Let's say I'm a nuisance at the DMV: can they throw me out?

August 19, 2015 7:21 AM

This is for fiction: generally, what is the protocol when somebody pursuing necessary business at a government office becomes abusive? If they get thrown out/arrested, get bailed out, can they come back the next day? Or could they be barred, even though they have necessary business?

I assume ultimately a person who is a repeated nuisance gets themselves jailed for a longer-term period and/or medical evaluation, but I am curious about what happens before the person gets themselves jailed/hospitalized.

I mean, I can understand how an H&M could be all, 'that person cannot shop here' but the standard wouldn't be the same for somebody who has necessary business at a gov't office, right? Do they just repeatedly get the police involved when the person is a nuisance yet again?

Asking for fiction.

THANK YOU

posted by angrycat to Law & Government (12 answers total)

There is at least one person in my local DMV office who is a Peace Officer, complete with uniform, badge, and gun. So they could at least write you a ticket and maybe even arrest you.

This is in Iowa.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 7:29 AM on August 19, 2015

This won't help much, but I'd imagine it would vary widely based on the type of office/agency and the type of disturbance. The results could range anywhere from "Come back tomorrow" to literally being shot.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:30 AM on August 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Driving is a privilege, you have no right to have a license. The business might be necessary to you, but is not a protected right.

Depending on the level and nature of abuse and harassment the city attorney (most likely, although an ADA could as well) could seek a protective order barring the person from entering the DMV in question, or perhaps, all DMV buildings. It's generally easier for the government to seek a criminal protective order than a civil harassment protective order, so it's actually more likely the government would seek a criminal protective order.

But to get more specific, if you're character is being a jerk but not enough of a jerk to get instantly arrested (which they probably would be), this is the order I see things playing out.

1) Character is a jerk. An office is called. Character is told to leave. An incident report is written up after character leaves.
2) Character shows back up. Character is a jerk. Character is given a ticket and told to appear at court.

Stuff forks here:
3a) Character shows back up before they're supposed to be at court. Character is a jerk. Character is probably arrested.

3b) Character goes to court. Judge gives the person a talking to. (You could put a trial in here, but most people will not demand a trial and plead guilty to the misdemeanor. If your character is only charged with an infraction there will be no probation. A protective order can still be put in place, so the next part pretty much stays the same) Character is fined and put on probation. Ordered to only have "Peaceable contact" with DMV personal. Character is a jerk again, character is arrested again for a probation violation. Spends the night in jail. Given a talking to by judge. Told that in future they're going to spend significant time in jail.
4b) Character goes to DMV and is a jerk. Character arrested and spends time in jail. Character probation terms probably changed to not enter DMV property or have contact with DMV employees.

You're character should probably get a AAA membership and use their DMV services instead.

Now, if your character actually throws stuff at employees, destroyes DMV property, or directly attacks DMV employees skip directly to arrest.
posted by bswinburn at 7:37 AM on August 19, 2015 [10 favorites]

This isn't exactly what you're talking about but we've seen this sort of thing go down at public libraries. People who get banned from libraries "for cause" can sue if they know their way around their legal rights but realistically speaking, most do not. Libraries in difficult areas often have guards and/or friendly relationships with the police who enforce library bannings. Usually someone who is being disruptive will have some sort of progressive sanction, like you get asked to stop a few times, then you're removed and if you're removed a few times then you're banned. I'm fairly certain there must be policies for this in every public/govt building, I know libraries take it fairly seriously.
posted by jessamyn at 7:45 AM on August 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

Practically speaking, many things that can be transacted at one government office can be transacted at a different, less-convenient government office. There are many DMVs in the state, and Mr. Rowdy would presumably only get banned from the one(s) he visited. Similarly, there are many places one can get a passport, and if you're banned from your home county clerk's office you'll have to get your marriage license in the neighbor county, etc. And even things like libraries, I think you have to go around being a nuisance at all locations; you may have a reputation across the system, but you'd get officially banned from each branch individually.
posted by aimedwander at 8:14 AM on August 19, 2015

Banning someone from a government office doesn't automatically mean that person isn't able to conduct their business: as aimedwander says, there are lots of branch offices; plus a lot of things can be dealt with online. (Here in Virginia, for example, they downright encourage online over visiting branch offices, by doing things like charging a couple bucks more for in-person license plate renewals.) So, banning doesn't mean the rowdy person is totally unable to conduct legally-required business.

And like AgentCorvid, every government office I've seen has visible security officers.
posted by easily confused at 9:05 AM on August 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

I am thinking that how this plays out depends on details like the era the fiction is set in, how stupid or socially isolated they are, etc.

So, pre-internet, they keep going back to the DMV and being a jerk. Post-internet, they only do that if they are really assholishly vindictive and/or clueless, with zero friends to say "Hey, dude, before this ruins your career and life by getting you jailed, just use the online option. K?"

A few months ago, someone in another state needed something paid in any California DMV the very next day and couldn't wire it or pay it online or whatever. They sent me the money (plus extra to compensate for my time) and I went and handled it for them. So I think you would need to do a lot of research if you want this to be post-internet and you want your character to be a sympoathetic figure and not just someone being completely unnecessarily assholish. You would need to find a thing that can only be done in person, not online, and you would need some reason why a third party cannot do it for them. I think that would require you to find or make up some specific thing. Add in that it is obscure and the point of frustration is that a lot of employees have no clue how to deal with this. I saw bureacratic snafus of that sort sometimes while working for a big company. Sometimes something that only comes up once in a blue moon is something people have trouble resolving because no one knows how.

When I went to the DMV, my friend had given me innaccurate info and this resulted in trouble looking up the file. I can be (on a good day) articulate and persistent and diplomatic. I had my phone with me and called my friend back. Ultimately, it all got sorted and paid on the day it needed to be paid. But it was a situation that could readily have gone to hell for someone less smooth, less prepared, less familiar with how a big bureaucracy works etc.
posted by Michele in California at 9:59 AM on August 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

I didn't mean that there were security officers, I meant that in my state, the people working the desk are uniformed employees of the state's Department of Transportation, and at least some of them have badges and guns, just like a police officer.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 10:01 AM on August 19, 2015

I can't think of much that you'd actually need to go to a government office in person to do, you can give power of attorney to someone else to go in your place.

You do need to go somewhere in person to get a photo ID, but there are privately run DMV contractors in my state, so one does not need to go into a state office to do that.
posted by yohko at 10:09 AM on August 19, 2015

I am aware of someone who has a restraining order against them that includes their complete ban from a library and its property, in addition to protecting their sexual assault victim (a minor) and the victim's family.

Though it isn't quite synonymous with your example, their offense was committed in the library.
posted by stormyteal at 8:54 PM on August 19, 2015

I don't know how relevant this is to your scenario, but it's similar.

I work in Community Services in NSW, Australia. We're the government agency which exhausts all avenues in trying to help neglectful or abusive adults become decent parents, and then the very very last resort is removal of the children to be placed into foster care (hopefully with family members).

A couple of months ago, five children were ordered by the court to be removed from their parents after it was proven that their long-running neglect included repeated sexual assaults. The parents were understandably furious and came from court straight to our office to argue/protest, the father was angry and verbally abusive but the mother went absolutely ballistic, she punched a staff member and threw a brick through a car window. (Her children were in the car at the time, might I add.)

The police attended and arrested the mother. The father was strongly advised to go away and calm down. I don't think charges were pressed, but the police took out an AVO (Apprehended Violence Order, much the same as a restraining order) against the mother on behalf of the office staff. (Under newly revised domestic violence laws, NSW police have the power to take out an AVO on behalf of the victim - the onus isn't on the victim to do it.)

Under the terms of the AVO, the mother is allowed to ring the office for genuine enquiries, but she is not allowed to ring us to abuse us, or approach the office nor any of the staff members anywhere in our small country town.

Any Community Services business which requires her personal attendance - something that needs to be signed by her or read by her or given to her - is done at the police station, under the watchful eyes of the boys and girls in blue.
posted by malibustacey9999 at 12:37 AM on August 20, 2015

I was once thrown out of a DMV in Connecticut. After a lengthy and infuriating conversation with a clerk (it's a long story) I ended up screaming at her at the top of my lungs. Two uniformed officers came and escorted my by my elbows out the doors. I went back the following day, luckily got a clerk that was not a moron and completed my business. OMMV
posted by txmon at 9:18 AM on August 20, 2015