A bad cat habit and how to change it
August 22, 2015 5:18 PM Subscribe
I'm fostering a cat, but she's been here since April so this is turning into a long-term project. She wasn't feral, but had had a hard outdoor life for awhile and was somewhat tense, and part of my deal has been to calm her down and make her more adoptable. On the whole it's been working and Sophie is about 95% there. But...
...and I know she does this because she likes me, so it's difficult.
Sophie does not like having me leave the room she's in. She'll chase after me and claw at my departing calves. It's happened a few times now – a quick stab and then I feel blood sliding down. So I've been clipping her claws – she lets me, if she gets treats throughout – and it's been sort of cute to feel a slap from her soft paw as she does the "last touch" thing as I leave a room.
Only just now she ran after me, I felt the paw, but then she bit me! A quick tooth-stab on the calf and now I'm bleeding again.
They say you should squeak like a kitten if a cat hurts you, and trust me, I didn't have to pretend. It hurt! But I don't know if it made the slightest impression on Sophie, even though she's been a mother at least once, before she was with me.
But I know this is not OK. Behaviour like this makes Sophie unsuitable for adoption into a household with small kids, for example.
Sophie is not incorrigible. She had another habit, of following me into the bathroom and nipping at my fingers when I was sitting there. I seem to have cured her of this by hissing at her as she was about to do it, but that's different, in that position I was facing her and close to her level, and alert to the possibility. Leaving a room, one's surprisingly vulnerable, one just wants to pop into the other room for a minute and forgets about offending the cat.
I've tried inviting her into the other room – sometimes it works, and she chases ahead of me. I could try to back out of the room, which would be suitable for cats who think themselves royalty, I suppose.
Any other ideas?
Obligatory cat photo although she is not really my cat.
...and I know she does this because she likes me, so it's difficult.
Sophie does not like having me leave the room she's in. She'll chase after me and claw at my departing calves. It's happened a few times now – a quick stab and then I feel blood sliding down. So I've been clipping her claws – she lets me, if she gets treats throughout – and it's been sort of cute to feel a slap from her soft paw as she does the "last touch" thing as I leave a room.
Only just now she ran after me, I felt the paw, but then she bit me! A quick tooth-stab on the calf and now I'm bleeding again.
They say you should squeak like a kitten if a cat hurts you, and trust me, I didn't have to pretend. It hurt! But I don't know if it made the slightest impression on Sophie, even though she's been a mother at least once, before she was with me.
But I know this is not OK. Behaviour like this makes Sophie unsuitable for adoption into a household with small kids, for example.
Sophie is not incorrigible. She had another habit, of following me into the bathroom and nipping at my fingers when I was sitting there. I seem to have cured her of this by hissing at her as she was about to do it, but that's different, in that position I was facing her and close to her level, and alert to the possibility. Leaving a room, one's surprisingly vulnerable, one just wants to pop into the other room for a minute and forgets about offending the cat.
I've tried inviting her into the other room – sometimes it works, and she chases ahead of me. I could try to back out of the room, which would be suitable for cats who think themselves royalty, I suppose.
Any other ideas?
Obligatory cat photo although she is not really my cat.
I know this isn't your question, but you should consider medical attention for that bite. Cat bites can cause really bad infections.
posted by jayder at 5:30 PM on August 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by jayder at 5:30 PM on August 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
Best answer: Put soft toys around the house. When you see her about to go after you, toss a toy to redirect her. She also needs about 30 minutes of playtime, 15 minutes twice a day to let her work out some rough play on toys and get some nervous energy out; the "Da Bird" toy is pretty awesome. You can also use a shaker can filled with coins to deter her from biting by startling her, but the positive redirect with toys is better. If you can play with her longer, better! A laser pointer may also work as a redirect as you're leaving rooms and can be clipped to your belt or easily carried.
And while cat bites can be serious, you ought to be fine by cleaning it and maybe putting some antibiotic ointment on it, unless you're immunosuppressed.
posted by Nyx at 5:37 PM on August 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
And while cat bites can be serious, you ought to be fine by cleaning it and maybe putting some antibiotic ointment on it, unless you're immunosuppressed.
posted by Nyx at 5:37 PM on August 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Hackey sacks! I have a cat who when confused about where I am or the other cat is, picks up one of his hackey sacks and takes it with him while he looks.
posted by Oyéah at 5:55 PM on August 22, 2015
posted by Oyéah at 5:55 PM on August 22, 2015
Best answer: Cats don't have a really complex sense of negative reinforcement. It's possible that her anxiety increases when she sees you leave the room and the overstimulation is driving her to act, but the swipe/bite behavior is prey-drive behavior, not "please don't go!"
Try redirecting when you leave the room. Don't use the same redirect every time - sometimes food, sometimes a toy, sometimes nothing, but throw it in a different direction than the one you're going. You can also keep a spray bottle around to spritz her if you can catch her on the approach.
And I have a friend who is going through an extraordinary ordeal following a couple of cat bites, so if you have any concerns at all about the condition of the bites/scratches, do not talk yourself out of getting it looked at because it's "just a cat."
posted by Lyn Never at 5:56 PM on August 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Try redirecting when you leave the room. Don't use the same redirect every time - sometimes food, sometimes a toy, sometimes nothing, but throw it in a different direction than the one you're going. You can also keep a spray bottle around to spritz her if you can catch her on the approach.
And I have a friend who is going through an extraordinary ordeal following a couple of cat bites, so if you have any concerns at all about the condition of the bites/scratches, do not talk yourself out of getting it looked at because it's "just a cat."
posted by Lyn Never at 5:56 PM on August 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Sophie has bitten me a few times before and I've been fine, no immunity problems here and years of dealing with unruly felines, so I'm not worried, but I thank people for their concern. For something like a cat bite I'd spend a day or more sitting around a Montreal ER waiting room before making it through triage, anyway, and probably be faced with a tired MD saying "you came here for what?"
I will try a combo of Lyn Never and Hermione Granger's redirecting techniques, and I'm taking Nyx's exercising advice under consideration. Sophie does need more exercise although she gets bored fast ("I know that red dot is you, you dope") so I'll have to investigate rotating the exercise methods.
posted by zadcat at 6:08 PM on August 22, 2015
I will try a combo of Lyn Never and Hermione Granger's redirecting techniques, and I'm taking Nyx's exercising advice under consideration. Sophie does need more exercise although she gets bored fast ("I know that red dot is you, you dope") so I'll have to investigate rotating the exercise methods.
posted by zadcat at 6:08 PM on August 22, 2015
Best answer: Sophie is beautiful. Have you considered trying Feliway to calm her down?
Re cat bites, doctors will be very helpful if you come with an actually infected one, as I know from experience. (Go to a clinic, not the ER, or if you have a GP they might be able to fit you in, it's a 30 second consultation.)
posted by jeather at 6:42 PM on August 22, 2015
Re cat bites, doctors will be very helpful if you come with an actually infected one, as I know from experience. (Go to a clinic, not the ER, or if you have a GP they might be able to fit you in, it's a 30 second consultation.)
posted by jeather at 6:42 PM on August 22, 2015
Sorry for belaboring the cat bite issue, but they can be pretty dangerous. I work in cat rescue and know more than one person (including myself) who has come in danger of losing a hand over a cat bite. Their teeth act like bacteria-injecting needles, and the puncture wounds created are tremendously difficult to clean out manually without opening them up further. Infections can spread fast, especially if they get anywhere near a joint.
posted by Anonymous at 7:10 PM on August 22, 2015
posted by Anonymous at 7:10 PM on August 22, 2015
Response by poster: So... you folks would pack up now and go to an emergency ward and explain you'd had a cat bite? That's really what I should do?
posted by zadcat at 7:13 PM on August 22, 2015
posted by zadcat at 7:13 PM on August 22, 2015
I wouldn't go to an ER for a cat bite unless I saw swelling and wrongness in the subsequent days. I wash the bite/scratch with soap and water, then apply a dab of polysporin.
posted by heathrowga at 7:19 PM on August 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by heathrowga at 7:19 PM on August 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
After having three separate adventures to the ER due to infected cat bites due to my own psycho cat, yes, I can tell you it does happen.
Just keep it clean, with a bacitracin or polysporin on it. Soap and water works; you can also flush it really well with saline (the kind you would use to rinse contact lenses - you are able to get a good stream going with the squeeze bottles). If the area feels hot or you see any swelling or redness - especially streaks heading toward your knee, you need to definitely need to be seen. Obviously, ick draining from the bite would also be a qualifier.
If you're not sure and think something might be going on, an easy way to tell if a wound is getting worse is growing is by circling the area with a ball point pen. You can then keep an eye on it every few hours to see if the redness/swelling is now outside the circle. Looks dopey, but it works.
BTW, I like the name Sophie - it's my daughter's name. :)
posted by dancinglamb at 9:09 PM on August 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Just keep it clean, with a bacitracin or polysporin on it. Soap and water works; you can also flush it really well with saline (the kind you would use to rinse contact lenses - you are able to get a good stream going with the squeeze bottles). If the area feels hot or you see any swelling or redness - especially streaks heading toward your knee, you need to definitely need to be seen. Obviously, ick draining from the bite would also be a qualifier.
If you're not sure and think something might be going on, an easy way to tell if a wound is getting worse is growing is by circling the area with a ball point pen. You can then keep an eye on it every few hours to see if the redness/swelling is now outside the circle. Looks dopey, but it works.
BTW, I like the name Sophie - it's my daughter's name. :)
posted by dancinglamb at 9:09 PM on August 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would go if I saw any swelling or redness. Especially since I know I'd be waiting in the ER and that would give the infection hours more to spread.
posted by Anonymous at 10:06 PM on August 22, 2015
posted by Anonymous at 10:06 PM on August 22, 2015
Beautiful cat! When my MIL was in hospice, one of the women there was honest to god dying from an infection gotten from a cat bite. You are probably fine, but do please keep a close eye on it and seek attention if it flares up at all.
posted by Iteki at 1:32 AM on August 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Iteki at 1:32 AM on August 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
My occasionally-crazy cat bit me on the calf earlier this week - I cleaned the 2 little punctures and kept an eye on it for excessive tenderness & swelling, but it just developed normal (for me) bruising so, in your shoes I doubt I'd go to the ER unless there was some sign of infection.
My cat (Snow) is also a street rescue with an unknown past. At this point, nearly 3 years on, I'm not sure there's any way to cure her entirely of her tendency to go into attack mode; though she has improved, part of that is just that I've gotten much better at knowing her triggers and reading her body language. She's a super-quiet cat, doesn't hiss or growl, barely ever makes more than a chirp at feeding time, only yowls when in the carrier on the way to the vet, so all of her warning signs of being overstimulated are visual cues. So, it may be that Sophie will never be quite safe enough for adoption by a household with young children (or the elderly and/or immunocompromised). But, she wouldn't be the first pet that's adoptable with an asterisk (like dogs that can't be trusted to live with cats, cats who need to be the solo pet, etc.), couldn't she be considered a special-needs adoption?
(My latest bite happened because Snow got startled by my sudden coughing after a bit of popcorn kernel got stuck in my throat. I wasn't choking, but it was stuck right at a gag reflex point, so the loud coughs combined with my leg moving quickly as I turned around to grab my water glass must have frightened her, and unfortunately her fight-or-flight response tends towards fight, so she latched onto the offending leg. I guess this means I know the answer to the question of whether my cat will eat my corpse if I were to die alone in my apartment - she's not even going to wait until I'm dead! Whatever though, I can't stay mad at this face).
posted by oh yeah! at 6:52 AM on August 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
My cat (Snow) is also a street rescue with an unknown past. At this point, nearly 3 years on, I'm not sure there's any way to cure her entirely of her tendency to go into attack mode; though she has improved, part of that is just that I've gotten much better at knowing her triggers and reading her body language. She's a super-quiet cat, doesn't hiss or growl, barely ever makes more than a chirp at feeding time, only yowls when in the carrier on the way to the vet, so all of her warning signs of being overstimulated are visual cues. So, it may be that Sophie will never be quite safe enough for adoption by a household with young children (or the elderly and/or immunocompromised). But, she wouldn't be the first pet that's adoptable with an asterisk (like dogs that can't be trusted to live with cats, cats who need to be the solo pet, etc.), couldn't she be considered a special-needs adoption?
(My latest bite happened because Snow got startled by my sudden coughing after a bit of popcorn kernel got stuck in my throat. I wasn't choking, but it was stuck right at a gag reflex point, so the loud coughs combined with my leg moving quickly as I turned around to grab my water glass must have frightened her, and unfortunately her fight-or-flight response tends towards fight, so she latched onto the offending leg. I guess this means I know the answer to the question of whether my cat will eat my corpse if I were to die alone in my apartment - she's not even going to wait until I'm dead! Whatever though, I can't stay mad at this face).
posted by oh yeah! at 6:52 AM on August 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Former American and current Canadian here, seems like we need some cross-cultural medical translation. In your case, for every time people here say "ER" substitute "walk-in clinic." Don't go to a Montreal ER, hahahaha! Americans seem to use emergency rooms as a first resort of medical care, often ahead of their GP, I still have no idea why but it's not the way the Canadian system is set up. And Americans don't really do walk-in clinics? They would prescribe the same antibiotics anyway, and you wouldn't lose a whole day.
And regarding the cat, if she figured out the red dot she's probably smart enough for clicker training — in which case you can probably teach her to stay. And she might enjoy the mental challenge of training, which would help with the anxiety and aggression.
posted by 100kb at 8:29 AM on August 23, 2015
And regarding the cat, if she figured out the red dot she's probably smart enough for clicker training — in which case you can probably teach her to stay. And she might enjoy the mental challenge of training, which would help with the anxiety and aggression.
posted by 100kb at 8:29 AM on August 23, 2015
Response by poster: oh yeah!, you're right about triggers. Like Snow, Sophie's otherwise quiet, doesn't give the signals (thrashing tail, for example) that other cats do when they're getting worked up.
The previous time Sophie bit me she was at the window. Usually she likes to have me stroke her while she looks out. I noticed there was a cat mooching around outside, and I should've been aware that Sophie had noticed too. I should have stepped away, because, like a flash, she bit my thumb at the base, leaving puncture wounds on both sides. (Don't worry, folks. It healed up weeks ago.)
I know the aggression was from overstimulation in response to seeing another cat, and not about me at all. But that also means her aggressions can be difficult to notice and remedy.
It's a bit scary how strong and fast Sophie can be.
posted by zadcat at 8:43 AM on August 23, 2015
The previous time Sophie bit me she was at the window. Usually she likes to have me stroke her while she looks out. I noticed there was a cat mooching around outside, and I should've been aware that Sophie had noticed too. I should have stepped away, because, like a flash, she bit my thumb at the base, leaving puncture wounds on both sides. (Don't worry, folks. It healed up weeks ago.)
I know the aggression was from overstimulation in response to seeing another cat, and not about me at all. But that also means her aggressions can be difficult to notice and remedy.
It's a bit scary how strong and fast Sophie can be.
posted by zadcat at 8:43 AM on August 23, 2015
Response by poster: 100kb, thank you for the medical clarification. Even waiting to be seen in a walk-in clinic in central Montreal is basically to lose a day.
I don't fancy clicker training. I'm old enough to remember teachers using clicker training on us (wooden clappers, two clacks meant stand up, a second two clacks file out of classroom in order, and so on) and I don't think I could bring myself to do it to another creature.
But so far the nick in my leg is just a nick. I've never in my life had a cut become infected, although I suppose I know what it would look like. But I don't expect it now.
posted by zadcat at 12:29 PM on August 23, 2015
I don't fancy clicker training. I'm old enough to remember teachers using clicker training on us (wooden clappers, two clacks meant stand up, a second two clacks file out of classroom in order, and so on) and I don't think I could bring myself to do it to another creature.
But so far the nick in my leg is just a nick. I've never in my life had a cut become infected, although I suppose I know what it would look like. But I don't expect it now.
posted by zadcat at 12:29 PM on August 23, 2015
That's not really what clicker training is (We had bells for that sort of thing.). You basically teach the animal that the clicker means "good reward feelings right this second" so you don't lose seconds to the treat/reward distribution process. Then the click replaces the treat.
The problem with treat/reward training, besides calories, is that you're mostly teaching that getting a treat is good, and something unspecifically desirable probably happened recently but it's hard to tell what, which is how you end up with dogs who will do 5 behaviors every time you ask for "lay down" because they don't quite know which one is the one you liked/wanted. With clicker training, you can click the moment the cat looks away from you, for example, or when they step on their bed instead of your keyboard.
If you're not seeing any redness or swelling, you're probably out of the woods on a serious injury.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:04 PM on August 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
The problem with treat/reward training, besides calories, is that you're mostly teaching that getting a treat is good, and something unspecifically desirable probably happened recently but it's hard to tell what, which is how you end up with dogs who will do 5 behaviors every time you ask for "lay down" because they don't quite know which one is the one you liked/wanted. With clicker training, you can click the moment the cat looks away from you, for example, or when they step on their bed instead of your keyboard.
If you're not seeing any redness or swelling, you're probably out of the woods on a serious injury.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:04 PM on August 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I know the aggression was from overstimulation in response to seeing another cat, and not about me at all.
Yeah, that one sounds like re-directed aggression. She wanted to fight that cat invading her territory, and in the moment your hand became the other cat.
Getting back to the leg-chasing problem, it may be just the movement triggering her prey drive. In that moment she no longer sees your legs as being connected to your person. So, I agree with the suggestions above about distracting her focus with a thrown toy or loud noise.
But that also means her aggressions can be difficult to notice and remedy.
But, on the plus side, it does sound like there's always some kind of trigger you can figure out after the fact at least (as opposed to attacks happening completely at random, due to some physical/brain disorder). I've found with Snow I rarely make the same mistake twice. Even with this last popcorn-kernel-attack, I see now that I've allowed too much clutter to accumulate by one side of my couch, and I bet if the space under the end-table had been clear I would have seen her coming and been able to block her with a pillow before she made contact.
posted by oh yeah! at 4:09 PM on August 23, 2015
Yeah, that one sounds like re-directed aggression. She wanted to fight that cat invading her territory, and in the moment your hand became the other cat.
Getting back to the leg-chasing problem, it may be just the movement triggering her prey drive. In that moment she no longer sees your legs as being connected to your person. So, I agree with the suggestions above about distracting her focus with a thrown toy or loud noise.
But that also means her aggressions can be difficult to notice and remedy.
But, on the plus side, it does sound like there's always some kind of trigger you can figure out after the fact at least (as opposed to attacks happening completely at random, due to some physical/brain disorder). I've found with Snow I rarely make the same mistake twice. Even with this last popcorn-kernel-attack, I see now that I've allowed too much clutter to accumulate by one side of my couch, and I bet if the space under the end-table had been clear I would have seen her coming and been able to block her with a pillow before she made contact.
posted by oh yeah! at 4:09 PM on August 23, 2015
Response by poster: oh yeah!, you make a good point. Definitely there are reasons for her overreactions that I can see in retrospect. In a way, I'm at least as much letting Sophie train me to notice her dicey moments and work around them, as attempting to train her by indicating when certain behaviours are not desirable.
This would make more sense if she were my cat, but as it stands, I feel like I'll have to write a manual for whoever eventually adopts her permanently, if anyone does.
posted by zadcat at 7:05 PM on August 23, 2015
This would make more sense if she were my cat, but as it stands, I feel like I'll have to write a manual for whoever eventually adopts her permanently, if anyone does.
posted by zadcat at 7:05 PM on August 23, 2015
Oh, I think we all know that you have a new cat, and her name is Sophie. Mazel tov!
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 10:19 PM on August 23, 2015
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 10:19 PM on August 23, 2015
Response by poster: 2soxy4mypuppet, I hope not. I don't mind looking after Sophie but I'm not thrilled at embarking on years of this. It's possible the previous person who looked after her (she was passed from household to household for awhile, all for legitimate reasons too tedious to enumerate – one of the reasons she was unsettled when I took her on) will be able to take her back, because she loved this cat. And I will gladly give her back.
Over the last weeks two different cats have come up to me outdoors – not strays, just cats who were around – and hung out with me for a short while. They reminded me what it was like to have a nice cat around. Made me a bit sad to realize I'd been able to touch these cats I didn't know at all with much less apprehension than when I approach Sophie, who's probably always going to be kind of bitey. I'd prefer not to live with bitey, given a choice.
posted by zadcat at 5:20 AM on August 24, 2015
Over the last weeks two different cats have come up to me outdoors – not strays, just cats who were around – and hung out with me for a short while. They reminded me what it was like to have a nice cat around. Made me a bit sad to realize I'd been able to touch these cats I didn't know at all with much less apprehension than when I approach Sophie, who's probably always going to be kind of bitey. I'd prefer not to live with bitey, given a choice.
posted by zadcat at 5:20 AM on August 24, 2015
Response by poster: Wanted to follow up here, since people were concerned. The cat bite healed up without incident. Sophie has bitten me once since, too, but it was when I stepped on her tail in a dark hallway mishap, so she can't be blamed, and it too is almost healed up.
posted by zadcat at 9:13 PM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by zadcat at 9:13 PM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Glad to hear things have been relatively calm. I'm sure you'll be able to place her in a good 'forever home' even if you never completely cure her of the biting habit -- someone out there will think it's a challenge worth taking on, "Beauty & the Beast" isn't an enduring classic for nothing.
posted by oh yeah! at 8:57 AM on September 13, 2015
posted by oh yeah! at 8:57 AM on September 13, 2015
Response by poster: I never finalized this. Sophie went back to the previous person who'd had her, who loves her, and will be able to keep her. Since then I've fostered a sweet black and white cat who was adopted within weeks, and am now fostering a nice tabby. Neither of these cats has even thought about biting or scratching me. Thanks all.
posted by zadcat at 9:12 AM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zadcat at 9:12 AM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Hermione Granger at 5:25 PM on August 22, 2015 [1 favorite]