Beginner Programmer Salaries in NYC?
July 23, 2015 8:49 AM Subscribe
I'm a brand-new full-stack web developer (with an emphasis on front-end) at a small NYC startup. I'm on contract but will probably be asked if I want to permanently join the team next week. What offer would be too low for me to say yes?
I went to one a web development bootcamp in NYC in the hopes of entering a more lucrative field (34, married, too poor to start the family we want, my husband's small business is never going to make much money). I love programming but, holy moly, am I not talented at it, and three months isn't much training for something so broad and full of such bright people. I'm decent at front-end and JavaScript frameworks, so I applied to front-end jobs. My program advised me these should pay about $60K, and I should ask for $65K.
I was lucky and got a three-month contract job with a tiny five-person art/fashion startup and a mentor I love. They're fairly well-known for their size and in the press a bunch, but I don't know if this means they have money or just make for good print. They definitely hired me on the strength of my personality and ability to fit in with their small team and NOT because of my coding ability, which they never tested. I don't know if I would have gotten the job if they'd tested me (the only test was they had me install Django on my laptop and watched while I troubleshot any hiccups in the installation). I do front-end with some back-end, answer all customer service tech questions, and spend a lot of my time managing and organizing things for my mentor, who is the only full-stack developer and very easily distracted. I just designed the front-end of our new website, which we just launched. They want me to handle analytics and Facebook ads and things like that one we're done smoothing out our relaunch. They currently pay me $18.75/hour, which feels low but at least I got a mentor.
I have a discussion with the owners about going full-time on Monday. I know they don't offer benefits, and I know they pay their other employers about $30K. This is not a salary I can accept in NYC at my age and with my employment experience and education (which is pretty extensive). If I'm going to get my own benefits, I also need to factor that cost in. The only problem is . . . I don't really know the market all THAT well. Is $60K high for a front-end developer with three months of training and three months of experience? Is it low? Is it just right?
You obviously don't know my financial situation, so you don't know what the lowest amount I can accept is, but if you know the field and put yourself in my business situation, what is the wage range you feel would be acceptable? I have no idea what their financials are, but I don't want to be so blinded by the fact that I'm not confident about my abilities, scared to interview somewhere else, and worried that my nice bosses don't have enough money to hire someone better that I accept something insultingly low for the industry. I also don't want to overestimate my worth and ask for something silly. Help?
I went to one a web development bootcamp in NYC in the hopes of entering a more lucrative field (34, married, too poor to start the family we want, my husband's small business is never going to make much money). I love programming but, holy moly, am I not talented at it, and three months isn't much training for something so broad and full of such bright people. I'm decent at front-end and JavaScript frameworks, so I applied to front-end jobs. My program advised me these should pay about $60K, and I should ask for $65K.
I was lucky and got a three-month contract job with a tiny five-person art/fashion startup and a mentor I love. They're fairly well-known for their size and in the press a bunch, but I don't know if this means they have money or just make for good print. They definitely hired me on the strength of my personality and ability to fit in with their small team and NOT because of my coding ability, which they never tested. I don't know if I would have gotten the job if they'd tested me (the only test was they had me install Django on my laptop and watched while I troubleshot any hiccups in the installation). I do front-end with some back-end, answer all customer service tech questions, and spend a lot of my time managing and organizing things for my mentor, who is the only full-stack developer and very easily distracted. I just designed the front-end of our new website, which we just launched. They want me to handle analytics and Facebook ads and things like that one we're done smoothing out our relaunch. They currently pay me $18.75/hour, which feels low but at least I got a mentor.
I have a discussion with the owners about going full-time on Monday. I know they don't offer benefits, and I know they pay their other employers about $30K. This is not a salary I can accept in NYC at my age and with my employment experience and education (which is pretty extensive). If I'm going to get my own benefits, I also need to factor that cost in. The only problem is . . . I don't really know the market all THAT well. Is $60K high for a front-end developer with three months of training and three months of experience? Is it low? Is it just right?
You obviously don't know my financial situation, so you don't know what the lowest amount I can accept is, but if you know the field and put yourself in my business situation, what is the wage range you feel would be acceptable? I have no idea what their financials are, but I don't want to be so blinded by the fact that I'm not confident about my abilities, scared to interview somewhere else, and worried that my nice bosses don't have enough money to hire someone better that I accept something insultingly low for the industry. I also don't want to overestimate my worth and ask for something silly. Help?
From anecdotal evidence of friends' salaries in this industry, I'd say $60k is on the low end of front-end web developer salaries in NYC, which probably makes it appropriate for this job, given the field the start up is in and your level of experience and professed competency. $30k would be silly low, you should be able to do much better than that ITE. Also, once you have a bit of experience, you could probably transition to another job where you make significantly more.
About this thing you said, though: "This is not a salary I can accept in NYC at my age and with my employment experience and education (which is pretty extensive)." Your previous employment experience and education will, of course, affect what you can sell to yourself (and that alone can allow you to get more in a negotiation). But if they're not relevant to your new career as a front-end web designer, they won't change what people are going to offer to pay you to do that.
posted by benbenson at 9:05 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
About this thing you said, though: "This is not a salary I can accept in NYC at my age and with my employment experience and education (which is pretty extensive)." Your previous employment experience and education will, of course, affect what you can sell to yourself (and that alone can allow you to get more in a negotiation). But if they're not relevant to your new career as a front-end web designer, they won't change what people are going to offer to pay you to do that.
posted by benbenson at 9:05 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: My previous employment experience is only relevant in that I'm not a new college grad and have spent twelve or so years in offices, which isn't worth much, but (having been twenty-two and also having spent most of my working life observing new-to-the-workforce people who still need a while to learn to navigate office life, have a boss, organize their shit, take leadership on projects, etc.) I do think it's worth some amount of extra $$.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 9:11 AM on July 23, 2015
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 9:11 AM on July 23, 2015
You seem very down on the extent to which you can actually call yourself a junior frontend dev, but assuming you're a junior frontend dev...
$60k seems on the (very) low side to me for a junior frontend in NYC in the present circumstances. $30k without benefits is is absolutely insane.
Interns get substantially more than $60k on summer contracts (that link is SF, not NYC, so you should scale those numbers down by ~20% to get the NYC tech equivalent, but you get the idea).
If you're talking to startups, take a look at the salary ranges indicated for equivalent postings on Angel List. I think you'll see numbers more like $80-100k. (You'll also see lots of job opportunities!)
posted by caek at 9:13 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
$60k seems on the (very) low side to me for a junior frontend in NYC in the present circumstances. $30k without benefits is is absolutely insane.
Interns get substantially more than $60k on summer contracts (that link is SF, not NYC, so you should scale those numbers down by ~20% to get the NYC tech equivalent, but you get the idea).
If you're talking to startups, take a look at the salary ranges indicated for equivalent postings on Angel List. I think you'll see numbers more like $80-100k. (You'll also see lots of job opportunities!)
posted by caek at 9:13 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is tricky. Little experience, you don't know if you're good (possibly impostor syndrome because while this stuff isn't rocket science, it can be difficult), and it sounds like you're working for a publication, a category of business that is often not rolling in cash.
Also, it sounds like you'd have responsibilities that differ somewhat from traditional sandboxed front-end/full-stack dev. Managing and organizing things for someone else and doing analytics and ads are different positions and I have no idea what they would pay. It's possible they pay less -- though I will say that doing such things would help keep you from getting pigeonholed as purely a code monkey. There could be a lot to learn here that goes beyond code; it's possible you could treat this as an extended internship.
And in the end, your market value is the offers you receive and negotiate. If you think they're about to make you an offer, you should be trying to get other offers, which will give you a better idea of what your best available alternatives could/should be paid than we can give you.
That said:
* $60k actually sounds low to me for a competent jr developer, particularly for a major metro area like NYC. $30k sounds *very* low.
* If they're going to offer to move you from contract to full-time, that means you're valuable to them. That should come with a bump. If you're at $18.75, that's already north of $30k. They probably should be coming in north of $40k, and probably should offer benefits to you if they're offering them to anyone at all.
posted by weston at 9:37 AM on July 23, 2015
Also, it sounds like you'd have responsibilities that differ somewhat from traditional sandboxed front-end/full-stack dev. Managing and organizing things for someone else and doing analytics and ads are different positions and I have no idea what they would pay. It's possible they pay less -- though I will say that doing such things would help keep you from getting pigeonholed as purely a code monkey. There could be a lot to learn here that goes beyond code; it's possible you could treat this as an extended internship.
And in the end, your market value is the offers you receive and negotiate. If you think they're about to make you an offer, you should be trying to get other offers, which will give you a better idea of what your best available alternatives could/should be paid than we can give you.
That said:
* $60k actually sounds low to me for a competent jr developer, particularly for a major metro area like NYC. $30k sounds *very* low.
* If they're going to offer to move you from contract to full-time, that means you're valuable to them. That should come with a bump. If you're at $18.75, that's already north of $30k. They probably should be coming in north of $40k, and probably should offer benefits to you if they're offering them to anyone at all.
posted by weston at 9:37 AM on July 23, 2015
Response by poster: Not publishing. Fashion. Part of an art/tech incubator. Don't want to babysit, just want to clarify so can crowdsource best answer. Thx!
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 9:41 AM on July 23, 2015
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 9:41 AM on July 23, 2015
Just as a counter to what caek is saying, senior engineers at netflix can make 270k+, but that doesn't mean that's an average or reasonable salary for most (any?) senior engineers in NYC. I think a more common intern salary for a summer web dev internship is $12-20 in nyc. The elite companies in silicon valley paying 8k a month for interns are looking only at people in elite programs for CS and math. Check out glassdoor.com for salary ranges for similar companies or startups for what people actually get paid.
I would note that facebook ads and analytics doesn't really sound like a typical "web dev" skillset; this stuff is often handled by marketing/analytics people who get paid far less than the average web dev. If you take this job, make sure you aren't just doing mostly producer/project management/admin work and actually getting trained to code better (assuming of course this is your main focus for a full time developer gig). Three months experience is essentially zero experience, you may be terrible but most likely you just need 1-2 years of training and hands-on experience.
posted by shownomercy at 9:45 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I would note that facebook ads and analytics doesn't really sound like a typical "web dev" skillset; this stuff is often handled by marketing/analytics people who get paid far less than the average web dev. If you take this job, make sure you aren't just doing mostly producer/project management/admin work and actually getting trained to code better (assuming of course this is your main focus for a full time developer gig). Three months experience is essentially zero experience, you may be terrible but most likely you just need 1-2 years of training and hands-on experience.
posted by shownomercy at 9:45 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I agree with everything shownomercy says.
Just to be clear, lest the OP goes and asks for $200k, my answer should be read as the answer to the title question 'what is a beginner programmer salary in NYC?'. I don't feel qualified to speak to the particular skillset of the OP or the requirements of a specific role.
That said, and even if this is really a social media role, $30k is still on the very low side in NYC. And if you don't the bootcamp to go to waste, and you want to work towards six figures, then you should think very hard before you take a job that is not a dev role.
posted by caek at 9:54 AM on July 23, 2015
Just to be clear, lest the OP goes and asks for $200k, my answer should be read as the answer to the title question 'what is a beginner programmer salary in NYC?'. I don't feel qualified to speak to the particular skillset of the OP or the requirements of a specific role.
That said, and even if this is really a social media role, $30k is still on the very low side in NYC. And if you don't the bootcamp to go to waste, and you want to work towards six figures, then you should think very hard before you take a job that is not a dev role.
posted by caek at 9:54 AM on July 23, 2015
Best answer: Based on my/friends' experience (I'm a FE dev with no CS degree in NYC), I agree $60k is low and $30k with no benefits is *way way* too low.
I can't really evaluate your skill level from this question, but I find myself wondering from what you've written if you're discounting your level of skill, especially if you're doing things like building the entire FE of a website on your own. Also tech interviewing is pretty broken, and a skill you basically have to learn separate from the actual doing-your-job skills (does your bootcamp offer any support/training for interview skills?), so struggling with interviews is not always a good measure of your abilities either.
Even if you end up not being able to get a completely reasonable salary going full-time at this position, you'll likely learn a lot in a year or so of programming on the job (if you focus on getting better at programming and learning more skills) and will be in better shape to find a new position then.
Are you a woman? If so and you're not involved already, there a bunch of great groups in NYC that offer support and interview practice and ways to improve your skills: Women Who Code for example.
posted by firefleet at 10:01 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I can't really evaluate your skill level from this question, but I find myself wondering from what you've written if you're discounting your level of skill, especially if you're doing things like building the entire FE of a website on your own. Also tech interviewing is pretty broken, and a skill you basically have to learn separate from the actual doing-your-job skills (does your bootcamp offer any support/training for interview skills?), so struggling with interviews is not always a good measure of your abilities either.
Even if you end up not being able to get a completely reasonable salary going full-time at this position, you'll likely learn a lot in a year or so of programming on the job (if you focus on getting better at programming and learning more skills) and will be in better shape to find a new position then.
Are you a woman? If so and you're not involved already, there a bunch of great groups in NYC that offer support and interview practice and ways to improve your skills: Women Who Code for example.
posted by firefleet at 10:01 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Just want to note that an $18.75 hourly contract is about $35,000 per year, assuming 10% unpaid time off for holidays, vacations and sick leave. So $30K would be a pay cut from the contract rate. It would make a lot more sense for them to pay you at least $40K.
I don't mean this to be insulting, and I don't know the industry in NYC. But if you have three months of boot camp experience, you don't know a whole lot yet. And your prior job experience is unfortunately, almost completely irrelevant.
I'd balance the opportunity to learn with the opportunity to make more money. If you're spending half or more of your time really coding and learning, and your mentor is spending time teaching you and gently correcting your mistakes, that's worth a lot. Many employers are going to expect you to come in and be very productive on day one. On the other hand, if you're spending your time doing ad, analytics and organization work, it's a lot less of a good deal.
You're certainly not committed to anything by taking the job. You can take it and look for something that pays more at the same time. But don't discount a year spent learning like crazy, if that's what's actually happening.
posted by cnc at 10:19 AM on July 23, 2015
I don't mean this to be insulting, and I don't know the industry in NYC. But if you have three months of boot camp experience, you don't know a whole lot yet. And your prior job experience is unfortunately, almost completely irrelevant.
I'd balance the opportunity to learn with the opportunity to make more money. If you're spending half or more of your time really coding and learning, and your mentor is spending time teaching you and gently correcting your mistakes, that's worth a lot. Many employers are going to expect you to come in and be very productive on day one. On the other hand, if you're spending your time doing ad, analytics and organization work, it's a lot less of a good deal.
You're certainly not committed to anything by taking the job. You can take it and look for something that pays more at the same time. But don't discount a year spent learning like crazy, if that's what's actually happening.
posted by cnc at 10:19 AM on July 23, 2015
Response by poster: Guys. Th designers get $30k. I am not asking for $30k. Am asking what you think of asking for $60k. Could not take a $40k job, would not think about it for instant, even for bet learning experience on earth.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 10:34 AM on July 23, 2015
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 10:34 AM on July 23, 2015
$30k is pretty low for the designers — as a junior designer in NYC ~8 years ago, I made $55k. So by analogy, I would imagine they might lowball you as well, meaning $60k is a maybe, as far as I can guess. In my opinion, this job doesn't seem so great and I would go back to the bootcamp / keep looking for places set up to handle junior front-enders. I know bootcamp grads / juniors with other backgrounds who did better in terms of tasks, support, and pay.
posted by dame at 10:59 AM on July 23, 2015
posted by dame at 10:59 AM on July 23, 2015
Best answer: 60k is on the low side of things but between your only real experience being the bootcamp and your (probably overly pessimistic) assessment of your skill, it may be in the right ballpark for a first FT job.
However, given that you invested the time in a bootcamp and in general, software dev pays more than analytics unless you're doing the kind of analytics which requires real programming, are you sure this job takes you down the right career path? I would be quite concerned about going to a company without many real programmers to learn from, where your job responsibilities will not lead to further growth as a programmer. That can have long-term career costs so factor that into your decision -- take this job only if the money is good enough to overcome the longer-term detriment.
I think someone of your skills probably is worth at least 60k. However, I'm not sure you're worth 60k at *this* job. In my mind, that's a clear sign you should ask for at least that much -- if they can't pay, that means that they either don't see you bringing that much value which suggests the job doesn't maximize your usefulness or they can't afford it, which means they're not stable or reliable enough. I wouldn't really go much lower unless you think your mentor is amazing and you're learning a lot which will help you in the rest of your career. Of course, if you don't have better offers, you can keep working for them while looking for a better gig.
Best of luck!
posted by bsdfish at 11:00 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
However, given that you invested the time in a bootcamp and in general, software dev pays more than analytics unless you're doing the kind of analytics which requires real programming, are you sure this job takes you down the right career path? I would be quite concerned about going to a company without many real programmers to learn from, where your job responsibilities will not lead to further growth as a programmer. That can have long-term career costs so factor that into your decision -- take this job only if the money is good enough to overcome the longer-term detriment.
I think someone of your skills probably is worth at least 60k. However, I'm not sure you're worth 60k at *this* job. In my mind, that's a clear sign you should ask for at least that much -- if they can't pay, that means that they either don't see you bringing that much value which suggests the job doesn't maximize your usefulness or they can't afford it, which means they're not stable or reliable enough. I wouldn't really go much lower unless you think your mentor is amazing and you're learning a lot which will help you in the rest of your career. Of course, if you don't have better offers, you can keep working for them while looking for a better gig.
Best of luck!
posted by bsdfish at 11:00 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
> Am asking what you think of asking for $60k. Could not take a $40k job, would not think about it for instant, even for bet learning experience on earth.
Since $40K is absolutely out, by all means - ask for $60K. However, based on the very little we know, this company is not likely to pay you $60K. A $60K job, assuming it's salaried, is $28.84 per hour. That's more than a 50% jump from where you are now. It seems unlikely they would be willing to pay you $60K, when you effectively already agreed to work for $35K. I've done techincal contract work in a number of places (not NYC) and the contract rate is usually pretty comparable to the hiring rate.
So, don't let that stop you from asking, but be prepared for them to say no, along with the ripple effects that has.
posted by cnc at 11:59 AM on July 23, 2015
Since $40K is absolutely out, by all means - ask for $60K. However, based on the very little we know, this company is not likely to pay you $60K. A $60K job, assuming it's salaried, is $28.84 per hour. That's more than a 50% jump from where you are now. It seems unlikely they would be willing to pay you $60K, when you effectively already agreed to work for $35K. I've done techincal contract work in a number of places (not NYC) and the contract rate is usually pretty comparable to the hiring rate.
So, don't let that stop you from asking, but be prepared for them to say no, along with the ripple effects that has.
posted by cnc at 11:59 AM on July 23, 2015
Totally sidestepping the question of what you SHOULD ask, because that's been addressed well here and this particular job seems to involve a bunch of stuff that isn't front-end web dev (more specifically, it involves a bunch of stuff from jobs that pay less than front-end web dev jobs do). More broadly, as an engineer in NYC and someone who has mentored a lot of more junior engineers, 60k is extremely low for even a beginner front end web dev position. 70k with full benefits is the bare minimum you should settle for. Bootcamps routinely give their students terrible advice re salary, because they measure their effectiveness by job placement rates, not salary in those jobs.
posted by Itaxpica at 1:25 PM on July 23, 2015
posted by Itaxpica at 1:25 PM on July 23, 2015
Nthing what cnc said: go ahead and ask for $60K or whatever minimum amount you've decided. I don't think you'll get it, but also your situation is so unusual that I do not think there are any guidelines or metrics that can apply. It's like you've achieved your own personal Singularity:
- you're in NYC, where salaries make no sense and some people can't survive on $1,000,000/year but you've got two co-workers who are okay at $30,000/year.
- it sure sounds like the place you're working for is trying to do things cheaply.
- it does not sound like you or anyone has a clear idea of what your job is. Marketing? Design? Coding?
- you have 3 months of bootcamp and 3 months of experience? What other careers / jobs will pay $60K/year for that kind of background?
In a perfect world, you'd get paid according to the value you provide. Which would probably be based on what you've contributed over the past 3 months. Can you point at a substantial body of work that will justify $60K/year?
Finally, it might be worthwhile to consider just why they want to offer you a full time position. What are they going to get from the deal? A common scenario is that you will become an exempt employee, which means you'll get a salary and no more overtime (were they paying you overtime?) but you'll still be expected to work a lot of overtime.
I'm sorry that this is not a happier analysis.
posted by doctor tough love at 5:38 PM on July 23, 2015
- you're in NYC, where salaries make no sense and some people can't survive on $1,000,000/year but you've got two co-workers who are okay at $30,000/year.
- it sure sounds like the place you're working for is trying to do things cheaply.
- it does not sound like you or anyone has a clear idea of what your job is. Marketing? Design? Coding?
- you have 3 months of bootcamp and 3 months of experience? What other careers / jobs will pay $60K/year for that kind of background?
In a perfect world, you'd get paid according to the value you provide. Which would probably be based on what you've contributed over the past 3 months. Can you point at a substantial body of work that will justify $60K/year?
Finally, it might be worthwhile to consider just why they want to offer you a full time position. What are they going to get from the deal? A common scenario is that you will become an exempt employee, which means you'll get a salary and no more overtime (were they paying you overtime?) but you'll still be expected to work a lot of overtime.
I'm sorry that this is not a happier analysis.
posted by doctor tough love at 5:38 PM on July 23, 2015
Best answer: $60K is about right for a front end developer with lots of life experience but very little programming experience. If you really love them, you can try to live on 50K for a while until you learn enough to get paid more somewhere else. You might be able to get more elsewhere but you'd have to interview well and be lucky. If you can get them to give you 50-60 and you enjoy the work environment I'd take it for long enough to get more experience before jumping somewhere closer in the 80 range.
posted by ch1x0r at 6:06 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ch1x0r at 6:06 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 8:51 AM on July 23, 2015