How can I stop putting so much emphasis on womens beauty relationshps
August 5, 2015 1:41 AM Subscribe
I am putting too much empahsis on women's beauty in my relationships. My last relationship ended couple of two months ago and it was a disaster. My ex-girlfriend was very beautiful but she had a poor character. Our relationship lasted about a year. It was not an equal relationship and she expected to be treated like a princes. In the beginning I was treating her like that and had no problem. However once the honeymoon phase passed I demanded equality in our relationship and she was not willing to make any compromise.
I honestly do not blame her though. After dating her for one year, I realized that she pretty much could get what ever she wanted by using her beauty. Everybody seem to treat her differentlyy because of her looks even in professional environment. If I were in her shoes I might have done the same thing. My problem now is that I can not move on with my life and cant get over her easily. Even though few days after our breakup she was at Vegas partying with her freinds I cant stop thinking about her and move on after two months. I even had to start anti depression medication. I keep thinking how poorly she treated me in the reltionship but it still does not help much. Its almost like I got addicted to her beauty and do not care about the consequences. How can I work on myself to overcome this weakness ?
I honestly do not blame her though. After dating her for one year, I realized that she pretty much could get what ever she wanted by using her beauty. Everybody seem to treat her differentlyy because of her looks even in professional environment. If I were in her shoes I might have done the same thing. My problem now is that I can not move on with my life and cant get over her easily. Even though few days after our breakup she was at Vegas partying with her freinds I cant stop thinking about her and move on after two months. I even had to start anti depression medication. I keep thinking how poorly she treated me in the reltionship but it still does not help much. Its almost like I got addicted to her beauty and do not care about the consequences. How can I work on myself to overcome this weakness ?
You will get over her. You can start by going no contact so you don't see how much fun she *appears* to be having with her friends, because that's not going to help you detach.
Also, start as you mean to go on, and demand equality from the get-go. Hopefully that equality means you are treating each other really well.
As for overcoming the beauty trap, I think that will probably come from getting a more mature sense of what good relationships look like and getting to know people in greater depth. You should really get a handle on why you allowed yourself to be treated poorly for so long, too. How to be an Adult in Relationships would be a good book to read.
After awhile, I think her beauty is going to be just another fact about her, and that the complete picture of her and what happened with you will be the thing that comes to mind when you think about her and you will recognize the futility of giving energy to it and stop automatically. You'll find someone else you really enjoy looking at.
posted by alphanerd at 2:25 AM on August 5, 2015 [7 favorites]
Also, start as you mean to go on, and demand equality from the get-go. Hopefully that equality means you are treating each other really well.
As for overcoming the beauty trap, I think that will probably come from getting a more mature sense of what good relationships look like and getting to know people in greater depth. You should really get a handle on why you allowed yourself to be treated poorly for so long, too. How to be an Adult in Relationships would be a good book to read.
After awhile, I think her beauty is going to be just another fact about her, and that the complete picture of her and what happened with you will be the thing that comes to mind when you think about her and you will recognize the futility of giving energy to it and stop automatically. You'll find someone else you really enjoy looking at.
posted by alphanerd at 2:25 AM on August 5, 2015 [7 favorites]
The suckiest thing about the beauty trap is there is this VERITABLE FIREHOSE of media imagery pretty much designed to make us desire it. Even worse, so much of that imagery ISN'T EVEN REAL!
So when we try to get out we can't just decide to be "less shallow", as if it's some switch we could just flip if we were a good enough person, we have to actively work at cultivating acceptance of a wider range of beauties. So here are some suggestions of things you can do for that:
* Cut down as much as you can on media that focuses prominently on "conventionally attractive" people. Unfortunately, this is going to be harder for you than it would be for me. As a heterosexual woman, I automatically get exposed to a much wider variety of men in my media presented as major characters than I think most heterosexual men do for women. You don't have to never partake again, let's be realistic, but at the very least you want to avoid enough for a few months to try and recalibrate your subconscious expectations about what people "should" look like to be beautiful.
* Look at the people around you day to day and make efforts to find something you like about the way they look. I don't mean trying to make yourself be attracted to people you're not attracted to, just to find something about the way they look that you can count as a positive. This counts even for people that you don't want to date--genders that you're not attracted to, people older/younger than your suitable age range.
* Actively seek out media that features people that don't fit into the normal model mold. Even (or heck especially) in erotica/porn (for instance, http://sexisnottheenemy.tumblr.com or Smut Peddler which are erotic comics made by women https://ironcircus.com/shop/ ) because even if it's not something that turns your crank it's worthwhile to be able to at least be cognizant of all sorts of people being sexual in all sorts of different ways and that it is a joyful joyful thing, that not being model worthy doesn't mean our sex turns into grim second hand leavings.
* Read more narratives written by women about women. This helps recalibrate women from objects into people with agency.
posted by foxfirefey at 3:02 AM on August 5, 2015 [12 favorites]
So when we try to get out we can't just decide to be "less shallow", as if it's some switch we could just flip if we were a good enough person, we have to actively work at cultivating acceptance of a wider range of beauties. So here are some suggestions of things you can do for that:
* Cut down as much as you can on media that focuses prominently on "conventionally attractive" people. Unfortunately, this is going to be harder for you than it would be for me. As a heterosexual woman, I automatically get exposed to a much wider variety of men in my media presented as major characters than I think most heterosexual men do for women. You don't have to never partake again, let's be realistic, but at the very least you want to avoid enough for a few months to try and recalibrate your subconscious expectations about what people "should" look like to be beautiful.
* Look at the people around you day to day and make efforts to find something you like about the way they look. I don't mean trying to make yourself be attracted to people you're not attracted to, just to find something about the way they look that you can count as a positive. This counts even for people that you don't want to date--genders that you're not attracted to, people older/younger than your suitable age range.
* Actively seek out media that features people that don't fit into the normal model mold. Even (or heck especially) in erotica/porn (for instance, http://sexisnottheenemy.tumblr.com or Smut Peddler which are erotic comics made by women https://ironcircus.com/shop/ ) because even if it's not something that turns your crank it's worthwhile to be able to at least be cognizant of all sorts of people being sexual in all sorts of different ways and that it is a joyful joyful thing, that not being model worthy doesn't mean our sex turns into grim second hand leavings.
* Read more narratives written by women about women. This helps recalibrate women from objects into people with agency.
posted by foxfirefey at 3:02 AM on August 5, 2015 [12 favorites]
Your question history has a lot of questions about women and relationships. Some of them deal with trust, some of them deal with this fixation with physical appearance, some of them reveal odd double standards. I think your general view of relationships and women needs a lot of work, and this is just one of the symptoms. Is physical beauty important to you as a marker of social status? Is it because your main way of connecting in a relationship is sexual?
I don't think you're going to get answers here that completely resolve this, but I think they'll be a good springboard. I think you need to figure out what relationships mean to you and what a healthy relationship would look like. I think the previous, repeated advice to seek therapy is a good one - not because there's anything wrong with you, but because it takes us a while to change old habits and break free from hangups, and we often need an outside perspective to help us notice patterns and figure out what needs to change. And I think you should get to know more women outside of a dating context; this can help you see that there's more to women than their appearance, and there are more ways to interact with women than the patterns you're used to.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:02 AM on August 5, 2015 [47 favorites]
I don't think you're going to get answers here that completely resolve this, but I think they'll be a good springboard. I think you need to figure out what relationships mean to you and what a healthy relationship would look like. I think the previous, repeated advice to seek therapy is a good one - not because there's anything wrong with you, but because it takes us a while to change old habits and break free from hangups, and we often need an outside perspective to help us notice patterns and figure out what needs to change. And I think you should get to know more women outside of a dating context; this can help you see that there's more to women than their appearance, and there are more ways to interact with women than the patterns you're used to.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:02 AM on August 5, 2015 [47 favorites]
Maybe consider why you are dating anyone in the first place. Do you want someone pretty to bring around to parties and impress your friends? Or are you trying to find a friend to spend time with, someone who will support you through life's travails? If it's the latter you're after, placing so much emphasis on looks is just not logical. So sit down and really think about what you want and why you're putting yourself through all this. Dating is entirely optional, after all.
posted by deathpanels at 4:45 AM on August 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by deathpanels at 4:45 AM on August 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've noticed a lot that while society and the media largely value women based on their appearance, men's worth, attractiveness, value is often seen as evidenced by the women they can attract and make their partners.
I've known men who cared more about whether their friends thought their girlfriend was hot than they valued whether they were personally attracted to them or had any actual chemistry with them.
I'm not saying this too be overly harsh because I realize you understand your feelings about her beauty are problematic, but you sound like you crashed your brand new car, not that you lost someone you loved. I realize she treated you poorly and it's good the relationship is over, but you aren't really upset about that. You're upset you lost your favorite pretty shiny object. A pretty shiny object that made you the envy of both friends and strangers. And while you know there will be other objects, part of you is probably knows realistically you are unlikely to acquire such a pretty shiny object ever again.
Which is to say that this is both about your ego, your own sense of self worth, and about how you value women, and by extension by how you judge other men based upon the attractiveness of the women they are with. You must change all these things if you don't want to continue to fall into this pattern of being in bad relationships because you are with women only because of their looks and then obsessing about them if you are unable to quickly find someone else that is equally or more conventionally attractive.
I don't have any quick way to do this. It's something that takes constant questioning of your thoughts, values and assumptions. How do your own thoughts and actions imply that women's worth is ultimately about her physical appearance? Do you treat attractive women better than you do women you do not find to be attractive? I'm not talking about dating here or expecting you to date someone you aren't attracted to. I'm talking about friends, the barista at the coffee shop, your coworker who is invisible to you. Do you mock men whose significant others are overweight or not whatever you deem to be sufficiently conventionally attractive? If one of your friends says something derogatory about a women's looks, do you call them out for being an asshole?
Unprogramming all the crap society tells women about their bodies is a process and not an easy one. It'll take a lot of work and you'll probably encounter a lot of pushback from those around you. In time though hopefully you will be able to value women based upon more than their looks. When you are no longer zeroing in on a woman's looks above all else and are valuing her other qualities, you'll likely find yourself attracted to a broader range of women and less obsessed with beautiful women in general.
posted by whoaali at 4:48 AM on August 5, 2015 [26 favorites]
I've known men who cared more about whether their friends thought their girlfriend was hot than they valued whether they were personally attracted to them or had any actual chemistry with them.
I'm not saying this too be overly harsh because I realize you understand your feelings about her beauty are problematic, but you sound like you crashed your brand new car, not that you lost someone you loved. I realize she treated you poorly and it's good the relationship is over, but you aren't really upset about that. You're upset you lost your favorite pretty shiny object. A pretty shiny object that made you the envy of both friends and strangers. And while you know there will be other objects, part of you is probably knows realistically you are unlikely to acquire such a pretty shiny object ever again.
Which is to say that this is both about your ego, your own sense of self worth, and about how you value women, and by extension by how you judge other men based upon the attractiveness of the women they are with. You must change all these things if you don't want to continue to fall into this pattern of being in bad relationships because you are with women only because of their looks and then obsessing about them if you are unable to quickly find someone else that is equally or more conventionally attractive.
I don't have any quick way to do this. It's something that takes constant questioning of your thoughts, values and assumptions. How do your own thoughts and actions imply that women's worth is ultimately about her physical appearance? Do you treat attractive women better than you do women you do not find to be attractive? I'm not talking about dating here or expecting you to date someone you aren't attracted to. I'm talking about friends, the barista at the coffee shop, your coworker who is invisible to you. Do you mock men whose significant others are overweight or not whatever you deem to be sufficiently conventionally attractive? If one of your friends says something derogatory about a women's looks, do you call them out for being an asshole?
Unprogramming all the crap society tells women about their bodies is a process and not an easy one. It'll take a lot of work and you'll probably encounter a lot of pushback from those around you. In time though hopefully you will be able to value women based upon more than their looks. When you are no longer zeroing in on a woman's looks above all else and are valuing her other qualities, you'll likely find yourself attracted to a broader range of women and less obsessed with beautiful women in general.
posted by whoaali at 4:48 AM on August 5, 2015 [26 favorites]
I want to unpack your question a bit.
My ex-girlfriend was very beautiful but she had a poor character.
Dude, saying someone has a poor character is very judgmental.
she expected to be treated like a princes. In the beginning I was treating her like that and had no problem. However once the honeymoon phase passed I demanded equality in our relationship and she was not willing to make any compromise.
If I'm reading this right and maybe I'm not, in early days you did more for her and were on your best behavior.
Then you stopped. And you started demanding things change. So maybe from her perspective, you were a really caring person and then you flipped the script and started demanding that she change her behavior and she reasonably said no. She thought you were a certain type of boyfriend and then you not only stopped being that guy, but started demanding she do things. This wouldn't sit right with anyone.
I realized that she pretty much could get what ever she wanted by using her beauty. Everybody seem to treat her differentlyy because of her looks even in professional environment. If I were in her shoes I might have done the same thing.
This is really judgmental, reinforces the worst stereotypes about women, and is really not cool. It's also kind of mean.
I keep thinking how poorly she treated me in the reltionship I can only go by what you wrote, but it seems like you were on your best behavior for a bit then stopped and changed. It seems more like you were presenting a false self then changed on her. And instead of thinking about that, you're slamming her character, saying she relied on her looks to skate through life, and asking how YOU can not be swayed by attractive women.
I think the better answer is to act like yourself throughout the relationship, don't switch mid-stream and start demanding your partner do things differently because you've decided to show them who you really are, and don't rely on stereotypes of "pretty but stupid."
posted by kinetic at 5:06 AM on August 5, 2015 [55 favorites]
My ex-girlfriend was very beautiful but she had a poor character.
Dude, saying someone has a poor character is very judgmental.
she expected to be treated like a princes. In the beginning I was treating her like that and had no problem. However once the honeymoon phase passed I demanded equality in our relationship and she was not willing to make any compromise.
If I'm reading this right and maybe I'm not, in early days you did more for her and were on your best behavior.
Then you stopped. And you started demanding things change. So maybe from her perspective, you were a really caring person and then you flipped the script and started demanding that she change her behavior and she reasonably said no. She thought you were a certain type of boyfriend and then you not only stopped being that guy, but started demanding she do things. This wouldn't sit right with anyone.
I realized that she pretty much could get what ever she wanted by using her beauty. Everybody seem to treat her differentlyy because of her looks even in professional environment. If I were in her shoes I might have done the same thing.
This is really judgmental, reinforces the worst stereotypes about women, and is really not cool. It's also kind of mean.
I keep thinking how poorly she treated me in the reltionship I can only go by what you wrote, but it seems like you were on your best behavior for a bit then stopped and changed. It seems more like you were presenting a false self then changed on her. And instead of thinking about that, you're slamming her character, saying she relied on her looks to skate through life, and asking how YOU can not be swayed by attractive women.
I think the better answer is to act like yourself throughout the relationship, don't switch mid-stream and start demanding your partner do things differently because you've decided to show them who you really are, and don't rely on stereotypes of "pretty but stupid."
posted by kinetic at 5:06 AM on August 5, 2015 [55 favorites]
What's this "honeymoon period" thing? If you weren't up for "treating her like a princess" for the duration, what was the "treating her like a princess" in the beginning about? It sounds like you think that was you voluntarily being a chump. Well? Why did you volunteer? Was there an unspoken contract? I guess something like this: "I agree to fulfill what I consider to be unreasonable demands for 30 to 90 days of service at the beginning of our relationship, after which time you have been purchased in full. No more unreasonable demands will be honored after that time." Maybe next time just say it out loud from the git: "Here are some flowers, but don't get used to it or anything." "Sure, I'll pick up your dry cleaning, but after the 6th of next month I will never do you a favor like that again." "Here is a tennis bracelet, O adorable one. (Please note, no more ridiculous jewelry after September 6 and I won't call you "adorable" anymore after that either.)"
posted by Don Pepino at 5:17 AM on August 5, 2015 [36 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 5:17 AM on August 5, 2015 [36 favorites]
It sounds like you are a very competitive guy. You want the best, you think you deserve the best, and then you do whatever it takes to get the best. And then once you get it, you get a little bored with it. This is all pretty common, by the way. You will be happy once you stop using dating as a competition and start using it as a way to build a meaningful connection with a woman.
Somewhere along the way, someone gave you the impression that you aren't winning at life if you don't have a pretty plastic Barbie on your arm. Therapy can help you unravel this and get you to the truth of your insecurities.
True happiness in a relationship happens when a woman allows you to see her at her most vulnerable, at home in her elastic waist pants, no bra, unwashed hair in a ponytail, no makeup, and eating carbs. If you aren't seeing that in a relationship then you aren't getting the good stuff. Yes, it feels good to walk in to a room with a beautiful woman and have everyone look at her but that adrenaline rush won't get you through flu season.
And, as a reasonably attractive woman, I can tell you, we can tell when you are only interested in us for our appearance. And we do eventually end up hating you for it.
posted by myselfasme at 5:40 AM on August 5, 2015 [15 favorites]
Somewhere along the way, someone gave you the impression that you aren't winning at life if you don't have a pretty plastic Barbie on your arm. Therapy can help you unravel this and get you to the truth of your insecurities.
True happiness in a relationship happens when a woman allows you to see her at her most vulnerable, at home in her elastic waist pants, no bra, unwashed hair in a ponytail, no makeup, and eating carbs. If you aren't seeing that in a relationship then you aren't getting the good stuff. Yes, it feels good to walk in to a room with a beautiful woman and have everyone look at her but that adrenaline rush won't get you through flu season.
And, as a reasonably attractive woman, I can tell you, we can tell when you are only interested in us for our appearance. And we do eventually end up hating you for it.
posted by myselfasme at 5:40 AM on August 5, 2015 [15 favorites]
So... you were actually diagnosed with depression, and prescribed SSRIs? Did your physician say this was only a temporary thing based on the breakup, or did he or she suggest that you have longstanding depression problems?
Regardless of whether you are depressed and need to be taking medication for it, it sounds like you have a lot to work through. A physician who gives you drugs that help is great, but you need help processing shit. I think you really need to find a good talk therapist and make regular appointments. I think it will really help you to work through what happened in this relationship, as well as your previous ones, and to work through what you should expect or look for in future relationships.
For your next relationship, if you want to be treated like an equal, don't start out by making yourself unequal.
posted by J. Wilson at 6:01 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Regardless of whether you are depressed and need to be taking medication for it, it sounds like you have a lot to work through. A physician who gives you drugs that help is great, but you need help processing shit. I think you really need to find a good talk therapist and make regular appointments. I think it will really help you to work through what happened in this relationship, as well as your previous ones, and to work through what you should expect or look for in future relationships.
For your next relationship, if you want to be treated like an equal, don't start out by making yourself unequal.
posted by J. Wilson at 6:01 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
All of these comments are well worth considering. Let me also ask: do you ever consider how being with someone makes you feel? What kind of feelings do you experience? It seems as though, in selecting a partner, you tend to check boxes (or uncheck them), with appearance as your number one criterion and compliance not far behind.
Perhaps dating a beautiful woman makes you very insecure, so that you go through an exhausting stage where you "treat her like a princess" in order to hold on to her but in a way that is unsustainable in the long run, especially if whatever attraction there was on either side wasn't all that sustainable either. Some beautiful women do trade on their beauty, I'm sure, but what you're describing as "poor character" on your ex-girlfriend's part may simply have been the result of incompatibility and her reaction to her feeling that you were objectifying her. Love and respect don't thrive in those circumstances.
Maybe you should try examining your own reactions to being around different kinds of women...and not just those you consider your type. Do you think, when you're with them, "Look at me--I'm with a beautiful woman?" Or do they make you feel comfortable, accepted, respected, loved--and, more importantly, do they inspire you to want to respect and love them back and make them feel comfortable and accepted in return? The woman who most inspires these feelings in you may not be the drop-dead gorgeous sort to whom you usually gravitate.
Sexual attraction and intellectual stimulation can ignite a relationship, but without a foundation of kindness and compassion and empathy, they tend to crumble away. (Whether you're religious or not, the Christian New Testament writer St. Paul was wrong about a hell of a lot of things, but he was absolutely right about this.)
posted by tully_monster at 6:04 AM on August 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
Perhaps dating a beautiful woman makes you very insecure, so that you go through an exhausting stage where you "treat her like a princess" in order to hold on to her but in a way that is unsustainable in the long run, especially if whatever attraction there was on either side wasn't all that sustainable either. Some beautiful women do trade on their beauty, I'm sure, but what you're describing as "poor character" on your ex-girlfriend's part may simply have been the result of incompatibility and her reaction to her feeling that you were objectifying her. Love and respect don't thrive in those circumstances.
Maybe you should try examining your own reactions to being around different kinds of women...and not just those you consider your type. Do you think, when you're with them, "Look at me--I'm with a beautiful woman?" Or do they make you feel comfortable, accepted, respected, loved--and, more importantly, do they inspire you to want to respect and love them back and make them feel comfortable and accepted in return? The woman who most inspires these feelings in you may not be the drop-dead gorgeous sort to whom you usually gravitate.
Sexual attraction and intellectual stimulation can ignite a relationship, but without a foundation of kindness and compassion and empathy, they tend to crumble away. (Whether you're religious or not, the Christian New Testament writer St. Paul was wrong about a hell of a lot of things, but he was absolutely right about this.)
posted by tully_monster at 6:04 AM on August 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm trying to figure out how to say this gently and am not doing a great job, but so much of what you're describing sounds ... well, cliched, really - if I were going to write the internal monologue of a stereotypical misogynistic man, a lot of what you're saying would be on that page: she was very beautiful but had very poor character ... she expected to be treated like a princess ... she pretty much could get what ever she wanted by using her beauty ... Everybody seems to treat her differently because of her looks ... I don't mean to say that you're deliberately misogynistic, but I have to wonder how accurate your take on her is, and how much you're viewing things through the lens of some seriously harmful cultural baggage against women and their beauty.
Along the same lines, I keep getting hung up on your comment that you eventually "demanded equality" in your relationship. I absolutely agree with you that this relationship started out unequal, but not in the way you seem to think. From what you're describing here, you began this relationship treating this person as a beautiful object, one whose beauty you "rewarded" with extra favors or whatnot, but still just a pretty item. Hell no, that isn't equal. I can't imagine that she really wanted to be with someone who only treated her nicely because of her looks - that sounds depressing and degrading to me, not something she should have felt grateful to you for.
If you want an equal relationship, you need to focus on that from the beginning - by understanding that women are people, and responding to them as such.
posted by DingoMutt at 6:28 AM on August 5, 2015 [31 favorites]
Along the same lines, I keep getting hung up on your comment that you eventually "demanded equality" in your relationship. I absolutely agree with you that this relationship started out unequal, but not in the way you seem to think. From what you're describing here, you began this relationship treating this person as a beautiful object, one whose beauty you "rewarded" with extra favors or whatnot, but still just a pretty item. Hell no, that isn't equal. I can't imagine that she really wanted to be with someone who only treated her nicely because of her looks - that sounds depressing and degrading to me, not something she should have felt grateful to you for.
If you want an equal relationship, you need to focus on that from the beginning - by understanding that women are people, and responding to them as such.
posted by DingoMutt at 6:28 AM on August 5, 2015 [31 favorites]
Sexual attraction comes in many flavors, but a top level bifarcation is: people who spark desire based on how they look and people who spark desire based on who they are. Some people's appearance branches are thick and strong--beauty sparks desire--while the personality branch is scrawny and flimsy; friends aren't attractive to them.
Of course the ideal partner will sit in the rarefied area above that branch and satisfy both. We want that so badly! The reality is that have push prospective mates up the branch into that territory, by getting to know the unattainable beauty's personality and by finding the beauty brought out by the pleasing personality. The problem is that we so want the partner to be both that during limerence we fool ourselves into thinking the relationship works for both brain and bod and we try to goose the process by not being ourselves, whether that just means being extra wonderful or molding ourselves into something else (sure, I like x!). If limerence endures, we spend too long on the effort or, at worst, jump into permanence pre-maturely.
You tried to push this woman up the beauty branch and it didn't work out. Now you blame her as some of the folks upthread have detailed. But it's not about her; your process is defective. Start valuing the other branch too and maybe even try beginning from it.
Do you have any female friends with whom you can be your authentic self and relax? Who you know really well and, in turn, appreciate despite knowing that they're not perfect? Sit with the idea of how nice it would be to feel that way with your partner and have sexual attraction.
I'm not recommending that you start hitting on your female friends. But what if you made a conscious effort to think about your dates' personalities and compatibility before you got to the part where you jump their bones? What if you made yourself wait longer before initiating physical intimacy... maybe until after you had discovered whether you could achieve emotional intimacy with them? A personal connection?
I think you'll find that the women who you approach because they show promise on the personality side of the bifarcation grow more attractive to you. Since the people who you approach because they're beautiful will have a much wider range of personalities, it makes sense that you would find compatibility with fewer of them.
And, for the record, people are happiest with folks who are approximately the same level of attractiveness.
posted by carmicha at 6:42 AM on August 5, 2015 [6 favorites]
Of course the ideal partner will sit in the rarefied area above that branch and satisfy both. We want that so badly! The reality is that have push prospective mates up the branch into that territory, by getting to know the unattainable beauty's personality and by finding the beauty brought out by the pleasing personality. The problem is that we so want the partner to be both that during limerence we fool ourselves into thinking the relationship works for both brain and bod and we try to goose the process by not being ourselves, whether that just means being extra wonderful or molding ourselves into something else (sure, I like x!). If limerence endures, we spend too long on the effort or, at worst, jump into permanence pre-maturely.
You tried to push this woman up the beauty branch and it didn't work out. Now you blame her as some of the folks upthread have detailed. But it's not about her; your process is defective. Start valuing the other branch too and maybe even try beginning from it.
Do you have any female friends with whom you can be your authentic self and relax? Who you know really well and, in turn, appreciate despite knowing that they're not perfect? Sit with the idea of how nice it would be to feel that way with your partner and have sexual attraction.
I'm not recommending that you start hitting on your female friends. But what if you made a conscious effort to think about your dates' personalities and compatibility before you got to the part where you jump their bones? What if you made yourself wait longer before initiating physical intimacy... maybe until after you had discovered whether you could achieve emotional intimacy with them? A personal connection?
I think you'll find that the women who you approach because they show promise on the personality side of the bifarcation grow more attractive to you. Since the people who you approach because they're beautiful will have a much wider range of personalities, it makes sense that you would find compatibility with fewer of them.
And, for the record, people are happiest with folks who are approximately the same level of attractiveness.
posted by carmicha at 6:42 AM on August 5, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'm reading between the lines and hear you saying this: "If I could get over my need for beauty and stomach being with a less attractive person, wouldn't they treat me better because they are grateful I want to date them?"
If you think about it, could this woman have been thinking the same about you? Maybe you were the less attractive one in this scenario. Would you want someone you dated to feel like you do now? I hope the answer is no!
So throw out the generalized assumptions of whether beautiful people are shallow or ugly ones will treat you better. Please do as sockermom so eloquently suggests and create a list of traits that are important to you in a relationship that have nothing to do with a woman's outward appearance. Do some soul searching as to what you want your ideal (but realistic) relationship to be like and put those traits on the list too. What specific things constitute good character to you? Put those on your list. Sort your list into must haves and great to haves. Then start thinking of questions you can ask to determine early on whether a woman meets your must haves rather than waiting over a year to figure it all out.
posted by cecic at 7:14 AM on August 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
If you think about it, could this woman have been thinking the same about you? Maybe you were the less attractive one in this scenario. Would you want someone you dated to feel like you do now? I hope the answer is no!
So throw out the generalized assumptions of whether beautiful people are shallow or ugly ones will treat you better. Please do as sockermom so eloquently suggests and create a list of traits that are important to you in a relationship that have nothing to do with a woman's outward appearance. Do some soul searching as to what you want your ideal (but realistic) relationship to be like and put those traits on the list too. What specific things constitute good character to you? Put those on your list. Sort your list into must haves and great to haves. Then start thinking of questions you can ask to determine early on whether a woman meets your must haves rather than waiting over a year to figure it all out.
posted by cecic at 7:14 AM on August 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
You're right in that society (and media) as a whole tends to both covet and reward conventional beauty; this isn't limited to women, and it is also dependent on skin color and age.
Did you know that different cultures have different beauty standards? Probably. But perhaps you didn't know that studies have shown that people exposed to certain types of visual images, tend to prefer them, and that immigrants that change cultures often change beauty standards depending on what they're exposed to.
Basically, there's a such thing as a visual diet that is shaped by our media, and society, and exposing yourself to different kinds of 'beauty' other than just conventional will help that somewhat. You need to expand your visual diet.
But looks =/= personality. There's no real correlation. You're just as likely to find an 'ugly' person with an ugly or difficult personality. Everyone has at least one issue, too. People are people. You need to relate to women on a personal level. They are not objects or trophies.
Also, therapy. There may be more at play here. For example, it may make you feel good to have someone conventionally beautiful, partly because of how it will look to others. We look for approval in our peer group, and women are objectified constantly in that manner. Perhaps the addiction you feel is to that. Lastly, looks are fleeting. Attraction does play a big part in a relationship, but obsession with perfection will just make everyone miserable.
So get a hobby. Become more interesting. Meet someone you connect with, and are also attracted to. Pursue that. Dating someone simply for their looks (whether they are conventionally attractive, or whether they aren't) is always a bad idea.
posted by Dimes at 7:42 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Did you know that different cultures have different beauty standards? Probably. But perhaps you didn't know that studies have shown that people exposed to certain types of visual images, tend to prefer them, and that immigrants that change cultures often change beauty standards depending on what they're exposed to.
Basically, there's a such thing as a visual diet that is shaped by our media, and society, and exposing yourself to different kinds of 'beauty' other than just conventional will help that somewhat. You need to expand your visual diet.
But looks =/= personality. There's no real correlation. You're just as likely to find an 'ugly' person with an ugly or difficult personality. Everyone has at least one issue, too. People are people. You need to relate to women on a personal level. They are not objects or trophies.
Also, therapy. There may be more at play here. For example, it may make you feel good to have someone conventionally beautiful, partly because of how it will look to others. We look for approval in our peer group, and women are objectified constantly in that manner. Perhaps the addiction you feel is to that. Lastly, looks are fleeting. Attraction does play a big part in a relationship, but obsession with perfection will just make everyone miserable.
So get a hobby. Become more interesting. Meet someone you connect with, and are also attracted to. Pursue that. Dating someone simply for their looks (whether they are conventionally attractive, or whether they aren't) is always a bad idea.
posted by Dimes at 7:42 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
I struggle a ton with this. My biggest problem is that my "ideal partner" changes every day. Unfortunately, that means that a ton of time I spend unhappy because I care about these things.
I am so angry with myself and media that I have been programmed to care about my partners beauty. However, I can't imagine walking in to a therapist and discussing this issue. It's not really negatively effecting my life more than a slight dissatisfaction. Other advice like trying to consume a wider variety of media that depicts fewer physically beautiful women, I think, also wouldn't work. Seeing people you don't consider physically beautiful will still have you rating and judging those people based on looks.
One strategy I try frequently is to put my anxiety about other's actions back into myself and use it to motivate myself to improve myself and do things like exercise or clean. However, sometimes I worry that this even further increases my perception that physical appearance is the most important thing to me.
Something I have experiemented with recently is increasing my consumption of media with women that are very passionate about a topic. Watching TED talks and participating in Q&A sessions is a great start to this.
I'm hoping this changes in myself as I grow older, but for now, I'm pretty happy reading books and I'm hopeful in the future that I will learn, through experiences like yours, that there are much more beautiful things in life than physical appearance.
Last thought - users of porn really program themselves this way very strongly by causing sexualism to connect with such a hugely strong reinforcer like a male orgasm. I'm pretty sure that if someone looked at different cardboard box every time they did this, it wouldn't take long for them to be excited (and put a lot of value on!) the different types of cardboard. I'm not saying you do this or that you need to stop entirely, but it's definitely something to be aware of. Abstaining except rarely, focusing your thoughts (only thoughts, not visual/audio stimulation) on aspects of a healthy relationship, like a dinner out, sitting by moonlight, watching the stars, could POSSIBLY help reprogram you a little bit, but I'm skeptical that it is possible to overwrite decades of media and self-programming in this manner. Either way, definitely something to think about.
Good luck, and I hope you can find a way to be happy with your own desires!
posted by bbqturtle at 8:36 AM on August 5, 2015
I am so angry with myself and media that I have been programmed to care about my partners beauty. However, I can't imagine walking in to a therapist and discussing this issue. It's not really negatively effecting my life more than a slight dissatisfaction. Other advice like trying to consume a wider variety of media that depicts fewer physically beautiful women, I think, also wouldn't work. Seeing people you don't consider physically beautiful will still have you rating and judging those people based on looks.
One strategy I try frequently is to put my anxiety about other's actions back into myself and use it to motivate myself to improve myself and do things like exercise or clean. However, sometimes I worry that this even further increases my perception that physical appearance is the most important thing to me.
Something I have experiemented with recently is increasing my consumption of media with women that are very passionate about a topic. Watching TED talks and participating in Q&A sessions is a great start to this.
I'm hoping this changes in myself as I grow older, but for now, I'm pretty happy reading books and I'm hopeful in the future that I will learn, through experiences like yours, that there are much more beautiful things in life than physical appearance.
Last thought - users of porn really program themselves this way very strongly by causing sexualism to connect with such a hugely strong reinforcer like a male orgasm. I'm pretty sure that if someone looked at different cardboard box every time they did this, it wouldn't take long for them to be excited (and put a lot of value on!) the different types of cardboard. I'm not saying you do this or that you need to stop entirely, but it's definitely something to be aware of. Abstaining except rarely, focusing your thoughts (only thoughts, not visual/audio stimulation) on aspects of a healthy relationship, like a dinner out, sitting by moonlight, watching the stars, could POSSIBLY help reprogram you a little bit, but I'm skeptical that it is possible to overwrite decades of media and self-programming in this manner. Either way, definitely something to think about.
Good luck, and I hope you can find a way to be happy with your own desires!
posted by bbqturtle at 8:36 AM on August 5, 2015
Bear with me here. I'm going to say some tough stuff but it is 100% with the intention of helping you figure out how to be happier.
That said.. you sound kind of like a dick. You treated this woman kindly for a while and then completely changed how you behaved toward her. When she reacted poorly to the bait and switch, you completely blame it on her appearance and a whole bunch of misogynistic stereotypes and not the fact that you totally baited and switched her!
It sounds mainly like you lack empathy for women and treat them as a goal to achieve or a box to check rather than a full human being with thoughts and feelings in their own right. There are a ton of stories in the emotional labor thread about this very tactic from men and how awful it feels to discover your partner has just been pretending to be a good person to trick you into staying with them. Go read that thread with an open mind and heart and I guarantee you'll discover some things that will help to make you happier in the long term.
posted by zug at 10:10 AM on August 5, 2015 [9 favorites]
That said.. you sound kind of like a dick. You treated this woman kindly for a while and then completely changed how you behaved toward her. When she reacted poorly to the bait and switch, you completely blame it on her appearance and a whole bunch of misogynistic stereotypes and not the fact that you totally baited and switched her!
It sounds mainly like you lack empathy for women and treat them as a goal to achieve or a box to check rather than a full human being with thoughts and feelings in their own right. There are a ton of stories in the emotional labor thread about this very tactic from men and how awful it feels to discover your partner has just been pretending to be a good person to trick you into staying with them. Go read that thread with an open mind and heart and I guarantee you'll discover some things that will help to make you happier in the long term.
posted by zug at 10:10 AM on August 5, 2015 [9 favorites]
There are ugly cheaters and liars and fakes and self absorbed crazy people. There are gorgeous saints.
You just need to date people you like and treat them honestly. It's not about their beauty, it's about your perception. You should treat your partner as well as you can, all the time, while respecting your own needs.
Everybody seem to treat her differentlyy because of her looks
Everybody treats everyone differently. There is no book of equitable human interaction folks follow. Beauty is not universal and it's not a weapon, it's not cheating at life.
Try and focus on how you and your partner treat each other. Don't judge someone based on your perception of how others treat them.
posted by French Fry at 10:57 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
You just need to date people you like and treat them honestly. It's not about their beauty, it's about your perception. You should treat your partner as well as you can, all the time, while respecting your own needs.
Everybody seem to treat her differentlyy because of her looks
Everybody treats everyone differently. There is no book of equitable human interaction folks follow. Beauty is not universal and it's not a weapon, it's not cheating at life.
Try and focus on how you and your partner treat each other. Don't judge someone based on your perception of how others treat them.
posted by French Fry at 10:57 AM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
A loving relationship takes 15 -20 hours per week of positive, constructive intimate interaction to establish and maintain. I will second that it might be helpful to read the thread on emotional labor.
I am 50, so not as pretty as I once was. But my looks do attract a lot of attention and, yes, that means I do not have to put up with shit from men if I do not want to. I have had men describe me as addictive. I don't think that is about my looks. It is about the emotional labor I bring to the table, which most men expect as their due and don't really give a woman credit for. They are often oblivious to how hard she works at making him feel good.
Yes, a beautiful woman is better positioned to insist men treat her like a human being. What sucks is that it has to be done to begin with. Men should treat women like human beings because they are human beings, not because they have some extra desirable trait that helps empower them to bitchily refuse to put up with shit.
If you want a better relationship, you need to grow as a human being, up your game and bring more social and emotional savvy to the table. The thread linked above is a good place to start your education.
Best of luck.
posted by Michele in California at 10:57 AM on August 5, 2015 [8 favorites]
I am 50, so not as pretty as I once was. But my looks do attract a lot of attention and, yes, that means I do not have to put up with shit from men if I do not want to. I have had men describe me as addictive. I don't think that is about my looks. It is about the emotional labor I bring to the table, which most men expect as their due and don't really give a woman credit for. They are often oblivious to how hard she works at making him feel good.
Yes, a beautiful woman is better positioned to insist men treat her like a human being. What sucks is that it has to be done to begin with. Men should treat women like human beings because they are human beings, not because they have some extra desirable trait that helps empower them to bitchily refuse to put up with shit.
If you want a better relationship, you need to grow as a human being, up your game and bring more social and emotional savvy to the table. The thread linked above is a good place to start your education.
Best of luck.
posted by Michele in California at 10:57 AM on August 5, 2015 [8 favorites]
Saying Just don't do that is not very helpful. Find new attributes to focus on: sense of humor, kindness, intelligence are some good attributes to seek out. Listen. People will often reveal their true natures, and if you pay attention, you'll hear it. If someone is kind to people when they don't have to be - waiters, gas station attendant, salesclerks, that's a sign.
Most people can learn to present as more conventionally attractive through weight management, clothes, hair, makeup. If someone doesn't know how to be kind, that's harder to learn.
posted by theora55 at 1:32 PM on August 5, 2015
Most people can learn to present as more conventionally attractive through weight management, clothes, hair, makeup. If someone doesn't know how to be kind, that's harder to learn.
posted by theora55 at 1:32 PM on August 5, 2015
Look buddy, your Ask history about this woman and your relationship is up on the Green for all to see, so stop lying to us and trying to get our sympathy and validation now that the relationship has tanked. You sure as shit did not treat this woman like a princess when you were with her. Your relationship was in fact characterized by emotional abuse and control, all coming from you. I remember; everyone reading your threads remembers; its all still archived on the Green. You don't need to learn how to deal with putting too much emphasis on women's beauty in relationships. You need to learn how to be honest with yourself and with others, and start taking responsibility for your actions and behavior.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 1:45 PM on August 5, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 1:45 PM on August 5, 2015 [18 favorites]
Here's something to think about that you might find useful in breaking the faulty logic you've got going on about beauty equaling worth.
Two friends of mine are male porn stars who're fairly famous. You've probably heard of them and almost certainly have seen them. These guys deal with extremely conventionally-beautiful women, day in, day out, and have done for years. And you know what? They're perhaps the best at treating women like people, of all the men I know. Both of them have said that they realized that when every woman you work with is gorgeous and stunning and could be a model, you stop putting them on pedestals, because these women are no longer special just because of their looks. These women are just like all the other women outside the industry: some are nice, and some are jerks; some have the personalities of limp dishrags, and some are charming.
There's a lesson here for you, if you choose to learn it.
posted by culfinglin at 1:52 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Two friends of mine are male porn stars who're fairly famous. You've probably heard of them and almost certainly have seen them. These guys deal with extremely conventionally-beautiful women, day in, day out, and have done for years. And you know what? They're perhaps the best at treating women like people, of all the men I know. Both of them have said that they realized that when every woman you work with is gorgeous and stunning and could be a model, you stop putting them on pedestals, because these women are no longer special just because of their looks. These women are just like all the other women outside the industry: some are nice, and some are jerks; some have the personalities of limp dishrags, and some are charming.
There's a lesson here for you, if you choose to learn it.
posted by culfinglin at 1:52 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have never read a set of questions from someone so desperately in need of extensive longterm therapy in my life. To be honest, I am still a little ragey after reading your "This means I want to have my first child within the next 2 years." comment in your last question, because it just amplifies what you're showing us here.
* you don't treat women as people
* you have a very bizarre concept of how women are "supposed" to relate to you
* it's all about you you you (YOU want to have YOUR child in the next 2 years? ok, get on that, science, because that's not even how the biology works let alone the emotional, social and intellectual activity around having children)
"I demanded equality in our relationship" -- what does that even MEAN? It doesn't sound as if you are very good at treating women equally yourself. You're annoyed that they won't do what you want or look how you want or think how you want them to think. What exactly did you demand from your ex? (Note: "equality" is not likely the correct answer. Think again. Think harder. Ok, now answer the question honestly).
You are not "addicted to her beauty." Jesus, that is an obnoxious turn of phrase. It is normal to be depressed over a breakup, even one that looked as if it was coming from a block away, judging by your Ask questions. Depressed to the point of needing medication over a bad breakup? Your doctor is not very good if he or she is not also recommending you get into therapy alongside the medication.
The pills won't do all the work you need done for you.
Why? You don't seem like a very nice person, and there aren't pills for that. You remind my of my husband's high school friends who refused to do anything for themselves and then thought beautiful, blonde, Republican Stepford Wives should fall into their laps, assigned by the Great Girlfriend Fairy, because they were men who were worthy of such things, despite lacking the ability to serve as functional adults in society. Judging by your question about manly-man construction company names, I don't think your friends are in a position to guide you towards greater understanding of twenty-first century gender relations either.
Therapy, now. Work on you, not on them.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 2:29 PM on August 5, 2015 [12 favorites]
* you don't treat women as people
* you have a very bizarre concept of how women are "supposed" to relate to you
* it's all about you you you (YOU want to have YOUR child in the next 2 years? ok, get on that, science, because that's not even how the biology works let alone the emotional, social and intellectual activity around having children)
"I demanded equality in our relationship" -- what does that even MEAN? It doesn't sound as if you are very good at treating women equally yourself. You're annoyed that they won't do what you want or look how you want or think how you want them to think. What exactly did you demand from your ex? (Note: "equality" is not likely the correct answer. Think again. Think harder. Ok, now answer the question honestly).
You are not "addicted to her beauty." Jesus, that is an obnoxious turn of phrase. It is normal to be depressed over a breakup, even one that looked as if it was coming from a block away, judging by your Ask questions. Depressed to the point of needing medication over a bad breakup? Your doctor is not very good if he or she is not also recommending you get into therapy alongside the medication.
The pills won't do all the work you need done for you.
Why? You don't seem like a very nice person, and there aren't pills for that. You remind my of my husband's high school friends who refused to do anything for themselves and then thought beautiful, blonde, Republican Stepford Wives should fall into their laps, assigned by the Great Girlfriend Fairy, because they were men who were worthy of such things, despite lacking the ability to serve as functional adults in society. Judging by your question about manly-man construction company names, I don't think your friends are in a position to guide you towards greater understanding of twenty-first century gender relations either.
Therapy, now. Work on you, not on them.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 2:29 PM on August 5, 2015 [12 favorites]
Really attractive people find you more attractive if you don't emphasize their looks. So focus less on those and more on the other parts of them.
posted by Ironmouth at 2:34 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ironmouth at 2:34 PM on August 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
It was not an equal relationship and she expected to be treated like a princes. In the beginning I was treating her like that and had no problem. However once the honeymoon phase passed I demanded equality in our relationship and she was not willing to make any compromise.
If you can't treat someone with kindness most days of the week, sun up to sun down, for years at a time, then you aren't ready for a relationship.
posted by Gray Skies at 7:07 AM on August 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
If you can't treat someone with kindness most days of the week, sun up to sun down, for years at a time, then you aren't ready for a relationship.
posted by Gray Skies at 7:07 AM on August 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
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I had another very good-looking boyfriend later, and while he was not without his problems, he was a good man. Respectful, kind, understanding... And yet he still looked like a movie star. I was once walking down the street with him and someone started yelling "BRADLEY COOPER!" at him. He was so embarrassed. He didn't like when people talked about his looks, and confessed to me once that he felt really bad that he had probably gotten some unfair advantages in life because of his face.
It's not the looks that make the person good or bad. But like you, after dating that first guy, boy oh boy was I actively afraid of dating a handsome guy again. And when I met the next man, I was intimidated and frankly a bit put-off by his looks, because my prior experience indicated that good looking men can be real assholes.
Everyone has something to teach us. My first good looking boyfriend taught me that I needed to learn to evaluate the people I dated with a much closer eye before I threw myself in whole hog. I now have a list of qualities that matter to me in a long-term partner. They are positive things that I look for in my potential dates. These are things that I actively suss out during the dating phase, like, "likes animals," "can manage his finances," and "always treats me with respect." I can thank that first boyfriend for teaching me that I needed to be careful before I got into a relationship with another person; that looks and attraction are not everything.
The second guy taught me that good looking people are not always jerks. It is not weakness to be attracted to people who are attractive. This is human. Taking time when you are getting to know someone is the number one thing that can help you separate out the good-looking jerks from the good-looking gems. Real attraction is not about the shell, the sack of meat that you inhabit - it is about what is inside. So while you date, work on getting to know the person as a person. It's important to be physically attracted to someone that you are dating, but that is only a necessary thing and is not sufficient. By that I mean, it is not the only thing that should factor into attraction. Figuring out what you want in a potential partner is the first step towards understanding what kind of qualities you are attracted to beyond physical beauty. Going slow and getting to know someone and checking in with your brain to see how they makes you feel and what kind of person they are as you are getting to know them will help.
Best of luck to you.
posted by sockermom at 2:20 AM on August 5, 2015 [50 favorites]