Wine not?
December 3, 2005 9:08 AM Subscribe
A friend of mine has recently gotten really into wines. I think the whole thing is pretentious, silly, and barely covers the fact that he has become sort of a lush.
HOWEVER, if this kind of thing actually impresses women, I would say that it's worthwhile. So here's my question - does it?
Not in my experience. But I suppose someone else could like it -- I just don't see how.
posted by booksandlibretti at 9:16 AM on December 3, 2005
posted by booksandlibretti at 9:16 AM on December 3, 2005
afroblanca... and no offense meant to anyone participating in this thread... but generally, these types of questions never seem to attract the example you're looking for. jodic was close, but I doubt anyone will show up and say, "yea, wine-guys really impress me". It just doesn't happen for whatever reason. You'll get 10 to 1 (if you're lucky) of women saying, "nope, wine-guys don't impress me at all". But like the others said, there's probably someone out there that digs it, likely another wine-lover.
posted by Necker at 9:28 AM on December 3, 2005
posted by Necker at 9:28 AM on December 3, 2005
I think the whole thing is pretentious, silly
Being a wine snob is stupid. Making a big deal about how you've got a bottle of Opus at home and how you won't touch any bottle of wine that comes from a grocery store...that's just dumb.
However, if you genuinely like wine, and know well enough to stay away from zinfandel, that's something I can appreciate. If you're a lush it's better to swill a little vino than chug Jim Beam.
But if you're thinking of buying Wine For Dummies to impress the ladies, just forget it. Please. Doing anything just to pick up chicks (buying a puppy, signing up for tango lessons, taking women's studies classes and acting like a moron), is just lame.
posted by SassHat at 9:29 AM on December 3, 2005
Being a wine snob is stupid. Making a big deal about how you've got a bottle of Opus at home and how you won't touch any bottle of wine that comes from a grocery store...that's just dumb.
However, if you genuinely like wine, and know well enough to stay away from zinfandel, that's something I can appreciate. If you're a lush it's better to swill a little vino than chug Jim Beam.
But if you're thinking of buying Wine For Dummies to impress the ladies, just forget it. Please. Doing anything just to pick up chicks (buying a puppy, signing up for tango lessons, taking women's studies classes and acting like a moron), is just lame.
posted by SassHat at 9:29 AM on December 3, 2005
It does not impress me, but I'm not much of a wine drinker. I know that for some women, guys must really have some degree of overall culinary couth which includes being able to cook and serve a good meal. Choosing the right wine(s) to go with that meal is part of knowing about gustatory delights and is a crucial characteristic. Beyond that, the wine tasting, vineyard touring, Sideways watching crowd cares about that sort of thing in an "it's hawt!" way, and otherwise it seems to fall out along class lines, the higher your class status, the mor important it is in your social circles to really "get" wine.
posted by jessamyn at 9:29 AM on December 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by jessamyn at 9:29 AM on December 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: But if you're thinking of buying Wine For Dummies to impress the ladies, just forget it.
Not really. Just trying to gauge my friend's silliniess.
Although there are definitely some things that a guy can do to boost his chances with the opposite sex, these things usually fall along the lines of "self-improvement," and not "choosing the right hobbies."
posted by afroblanca at 9:35 AM on December 3, 2005
Not really. Just trying to gauge my friend's silliniess.
Although there are definitely some things that a guy can do to boost his chances with the opposite sex, these things usually fall along the lines of "self-improvement," and not "choosing the right hobbies."
posted by afroblanca at 9:35 AM on December 3, 2005
It does not impress me, but I'm not much of a wine drinker.
If she doesn't know enough to "get it," and you don't share an opinion, its not much good for impressing the girl, other than freefloating pretension.
First date with a french girl, I brought her a bottle of Sancerre, from the Loire valley, like her family. She called her mother to tell her she had finally met a proper gentleman.
Nothing is classier than discretely opening a truly excellent wine without touting it or flashing the label, and offering it to someone who appreciates what it is, and realizes you respect her enough to know she will, without any build up.
posted by StickyCarpet at 9:39 AM on December 3, 2005
If she doesn't know enough to "get it," and you don't share an opinion, its not much good for impressing the girl, other than freefloating pretension.
First date with a french girl, I brought her a bottle of Sancerre, from the Loire valley, like her family. She called her mother to tell her she had finally met a proper gentleman.
Nothing is classier than discretely opening a truly excellent wine without touting it or flashing the label, and offering it to someone who appreciates what it is, and realizes you respect her enough to know she will, without any build up.
posted by StickyCarpet at 9:39 AM on December 3, 2005
I think being a wine snob is pretentious, but at the same time I totally love wine. As far as whether or not it gets the girls, it depends on what you mean- very few girls will be so insanely impressed by your friend's bottle of Jordan that they'll want to shake him up halfway through it; however, if your friend can cook and knows enough about wine to select an appropriately complimentary bottle with his meal, it certainly enhances the experience and this makes it more pleasurable for both parties.
I guess the point is that when it comes to wine, the snobs think labels are important, whereas most wine drinkers know that what's important is pairing and experience. You can get a great experience out of a 10 dollar bottle of wine, just like you can get a bad experience out of a 300 dollar bottle of wine. It's not the substance but how you use it.
know well enough to stay away from zinfandel
I hope you'd like to qualify this as white zinfandel- red zinfandel can be totally amazing wine. Check out the Bogle Zin and the Joel Gott Zin (especially the Joel Gott). Both are phenomenal wines. Beringer, though, that's box wine in a bottle.
posted by baphomet at 9:53 AM on December 3, 2005
I guess the point is that when it comes to wine, the snobs think labels are important, whereas most wine drinkers know that what's important is pairing and experience. You can get a great experience out of a 10 dollar bottle of wine, just like you can get a bad experience out of a 300 dollar bottle of wine. It's not the substance but how you use it.
know well enough to stay away from zinfandel
I hope you'd like to qualify this as white zinfandel- red zinfandel can be totally amazing wine. Check out the Bogle Zin and the Joel Gott Zin (especially the Joel Gott). Both are phenomenal wines. Beringer, though, that's box wine in a bottle.
posted by baphomet at 9:53 AM on December 3, 2005
If it's a sincere interest and he's building sound knowledge about it while keeping his feet on the ground, then great. If it's insincere -- covering up the lushiness, adopting the behavior because it seems cool or upper-crusty -- then I can easily tell, and I detest it.
Sadly, wine is one of those areas that people become fascinated with because they believe it will lend them an air of sophisticiation. However, that only works for the truly sophisticated. [Kind of what Sancerre is saying above]. Same goes for cigars, scotch, travel, luxury cars, jazz, etc. I respect men who steer by their own lights and aren't motivated by vain bourgeois striving. I don't respect them when they're aping others without a real understanding of the subject.
posted by Miko at 9:55 AM on December 3, 2005
Sadly, wine is one of those areas that people become fascinated with because they believe it will lend them an air of sophisticiation. However, that only works for the truly sophisticated. [Kind of what Sancerre is saying above]. Same goes for cigars, scotch, travel, luxury cars, jazz, etc. I respect men who steer by their own lights and aren't motivated by vain bourgeois striving. I don't respect them when they're aping others without a real understanding of the subject.
posted by Miko at 9:55 AM on December 3, 2005
Sancerre, WTF? I meant StickyCarpet, but clearly I got distracted....
posted by Miko at 9:56 AM on December 3, 2005
posted by Miko at 9:56 AM on December 3, 2005
I like a guy who knows his way around wines, liquor, food, art, theatre and other similar pursuits. I'm impressed if the guy has passable knowledge of these. However, I am not further impressed by experts. So I expect you to know how to order wine with dinner and I might be amused by the occasional chat with the waiter or even sommelier, but full snobbery seems stupid to me.
posted by acoutu at 10:03 AM on December 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by acoutu at 10:03 AM on December 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
I live in Europe. When you live in a country that grows wine you rarely find wine snobs. Basically, you drink what is good and local, and you try out other wiines when available or when traveling. The whole vocabulary of wine rhetoric derives from the French, who are enthusiasts but not necessarily snobs. As soon as you go to a place that has to import wine, the price goes up and the snobbery begins.
posted by zaelic at 10:04 AM on December 3, 2005
posted by zaelic at 10:04 AM on December 3, 2005
Sancerre ... clearly I got distracted....
Mmmmm. The tang of sour apples, the smell of freshly cut grass, the almost salty seasoning of flinty slate...
What's not to be distracted about?
posted by StickyCarpet at 10:07 AM on December 3, 2005
Mmmmm. The tang of sour apples, the smell of freshly cut grass, the almost salty seasoning of flinty slate...
What's not to be distracted about?
posted by StickyCarpet at 10:07 AM on December 3, 2005
A friend of mine has recently gotten really into trying to impress women. I think the whole thing is pretentious, silly, and barely covers the fact that he has become sort of a whore. HOWEVER, if this kind of thing actually involves good food and wine, I would say that it's worthwhile.
posted by xoe26 at 10:07 AM on December 3, 2005 [2 favorites]
posted by xoe26 at 10:07 AM on December 3, 2005 [2 favorites]
Yes, it does -- not so much because it's wine, but because you're passionate about something and you've gone to the trouble to become educated about it. Hobbies make people more interesting.
posted by cribcage at 10:07 AM on December 3, 2005
posted by cribcage at 10:07 AM on December 3, 2005
He's not being silly, just opportunistic and maybe a little shallow. Given that wine bars are about the easiest place to meet women, and the women you meet there are going to be drinking wine at the time, it's hard to argue the tactical value of being able to make intelligent conversation about the stuff in your glass. And, in that environment, knowing enough about wine to order with authority (or at least ask informed questions) will project more confidence than deferring to the bartender or wine manager.
posted by nicwolff at 10:10 AM on December 3, 2005
posted by nicwolff at 10:10 AM on December 3, 2005
americans fuck everything up. they take a decent drink like coffee and turn it into something you need a "burr grinder" for (to get the right "crema", of course). now they're doing the same to tea. tea. like you drank all your life. they take cooking and obsess over things like knives (for christ's sake - we've had people posting here about going to "knife handling classes" and discussing which squillion dollar waste has the best "balance"). now it seems they're doing the same thing to wine. it's not about enjoying something, but buying the right fucking glasses.
the only thing i can conclude is that american women are, indeed, fascinated by anyone with a shallow obsession for material goods and that getting into "the wine thing" will guarantee you sex with loud, overweight bores. probably in an suv. go for it.
and don't forget - afterwards you can wipe your dick on the best towels money can buy.
posted by andrew cooke at 10:14 AM on December 3, 2005 [2 favorites]
the only thing i can conclude is that american women are, indeed, fascinated by anyone with a shallow obsession for material goods and that getting into "the wine thing" will guarantee you sex with loud, overweight bores. probably in an suv. go for it.
and don't forget - afterwards you can wipe your dick on the best towels money can buy.
posted by andrew cooke at 10:14 AM on December 3, 2005 [2 favorites]
oh, an extra hint, for free - if i were you, i'd keep track of the wines you drink in a moleskine.
posted by andrew cooke at 10:15 AM on December 3, 2005 [2 favorites]
posted by andrew cooke at 10:15 AM on December 3, 2005 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: xoe26 - hahahahahah. good answer.
unfortunately, very few men will be offended when you call them whores
posted by afroblanca at 10:17 AM on December 3, 2005
unfortunately, very few men will be offended when you call them whores
posted by afroblanca at 10:17 AM on December 3, 2005
Response by poster: (well, fewer then should be, I should say)
posted by afroblanca at 10:19 AM on December 3, 2005
posted by afroblanca at 10:19 AM on December 3, 2005
Speaking as a guy, I'd speculate that in a dinner date situation, the fellow who handles the winelist with aplomb may be percieved slightly better than the fellow who gets lost and falls back to the pitcher of Coors Lite. It's not so much about the wine as it is about staying Alpha Male in a situation which is traditionally intimidating and where practice is infrequent.
posted by Triode at 10:24 AM on December 3, 2005
posted by Triode at 10:24 AM on December 3, 2005
I love being around people who can talk articulately about their enthusiasms, whatever they are, and are conversationally graceful enough to avoid pedantry. (The guy in Sideways seemed genuine enough, but he was still a bore.)
I like wine and I wish I knew more about it, so I appreciate people who do. However, bogus afficionados are just plain pitiable. So are people using their knowledge to try to impress, no matter how much they actually do know.
posted by tangerine at 10:26 AM on December 3, 2005
I like wine and I wish I knew more about it, so I appreciate people who do. However, bogus afficionados are just plain pitiable. So are people using their knowledge to try to impress, no matter how much they actually do know.
posted by tangerine at 10:26 AM on December 3, 2005
Let's not forget this is a two way street. If you say to your date: "wow, doesn't this wine just taste exceptionally green?", and she says "I have no idea what you're talking about," then most likely that won't be the last experience you fail to enjoy together.
posted by StickyCarpet at 10:30 AM on December 3, 2005
posted by StickyCarpet at 10:30 AM on December 3, 2005
When you live in a country that grows wine you rarely find wine snobs
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Look, in my college years I took a long (10 months) -- and delicious -- sommelier class (I don't have the diploma because, frankly, I was too drunk to care, but I still have wine-stained notebooks full of interesting info). the general rule is, the more you actually know about wine the less you brag and break other people's balls about it. having said that, it doesn't really impress women, it simply helps you choose good wines. so, if you go out with a woman who actually knows a bit about wine already, she'll be happy. if she doesn't, she won't care. maybe she is the kind of person who is tempted to mix wine with seltzer (I'm not being judgemental, whatever rocks your boat, unless you want to tamper with _my_ wine, too), you just don't know. and if your plan is to get her drunk (morally despicable, but I don't want to digress) you don't need to know about wine, just check if the alcohol content is high enough.
posted by matteo at 11:02 AM on December 3, 2005
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Look, in my college years I took a long (10 months) -- and delicious -- sommelier class (I don't have the diploma because, frankly, I was too drunk to care, but I still have wine-stained notebooks full of interesting info). the general rule is, the more you actually know about wine the less you brag and break other people's balls about it. having said that, it doesn't really impress women, it simply helps you choose good wines. so, if you go out with a woman who actually knows a bit about wine already, she'll be happy. if she doesn't, she won't care. maybe she is the kind of person who is tempted to mix wine with seltzer (I'm not being judgemental, whatever rocks your boat, unless you want to tamper with _my_ wine, too), you just don't know. and if your plan is to get her drunk (morally despicable, but I don't want to digress) you don't need to know about wine, just check if the alcohol content is high enough.
posted by matteo at 11:02 AM on December 3, 2005
It depends on whether the woman likes wine, of course, or is interested to know more about it.
I went out on a date with a woman recently who knows a lot about wine and enjoys it (and not as a cover for being a lush). What knowledge I had about wine and the regions where my favorite stuff comes from made for good conversation that night. Not because guys who are wine snobs are sexy. Just because I knew enough to carry on a conversation about something she was interested in.
When you don't know shit about wine it all looks like pretentious snobbery. But there are a few things to know. And people have been appreciating good wines for centuries. I suppose some people think that anyone who's into art is some kind of poser ass. Maybe some people even crap on those who like good literature. I dunno. God I hope not.
This is not to say that knowing about wine impresses all women. Nothing impresses all women. Because not all women are the same. But I will tell you that a little knowledge about wine will probably impress more women than a little knowledge about beer. I have some of that as well, having learned to brew and toured the great beer sources of the world. But it didn't come up on that date :)
posted by scarabic at 11:04 AM on December 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
I went out on a date with a woman recently who knows a lot about wine and enjoys it (and not as a cover for being a lush). What knowledge I had about wine and the regions where my favorite stuff comes from made for good conversation that night. Not because guys who are wine snobs are sexy. Just because I knew enough to carry on a conversation about something she was interested in.
When you don't know shit about wine it all looks like pretentious snobbery. But there are a few things to know. And people have been appreciating good wines for centuries. I suppose some people think that anyone who's into art is some kind of poser ass. Maybe some people even crap on those who like good literature. I dunno. God I hope not.
This is not to say that knowing about wine impresses all women. Nothing impresses all women. Because not all women are the same. But I will tell you that a little knowledge about wine will probably impress more women than a little knowledge about beer. I have some of that as well, having learned to brew and toured the great beer sources of the world. But it didn't come up on that date :)
posted by scarabic at 11:04 AM on December 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
american women are, indeed, fascinated by anyone with a shallow obsession for material goods
Nah, it's just that Americans suffer from a 300+-year inferiority complex. It's what you get when you build a nation of immigrants escaping oppression in the old country.
posted by Miko at 11:32 AM on December 3, 2005
Nah, it's just that Americans suffer from a 300+-year inferiority complex. It's what you get when you build a nation of immigrants escaping oppression in the old country.
posted by Miko at 11:32 AM on December 3, 2005
andrew misses the point in one key sense: wine knowledge is not about high priced consumerism. Its just as much about knowing that one special bottle you found for $5.99, and is surprisingly good.
posted by StickyCarpet at 11:33 AM on December 3, 2005
posted by StickyCarpet at 11:33 AM on December 3, 2005
the more you actually know about wine the less you brag and break other people's balls about it.
Exactly (and it applies to more than just wine).
What's confusing me about this thread is that the question says "A friend of mine has recently gotten really into wines... if this kind of thing actually impresses women, I would say that it's worthwhile. So here's my question - does it?"—but doesn't actually say that the friend has gotten into wine to impress women. That's a fairly important distinction. If that's the reason, the friend isan idiot not directing his energies very usefully; if not, it's an odd question. Who's obsessing about women here, you or your friend?
I completely disagree about andrew's "answer"; it's typical, boring anti-American snobbery. "Oh yes, those vulgar Americans, they come along and ruin everything with their primitive enthusiasm and their money! We were perfectly happy drinking wine 'fortified' with cheap brandy and North African plonk labeled as Burgundy and sometimes full of poisonous chemicals, and 95% of which was barely drinkable unless you'd already had a snootful. Then these Yanks come along with their science and their chemicals and their UCD degrees and claim anybody can make good wine if they go about it right—disgusting! And then they turn out to be right, and 95% of currently available wine is at least drinkable and usually pretty good—but the really good stuff is priced out of reach of the ordinary drinker! I ask you, is that fair? Is that right? Why can't I guzzle my Chateau Latour while the workingman has his not-quite-poisonous gros rouge, and everybody's happy, or at least drunk? And these damned Americans go around talking about varietals and all that sort of thing, as if anybody actually cared! Why don't they just go back where they came from?"
Note: The above-caricatured attitudes should not be attributed to andrew cooke, who merely provided the spark to set fire to my latent resentment of this sort of thing. Americans can be annoying, but they've immeasurably improved the world of wine, and anyone who disagrees is exhibiting, well, sour grapes.
posted by languagehat at 12:08 PM on December 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
Exactly (and it applies to more than just wine).
What's confusing me about this thread is that the question says "A friend of mine has recently gotten really into wines... if this kind of thing actually impresses women, I would say that it's worthwhile. So here's my question - does it?"—but doesn't actually say that the friend has gotten into wine to impress women. That's a fairly important distinction. If that's the reason, the friend is
I completely disagree about andrew's "answer"; it's typical, boring anti-American snobbery. "Oh yes, those vulgar Americans, they come along and ruin everything with their primitive enthusiasm and their money! We were perfectly happy drinking wine 'fortified' with cheap brandy and North African plonk labeled as Burgundy and sometimes full of poisonous chemicals, and 95% of which was barely drinkable unless you'd already had a snootful. Then these Yanks come along with their science and their chemicals and their UCD degrees and claim anybody can make good wine if they go about it right—disgusting! And then they turn out to be right, and 95% of currently available wine is at least drinkable and usually pretty good—but the really good stuff is priced out of reach of the ordinary drinker! I ask you, is that fair? Is that right? Why can't I guzzle my Chateau Latour while the workingman has his not-quite-poisonous gros rouge, and everybody's happy, or at least drunk? And these damned Americans go around talking about varietals and all that sort of thing, as if anybody actually cared! Why don't they just go back where they came from?"
Note: The above-caricatured attitudes should not be attributed to andrew cooke, who merely provided the spark to set fire to my latent resentment of this sort of thing. Americans can be annoying, but they've immeasurably improved the world of wine, and anyone who disagrees is exhibiting, well, sour grapes.
posted by languagehat at 12:08 PM on December 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Who's obsessing about women here, you or your friend?
Well, to be honest, I have no idea why he really got into wines. Ostensibly, it's because he likes wine. However, I suspect that, at least in part, it may be to impress women.
I think his interest in wine is a little silly - in some ways, it seems like he is trying to put on airs. However, I'm more interested in the effects of his behavior then the causes. If his wine interest makes him more attractive to women, I would be a little less likely to make fun of him for it. Or, to put it differently, I can laugh at him all I want, but he'll be laughing all the way to the bedroom. Does this make sense?
Who's obsessing about women here, you or your friend?
I'd say that we're both at least a little obsessed with women. Or at least, as much as could be expected from two healty males in their late twenties.
posted by afroblanca at 12:17 PM on December 3, 2005
Well, to be honest, I have no idea why he really got into wines. Ostensibly, it's because he likes wine. However, I suspect that, at least in part, it may be to impress women.
I think his interest in wine is a little silly - in some ways, it seems like he is trying to put on airs. However, I'm more interested in the effects of his behavior then the causes. If his wine interest makes him more attractive to women, I would be a little less likely to make fun of him for it. Or, to put it differently, I can laugh at him all I want, but he'll be laughing all the way to the bedroom. Does this make sense?
Who's obsessing about women here, you or your friend?
I'd say that we're both at least a little obsessed with women. Or at least, as much as could be expected from two healty males in their late twenties.
posted by afroblanca at 12:17 PM on December 3, 2005
Then these Yanks come along with their science and their chemicals and their UCD degrees and claim anybody can make good wine if they go about it right—disgusting!
Last night I watched the documentary Mondovino One significant theme covered in the film is the "old world" versus "new world" debate; the "traditional" versus the "scientific" approach to vinification.
posted by ericb at 12:18 PM on December 3, 2005
Last night I watched the documentary Mondovino One significant theme covered in the film is the "old world" versus "new world" debate; the "traditional" versus the "scientific" approach to vinification.
posted by ericb at 12:18 PM on December 3, 2005
... the "old world" versus "new world" debate; the "traditional" versus the "scientific" approach to ... picking up women.
posted by StickyCarpet at 12:40 PM on December 3, 2005
posted by StickyCarpet at 12:40 PM on December 3, 2005
I agree with jodic. I like it when a guy is genuinely fascinated by something.
As for me, personally, I love single malt scotches, although I'm not really knowledgeable about the differences between them except in the most general sense.
posted by matildaben at 12:57 PM on December 3, 2005
As for me, personally, I love single malt scotches, although I'm not really knowledgeable about the differences between them except in the most general sense.
posted by matildaben at 12:57 PM on December 3, 2005
As a person who likes wine, I'm sort of irked by the implication that anyone who likes wine is a snob. And I find all this anti-snobbery snobbery back and forth kind of confusing. Why can't I just like good wine because I like the taste of it (note: "good" does not necessarily mean "expensive" in this case)? The wine world certainly has its share of snobs, but it also has a lot of enthusiastic people who have their own particular likes and dislikes.
Anyway, to sort of answer the question, I think your friend might attract more of two sorts of women: 1) those who also like wine 2) those who think wine means status and are going for status. I would hope he's not interested in the latter--I wouldn't be. But there are a lot of people who like good food and good wine, so if he can cultivate some knowledge and skills in those areas, so much the better. I cook good food for my girlfriend daily and would like to think I get at least a few brownie points for that.
posted by lackutrol at 1:04 PM on December 3, 2005
Anyway, to sort of answer the question, I think your friend might attract more of two sorts of women: 1) those who also like wine 2) those who think wine means status and are going for status. I would hope he's not interested in the latter--I wouldn't be. But there are a lot of people who like good food and good wine, so if he can cultivate some knowledge and skills in those areas, so much the better. I cook good food for my girlfriend daily and would like to think I get at least a few brownie points for that.
posted by lackutrol at 1:04 PM on December 3, 2005
And Andrew, have you been getting enough sleep lately? You seem kind of grumpy. Would you say the great improvement in British food over the last 20 years is as horrible as what these Americans do? If not, why not?
languagehat is exactly right, as usual. Cheers.
posted by lackutrol at 1:11 PM on December 3, 2005
languagehat is exactly right, as usual. Cheers.
posted by lackutrol at 1:11 PM on December 3, 2005
I sympathize a little with andrew's curmudgeonly rant, but ascribe what he describes to a more generous motive - American enthusiasm when discovering something new (regardless if it is just new to them or new to the world. the preponderance of (north) Americans grew up with terrible percolated Folgers or nabob dripped through diaper lining into a greasy carafe. When they discovered decent coffee, they took it to heart. Growing up with Boban tea bags steeped in an ice cold cup with some hottish water, who wouldn't be enthusiastic for the real thing? Half a lifetime of Rocket Red Table Wine, and you bet you would be enthusiastic for something decent (and my understanding is that it is the Australians who get the most credit for the "NEw World" wine innovations). Same pattern goes for beer, knives and yes, notebooks.
Initially, immigranst bring small tastes from the old world, then these get homogenized and watered down, then the real things are rediscovered and found to be so much better than the baseline, a baseline which, for many things in north America, is pretty crappy.
Having said all that, ostentatious connoisseurship is snotty and snobby and all too tied up with conspicuous consumption. But I understand the enthusiasm to have good things if you have always had cream of shit.
posted by Rumple at 1:48 PM on December 3, 2005
Initially, immigranst bring small tastes from the old world, then these get homogenized and watered down, then the real things are rediscovered and found to be so much better than the baseline, a baseline which, for many things in north America, is pretty crappy.
Having said all that, ostentatious connoisseurship is snotty and snobby and all too tied up with conspicuous consumption. But I understand the enthusiasm to have good things if you have always had cream of shit.
posted by Rumple at 1:48 PM on December 3, 2005
Way to generalize in a completely offensive way, andrew cooke. Sure, plenty of Americans are snobs (take your pick as to the type of snobs, from tea to wine to cars and cigars), but it's incorrect to make this an American thing, or to indicate that it is so viral that every American acts this way. This type of "snobbery" exists in every developed country. Furthermore, I believe that the it's more accurate to say that people are often very enthusiastic when introduced to something new (as Rumple stated above) which appeals to them. With time, it will either settle into a more quiet, rich appreciation, or the person will move on to the next thing. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with that (and I'm perplexed as to why peoples' personalities and personal choices seem to disgust you so much).
This fairly quiet, overweight (but not boorish), fuel efficient car driving American woman really enjoys good coffee (but has never heard of a "burr grinder"), inherited a set of Wüsthof knives and a love of tea from her grandmother (and delights when presented with something new to try), comes from a big, culturally varied family with a long history of an appreciation of good food and wine, and would never consider having sex in an SUV.
I am patently unfascinated by anyone with a shallow obsession for anything, but I don't begrudge them the right to their fascination. On the other hand, real passion is easy to discern, and I am definitely drawn to that, regardless of what you're into.
posted by mewithoutyou at 2:32 PM on December 3, 2005
This fairly quiet, overweight (but not boorish), fuel efficient car driving American woman really enjoys good coffee (but has never heard of a "burr grinder"), inherited a set of Wüsthof knives and a love of tea from her grandmother (and delights when presented with something new to try), comes from a big, culturally varied family with a long history of an appreciation of good food and wine, and would never consider having sex in an SUV.
I am patently unfascinated by anyone with a shallow obsession for anything, but I don't begrudge them the right to their fascination. On the other hand, real passion is easy to discern, and I am definitely drawn to that, regardless of what you're into.
posted by mewithoutyou at 2:32 PM on December 3, 2005
Well, to be honest, I have no idea why he really got into wines. Ostensibly, it's because he likes wine.
Then I submit that it probably is because he likes wine. I further submit that he's irrelevant to your question, which could more economically have been posed as: "Does wine connoisseurship attract women?" or "Are women attracted to men who know a lot about wine?"
For what it's worth, I got interested in knowing more about wine because I had some good stuff instead of the $2 Bulgarian stuff I'd been subsisting on as an ill-paid proofreader, and although I didn't attempt to impress women with my extensive knowledge of Burgundy producers and terroir, they did seem to enjoy the good wine I poured them.
posted by languagehat at 2:57 PM on December 3, 2005
Then I submit that it probably is because he likes wine. I further submit that he's irrelevant to your question, which could more economically have been posed as: "Does wine connoisseurship attract women?" or "Are women attracted to men who know a lot about wine?"
For what it's worth, I got interested in knowing more about wine because I had some good stuff instead of the $2 Bulgarian stuff I'd been subsisting on as an ill-paid proofreader, and although I didn't attempt to impress women with my extensive knowledge of Burgundy producers and terroir, they did seem to enjoy the good wine I poured them.
posted by languagehat at 2:57 PM on December 3, 2005
I hope you'd like to qualify this as white zinfandel
I'm talking about the pink garbage they serve at baby showers.
I took a wine class in college and did get to try some awesome red zin.
posted by SassHat at 3:25 PM on December 3, 2005
I'm talking about the pink garbage they serve at baby showers.
I took a wine class in college and did get to try some awesome red zin.
posted by SassHat at 3:25 PM on December 3, 2005
the only thing i can conclude is that american women are, indeed, fascinated by anyone with a shallow obsession for material goods and that getting into "the wine thing" will guarantee you sex with loud, overweight bores. probably in an suv. go for it.
Not so much.
I can't speak for the rest of the "American Women" out there (I like to avoid sweeping generalities where possible), but I know that I like to sit and enjoy a decent glass of wine.
I see plenty of people doing the "wine thing" in South Florida, but that's hardly the common experience. Most of the people I know go to Publix, buy a reasonably priced bottle of something tasty, and enjoy. And if they haven't done the dishes in a while, maybe they're enjoying it out of a jelly jar glass.
posted by SassHat at 3:31 PM on December 3, 2005
Not so much.
I can't speak for the rest of the "American Women" out there (I like to avoid sweeping generalities where possible), but I know that I like to sit and enjoy a decent glass of wine.
I see plenty of people doing the "wine thing" in South Florida, but that's hardly the common experience. Most of the people I know go to Publix, buy a reasonably priced bottle of something tasty, and enjoy. And if they haven't done the dishes in a while, maybe they're enjoying it out of a jelly jar glass.
posted by SassHat at 3:31 PM on December 3, 2005
I would never suggest wine/food fandom as a way to pick up girls. I say that as somebody who is quite passionate about good food and drink.
It's easy to take somebody out to share your favorite mexican or brazilian restaurant. It's also real simple to take a date out to drink your best-loved caipirahnas, margaritas or beer.
Unfortunately, you hit a lot of preconceived ideas when you want to share some fine wine, champagne or the tasting menu at a good french restaurant.
posted by I Love Tacos at 3:32 PM on December 3, 2005
It's easy to take somebody out to share your favorite mexican or brazilian restaurant. It's also real simple to take a date out to drink your best-loved caipirahnas, margaritas or beer.
Unfortunately, you hit a lot of preconceived ideas when you want to share some fine wine, champagne or the tasting menu at a good french restaurant.
posted by I Love Tacos at 3:32 PM on December 3, 2005
Wine connisseurship will attract more women than its absence. It's like an ostentatious car, certain women will be turned off by it, many more women will claim to be turned off by it. Still, on the whole, it will improve one's lot with the opposite sex. Even if the girl knows nothing of wine it will help if its not belabored. Just don't use knowledge of something as an excuse to talk too much. The only question is if the women one attracts by such superficial means are worth the effort. Probably.
posted by I Foody at 3:36 PM on December 3, 2005
posted by I Foody at 3:36 PM on December 3, 2005
Er... if it's a fad then being in it will be fashionable and attractive, obviously. It'll give you half an hour before the topic goes stale.
I don't paricularly like wine, but conversations about it are more palatable since watching John Cleese's Wine for the Confused.
posted by holloway at 3:40 PM on December 3, 2005
I don't paricularly like wine, but conversations about it are more palatable since watching John Cleese's Wine for the Confused.
posted by holloway at 3:40 PM on December 3, 2005
Wow, this reminds me of the old days when a part of ones civilized education was to learn enough about the various arts as to not appear to be an uncivilized bumpkin in social situations. This is good stuff to know, especially when wooing a girl/or guy. (Wine tasting as first date? Hell yea!)
Years ago, when I got set up on a date with my, now, wife, I was a dirty biker from San Diego's East County. We didn't seem to have much in common. She was a beautiful sophisticated educator from San Fran and I was a dirty biker who drank Papbst Blue Ribbon. Let's just say that she was SHOCKED when she poured me a glass of ZD Chardonnay and I knew exactly what it was and where it came from. I loved it too.
As far as Americans sucking, much of that is true. Fortunately for me, I spent my high school years in Europe. It was the greatest and most fun education I could ever dream of. A high point; helping a guy fix his vespa and getting a case of wine his father made in return. I was 15! I still love Europe!
posted by snsranch at 3:46 PM on December 3, 2005
Years ago, when I got set up on a date with my, now, wife, I was a dirty biker from San Diego's East County. We didn't seem to have much in common. She was a beautiful sophisticated educator from San Fran and I was a dirty biker who drank Papbst Blue Ribbon. Let's just say that she was SHOCKED when she poured me a glass of ZD Chardonnay and I knew exactly what it was and where it came from. I loved it too.
As far as Americans sucking, much of that is true. Fortunately for me, I spent my high school years in Europe. It was the greatest and most fun education I could ever dream of. A high point; helping a guy fix his vespa and getting a case of wine his father made in return. I was 15! I still love Europe!
posted by snsranch at 3:46 PM on December 3, 2005
I personally like when my date knows a little about wine, because I know nothing about wine (or alcohol, really). But picking up any hobby just to impress girls is kind of silly, and is probably fairly transparent, so I wouldn't become a sommelier just for the ladies, afroblanca.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:59 PM on December 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:59 PM on December 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
Best answer: being really good at something is impressive to a woman, especially if the woman is into that something too. but being snobby about it isn't impressive, at least for me and the women i know.
posted by smartypanties at 4:10 PM on December 3, 2005
posted by smartypanties at 4:10 PM on December 3, 2005
Rum, rum rum! When you find a woman that can stand the smell of you on a Jamaican white rum bender, you can be sure she is a keeper!
I suggest watching "Sideways" early in the evening, and then watching "Leaving Las Vaegas" a bit later if you need to make a decision on the social aspects.
I agree with Languagehat, but I really enjoyed andrew cooke's rant. And I was born in the US. Now I am off to open another bottle of 2005 Villanyi Kekoporto ... wheee!
posted by zaelic at 4:23 PM on December 3, 2005
I suggest watching "Sideways" early in the evening, and then watching "Leaving Las Vaegas" a bit later if you need to make a decision on the social aspects.
I agree with Languagehat, but I really enjoyed andrew cooke's rant. And I was born in the US. Now I am off to open another bottle of 2005 Villanyi Kekoporto ... wheee!
posted by zaelic at 4:23 PM on December 3, 2005
It takes a lifetime to have a truly impressive knowledge of wine. Anyone who fancies himself to have an impressive knowledge of wine is automatically unimpressive.
But a good general knowledge of wine is a good social skill, I think. If you can pick out a nice bottle without going on and on about it, that looks good to the people you're with. Even just knowing your favorite (more specific than red/white) is enough, I think. If you're on a date and just say "I love Albariño...have you tried it?" ...that's a lot better than talking at length about all you've learned about soil and grapes and weather and barrels.
posted by lampoil at 5:05 PM on December 3, 2005
But a good general knowledge of wine is a good social skill, I think. If you can pick out a nice bottle without going on and on about it, that looks good to the people you're with. Even just knowing your favorite (more specific than red/white) is enough, I think. If you're on a date and just say "I love Albariño...have you tried it?" ...that's a lot better than talking at length about all you've learned about soil and grapes and weather and barrels.
posted by lampoil at 5:05 PM on December 3, 2005
americans fuck everything up. they take a decent drink like coffee and turn it into something you need a "burr grinder" for (to get the right "crema", of course).
<off topic>Well I don't know about "crema" or whatever that is, but there are fairly practical reasons for having a burr grinder - they grind the coffee evenly, whereas a blade grinder doesn't. For certain ways of making a coffee (such as a french press, which, by the way, isn't particularly american) this makes a difference on the final result (the extent to which there is an unpleasant silty layer in the bottom of the cup, for a french press). Sadly such grinders are rather expensive, though I think most coffee shops use large commercial burr grinders. Also, I rather doubt that burr grinders are either native to the US or are mainly used in the US. Italy would be my guess, though I don't know. I think points along the same lines probably apply to the rest of andrew cooke's complaints about american snobbery.</off topic>
posted by advil at 5:11 PM on December 3, 2005
<off topic>Well I don't know about "crema" or whatever that is, but there are fairly practical reasons for having a burr grinder - they grind the coffee evenly, whereas a blade grinder doesn't. For certain ways of making a coffee (such as a french press, which, by the way, isn't particularly american) this makes a difference on the final result (the extent to which there is an unpleasant silty layer in the bottom of the cup, for a french press). Sadly such grinders are rather expensive, though I think most coffee shops use large commercial burr grinders. Also, I rather doubt that burr grinders are either native to the US or are mainly used in the US. Italy would be my guess, though I don't know. I think points along the same lines probably apply to the rest of andrew cooke's complaints about american snobbery.</off topic>
posted by advil at 5:11 PM on December 3, 2005
Americans suffer from a 300+-year inferiority complex
Let me tell you, if there's one thing we don't have an inferiority complex about around in Northern California, it's wine.
Then these Yanks come along with their science and their chemicals and their UCD degrees and claim anybody can make good wine if they go about it right
That's right, mofo! :P Did I mention I'm a Davis grad, too?
It's true there's a lot of crazy-ass science going on at UCD to fuck with centuries-old practices. Vintners have always been good scientists, though. UCD just has some amazingly sharp tools for them to use. If you say bah! sharp tools! and insist on historical authenticity to the exclusion of other factors, then you will never enjoy CA wine.
This is entirely your loss, but thanks for doing your part to keep prices low ;D
posted by scarabic at 6:26 PM on December 3, 2005
Let me tell you, if there's one thing we don't have an inferiority complex about around in Northern California, it's wine.
Then these Yanks come along with their science and their chemicals and their UCD degrees and claim anybody can make good wine if they go about it right
That's right, mofo! :P Did I mention I'm a Davis grad, too?
It's true there's a lot of crazy-ass science going on at UCD to fuck with centuries-old practices. Vintners have always been good scientists, though. UCD just has some amazingly sharp tools for them to use. If you say bah! sharp tools! and insist on historical authenticity to the exclusion of other factors, then you will never enjoy CA wine.
This is entirely your loss, but thanks for doing your part to keep prices low ;D
posted by scarabic at 6:26 PM on December 3, 2005
Response by poster: I further submit that he's irrelevant to your question, which could more economically have been posed as: "Does wine connoisseurship attract women?" or "Are women attracted to men who know a lot about wine?"
Languagehat, I disagree. And since it's my question, I have every right to do so. If I were to pose it in a more "economic" fashion, I would ask, "Should I make fun of my friend for his pretentious-seeming hobby?"
After reviewing everybody's answers, my conclusion is ,"yes." Although wine is as good a hobby as any, being ostentatious and snobby about it is stupid and will not attract women. My friend has, at times, exhibited this tendency, which is probably what I was sensing in the first place.
But picking up any hobby just to impress girls is kind of silly, and is probably fairly transparent, so I wouldn't become a sommelier just for the ladies, afroblanca.
ThePinkSuperhero, please see my previous comment.
posted by afroblanca at 7:46 PM on December 3, 2005
Languagehat, I disagree. And since it's my question, I have every right to do so. If I were to pose it in a more "economic" fashion, I would ask, "Should I make fun of my friend for his pretentious-seeming hobby?"
After reviewing everybody's answers, my conclusion is ,"yes." Although wine is as good a hobby as any, being ostentatious and snobby about it is stupid and will not attract women. My friend has, at times, exhibited this tendency, which is probably what I was sensing in the first place.
But picking up any hobby just to impress girls is kind of silly, and is probably fairly transparent, so I wouldn't become a sommelier just for the ladies, afroblanca.
ThePinkSuperhero, please see my previous comment.
posted by afroblanca at 7:46 PM on December 3, 2005
Not a wine snob, here but, I love wine. I just tend to drink what the local places make. And I'm in VA. I have a winery about 3 miles from me that has won award for their wines.
posted by SuzySmith at 8:05 PM on December 3, 2005
posted by SuzySmith at 8:05 PM on December 3, 2005
Response by poster: And for the record, I'm really no more then a social drinker. I will probably never become an expert in wine simply because I don't drink enough of it. The only kind of alcohol that I've ever gotten "into" is scotch (I prefer the smoky varieties like Lagavulin and Laphroaig), although recently I've been drinking more vodka then anything else.
posted by afroblanca at 8:11 PM on December 3, 2005
posted by afroblanca at 8:11 PM on December 3, 2005
Haha, oh yea, I saw that afroblanca- I didn't think you would. It was more of a general comment. Revised, I might say, "One shouldn't become a sommelier just for the ladies".
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:23 PM on December 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:23 PM on December 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
There is a certain kind of woman who appreciates the enthusiasm of the autodidact or the aficionado, and she might be impressed. I knew a girl - a MeFite - who dated an oenologists's son; he was so enthusiastic and expansive on the topic of wines that those of us who met him over dinner suspected him of mania. Still, it was good fun to be around him, for short periods of time at least.
There's another, very different kind of woman who appreciates a man whose wealth and social class enables him to spend time and money on oenology, which is a leisure pursuit, because it marks him as being of a certain social class. She'll be impressed.
There's still another woman out there who might share the passion for good wine - the $5.95 girl who posted above is clearly one of them - and she'll be impressed, too, if he has any kind of palate. She'll also go to great lengths to distinguish herself from the social-climbing woman named above.
Before you put out your honey, afrobianca, you need to know your bees.
posted by ikkyu2 at 10:57 PM on December 3, 2005
There's another, very different kind of woman who appreciates a man whose wealth and social class enables him to spend time and money on oenology, which is a leisure pursuit, because it marks him as being of a certain social class. She'll be impressed.
There's still another woman out there who might share the passion for good wine - the $5.95 girl who posted above is clearly one of them - and she'll be impressed, too, if he has any kind of palate. She'll also go to great lengths to distinguish herself from the social-climbing woman named above.
Before you put out your honey, afrobianca, you need to know your bees.
posted by ikkyu2 at 10:57 PM on December 3, 2005
Response by poster: You go, Holden Caulfield! Wait... he was only 16! Hrm. I think you need to move on.
Unnecessarily harsh.
posted by afroblanca at 11:14 PM on December 3, 2005
Unnecessarily harsh.
posted by afroblanca at 11:14 PM on December 3, 2005
Response by poster: Thread scrolled off the page, best answer chosen. Thanks to all for participating.
posted by afroblanca at 10:59 AM on December 4, 2005
posted by afroblanca at 10:59 AM on December 4, 2005
Mod note: a few comments removed, take further arguments about whiny americans, andrew cooke's bad mood or afroblanca's friend's chances of getting laid to metatalk or email
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:25 AM on December 4, 2005
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:25 AM on December 4, 2005
Of course it'll help in impressing women. Women are easier to impress when they're drunk
posted by klangklangston at 2:39 PM on December 4, 2005
posted by klangklangston at 2:39 PM on December 4, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
but you can't fake that. because most women can smell that trying to impress poser bullshit a mile away.
posted by jodic at 9:15 AM on December 3, 2005 [1 favorite]