truth. I don't think you're going to logic your way through this. Focus on your emotional and physical well-being and on being in a mental space where you can listen with compassion, both to her and to your own self.
posted by salvia at 9:59 AM on August 26, 2015 [11 favorites]
at any perceived conflict or difficult conversation she will cry and walk out
I see that this hasn't really been addressed yet here. Argh, I've had this happen with a partner, and it's incredibly frustrating. Have you told her, or the therapist, how aggravating this is and how it doesn't help anyone? Has she acknowledged that she does this? Has she figured out steps to work on it, again either with you or a therapist?
Crying is an incredibly effective way of manipulating someone else to get what you want. If this is her only way of trying to deal with a lot of difficult communication problems, then she shouldn't be surprised later when you say buh-bye.
posted by Melismata at 10:26 AM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I see that this hasn't really been addressed yet here. Argh, I've had this happen with a partner, and it's incredibly frustrating. Have you told her, or the therapist, how aggravating this is and how it doesn't help anyone? Has she acknowledged that she does this? Has she figured out steps to work on it, again either with you or a therapist?
Crying is an incredibly effective way of manipulating someone else to get what you want. If this is her only way of trying to deal with a lot of difficult communication problems, then she shouldn't be surprised later when you say buh-bye.
posted by Melismata at 10:26 AM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
You can't have effective therapy till both people can follow certain guidelines about how to express feelings, and how to respond when the other person expresses feelings. These are the basics that you probably have heard about: encouraging someone to talk; listening to what they say; mirroring it back to them by paraphrasing their point of view; expressing empathy; etc. These are all under the rubric of "active listening" (or listening skills) if you want to read a bit about it. It was the very first thing our therapist talked about when my husband and I went for counseling.
I'm guessing that your wife is feeling very hurt, betrayed and angry. One of many plausible possibilities is that she isn't able yet to interact with you in the generous and kind way that leads to an improved relationship. You're not going to get anywhere together until both of you can willingly obey the listening rules. I'm absolutely not saying that she should get with the program now. Maybe you two should wait until she's ready.
Now about having to consider the marriage as a whole: that makes sense. Sure, it was all about the affair to start with. But therapy has to address the major issues that each partner is affected by. It aims to improve the future of the relationship, not just to settle specific wrongs from the past.
posted by wryly at 10:36 AM on August 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm guessing that your wife is feeling very hurt, betrayed and angry. One of many plausible possibilities is that she isn't able yet to interact with you in the generous and kind way that leads to an improved relationship. You're not going to get anywhere together until both of you can willingly obey the listening rules. I'm absolutely not saying that she should get with the program now. Maybe you two should wait until she's ready.
Now about having to consider the marriage as a whole: that makes sense. Sure, it was all about the affair to start with. But therapy has to address the major issues that each partner is affected by. It aims to improve the future of the relationship, not just to settle specific wrongs from the past.
posted by wryly at 10:36 AM on August 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm a therapist who has worked with couples. I would work on the assumption that this scenario, as you presented in your question, would take at least a year of weekly visits to resolve, quite possibly 18 months. This is not a nine-week problem. This is a problem that took years to create and is going to take a great deal of time, patience, and work to resolve.
posted by jaguar at 10:37 AM on August 26, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 10:37 AM on August 26, 2015 [14 favorites]
A huge aspect of therapy that many people mention here on the green is "You have to do the work." Neither of you seem to be doing the work right now. Well, I can't say what you're wife is working on, perhaps she's doing her own work on considering ending the relationship. But you are not doing the work.
The work does not equal "I fucked up, I'm sorry, get over it, you suck too, let's be married."
The work equals you BOTH considering the dynamics you have each contributed to, what dynamics you would like to resolve, and whether or not you even want to consider continuing. Then once you even have an idea on any of those, you WORK on them. You actively talk to your partner about the problems. You discuss them openly and calmly. "When you do X it makes me feel Y. Did you know you did X? What do I need to do so that X doesn't happen?"
You have contributed to X happening. It is not all your wife's fault. You are not in the clear because you apologized for something that was 6 weeks of a 25 year marriage. Your wife needs to open up her communication skills as well.
But as a data point, I was so excited when my parents got a divorce when I was 15. Granted, there was a lot of emotional abuse being slung my way too, but I highly doubt your kid doesn't sense what's going on. It may be better for all parties to move on. BUT if you do move on I recommend counseling still so you can be effective co-parents.
posted by Crystalinne at 11:04 AM on August 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
The work does not equal "I fucked up, I'm sorry, get over it, you suck too, let's be married."
The work equals you BOTH considering the dynamics you have each contributed to, what dynamics you would like to resolve, and whether or not you even want to consider continuing. Then once you even have an idea on any of those, you WORK on them. You actively talk to your partner about the problems. You discuss them openly and calmly. "When you do X it makes me feel Y. Did you know you did X? What do I need to do so that X doesn't happen?"
You have contributed to X happening. It is not all your wife's fault. You are not in the clear because you apologized for something that was 6 weeks of a 25 year marriage. Your wife needs to open up her communication skills as well.
But as a data point, I was so excited when my parents got a divorce when I was 15. Granted, there was a lot of emotional abuse being slung my way too, but I highly doubt your kid doesn't sense what's going on. It may be better for all parties to move on. BUT if you do move on I recommend counseling still so you can be effective co-parents.
posted by Crystalinne at 11:04 AM on August 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
Following up: I read your marriage as a power struggle. The kitchen cleaning example reads like a sibling competition. And just as siblings can fundamentally love each other and still fight/compete like hell, so too could I (and I think you) live in a marriage where conflicts are usually buried and rarely resolved because both players subconsciously treat each conflict as a power struggle. Indeed I couldn't see the underlying power struggle, or the problem with marriage as a game of power, until I saw my two opposite gender children mirroring so much of the way my wife and I interacted.
I read some of your wife's behavior as highly manipulative and possibly emotionally abusive. While abusive behavior is often couched as exclusively the problem of the abuser, I think that abusive behavior, in this context, comes out of 'power struggle.' Abuse is about exerting power. I urge you to try to see your own marriage as one with an underlying power struggle, where you are playing on opposite teams. Key to moving so that you 'play on the same team' is to stop engaging in critical analysis of what your partner does. I personally found this very, very difficult.
In my own case, I found that my spouse knew exactly what I hoped she would do. I didn't need to tell her more than once, or remind her, ever. Her resistance to doing what I hoped was part of the power struggle. When I moved into the mindset of 'always scanning the environment, looking for positive / complementary / boosting things to say to her' she all of a sudden became interested in doing the things I hoped she would do!
posted by Doc_Sock at 12:30 PM on August 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
I read some of your wife's behavior as highly manipulative and possibly emotionally abusive. While abusive behavior is often couched as exclusively the problem of the abuser, I think that abusive behavior, in this context, comes out of 'power struggle.' Abuse is about exerting power. I urge you to try to see your own marriage as one with an underlying power struggle, where you are playing on opposite teams. Key to moving so that you 'play on the same team' is to stop engaging in critical analysis of what your partner does. I personally found this very, very difficult.
In my own case, I found that my spouse knew exactly what I hoped she would do. I didn't need to tell her more than once, or remind her, ever. Her resistance to doing what I hoped was part of the power struggle. When I moved into the mindset of 'always scanning the environment, looking for positive / complementary / boosting things to say to her' she all of a sudden became interested in doing the things I hoped she would do!
posted by Doc_Sock at 12:30 PM on August 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
You haven't yet really begun to engage with your therapy because you are still focused on what your wife is doing and feeling and how it affects you, rather than on your own feelings and behavior and how those things are affecting the choices you make.
Get clear on the difference and then you might start to figure out why you have been in a marriage for twenty-five years which you feel is unhappy, and a primary example your cite here of this unhappiness is that your wife didn't clean up the kitchen properly. You might also start to investigate why you need her to apologize to you about things so much so that it has become this emotional flashpoint in your perception of your her character.
Something tells me that you have a problem with engaging with your emotions and accepting responsibility for yourself, as well.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 12:52 PM on August 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Get clear on the difference and then you might start to figure out why you have been in a marriage for twenty-five years which you feel is unhappy, and a primary example your cite here of this unhappiness is that your wife didn't clean up the kitchen properly. You might also start to investigate why you need her to apologize to you about things so much so that it has become this emotional flashpoint in your perception of your her character.
Something tells me that you have a problem with engaging with your emotions and accepting responsibility for yourself, as well.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 12:52 PM on August 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
But she just gets very insulted and hurt that I have the audacity to claim to have been unhappy
I know I'm speaking for someone else here, and I could be wrong, but I get the feeling your wife wants you to tell here how completely sorry you are, that the affair was a terrible mistake, that you love her and want her back, etc etc. She feels that you have lost the right to speak out about anything she has done wrong because you have done something much worse. I do sympathise with this. If she is still playing the "but you had an affair!" card in two years, then not so much, but right now she is raw and in no state to listen.
I think you need to decide if you to want to win her back at all or if you just want to win the argument.
posted by intensitymultiply at 2:06 PM on August 26, 2015 [11 favorites]
I know I'm speaking for someone else here, and I could be wrong, but I get the feeling your wife wants you to tell here how completely sorry you are, that the affair was a terrible mistake, that you love her and want her back, etc etc. She feels that you have lost the right to speak out about anything she has done wrong because you have done something much worse. I do sympathise with this. If she is still playing the "but you had an affair!" card in two years, then not so much, but right now she is raw and in no state to listen.
I think you need to decide if you to want to win her back at all or if you just want to win the argument.
posted by intensitymultiply at 2:06 PM on August 26, 2015 [11 favorites]
Similar to what several others have suggested, I think you need to stop focusing on "helping her gain clarity" (that is extremely condescending, particularly coming from someone who can't possibly comprehend what she's going through).
I think it's dangerous to assume that the wife has been manipulative. Anything's possible, but internet strangers have no way of knowing how she'd been treated each time she cried and left the room, and no, clearly that did not happen every time there was conflict, since in the kitchen example, she instead pointed out ways your request seemed hypocritical to her.
I'm not saying either of these are good communication styles, only that you're painting with broad strokes, OP, and you're not even noticing where those are in tension, so you could stand to gain some clarity instead of thinking you've got the dynamics figured out and simply need advice on getting her up to speed.
[Look at these two phrases if you doubt that you're generalizing:
"at any perceived conflict or difficult conversation she will cry and walk out"
"Her response is always to catalog the many times that I don't do that"
This "any" and "always" stuff is garbage, so listen to yourself and try not to go there.]
Also, of course "she was considering the entirety of our marriage" after learning that you'd been living a lie, even for part of the marriage. It's no small hurdle (mental and emotional) to accept an entirely alternate view of months of one's life and partnership. This is amplified by the fact that she discovered the affair (as opposed to you coming clean on your own). Frankly she must wonder if this is the only year of her life during which her partner was living a lie (i.e., how many times did you do this and not get caught?). She needs time and space to even begin to process this, and she's asked for that time and space. Give her that.
"she's saying things that make it sound like my expressions of unhappiness are as much a betrayal to her as the affair"
Those expressions of unhappiness are extra hurtful especially now that you (at least here) essentially blame your affair on that unhappiness. So yeah, she might balk at what now sounds like a list of excuses, even if that's not how you mean it. That doesn't mean you're not allowed to explain ways you've been unhappy. You're just not allowed to choose how she's impacted when she hears it.
posted by whoiam at 2:08 PM on August 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
I think it's dangerous to assume that the wife has been manipulative. Anything's possible, but internet strangers have no way of knowing how she'd been treated each time she cried and left the room, and no, clearly that did not happen every time there was conflict, since in the kitchen example, she instead pointed out ways your request seemed hypocritical to her.
I'm not saying either of these are good communication styles, only that you're painting with broad strokes, OP, and you're not even noticing where those are in tension, so you could stand to gain some clarity instead of thinking you've got the dynamics figured out and simply need advice on getting her up to speed.
[Look at these two phrases if you doubt that you're generalizing:
"at any perceived conflict or difficult conversation she will cry and walk out"
"Her response is always to catalog the many times that I don't do that"
This "any" and "always" stuff is garbage, so listen to yourself and try not to go there.]
Also, of course "she was considering the entirety of our marriage" after learning that you'd been living a lie, even for part of the marriage. It's no small hurdle (mental and emotional) to accept an entirely alternate view of months of one's life and partnership. This is amplified by the fact that she discovered the affair (as opposed to you coming clean on your own). Frankly she must wonder if this is the only year of her life during which her partner was living a lie (i.e., how many times did you do this and not get caught?). She needs time and space to even begin to process this, and she's asked for that time and space. Give her that.
"she's saying things that make it sound like my expressions of unhappiness are as much a betrayal to her as the affair"
Those expressions of unhappiness are extra hurtful especially now that you (at least here) essentially blame your affair on that unhappiness. So yeah, she might balk at what now sounds like a list of excuses, even if that's not how you mean it. That doesn't mean you're not allowed to explain ways you've been unhappy. You're just not allowed to choose how she's impacted when she hears it.
posted by whoiam at 2:08 PM on August 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
OP -- consider that many women insist on divorcing a cheating husband out of principal. Affection, contrition, money, kids, it doesn't matter: you cheat, you go. When a wife who has this view ALSO has bad communication and conflict-aversion issues, you can get a long, drawn-out process with therapy and trial separation and what not, but there was never actually a chance for a different ending. There's a real chance that the locks have already been changed and she's seeing a lawyer. (Lawyers take retainers by credit card these days -- check your online statements...)
posted by MattD at 2:49 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by MattD at 2:49 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Seeing a lawyer is a good idea for her if she's recently discovered that her husband has been living a double life, been dissatisfied for years and blames her for his transgression. Who knows, from her point of view, to what extent his abandonment of their relationship has stretched. She could hardly be blamed for feeling that cheating 'in principle' is a total deal breaker calling into question their whole marriage.
OP, it's a big deal to have manipulated your wife this way, and it is unreasonable ito try to stick with a timeline for unravelling the mental threads of a mere nine weeks. Make plans to be separated for longer and reduce the pressure you are placing on her to concede to your point of view. I agree with others here that you need to stop finding fault in your wife and stick with examining your own motives and behaviour. Apologise, reassure and reinforce your sense of responsibility rather than trying to one-up her in the 'I'm a victim of the marital dynamic' scale.
And, fwiw, my further two cents: If you think passive aggression is your wife not putting things away and pointing out you not putting things away, what do you think lying and slinking around gas lighting her for months in order to make a point about your marital dissatisfaction look like? It looks like you set fire to the building in order to get rid of a stain on the carpet.
So far she's sad, hurt, self recriminating. From experience I will tell you that rage is not far behind these emotions. And it sounds like she's got a lot to be angry about if your presentation of the relationship can be parsed by internet strangers reading your question.
posted by honey-barbara at 3:51 PM on August 26, 2015 [25 favorites]
OP, it's a big deal to have manipulated your wife this way, and it is unreasonable ito try to stick with a timeline for unravelling the mental threads of a mere nine weeks. Make plans to be separated for longer and reduce the pressure you are placing on her to concede to your point of view. I agree with others here that you need to stop finding fault in your wife and stick with examining your own motives and behaviour. Apologise, reassure and reinforce your sense of responsibility rather than trying to one-up her in the 'I'm a victim of the marital dynamic' scale.
And, fwiw, my further two cents: If you think passive aggression is your wife not putting things away and pointing out you not putting things away, what do you think lying and slinking around gas lighting her for months in order to make a point about your marital dissatisfaction look like? It looks like you set fire to the building in order to get rid of a stain on the carpet.
So far she's sad, hurt, self recriminating. From experience I will tell you that rage is not far behind these emotions. And it sounds like she's got a lot to be angry about if your presentation of the relationship can be parsed by internet strangers reading your question.
posted by honey-barbara at 3:51 PM on August 26, 2015 [25 favorites]
Honestly, the "well I cheated, but SHE left things around the kitchen, and got bitchy about it" defense is not gonna help you here. I've noticed in a lot of men/people who are bad at navigating negative emotions that they are afraid that acknowledging the negative emotions will make them worse. In my experience, that is not true-- your wife needs a good solid period of "you cheated, you lied for months, you are not worthy of trust, I am pissed and doing the best I can." She needs time and distance to deal with this (you both do) and who cleans the kitchen the most is really totally irrelevant, because she's going to feel burned on every front. Because you massively betrayed her, as you know. Every time she cleaned the kitchen, she now feels like she cleaned it for a cheater who broke her spirit.
Maybe she feels like in the end, you shouldn't be nagging her about putting things away in the kitchen if you forget to put them away too, and also... cheated.
If you feel it's getting abusive, or if you don't think your wife is a good person who will eventually work through this and reach an equilibrium, it's your prerogative to leave at any time.
posted by easter queen at 4:54 PM on August 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
Maybe she feels like in the end, you shouldn't be nagging her about putting things away in the kitchen if you forget to put them away too, and also... cheated.
If you feel it's getting abusive, or if you don't think your wife is a good person who will eventually work through this and reach an equilibrium, it's your prerogative to leave at any time.
posted by easter queen at 4:54 PM on August 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
Also, whether or not you were unhappy in the marriage-- also irrelevant. Cheating is not an inevitable outcome of unhappiness. So you just need to put that shit on the back burner for now. It sounds like you're saying the right words (she is incalculably upset) but not really feeling them (you still think she should listen to your reasons why).
posted by easter queen at 4:56 PM on August 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 4:56 PM on August 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
When you describe the conflict you two have about cleaning the kitchen notice that you disregard your wife's statement that [your failures] have always bothered her, because she hadn't raised the issue previously: I'll say that I don't mind being reminded, it helps keep the house cleaner, but that it seems that she's only just suddenly caring about [issue]. She says she always noticed [my failures] but never wanted to say anything because conflict.
You seem to think that your doubt because of her lack of prior action is quite reasonable. If doubt because of lack of prior action is so reasonable, why do you expect her to believe you about your earlier unhappiness, or any interest in bettering your marriage? We both had been experiencing some low-grade unhappiness, me probably more than her, for years. We have been awful communicators our entire marriage. For my part this is partly my own neuroses about emotional intimacy, and partly because she is a very fragile person -- at any perceived conflict or difficult conversation she will cry and walk out. I had wanted to see a marriage counselor for years, to deal with this issue, but I never asked for it because of this perceived fragility
You seem to be quite ready to blame your lack of prior action on your unwilliness to deal with how your wife responds. What behavior of yours inhibited your wife?
You don't want to deal with how your wife responds to unhappiness and conflict, which is crying and leaving the room. What makes you think your wife wants to deal with how you respond to unhappiness and conflict, which is lying to her and fucking other people?
posted by Sublimity at 5:15 PM on August 26, 2015 [24 favorites]
You seem to think that your doubt because of her lack of prior action is quite reasonable. If doubt because of lack of prior action is so reasonable, why do you expect her to believe you about your earlier unhappiness, or any interest in bettering your marriage? We both had been experiencing some low-grade unhappiness, me probably more than her, for years. We have been awful communicators our entire marriage. For my part this is partly my own neuroses about emotional intimacy, and partly because she is a very fragile person -- at any perceived conflict or difficult conversation she will cry and walk out. I had wanted to see a marriage counselor for years, to deal with this issue, but I never asked for it because of this perceived fragility
You seem to be quite ready to blame your lack of prior action on your unwilliness to deal with how your wife responds. What behavior of yours inhibited your wife?
You don't want to deal with how your wife responds to unhappiness and conflict, which is crying and leaving the room. What makes you think your wife wants to deal with how you respond to unhappiness and conflict, which is lying to her and fucking other people?
posted by Sublimity at 5:15 PM on August 26, 2015 [24 favorites]
You need to own how much pain you brought to this situation by cheating and then lying about cheating.
She needs a lot of time to process this, and you need to do the work to unravel the why and how of the situation.
Just damn.
posted by heathrowga at 7:08 PM on August 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
She needs a lot of time to process this, and you need to do the work to unravel the why and how of the situation.
Just damn.
posted by heathrowga at 7:08 PM on August 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
But she just gets very insulted and hurt that I have the audacity to claim to have been unhappy, and angry at my negligence in never having addressed it.
I do think it's fair to be angry about that. (One book I read on communication said that, when bringing criticism, also own the part of the problem that you caused, because there's always something. It specifically said that if nothing else, you can almost always apologize for not having clearly addressed the situation sooner.) And yeah, I do think it'd hurt A LOT to hear that my husband of 25 years had been unhappy for a long time.
... she's saying things that make it sound like my expressions of unhappiness are as much a betrayal to her as the affair.
I imagine that to her, they merge into a single thing. "I was secretly unhappy. I secretly emotionally left the relationship. I secretly started to see another woman." I mean, imagine being her -- the devastating revelations just keep coming. Emotional affair. Physical affair. He's been deeply unhappy for a long time.
There's a saying on those Surviving Infidelity chat rooms that the parties each have 50% of the responsibility for the problems in the relationship, but that the cheater bears 100% of the responsibility for the decision to cheat. To me, it sounds like you're trying to give her far more than 50% of the blame for relationship problems. I'd look for your 50% of blame there. What did you do to cause the problems in the relationship? What can you do better that can improve the relationship? I'd focus all your attention on that and not on what is wrong with her.
posted by salvia at 8:14 PM on August 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
I do think it's fair to be angry about that. (One book I read on communication said that, when bringing criticism, also own the part of the problem that you caused, because there's always something. It specifically said that if nothing else, you can almost always apologize for not having clearly addressed the situation sooner.) And yeah, I do think it'd hurt A LOT to hear that my husband of 25 years had been unhappy for a long time.
... she's saying things that make it sound like my expressions of unhappiness are as much a betrayal to her as the affair.
I imagine that to her, they merge into a single thing. "I was secretly unhappy. I secretly emotionally left the relationship. I secretly started to see another woman." I mean, imagine being her -- the devastating revelations just keep coming. Emotional affair. Physical affair. He's been deeply unhappy for a long time.
There's a saying on those Surviving Infidelity chat rooms that the parties each have 50% of the responsibility for the problems in the relationship, but that the cheater bears 100% of the responsibility for the decision to cheat. To me, it sounds like you're trying to give her far more than 50% of the blame for relationship problems. I'd look for your 50% of blame there. What did you do to cause the problems in the relationship? What can you do better that can improve the relationship? I'd focus all your attention on that and not on what is wrong with her.
posted by salvia at 8:14 PM on August 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
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This thread is closed to new comments.
It sounds like you've been married 25 years without having learned the basics of communication. Your way of handling conflict is very different from hers, and it sounds like you never learned to manage that - and that is quite a big issue to suddenly be trying to handle now after 25 years of ignoring it. And now that you're trying to address it for the first time, it's starting to look to me like in your case, you maybe won't ever be able to - not without her un-learning old habits, you unlearning some old habits, and both of you happening to re-learn new habits in a compatible way. And there's no guarantee, even if you both go to therapy separately and together, that you'll be able to re-learn habits in a compatible way. You can try, certainly, but there is a possibility that it won't work, especially if you are just fundamentally too different.
However, you can build a relationship with your son even if your marriage fails, because he is still going to be your son, and he will still have those years to draw on - years that you've spent building the foundation of a relationship with each other. Even if your marriage fails, you can continue building that. Especially since he will have a greater degree of autonomy within a few years.
I agree with you that she would benefit from individual counseling, but I also think you would as well. You'll notice that I haven't said anything about the affair - because I suspect that was more of a symptom than the heart of the problem. Going to a counselor yourself may help you get to the root of the real problem, and help you crystallize for yourself the issues you had with the marriage and why you were unhappy enough to do that; right now it sounds like you're trying to patch things up alone, but both of you continuing to ignore the real problem at the root. You need to be able to dig out the real problem and confront it together if you want to save the marriage, and you can't do that if you yourself don't know what your own issues with the relationship are.
Good luck.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:37 AM on August 26, 2015 [6 favorites]