Will I ever be able to be trusted if I have been "the other man"?
July 23, 2015 8:10 PM   Subscribe

My girlfriend is having a difficult time trusting me after I revealed I had in the past canoodled with a girl who had a boyfriend.

I was single, and this was before I knew my girlfriend. The girl I was canoodling with got engaged, while the cheating continued. We made a mutual decision to end it before the marriage.

I am having trouble feeling the sense of shame and moral violation about this incident that my GF seems to need. (Note: I did not and would not cheat on her, nor have I cheated with girlfriends past.) I'm wondering about the further implications of the trustworthiness of someone who didn't break a personal contract, but definitely did break a social contract. Just curious if people have any further insights, especially whether it's fair for my GF her to assume this predictive of me cheating on her?

(Lots of eye-opening food for thought here, enough to make me honestly say I wouldn't do it again, which is a start.)
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (64 answers total) 6 users marked this as a favorite
 
First off, don't ever talk to your GF about your romantic past again. This way madness lies. It never does any good.

If she holds it over you, this isn't someone you want to be in a relationship anyway. She has absolutely nothing to forgive you for as you haven't wronged her. You did what you did and you learned from it. I can't predict if she will get over it, because that is an individual thing, but all you can do is remind her that you love her and that what you did showed you how not to be and it's something that won't be repeated.

If she doesn't get over it...move on and tell no one else.
posted by inturnaround at 8:13 PM on July 23, 2015 [11 favorites]


Just curious if people have any further insights, especially whether it's fair for my GF her to assume this predictive of me cheating on her?

Fair? Sure. Statistically, if you've ever done X, you're likelier to do X again. But that doesn't mean you will do X again. If she can't see that, let her go. You've hit a sore spot, and it will always gnaw at her if she doesn't let it go.
posted by Etrigan at 8:20 PM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


This is something that I, personally, would consider a dealbreaker in a guy, because it doesn't show the kind of integrity that I expect from a partner. Had you been an innocent party, who later found out the girl already had a boyfriend, and broke it either immediately or shortly after you found out, that would be a different story.

Truthfully, though, my first thought wouldn't be that you would cheat, but it would seriously bother me that you would condone, and possibly even rationalize cheating in some circumstances. And only after I'd muddled over that for a while would I start to wonder just how long, and what circumstances, it would take for you to justify cheating on me. Every relationship has those moments, if someone's personal ethics allows it.
posted by stormyteal at 8:35 PM on July 23, 2015 [73 favorites]


I'm wondering about the further implications of the trustworthiness of someone who didn't break a personal contract, but definitely did break a social contract.

Well-phrased, possibly the heart of the issue.

Social contracts like this exist as a kind of gentleman's agreement, so to speak. You observe them because you recognize it'd be kindof crummy to find yourself on the other side of the behavior you might otherwise be tempted to engage in. It's a golden rule situation: don't canoodle with someone's SO because you don't want someone canoodling with your SO. Because empathy.

If you're missing empathy for guy whose girl you were canoodling with, one could reasonably wonder if that empathy deficiency might even extend to thinking about how your SO would feel when you're confronted with an opportunity to cheat on your SO.

Of course, it's much more natural to have empathy for your SO than it is for the SO of an acquaintance who decides they want you. So that's a somewhat tenuous concern.

Still, maybe one worth turning over in your mind, not as a stick to beat yourself with, but a star to steer by.
posted by weston at 8:38 PM on July 23, 2015 [10 favorites]


Did you know at the time that the girl had a serious BF and that she was cheating on him with you? If no, if you did not know about the other guy, then you have nothing to feel guilty for, nor should your current GF hold it over you.

If you did know about her fiancé, if you were aware at the time that she was cheating on him with you, then yes, you did wrong, and (hopefully) you've learned from the experience and won't do it again. You told GF about it, you've told her you've grown and now know better, and yet she still is using it as a weapon against you, which puts her clearly in the wrong. It was over and done with before you even met Current GF, nor was she in any way involved: there is nothing here that needs you to apologize to Current GF. She, on the other hand, needs to get off her high horse and drop the whole thing --- this was your past, it has nothing to do with her or your relationship now.

As Etrigan mentions above, it's the same as with anything else: once you've done something it's easier to do that same thing again. But will you? Does the fact that you were messing around with a girl who already had a serious relationship guarantee you will do it again? No, it certainly does not. Assuming that "done x in the past" means "will definitely do x again in the future" is also assuming no one ever learns or grows past their earlier errors, and that in itself is an error.

Current GF needs to drop this whole thing, right now, and never bring it up again. Lord knows, I'm sure she's made mistakes in the past: would she want each and every one held over her forever? Not hardly.
posted by easily confused at 8:56 PM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]


I wouldn't trust you, especially because you don't feel any remorse. Your girlfriend may not either. But that doesn't mean that no one will ever trust you.
posted by J. Wilson at 8:57 PM on July 23, 2015 [53 favorites]


I agree that the burden of guilt lies with the woman who cheated on her significant other, although you were not blameless, I really don't see it as an equal offense or even close to that level of seriousness.

The way I see it, there is no one amongst us who has never done someone wrong, and therefore to say that doing a wrong thing once means you're doomed to a future of bad behavior seems foolish. Most of us did foolish and ill advised things in our romantic lives when we were young. I certainly hope that is a thing that one should be willing to forgive in someone they love (I'm assuming this happened when you were young, if it happened when you were 50 years old I have less sympathy for your position, although I still think it's a forgivable sin). Does she live in a glass house?

I also think it's silly of her to believe that if she could find someone who has never committed a relationship error in the past, that that in turn predicts that they will never make mistakes in the future. Being in a relationship involves having to trust another human being despite the fact that we are human and imperfect, and we might do wrong things. Even if you had never been in that clandestine relationship, you could still cheat on her. If she breaks up with you and finds someone else who has never been a party to cheating, they could still cheat on her. I know it's all a matter of risk reduction, and I don't think we're talking about the risk having changed in any statistically significant way here. The question is does she trust you? And if she doesn't, is there nothing you can do that would restore her trust? If she's that much a hard-liner that the answer is no, she's probably not the right woman for you (and in my personal opinion, she's being too hard on you, but it doesn't matter what I think and she's allowed to feel however she feels).
posted by treehorn+bunny at 8:58 PM on July 23, 2015 [15 favorites]


I don't think it's that crazy a leap for her to assume you don't think cheating is as bad as she does, because you participated in it. In fact, you seem to have just now realized that it wouldn't be good to do again, if I'm reading you right? An attitude like that is very frightening to someone who values fidelity.

Yeah, finding this out about a partner would probably make me question whether they'd cheat on me, since they were fine with the practice before. This would be a fear, however, not a prediction. I'd need some time to process it and I'd need my partner to be available to answer my questions about it. You haven't said much about her specific reactions but you asked if it was fair. Well, the cat's out of the bag, she can't unhear it, and she gets to feel however she feels, "fair" or not.

If she's torturing you about it for a long time after this, that's a different story.

If the relationship were otherwise strong, I would probably not break up with them. I would, however, break up with them if they used the word "canoodling." ;)
posted by kapers at 9:06 PM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]


Here's the thing. What people SAY about cheating is demonstrably different from how they actually live their lives. I can't think of another area of human behavior (except for maybe parenting?) where what people do, on the whole, differs so drastically from what the opinions they say out loud.

So, here's my minority opinion. I think your girlfriend is wrong to judge you for being an accessory to someone else's cheating on a boyfriend, especially when that person stopped cheating when her relationship got serious. Your gf has no standing to judge you. You had no contract with the guy; and you apparently did no harm to their relationship in any case.

Furthermore, I wouldn't even presume to judge the gal who was cheating on her bf with you. I don't know what the calculus was at the time; I don't know if if the fiance ever found out/suffered because of what was done; I don't know anything about the reasoning or the circumstances. And neither does your gf, because she wasn't in that other gal's relationship. For all she knows, that gal could have had excellent reasons and been a better wife ultimately for having made the decisions she made in the order that she made them.

Of course, your gf can feel however she feels. She has that right. But I think her ideas are... unrealistic, and not productive.

This is a pariah opinion to express on the Green and I fully expect to be sneered at for it. Oh well.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:19 PM on July 23, 2015 [47 favorites]


Kapers, just to be clear, the anon poster is emphasizing that he made out with the engaged woman, but they didn't have sex. While still generally considered cheating, a lot of people would consider this a lesser offense.
posted by ryanrs at 9:22 PM on July 23, 2015


wow, so this is something that you did ONE TIME, while you were single...
I just don't get why your ONE TIME involvement with a person who is in a relationship is so threatening now.
This would be so much different to me if this was a habit to go after married people, but it isn't--
and it happened before your current relationship.

I guess I would want a bit more understanding from my current partner about a stupid thing I did before we got together.
I don't think you need to wear a scarlet letter for this and I think admitting it was a stupid thing is all the 'penance' you need to do.
posted by calgirl at 9:25 PM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]


Some people use 'canoodling' as a cutesy replacement for 'fucking.'

So, OP, here's the thing:

That girl in your past, she was a jerk for cheating on her fiance. (She didn't stop when it got serious, she stopped before the marriage.)

You in your past, you were a jerk for enabling the cheating. (Why would you want to help someone else feel bad if/when they find out?)

Your girlfriend now is perfectly justified in being leery of trusting you, given those two facts.

However. You are also perfectly justified in saying "I understand that you think differently of me for this. And it is not something I am ever going to do in the future, partly from reading [the thread you linked]. I need for you to decide to trust me or walk away, because I will not continue to have actions that occurred before we even knew each other held over my head. I would be happiest if you decide to trust me."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:28 PM on July 23, 2015 [20 favorites]


I'd just like to point out that the OP put the boyfriend's sexual health at risk. Sure, the girlfriend did, too, but the OP was a willing accessory to that crime. I would not trust you, OP.
posted by deathpanels at 9:36 PM on July 23, 2015 [15 favorites]


She has a right to her view on it, of course. But her right to her view doesn't extend to forcing you to share her view. She has to decide whether to live with it or not. It does sound as though you have different moral boundaries about some things, and this could be a valid deal breaker. Nobody should try to force their partner to feel shame about past actions.
posted by frumiousb at 9:43 PM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


Assume for a second that you have a friend going to a university that you do not nor never have gone to. They come to you for help cheating on an exam and you provide them with it. You have no compact with the university nor is there anything illegal about what you've done. But can you see why someone that takes academic rigor seriously would find your actions problematic, especially if you proudly disclaimed that you never cheated on *your* exams?

Some people are going to view someone that enables bad behavior with distrust and that's perfectly fair.

I've cheated, once, around fifteen years ago. My partners trust me because I've owned that it was bad behavior and made sure it never happened again. I've also had relationships destroyed by my partner cheating on me and I damn well hold the other parties partially responsible for the loss of relationships I cared a great deal about. Would I date someone that had been "the other person" in the past? Yes, if they showed concern for what they'd done and had learned from it. If it was just a pleasant lark that they're entirely blameless in, then I'd want nothing to do with them romantically. Because I care a great deal about academic rigor, even if I'm going to two universities at the same time.

whether it's fair for my GF her to assume this predictive of me cheating on her

It may not predict that you'll cheat on her, but it does show that the two of you have substantially different views on the sanctity of relationships, to the degree that it might be a dealbreaker for her.
posted by Candleman at 9:51 PM on July 23, 2015 [23 favorites]


I think the core issue here is not whether you did something wrong but the fact that your girlfriend is questioning whether or not she can trust you to be there for her. I would suggest focusing the conversation on your current relationship and the best resource that I know of is the book Hold Me Tight - 7 Conversations for a Lifetime of Love. Sue Johnson's approach to couple therapy is exactly targeted to this question of "are you there for me? can I count on you?" and there is a lot of research to show that her approach works pretty well. Obviously, a book is not a magic wand but it might help you both move closer to each other and get past these doubts.
posted by metahawk at 10:12 PM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


I hate to say it, but I think the one being the other man/woman is a little different than the one who is actually cheating on their own boyfriend/girlfriend. Both are wrong, but one is hurting a stranger that you have no obligation to, and one is hurting someone who loves you that you have a big obligation to. I don't think they are the same thing. I think you should feel bad about doing it, but I don't think it means you would cheat on your girlfriend.

But my opinion is irrelevant. Your opinion and your girlfriend's opinion are all that matters. I'm not sure you can change your mind on this and she clearly isn't going to change yours. So, you have to decide, if both of you continue to feel the same way about this past behavior, can you get over it or is it a dealbreaker? This is more a question of whether your girlfriend will ever be able to trust you.
posted by AppleTurnover at 10:16 PM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]


This trait in your current girlfriend will only and finally flower as extreme jealousy. She will predicate her obsession, on your past behavior. The jealous character trait won't be owned by her, her acting out will be your fault.

To me, your past before meeting her, your intimate past, belongs to you, it is not anyone else's to dissect. I mean really, will she hold it against you that you once ate liverwurst? Do you have to spin out the reel of your trip to the beach and discuss each and every grain of sand? How will you do it right? Will you say you lived your whole life in a cocoon, waiting for her to unspin the silk?
posted by Oyéah at 10:19 PM on July 23, 2015 [11 favorites]


George: Oh, my God. I must be crazy. What have I done?
Robin: Oh no, what's wrong?
George: What's wrong? I'll tell you what's wrong. I just committed adultery!
Robin: You didn't commit adultery, I did.

I tend to subscribe to the, "once a cheater, always a cheater," truism, which may or may not be fair in general, but I do think it makes a difference that you were the enabler, not the cheater, and that it was only an apparently-PG incident.
posted by rhizome at 10:20 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


I've dated people who were in your position and not cared about it, because they learned not to do it again. It was something they did once when they were younger and more self-absorbed. I have also been cheated on. Still don't care. Actually, that's why I don't care. I've learned that if a monogamous relationship has crumbled to the point of cheating and lying, you can't point fingers at an outsider and claim that they're the reason everything is bad. They're a symptom, not the disease. So, that's a datapoint for you that shows someone would trust you despite your past. That said, I wouldn't want to spend a lot of time with someone actively carrying on with a taken person because of the completely avoidable drama they were enmeshing themselves in (and might suck me into). Which is a different kind of judgement and distrust from the moral kind you're debating with your girlfriend.

I don't think you can argue your way out of this, though--trust is a gut level thing that you can only build through actions that demonstrate trustworthiness, openness, and patience on both your parts. It's fair for her to decide who she will trust even if that judgement is not in line with who you actually are. If you want this to work you have to be understanding of her not trusting you for a while, while also making it clear that the trust needs to eventually be there in order for the relationship to move forward. It's not healthy for either of you to stay in a relationship where one person is not trusted.
posted by rhythm and booze at 10:23 PM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


If I were in the GF's position, I wouldn't trust you...at least not for a very long time, if ever. I agree with some others here, it's not because you were the other man, it's because you don't appear to feel any remorse about it. I don't think that because it happened once it will necessarily happen again, but to me it's less about the incident and more about a fundamental incompatibility when it comes to moral beliefs/standards. I'm sure someone will not have a problem with it, but she may not be that person.

Also, I feel like it's a bit drastic to say that your GF is wielding your past as a 'weapon' against you. If she's having trouble reconciling this bit about your past then she's allowed to question her feelings of trust. But you also don't have to deal with her lack of trust if you don't want to.
posted by sprezzy at 10:25 PM on July 23, 2015 [22 favorites]


I think it might be helpful to people answering this thread if the euphemism "canoodling" could be clarified.
posted by ead at 10:30 PM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]


If you don't feel that this was a "moral violation" as you put it, and your GF does, then I'm afraid that's a matter you won't find much middle ground in. We all have a personal line when it comes to what we can or cannot condone, and hers might be drawn differently. I would encourage you two to have a serious conversation on whether your degree of remorse around this incident (or lack thereof) is something she can agree to live with.

Some people also subscribe to different variations of "Once a cheater always a cheater." Unfortunately that also tends to be something personal and often a product of their specific life events. Whether it's rational or not, or fair or not, people's feelings regarding infidelity isn't easy to change. If your revelation is something she's had time to ruminate on and is having trouble getting past, you may be at an uncomfortable standstill in the relationship with only one solution, and it involves an exit door. You've been honest with her both about the event and about your feelings, and now it's up to her to decide how she wants to handle the rest. Let her know that.
posted by erratic meatsack at 10:55 PM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


I think your girlfriend is wrong to judge you for being an accessory to someone else's cheating on a boyfriend, especially when that person stopped cheating when her relationship got serious.

That is just not accurate. Look at what the OP wrote: "The girl I was canoodling with got engaged, while the cheating continued." They only stopped later, "before the marriage." So yes, the OP technically didn't participate in any extramarital sex, but he still facilitated cheating on a very serious relationship.

I'd also like the OP to clarify what "canoodling" is supposed to mean. Some people use it to mean cuddling or something, while others use it as a direct synonym for sexual intercourse. (Example of the latter: "it always surprised me that with all the alleged canoodling that was going on, Margaret Houlihan was the only MASH-er who ever had a pregnancy scare.")
posted by John Cohen at 11:13 PM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]


I am having trouble feeling the sense of shame and moral violation about this incident that my GF seems to need.

I totally get her on this. The thing is, nearly everyone has done bad things and made mistakes in their past. And most people will relate their past misdeeds with a air of shame and regret, try to offer some explanation for their actions. They understand that hearing the details might cause badly about them and try to say and do things to rebuild the dented trust. Your post, on the other hand, reads like you really don't think it was that big a deal and that you had to search the internet before you were even convinced that people might think you were in the wrong.

In her shoes, I wouldn't trust you, not necessarily because I thought you might cheat on me, but because you seem to be lacking a moral compass, empathy and the ability to learn from mistakes.
posted by intensitymultiply at 12:22 AM on July 24, 2015 [23 favorites]


It's entirely possibly I'm wrong, but in the context of OP's post, I doubt he mean the strict dictionary sense of "canoodling" that some of you seem to be looking up. It's often used to indicate "sex without an actual relationship" in a downplaying the facts manner.

OP clearly describes the actions as "cheating" himself, and also repeats that it continued even after the woman was engaged, but stopped before she was married. That shows repetition, not a single occurrence.

As such, I'm going with the reading that OP was aware that the woman had a SO, and chose to participate anyway for some length of time. That doesn't suggest one time cuddles, by any stretch of the imagination.
posted by stormyteal at 12:38 AM on July 24, 2015 [11 favorites]


And one last thought... say you marry your girlfriend some day. Then at some point later, you learn that before you ever got married, she'd been cheating on you with some guy. It continued, even after she was engaged to you. She told him about you, even that she was going to marry you... and she didn't break it off til right before you got married.

How would YOU feel? Would you really, honestly believe that the guy had done no wrong?
posted by stormyteal at 12:46 AM on July 24, 2015 [24 favorites]


Yeah, the whole "It wasn't my promise to break" line has always struck me as kind of pedantic loophole rules-mongering. Like, people who go by "The Literal Rules" instead of "the spirit of the rules" - which in life and in law has always annoyed me.

Accessory to murder is a crime for a reason. Helping others do wrong is pretty much like 75% as wrong in my opinion. Round up and that's plenty wrong.

Mitigating factors: you didn't know, you didn't have sex, the duration of the affair was short, genuine remorse.

(Doesn't sound like you have many of those mitigating factors on your side though.)
posted by quincunx at 1:07 AM on July 24, 2015 [21 favorites]


I would tend to think of it this way - someone cheated on her fiance with you, with you fully aware of the situation. If her fiance were to know about this, would he hate only her? It's pretty safe to assume he'd want nothing to do with you, right? Yeah, you weren't the one breaking the personal contract, but you definitely did something that would hurt the guy, even if he never knew. It's not as hurtful as what she was doing, but it's not like you're totally in the clear just because you didn't know him. You weren't just a tool she used to do something wrong. You knew what you were doing and you did it anyway.

I'm sure you mean it when you say you'd never cheat on your girlfriend, but the issue here seems to be less about what you did than it is about how you see it now. At the very least, be understanding of why it might be hard for someone to adjust to this kind of knowledge about the person they're dating. It's in the past for you, but she's processing it now. If this is like any other disagreement in a relationship, it's probably worth being able to bend a little to their side.
posted by teponaztli at 1:28 AM on July 24, 2015 [4 favorites]


It's often used to indicate "sex without an actual relationship" in a downplaying the facts manner.

If in conversations with your girlfriend, you are downplaying and minimizing the events in the same way you are here (such as by using cutesy euphemisms like "canoodling"), I can easily see why her concern might go way up. You stated quite plainly above that you broke a social contract, and I hope you are that plain about it with her, and about your understanding of the costs of doing so.

For me, personally, this wouldn't be a total red flag, but it would make me wonder what other social rules you might decide didn't apply to you. In other words, is this part of a pattern, or was it an isolated case of stepping across a line that you wouldn't do again? From the sounds of things it was a once-off, and I think everyone has a few missteps in their pasts that are fine unless they get repeated too often.

At a more meta-level, it also sounds like you misjudged how open you should be about your sexual and relationship past. Some people like hearing all the details, and others are a lot happier not knowing. This sounds like something that she didn't really want to hear, and wasn't a revelation that is helping your relationship at all.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:13 AM on July 24, 2015 [6 favorites]


this would not bother me in the slightest, but my expectations of fidelity and moral compass are apparently somewhat more skewed than most.
posted by corvine at 2:18 AM on July 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


1. I don't think it's useful for anybody—your girlfriend or otherwise—to ask you to pretend to feel shame or remorse you don't feel, but the corollary is that she thinks what you did is shameful. That you don't feel it's shameful probably makes it harder for her to believe you won't do something else you-oughtta-be-ashamed-of again.

2. I think that for a lot of people the abstract concept "relationship" is more important than it is for you. That is, the respect you show for all relationships generalizes to the respect you show for your relationship in particular. (I don't think "contingent social contract" is necessarily the most natural or common way people think about capital-R Relationships, their own or someone else's. That you and the canoodlee mutually agreed to stop before the wedding [which is just another social contract] suggests that on some level, and at some particular degree of commitment, you also have access to a more metaphysical way of thinking about this.)

Beg the question a little—take as read that your girlfriend, independent of your opinion or your worldview, believes what you did to be cheating. That makes you not only a cheater but a cheater who doesn't believe he was cheating. What possible assurance could she have, in that scenario, that you wouldn't do it again? ("It," in this case, being anything she believes to be cheating.)

You can do a fine job of explaining your ethical system without persuading anybody to shift theirs, and even if you do it perfectly you're simultaneously reminding people that they can't predict your behavior with their own moral compass. That's a chilling thing to realize about someone you love, especially when it catches you off guard.
posted by Polycarp at 2:25 AM on July 24, 2015 [13 favorites]


Wow, I am way off from most of the other posters on this one.

First off, don't ever talk to your GF about your romantic past again. This way madness lies. It never does any good.

This really depends on the individuals involved. I would find a partner who was unwilling to be open about previous relationships to be suspicious.

I am having trouble feeling the sense of shame and moral violation about this incident that my GF seems to need.

Ditto. I suspect this is a basic compatibility issue that probably goes to how you view trust, jealousy, and autonomy within relationships.

My answer to "How would YOU feel? Would you really, honestly believe that the guy had done no wrong?" is that whoever my partner had an affair with is so far down the totem pole as to be nearly irrelevant. If that's your answer too, then I think we're basically marooned over here in a relatively small minority.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:27 AM on July 24, 2015 [9 favorites]


I think your girlfriend is upset with your prior "canoodling" with an engaged woman because it more specifically reflects poorly on your lack of impulse control, empathy, and ability to foresee consequences than the societal shorthand rule "cheating is bad". Did you want the cheater to break her engagement? If she had would you have been there for her? Your girlfriend is right to ask these questions and apply them to your current relationship: Are you capable of impulse control now? Do you care about the consequences of your actions?

Also please never use the term canoodle to mean fucking again. It's practically sociopathic is its attempt to minimize the act of fucking someone, engaged or not.
posted by charlielxxv at 2:42 AM on July 24, 2015 [38 favorites]


To add another thought, I also don't like the lack of agency you're presumably implying here. More or less "it was all her, she made the choice, she came onto me" sort of stuff. In general I am very suspicious of anyone protesting a lack of agency but perhaps even moreso with male/female relationships. (Not a huge jump from that to "I'm not paying child support" if you see what I mean. Not with you specifically, but sadly it's a pattern.)
posted by quincunx at 3:37 AM on July 24, 2015 [10 favorites]


What "canoodling" means in this context wouldn't matter to me, though it clearly does to some people, and that's fine - there's not a universal rubric for bad relationship behavior. It also wouldn't matter to me whether the cheater's relationship was visibly affected. What would matter to me is that you were knowingly an accessory to cheating, for what sounds like a prolonged period, and that instead of thinking "wow, that was a shitty thing to do and I've learned my lesson" you're attempting to diminish it with "not a personal but a social contract" and the rest.

I take you at your word when you say you wouldn't cheat, and I don't think what you did is predictive of cheating. But it does imply some okayness with cheating, or at least a willingness to ignore the rules when there's something you want. To help someone cheat on a relationship can demonstrate a lack of empathy, a willingness to lie or conceal things (unless you were introducing her to your friends all "hey guys, here's the lady who's cheating on her fiancé with me!"), an inability to see the big picture, and an avoidance of personal responsibility, especially if you describe the affair in "one thing led to another and before we knew it"-style language. To look back on it with anything more wishy-washy than "yep, I was totally wrong" implies that you might not have fully matured past those things. You don't have to feel totally consumed with guilt over what happened, you just have to acknowledge that you were wrong.

I'd also be concerned that your attempts to explain why your actions weren't so bad (you weren't technically the one doing the cheating, you decided to end it before it imploded, she got married) might indicate a certain weaseliness. Maybe that manifests in an everyday "you're mad at me for not cleaning the kitchen, but here are reasons x, y, and z why you shouldn't be" way, which diminishes the other person's feelings and gets exhausting. Maybe it's an eventual "okay, I kissed that other woman while you were away, but here are all the reasons it wasn't actually cheating."
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:49 AM on July 24, 2015 [20 favorites]


I think it's a matter for your girlfriend to decide, really, since you cannot undo what you did. Can she forgive something from your past? If she can't let go, then you have your answer.
posted by Kwadeng at 4:22 AM on July 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


It's harder and harder to find people riding around on high horses as they get older. Is it possible your girlfriend is just young and still tending toward black and white thinking? Or is it possible that she doesn't trust you because she finds it difficult to trust in general and there is something in her past that makes this topic difficult? If it's the second, maybe focus on how your past actions and her present feelings are a mutual thing to work out as a team.

On a different point: I can't really tell how you feel about your girlfriend from your phrasing. Love and concern are a little lacking. Although I'm in the camp that wouldn't even blink about this bit of history I do note that not only do you not feel that worked up about the past relationship, you don't seem all that worked up about this one. So you might consider the possibility that you're not actually all that into this current woman and her nervousness might have more to do with her picking up on that than the past relationship. If so, cut the woman some slack and end it.

If you just didn't include that in order to focus on the 'intellectual' aspect of the question, never mind.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:37 AM on July 24, 2015 [4 favorites]


I am having trouble feeling the sense of shame and moral violation about this incident that my GF seems to need.

This might mean you don't share the same values. I can't tell for sure, because you don't spell out what this part of the conversation looks like. You're putting it in terms that suggest you are not putting on a sufficient show of remorse which, put like that, sounds like she is making a somewhat unreasonable demand, in your mind. If in fact you think it's unreasonable, and she stick to her point of view, well that is the sort of thing relationships break up over. So, the two of you might just decide to split up.
posted by BibiRose at 4:42 AM on July 24, 2015 [2 favorites]


I wouldn't be able to trust you either and for me this would be a deal breaker. I don't personally see a huge amount of difference between you cheating on YOUR partner vs. you being the person someone cheats on THEIR partner with. Both sides reflect a deep lack of respect for others, lack of caring about the suffering you're causing others, a huge amount of selfishness, and lack of empathy. I have ended FRIENDSHIPS with people because they were actively sleeping with married men and they saw it as a sort of sport, where all I could see was the heartbreak and upset and disrespect it would cause the married men's wives. And then she started sleeping with a man whose wife was going through aggressive cancer treatments, and that was it for me. I simply did not want to be associated with someone who was okay with doing something I found so morally bankrupt and wrong. I understand that not everyone has as severe and condemning stance on infidelity as I do.

You showed that you don't respect others' relationships (who cares if your sleeping with this girl could end her relationship with her boyfriend), you don't respect others feelings (who cares that this would devastate her fiance/husband if/when he finds out), and to me it would show a lot of selfishness. Your needs, your enjoyment, your ability to have sex was more important to you than the feelings of another person. You valued your fucking this woman over her fiance's feelings. Fucking this girl was worth disrespecting this man in a huge huge way. You could have have just as easily found a non-engaged, non-attached person to fuck, but nah. You didn't know the guy, you didn't have to see his face when he finds out the woman he loved cheated on him, so you didn't care. And even now in retrospect you STILL don't care, you still don't get why what you did was disrespectful and (in my opinion) wrong, you still have no remorse. It isn't like you learned from it and matured and grew as a person and developed some empathy, because you haven't.

So yeah, I absolutely get why your girlfriend is seriously questioning the relationship.

There are lots of people who wouldn't have a problem with what you did. There are lots of people who are like you, and who have no problem being the person other people cheat on their partners with. There are lots of people who feel that it isn't your business or concern if the person you're sleeping with is attached. I am not one of them, nor is your girlfriend. If your girlfriend decides that she can't continue the relationship, I suggest that the next person you date you either NOT tell them about this or (preferably) find someone whose morals and ethics and stance on adultery align with yours.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 5:01 AM on July 24, 2015 [25 favorites]


I'm deeply confused. Does "canoodling" mean something vastly different than it used to? Like, does it mean sex now? I feel so old.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:12 AM on July 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


For me, personally, this wouldn't be a total red flag, but it would make me wonder what other social rules you might decide didn't apply to you.

Yeah I see this as the bigger deal. As people said above, you and your GF don't share values around this incident, which is one thing. However there are a whole host of values that, in the absence of outlining and spelling out every individual thing, people presume they might share. And it might be a thing for her that she feels either that she has to spell them out, or that she worries that there may be something she is not thinking of.

I mean look at this thread with people unclear what even happened. If that's typical of the way you explain stuff, that would worry me because then I would feel like I'd have to be doing the emotional labor to tease out of you what happened and exactly where you stood right now.

So to bring it around, I am also in a relationship like this. Without spelling out specifics me and my SO both have things we've done in our past, in relationships, that were against the rules. And we're not judgey with ourselves too much but we feel we've changed and are now relationship rule followers, not because we're afraid but because we've matured. We've talked it through. We went over the terminology that defines the agreements we have with each other and I am comfortable with that. When something weird happens--I had a drunken friend who I hugged goodnight one night and he grabbed me and kissed me - don't know if that was a problem for my SO (it was a problem for me)--we talk it over. We understand the difference between "something weird happening" and "I had sex with someone else." Everyone's basically allowed to draw that line wherever they want, but oh man is it helpful if people in a committed relationship would, all other things being equal, draw it in about the same place.

And ultimately, it's healthy to realize that you can't control someone else. You can just be clear about how you feel and what the relationship consequences would be if something happened. We all have our risk tolerances and the things we think are "edge cases" around those. You have in the past drawn that line somewhere your current SO wasn't okay with and it's unclear what's changed. You don't have to be ashamed of it, but you do need to have ... a reason to say "I won't do that anymore" It's not your fault, but the world is full of cheating guys who say "I've changed" and what your GF may be concerned about is how to tell if you're one of those guys who is telling the truth or one who is trying to convince himself (and others) that it's the truth while not really feeling that it is.
posted by jessamyn at 6:28 AM on July 24, 2015 [28 favorites]


For the record, the fact that you continued even after she got engaged is extra bad because there is no argument to be made that her relationship with her boyfriend was casual and that maybe he wouldn't be all that upset if he found out. I don't think the lack of ring makes it any better, but just in case you feel it DID give you the all clear it vanished the day he proposed. He proposed to her, which means he loves her so much that he wants to spend his life with her, but you kept on fucking her behind his back. If you're truly having difficulty mustering up the appropriate regret and shame emotions, then maybe you need to spend more time putting yourself in her fiance's place. Seriously sit down, and just replay his life in your mind. Truly and completely put yourself in his place and really try to feel how he would feel. THAT is empathy, and that is what should deter you from knowingly doing things that hurt other people. And I'm guessing that is what your girlfriend is looking for. The fact that you don't really regret what you did means one of two things:
1) Either you so completely lack empathy for others that you truly can't put yourself in his place and appreciate how much pain you were causing.
2) You know full well how much pain and disrespect you are inflicting but don't care.
and those two options are what I would keep playing out in my mind if I was your girlfriend, and that is why I would end the relationship. Because either you have no empathy, or you are completely indifferent and unconcerned about the pain you cause others. Both are pretty bad. If your girlfriend is anything like me that is what she is thinking.

I actually asked my husband about this, I asked what he thought about the cheater vs. the person the cheater cheats with. His response was basically the same as mine, that "They both know what they're doing and they both know what the consequences are. Its kind of like, is there a big difference between the hit man and the person that arranges the hit?".
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 6:36 AM on July 24, 2015 [21 favorites]


Mitigating factors: you didn't know...

Well, if that were true, the OP would be able to present a rock-solid defense to his girlfriend: "I had no idea!" I think we can safely assume the problem isn't solved that easily, or he would have mentioned it.
posted by John Cohen at 6:56 AM on July 24, 2015


It's reasonable for her to not trust you. Let's say your girlfriend feels that embezzlement is wrong. You reveal that in the past, you have embezzled, but you feel that no one was hurt except some company, and you let her know that you would never steal money from her. She would be right to think that you have an incompatible sense of morality that would lead to problems.

However! I think you can find another relationship where both of you define sex with people in committed relationships as breaking social contracts rather than moral ones. And both of you consider social contracts to not be very important. Based on the existence of businesses like Ashley Madison, there is a large market that is cool with that.
posted by ignignokt at 7:50 AM on July 24, 2015 [3 favorites]


I agree with others that it is perhaps more your attitude to what you did than the act itself that your girlfriend is troubled by. I cheated on a long-term partner (literally just 'canoodling' - kissing and some fumbling) but told him the next day and we broke up a month later. I told my now-fiancé about it, but he also knows I feel awful for doing it and hurting my ex. Maybe she's upset by the lack of honesty in the situation you describe - the fact that this girl is now married and her husband is none the wiser. Of course, you can't force her to tell him, but maybe it's your nonchalance about this that upsets her?
posted by Dorothea_in_Rome at 8:08 AM on July 24, 2015 [6 favorites]


This would be 0% a thing for me.

I've done a lot of bad things in the past, so have my friends, my wife, her friends, my parents, my in-laws, my neighbors and my co-workers.

That's the amazing thing about the past, it's not happening right now and won't be happening again in the future.

Maybe the world is full of fucking saints who have never cheated, never been the other man, never done drugs, never lied, never got a speeding ticket and never drank too much... But I haven't met those people. Maybe they don't live in Boston.

What's important is that you make your girlfriend feel comfortable and safe that you are committed and serious about fidelity. That you understand her point of view and respect it. As you don't have a time machine.
posted by French Fry at 8:10 AM on July 24, 2015 [8 favorites]


I don't think your "cheating with" is necessarily evidence that you would then go ahead and "cheat on", but it is evidence that you and your girlfriend have very different values and that she's not capable of making peace with it. It just sounds like you're incompatible in terms of how you relate to these things, and she isn't accepting it, which pretty much makes you incompatible period. She's under no obligation to stay with a cheating-enabler if that's her deal-breaker, but the solution is to break up, not wait around and hope that you'll suddenly change and "get it", and you're under no obligation to stay with a person who can't accept you as you are.

Personally, I'd never in a million years have a relationship with a person who did what you did, not because I think it's an indication that they'd cheat on me, but because they either don't share my aversion to potentially dramatic social situations, or they do but put their own instant gratification ahead of "avoid drama" on their list of priorities, or they just have bad judgement and don't realize how potentially explosive a situation like that could be. Regardless, not someone I'd want to waste time on.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 9:19 AM on July 24, 2015 [2 favorites]


I wouldn't trust you either, although it wouldn't make me think that you would cheat on me. Your lack of remorse specifically shows me that you and I (and the other woman in question) have extremely different ideas on what a marriage means. You stopped before the papers were officially signed? Well . . . good for you, I guess, but I don't see marriage as some magical moment that makes "canoodling" with others suddenly not ok, whereas PLANNING to marry someone means it's all fine. I would be concerned that you seem to think that marriage is this bright line in the sand after which everything changes.

I would wonder, if we were to get married, what other strange ideas you had about marriage and committment that would affect our lives as a couple.
posted by chainsofreedom at 9:44 AM on July 24, 2015 [13 favorites]


There's a whole host of factors you didn't mention that could make this deception even worse, like did you ever meet the guy, was he a friend, was it carried out right under his nose, or a common friend group's nose etc etc. On first read it sounds like the fiance was very far away from you (either physically or socially), but you also downplay sleeping with the woman by calling it "canoodling" so it's hard to say.

The story as you describe would bother me, as I value openness and clarity in my relationship dealings. I would wonder how much of our life together is being "managed" by you & how you present things to me.

Your girlfriend is fair in taking & acting on this info any way she wants to, that's her prerogative as an independent individual.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:54 AM on July 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm pretty surprised that there's so much difference of opinion on this, because I would have assumed that most people would consider this cheating, not a lesser variation. Clearly, a lot of people don't agree with me. Personally, this would be a dealbreaker; I would break up with you. Not because I'd necessarily think you were more likely to cheat on me (though I would also think that) but because we clearly have different values. Some people on here have talked about the idea that everyone makes mistakes. But you don't feel any regret or shame; do you even consider it a mistake? It doesn't sound like you do.
posted by three_red_balloons at 10:10 AM on July 24, 2015 [9 favorites]


A lot of people are commenting that this is a past issue, so it has no bearing on the present or future. I agree that past behavior is not a guarantee of future behavior, but that's usually because we are informed and educated by past events, so that we can make better decisions in the future. This instance of canoodling (I also dislike this cutesy wording) appears to have been a non-event in your mind--so much so that you didn't consider consequences or implications of doing it until you read that thread??--and I think that's what she's bumping on. Maybe in her head, what's to stop you from doing it again if you don't have a problem with it? You say here you would never do it to her but she doesn't know that...not unless you're willing to make a sustained effort to prove to her that fidelity matters in this relationship. Is that fair for you? Maybe, maybe not. But it's all a matter of how badly you want to keep this relationship. If she can't get past it, you're better off apart, I think.

Maybe the world is full of fucking saints who have never cheated, never been the other man, never done drugs, never lied, never got a speeding ticket and never drank too much... But I haven't met those people.

Just because everyone does shitty things doesn't mean we shouldn't feel bad/learn from doing shitty things. No one is flawless, but it's never a bad idea to try and treat others--and their relationships--with respect and kindness.

Also, to many people, not all of those things are equal to the others. Clearly the GF regards this as a more serious issue.
posted by sprezzy at 10:14 AM on July 24, 2015 [8 favorites]


I was unfaithful in my marriage. I was molested as a child and my marriage was dysfunctional. I agonized about it and felt like a terrible person and read all the research I could find for a time.

Off the top of my head, my recollection is that young men very frequently engage in this sort of grey area behavior where they will not cheat on their own gf but they will absolutely cheat with someone else's gf/wife/whatever. IIRC, this behavior does not predict infidelity after marriage. You might try looking for the data yourself if you think hard data might help your gf trust you.

I eventually got divorced and I have been celibate for a decade and I did all kinds of soul searching and therapy and working on my problems. Some men are still judgey assholes who wonder if I can ever be trusted. I am quick to pass on such men.

Most of us have a string of relationships gone wrong in our past. We all have to wrestle with why did it end and was I wrong and so on. You need to be aware that some women will view this harshly and it will be a dealbreaker. You need to decide for yourself if you really think what you did was terrible or understandable or even justifiable. Whatever you decide, this will significantly impact who is willing to get with you at all. That isn't all bad, but it can be a frustrating pain in the ass to deal with.

This gf might not work out. Trust is an important cornerstone of a relationship and you don't have hers.
posted by Michele in California at 10:25 AM on July 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


This is a topic that always evokes extreme feelings, people have a lot of paranoia about cheating in a way that is not generally applied to other deal-breakers. And given how incredibly common cheating is maybe that point of view is valid. It's a real gut reaction thing.

The most practical thing I can say is: ask her, as compassionately as possible, to trust you or break up with you.

You can't date with sorta-trust.
posted by French Fry at 10:59 AM on July 24, 2015 [4 favorites]


Honestly, I'm pretty strongly infidelity-averse, and I don't think you should feel remorse for kissing someone who was in a relationship. I think expecting you to is pretty idiotic, in fact. *You* didn't cheat. You didn't break anyone with whom you had an implicit bond of trust. The other party? Admittedly kind of a shitbag, and I certainly don't think I'd ever trust her. But you? C'mon. She (your partner) needs to decide whether she can get past this or not, and then do so. You need to not permit yourself to be beaten up too much over something you did once, years ago, and wouldn't do again. There's really no such thing as infidelity-at-one-remove.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 11:07 AM on July 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


Your girlfriend has every right to draw her line in the sand wherever she sees fit, even if you think it isn't "fair" to you, but you are not in any way duty-bound to flagellate yourself in accordance with her standards. I get the sense that you wish you felt worse about the affair than you do, and while I disagree that a lack of 'sufficient' guilt/contrition over bad decisions is necessarily a key indicator of present and future untrustworthiness, it has definitely been my experience that people will bolt over this particular issue faster than any other.

So if I were you, I'd consider this something of a fundamental incompatibility, break up, and move on. And if you're comfortable doing so and would appreciate reams of heartfelt advice from someone who has been in your position several times over, drop me a MeMail. I don't think being the Other will (or should) damn you to a life spent wandering the moors, cold and lonely, but yeah, if you don't play it SUPER close to the vest, dating -- even, like, 10+ years later -- can be inescapably fraught.
posted by divined by radio at 11:55 AM on July 24, 2015 [2 favorites]


It's fine for you to feel whatever you feel about your role in that affair, but if I were your girlfriend, I too would be deeply put off by your cutesy minimization and lack of remorse. And I don't think there's anything particularly high horse-y about wanting to be with someone who actively learned from and felt remorse over something they did that had the potential for such deeply hurtful consequences.

This isn't to say that you have to feel remorse, or that I would want to "force" those feelings on you - hell, you are who you are, so own that - but some people aren't compatible with someone who doesn't grok why what they did was wrong in a situation like yours (and of course other people would agree with you that you weren't wrong, but your girlfriend doesn't seem to be one of them). I'd agree with the folks who've said that they wouldn't want to be with you because of this - not because I'd be afraid (or "paranoid," which feels grossly belittling to me) of more cheating, but because your lack of remorse speaks to a very different value system.

So, you know, I wouldn't really judge you as a bad person, but I would probably judge you as a bad person for me. It sounds like your girlfriend is considering something similar, and that's absolutely fair. A breakup isn't an indicator that one person is inherently bad, just that the two of you weren't compatible. Maybe you'd be better off with someone who is totally onboard with your previous choices and current response to them - as you can see from this thread, there are plenty of people out there who would be okay with them.
posted by DingoMutt at 12:10 PM on July 24, 2015 [5 favorites]


Yeah, I'm with everyone else, I think you have different sets of values which can be a dealbreaker and might be. Personally, I'd find this situation to be a red flag becuase it goes against my values and like most people I want a partner with values similar to mine.

It doesn't make you a bad person or be it would mean we weren't a good fit. I mean people can choose to be with whoever that for whatever reason and vice versa. So whether she's being fair or not is irreverent in this case. No one needs a good reason to end things.

So I think real issue isn't so.much that you enabled cheating, it's the fact that you did and you're cool with it. You may never cheat on her you still have crossed one of the invisible lines we all draw in the sand.

Also, clarify canoodling. Like most people I think you're talking about sex because honestly who the hell secretly makes out and gropes for months? If it is sex don't downplay it...own up to it and call it sex so everyone is clear.
posted by CosmicSeeker42 at 12:44 PM on July 24, 2015 [6 favorites]


Back when I was a pinwheeling disaster of a person (not saying you are) I had an affair with a married man. At the time, I was like, there are no emotions on either side, we're practicing safe sex, no harm, no foul.

And I haven't thought of the married dude for years until today, we both treated each other with respect. And we practiced safe sex except whoops that one time the condom broke.

But I didn't get pregnant (thank God) and neither of us developed feelings for each other.

It did hurt my reputation, but then, I was not a well person, and my rep would have exploded with or without married guy.

But: Here's the thing: there was a potential for disaster with married guy. I could have got pregnant. He would have had feelings about that. His wife could have caught us. He had kids. They could have got divorced.

It could have fucked up a lot of lives.

So what I've told my significant other is that I was one hot mess for years x through y. I've told him, sincerely, that I profoundly regret the things that I've done. Cheating has not come up, but I've told him enough that he knows I was out of control and being promiscuous was part of it. I'm sure, if he thought about it, he would guess that I've done what you did (and jeez whether she was married or engaged, that isn't really a huge distinction for me in this context)

But he knows that it's painful for me to recount the many different ways that I was a hot mess. He knows that I have all sorts of regret. And, because he has a sense of what my morality now entails, I believe he's pretty secure with me.

Just from what you've written, my reaction is that as your significant other, I would be upset with both the actions and your attitude towards them. How you guys work through that is I guess in significant part up to you.

TLDR: If you love your girlfriend, you might spend some time thinking of the various ways your whatever the fuck could have gone horribly, horribly wrong. Then express to your girlfriend your understand the potential for disaster and how you (sincerely) regret that you did some shit that could've gone horribly wrong.
posted by angrycat at 1:18 PM on July 24, 2015 [5 favorites]


I can imagine situations where the details of the situation like the one you describe would make a difference to me.

But the way you've laid out the situation here makse me think of cliches like, "you are the company you keep.'

I would think that everybody knows that cheating is wrong and hurtful and the default is to NOT be with someone who is in a committed relationship - and that a person wouldn't help someone cheat unless there was something so compelling about the person that it overcame that default. In your case, something so compelling about her to keep you in sexual/romantic relationship with her for a period of weeks/months/years. To me the thought that you would be completely okay with having a long term romantic/sexual relationship with a woman who was actively cheating on someone who trusted her would indicate that you don't care very much about the character/integrity of the women you get involved with.

That would really bother me and it's about *your* sexual and romantic values and ethics, not about the details of who was breaking promises to whom.
posted by Salamandrous at 2:02 PM on July 24, 2015 [3 favorites]


It's not your being the "other man" in the past that would be the major issue for me (though it would be an issue) - it's your not feeling any genuine remorse in the present. That you see nothing wrong with your behavior even now would make me wonder if you're a sociopath.

If I were your girlfriend, I wouldn't be able to trust your moral compass and would have to conclude that we aren't compatible. It's not that I'd worry you'd cheat on me, per se - it's that I'd worry about your judgment in general.

I think you owe your girlfriend a thorough explanation of your own personal "contract" and your understanding of morality with regard to that relationship as well as the one you're in now. Why didn't your behavior violate your own moral code? What specific reasons do you have for not feeling bad about your conduct? Why do you continue to rationalize your being sexual in any way with a woman who was lying to her partner and hiding your relationship? Do you feel that the woman you "canoodled" with was behaving immorally? If not, why not? These are things you need to think through and answer honestly - both for yourself and your girlfriend.
posted by Gray Skies at 2:12 PM on July 24, 2015 [9 favorites]


This very thread is a fascinating illustration of two aspects of fidelity:

1) People have strong opinions about fidelity.

2) Those specific opinions vary.

Which, when paired with jessamyn's statement that...

there are a whole host of values that, in the absence of outlining and spelling out every individual thing, people presume they might share.

...becomes quite the recipe for disaster. Take two people, each assuming that their personal view of fidelity is the One True Way, to the degree that it doesn't even need to be discussed, and things can get pretty ugly when they realize they actually have different opinions.

If I were you, I'd reiterate that even if you don't feel the same way as your girlfriend does about being the Other Person, you are strongly committed to being faithful to her. That may not be enough; she may only want to be with someone who shares her theoretical views. But she might come to terms with the disagreement, provided you're on the same page about the practicalities of what fidelity means in your relationship. You aren't likely to persuade her to care less about this; all you can do is be honest with her.
posted by orangejenny at 5:37 PM on July 24, 2015 [4 favorites]


Wow tough crowd here, interesting to read some of the stronger responses. You didn't cheat, break any promises, or lie about what you did. In fact you seem to be pretty honest about your past. I wouldn't call you a "cheater" at all and I certainly don't think this needs the level of remorse or shame demanded by some people here. You were single, the cheating was on her end, however ill-advised seeing someone under those circumstances may be. I don't think that reflects on your trustworthiness - but I'm not the person you need to convince.

Maybe my own moral compass is off, but I find it really interesting that more than a few people here seem to think that you should lie to your current partner about your past relationships instead of being honest about what sounds like a (inappropriate) fling that ran it's course a long time ago. To me, that would be a dealbreaker.
posted by bradbane at 7:38 PM on July 24, 2015 [5 favorites]


I'm also a little taken aback by some of the responses and wonder (not for the first time) how much of this is cultural. Did I live in Europe for too long? Or am I just really old? My sense from my friends is that relationships are complicated, messy and hard and we don't always make perfect choices in relationships and I don't see one of the many varieties of cruelty to each other as fundamentally worse than the rest.

I completely get not wanting to be with someone who sees fidelity as a grey area. I'm a relationship rule-follower myself, and prefer to be with someone who is as well. Your girlfriend has a right to care about that, and how much she cares about it is her business. From the situation as you describe it, I would probably insist on a long conversation about how you felt about fidelity now, but if I accepted we both agreed on the current rules between the two of us, then that would be that.
posted by frumiousb at 9:07 PM on July 24, 2015 [2 favorites]


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