To woo or not to woo, and how to woo if I do?
July 22, 2015 9:13 AM Subscribe
I went on a date with an amazing woman, she told me she thinks I'm amazing but just isn't feeling the chemistry. Been there, done that, but this time I'd kind of like to *not* just give up. I know rom coms have lied to us all, but surely it's possible to try to court a woman without coming off as a creepster?
I'm a 41 year old man who has gone on far more dates than he'd like to think about. I usually meet women on online dating sites like OK Cupid (I actually married a woman I met on OKC, but it didn't end up working out). I'm a fairly successful professional, funny (I do stand-up comedy), kind to animals, loyal to friends, and try to be a good person. I'm also a bit of a dork and I'm not really what you'd call handsome or athletic, but I try to dress well and stay in shape.
Last week I went on a date with a woman who, honestly, seems out of my league but I asked her out on a whim and we had a very nice dinner -- she even drove an hour to see me (I offered to drive to her but she chose to come to me). She is a professor at a local Ivy League university, got her PhD and from another Ivy League, and she's witty and engaging and loves animals and is, frankly, gorgeous. She is also currently going through a divorce.
I've been on dates where a woman is into me, so I know what that looks like. This was kind of the opposite. The conversation flowed and we both clearly enjoyed ourselves, but for much of the date her arms were crossed and she wasn't making eye contact. We hugged and she drove home, and texted me later in the evening that she had a great time.
When I asked her out on a second date she texted back that she really enjoyed herself and wants to see more of me, and that I'm a great guy, but she didn't feel any romantic sparks flying. She just wanted to be upfront that if we got together again it would be just as friends "for now at least."
So, been here many, many times. Normally I'd just take no for an answer and if we lived close enough take her up on her offer to be friends with no expectations. Since she lives an hour away, we'd probably just let things drift apart.
BUT... this time, just this once, I don't want to. I want to try to woo her, to change her mind about me. I've heard of this actually working in the real world, of a man actually being persistent in his attentions and winning a woman over. I've also heard far more stories of a guy being a creepy stalker jerk. I don't want to be a creepy stalker jerk.
I know she's interested in getting together again, and I think I've convinced her to not totally shut the door. Now I just need to figure out what to do next...
So here's my question: Have any of you found yourselves in this situation and managed to turn things around, or had a guy who you weren't interested in but changed your mind about him? If so, any tips on what to do/what not to do?
And in a related note, I've been hearing from women all my life that I'm a great guy but "they just don't see me that way." Not all women, but most. Has anyone ever been in that situation and figured out how to change their behavior in a positive way?
Side note: no Pick Up Artist/Mind Game tips. That's not what I'm looking for. Thanks!
I'm a 41 year old man who has gone on far more dates than he'd like to think about. I usually meet women on online dating sites like OK Cupid (I actually married a woman I met on OKC, but it didn't end up working out). I'm a fairly successful professional, funny (I do stand-up comedy), kind to animals, loyal to friends, and try to be a good person. I'm also a bit of a dork and I'm not really what you'd call handsome or athletic, but I try to dress well and stay in shape.
Last week I went on a date with a woman who, honestly, seems out of my league but I asked her out on a whim and we had a very nice dinner -- she even drove an hour to see me (I offered to drive to her but she chose to come to me). She is a professor at a local Ivy League university, got her PhD and from another Ivy League, and she's witty and engaging and loves animals and is, frankly, gorgeous. She is also currently going through a divorce.
I've been on dates where a woman is into me, so I know what that looks like. This was kind of the opposite. The conversation flowed and we both clearly enjoyed ourselves, but for much of the date her arms were crossed and she wasn't making eye contact. We hugged and she drove home, and texted me later in the evening that she had a great time.
When I asked her out on a second date she texted back that she really enjoyed herself and wants to see more of me, and that I'm a great guy, but she didn't feel any romantic sparks flying. She just wanted to be upfront that if we got together again it would be just as friends "for now at least."
So, been here many, many times. Normally I'd just take no for an answer and if we lived close enough take her up on her offer to be friends with no expectations. Since she lives an hour away, we'd probably just let things drift apart.
BUT... this time, just this once, I don't want to. I want to try to woo her, to change her mind about me. I've heard of this actually working in the real world, of a man actually being persistent in his attentions and winning a woman over. I've also heard far more stories of a guy being a creepy stalker jerk. I don't want to be a creepy stalker jerk.
I know she's interested in getting together again, and I think I've convinced her to not totally shut the door. Now I just need to figure out what to do next...
So here's my question: Have any of you found yourselves in this situation and managed to turn things around, or had a guy who you weren't interested in but changed your mind about him? If so, any tips on what to do/what not to do?
And in a related note, I've been hearing from women all my life that I'm a great guy but "they just don't see me that way." Not all women, but most. Has anyone ever been in that situation and figured out how to change their behavior in a positive way?
Side note: no Pick Up Artist/Mind Game tips. That's not what I'm looking for. Thanks!
Not respecting her stated desires and feelings is straight up Creepy Stalker Jerk territory, no matter how bad you want it not to be so.
posted by Sternmeyer at 9:18 AM on July 22, 2015 [36 favorites]
posted by Sternmeyer at 9:18 AM on July 22, 2015 [36 favorites]
Sorry, your plan is super creepy. When someone tells you they aren't interested in anything romantic, the only non-creepy option is to take them at their word. Otherwise you're substituting your judgement for hers, and, frankly, looking at her as an object to be won rather than an actual person with her own independent preferences and desires. Which is creepy, the end.
Pretty much every time a girlfriend of mine has had this happen to her, she's viewed the person as creepy and stalker-ish. And what was a "Hey, no romantic sparks but I'm up for being friends" became NEVER CONTACT ME AGAIN YOU HUGE CREEP, WHO I WILL NOW WARN ALL MY FRIENDS ABOUT.
I do have one friend who was pursued and it worked out, in a way, although that was more a case of "I like you a lot, but I'm not sure I should be dating anyone right now." I still thought the dude's behavior was somewhat uncool, and their relationship continues to be sort of weird, but they did end up together.
posted by rainbowbrite at 9:19 AM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Pretty much every time a girlfriend of mine has had this happen to her, she's viewed the person as creepy and stalker-ish. And what was a "Hey, no romantic sparks but I'm up for being friends" became NEVER CONTACT ME AGAIN YOU HUGE CREEP, WHO I WILL NOW WARN ALL MY FRIENDS ABOUT.
I do have one friend who was pursued and it worked out, in a way, although that was more a case of "I like you a lot, but I'm not sure I should be dating anyone right now." I still thought the dude's behavior was somewhat uncool, and their relationship continues to be sort of weird, but they did end up together.
posted by rainbowbrite at 9:19 AM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
You send one email/text: "Sure, I understand. Let me know if you'd like to change your mind - I had a great time Saturday night. Best of luck!"
And then you move on with your life, because not respecting the explicitly stated preferences of someone you just met is the very soul of creepiness.
posted by Tomorrowful at 9:22 AM on July 22, 2015 [89 favorites]
And then you move on with your life, because not respecting the explicitly stated preferences of someone you just met is the very soul of creepiness.
posted by Tomorrowful at 9:22 AM on July 22, 2015 [89 favorites]
Um, no? If she's not feeling chemistry, respect that.
She'd like to see you again, but just as friends. I've been there. Go ahead and take her up on that ONLY IF you are 100% cool (and, like, I am talking Fonzie levels of cool here, all thoughts of sticking your dick in her go off the table completely) with being friends and only just.
Next step is to invite her to casual group things. Where there will be other people present. If she's comfortable enough with your behavior/interactions to do something 1:1, let her guide those at first.
Don't see this lady again if you can't unburden yourself of a desire to date her. Right now she doesn't want that. Respect that.
I can't tell you how many times I've thought I was friends with a dude only to have him try to ramp up the romantic intimacy a few months down the line despite my extremely clear and explicit request that that not happen. Makes my damn skin crawl.
posted by phunniemee at 9:22 AM on July 22, 2015 [29 favorites]
She'd like to see you again, but just as friends. I've been there. Go ahead and take her up on that ONLY IF you are 100% cool (and, like, I am talking Fonzie levels of cool here, all thoughts of sticking your dick in her go off the table completely) with being friends and only just.
Next step is to invite her to casual group things. Where there will be other people present. If she's comfortable enough with your behavior/interactions to do something 1:1, let her guide those at first.
Don't see this lady again if you can't unburden yourself of a desire to date her. Right now she doesn't want that. Respect that.
I can't tell you how many times I've thought I was friends with a dude only to have him try to ramp up the romantic intimacy a few months down the line despite my extremely clear and explicit request that that not happen. Makes my damn skin crawl.
posted by phunniemee at 9:22 AM on July 22, 2015 [29 favorites]
It takes courage to tell someone you're not interested in them. She could easily have done the slow fade or just ignored your messages.
She told you DIRECTLY and in plain language that she doesn't view you in a romantic sense, so I'd just listen to her words and respect her wishes.
If you're hoping that you can be her friend and one day charm her into falling for you, then I suggest you look at some previous Ask-Mes.... there are MANY out there that highlight how unrewarding and destructive those kind of relationships are... and they can go on for years.
posted by JenThePro at 9:23 AM on July 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
She told you DIRECTLY and in plain language that she doesn't view you in a romantic sense, so I'd just listen to her words and respect her wishes.
If you're hoping that you can be her friend and one day charm her into falling for you, then I suggest you look at some previous Ask-Mes.... there are MANY out there that highlight how unrewarding and destructive those kind of relationships are... and they can go on for years.
posted by JenThePro at 9:23 AM on July 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
Literally, be yourself. If she's going through a divorce, she may not be looking for woo right now, at least that's how I interpret her 'for now' comment.
Any grand, sweeping gesture, especially at date #2, will likely be seen as a turnoff and possibly threatening.
Focus on getting to know her as a person and let her do the same for you. That will be the biggest factor to determine if either of you are interested in more.
posted by Twicketface at 9:23 AM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
Any grand, sweeping gesture, especially at date #2, will likely be seen as a turnoff and possibly threatening.
Focus on getting to know her as a person and let her do the same for you. That will be the biggest factor to determine if either of you are interested in more.
posted by Twicketface at 9:23 AM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
Also, I will add, if you go and successfully be friends with her for a while and you guys are just so happy together being friends, you do not earn any right to be saddlesore if and when she once again declines your affections. Women aren't girlfriend vending machines you put friendship coins into.
posted by phunniemee at 9:23 AM on July 22, 2015 [75 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 9:23 AM on July 22, 2015 [75 favorites]
If she wrote "for now at least" then I'd wait 3-6 months and contact her again asking for a date, and see how it goes. But I wouldn't "woo" here between then and now.
(I don't know why I am answering this, really, as I haven't "dated" for 20 years, but I feel people missed the "for now at least" bit).
posted by andrewcooke at 9:24 AM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
(I don't know why I am answering this, really, as I haven't "dated" for 20 years, but I feel people missed the "for now at least" bit).
posted by andrewcooke at 9:24 AM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
She just wanted to be upfront that if we got together again it would be just as friends "for now at least."
The only legit way to play this is take her at her word and hang out if you genuinely enjoy her friendly company and be the best you that you can be, period. Anything else, where you're pushing the boundaries that she already set ("not into you for now") turns into not only not a great plan but forcing her potentially to have to shut you down again at which point you will be in creep territory.
I think you're reaching, looking at "tells" like the distance she drove and the "for now" part of her communications as excuses to ignore the other very clear signals you got (crossed arms, saying "I want to be friends") and I think that is maybe understandable given your self-described dorkiness but I'm chiming in to say it's not a great idea. Put another way, she drove an hour before she knew there wasn't (for her) chemistry. I don't think you can realistically put that in the "Maybe she wants to be more than friends" column.
posted by jessamyn at 9:24 AM on July 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
The only legit way to play this is take her at her word and hang out if you genuinely enjoy her friendly company and be the best you that you can be, period. Anything else, where you're pushing the boundaries that she already set ("not into you for now") turns into not only not a great plan but forcing her potentially to have to shut you down again at which point you will be in creep territory.
I think you're reaching, looking at "tells" like the distance she drove and the "for now" part of her communications as excuses to ignore the other very clear signals you got (crossed arms, saying "I want to be friends") and I think that is maybe understandable given your self-described dorkiness but I'm chiming in to say it's not a great idea. Put another way, she drove an hour before she knew there wasn't (for her) chemistry. I don't think you can realistically put that in the "Maybe she wants to be more than friends" column.
posted by jessamyn at 9:24 AM on July 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
Please don't do this. If she is interested later, she will be in contact.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:27 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:27 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't want to be a creepy stalker jerk.
Step One, listen to a woman when she says she isn't feeling the chemistry. Respect her honesty. Let it go, man.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I tend to feel that rom com stereotypes are not a great basis for pursuing a relationship, and never will be. If I tried and she said no, then personally I'd respect her wishes and let it go rather than force her into something she's not interested in. Because -- setting aside the stalker issues for a moment -- people who enter into relationships with second doubts don't just magically lose them.
posted by zarq at 9:29 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Step One, listen to a woman when she says she isn't feeling the chemistry. Respect her honesty. Let it go, man.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I tend to feel that rom com stereotypes are not a great basis for pursuing a relationship, and never will be. If I tried and she said no, then personally I'd respect her wishes and let it go rather than force her into something she's not interested in. Because -- setting aside the stalker issues for a moment -- people who enter into relationships with second doubts don't just magically lose them.
posted by zarq at 9:29 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
BUT... this time, just this once, I don't want to. I want to try to woo her, to change her mind about me. I've heard of this actually working in the real world, of a man actually being persistent in his attentions and winning a woman over.
This is like asking if buying thousands of lottery tickets is a sound investment plan. Yes, in the real world, people have won the lottery, but it's a terrible idea. The overwhelming likelihood is that you will royally creep this woman out and waste a bunch of time and emotional resources that you could be putting into something where there's mutual chemistry.
And in a related note, I've been hearing from women all my life that I'm a great guy but "they just don't see me that way." Not all women, but most. Has anyone ever been in that situation and figured out how to change their behavior in a positive way?
This would be a good question to ask your close friends who you can trust to be blunt with you; it's kind of hard to answer on AskMe without reams of supplementary information about what you're like.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:32 AM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is like asking if buying thousands of lottery tickets is a sound investment plan. Yes, in the real world, people have won the lottery, but it's a terrible idea. The overwhelming likelihood is that you will royally creep this woman out and waste a bunch of time and emotional resources that you could be putting into something where there's mutual chemistry.
And in a related note, I've been hearing from women all my life that I'm a great guy but "they just don't see me that way." Not all women, but most. Has anyone ever been in that situation and figured out how to change their behavior in a positive way?
This would be a good question to ask your close friends who you can trust to be blunt with you; it's kind of hard to answer on AskMe without reams of supplementary information about what you're like.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:32 AM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
No. No no, no no no, no. Do not try to "convince" her to leave the door open. There is no way to do this that is not creepy and disrespectful and unworthy of the honesty and courage she showed in being straight with you about her feelings. If you genuinely are into being friends, totally without any prospect of future romantic benefit, then sure, meet her again as friends, but only if you have no secret wishes of parlaying that into more.
Otherwise, thank her for her honesty and let her know that you had a great time and would love to hear from her again if she changes her mind, and then walk away and move on with dating other people to find someone who is into you, from the start, and doesn't need to be talked into giving you a shot.
posted by Stacey at 9:34 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Otherwise, thank her for her honesty and let her know that you had a great time and would love to hear from her again if she changes her mind, and then walk away and move on with dating other people to find someone who is into you, from the start, and doesn't need to be talked into giving you a shot.
posted by Stacey at 9:34 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Someone in the middle of a divorce who spent an entire dinner with her arms crossed AND told you afterwards she felt zero chemistry is simply not ready to date, or ready to date you, and especially BOTH.
I agree you could contact her down the road for another real date, or try to build a friendship with her now where you invite her to group outings -- but not BOTH.
If you're an honest chap: "I had a fantastic time with you, and I respect your honesty. I would be delighted if our paths crossed in the future and I hope you get in touch with me down the road. Thanks for the date and the honesty. Best of luck."
Or something like that. Then you move on and forget about her. You don't sound like you can do friendship since you like like her, but go ahead and be honest right back that you hope she thinks of you in the future and gets in touch.
posted by jbenben at 9:38 AM on July 22, 2015 [47 favorites]
I agree you could contact her down the road for another real date, or try to build a friendship with her now where you invite her to group outings -- but not BOTH.
If you're an honest chap: "I had a fantastic time with you, and I respect your honesty. I would be delighted if our paths crossed in the future and I hope you get in touch with me down the road. Thanks for the date and the honesty. Best of luck."
Or something like that. Then you move on and forget about her. You don't sound like you can do friendship since you like like her, but go ahead and be honest right back that you hope she thinks of you in the future and gets in touch.
posted by jbenben at 9:38 AM on July 22, 2015 [47 favorites]
I told a man that once, and I kept it classy in much the same way she told you that she wasn't interested, and he came back to me with a whole "Why? Is it because of X? Is it because of Y? Is it because of Z? I could do ABC."
Dude. I told you why I wasn't interested. Just because you didn't like the answer doesn't mean you get a new one.
If you don't want to be a creepy stalker jerk, you should consider respecting her autonomy and not thinking you have a better answer than the one she's already formulated re: a romance with you.
posted by juniperesque at 9:38 AM on July 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
Dude. I told you why I wasn't interested. Just because you didn't like the answer doesn't mean you get a new one.
If you don't want to be a creepy stalker jerk, you should consider respecting her autonomy and not thinking you have a better answer than the one she's already formulated re: a romance with you.
posted by juniperesque at 9:38 AM on July 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
looking at "tells" like the distance she drove and the "for now" part of her communications as excuses to ignore the other very clear signals you got (crossed arms, saying "I want to be friends") and I think that is maybe understandable given your self-described dorkiness but I'm chiming in to say it's not a great idea. Put another way, she drove an hour before she knew there wasn't (for her) chemistry.
I'm seeing this as very "throwing a bone" type behavior and not wanting to upset anybody by flat-out saying "no", which is quite a common occurrence. I wouldn't take that "for now" at face value as an opening for anything. I actually kind of think she drove an hour and refused to let you do so just to keep anybody from feeling like she owed anybody anything for the trouble they went through.
So, I pretty much agree with everyone, with the added stipulation that if anything is ever going to progress any further, it needs to be begun by her. If you can truly abandon any notion of pursuit and still maintain contact, then that's great. If you're contacting her more than say, once every couple weeks, I'd think you're failing at that and still have too much invested. If you're in her area, you can probably see if she wants to get a coffee or something, but anything beyond that is probably too date-y. If, after some time of such contact, she actually develops romantic notions about you, that's great. But you have to be super-zen and just let it go and not expect or want for anything to happen, and you're probably better off pursuing other interests to not get hung up on this, because it certainly seems like it's not really going to go anywhere. I think she took a flyer on meeting you, but it's not really going to be a thing.
posted by LionIndex at 9:38 AM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
I'm seeing this as very "throwing a bone" type behavior and not wanting to upset anybody by flat-out saying "no", which is quite a common occurrence. I wouldn't take that "for now" at face value as an opening for anything. I actually kind of think she drove an hour and refused to let you do so just to keep anybody from feeling like she owed anybody anything for the trouble they went through.
So, I pretty much agree with everyone, with the added stipulation that if anything is ever going to progress any further, it needs to be begun by her. If you can truly abandon any notion of pursuit and still maintain contact, then that's great. If you're contacting her more than say, once every couple weeks, I'd think you're failing at that and still have too much invested. If you're in her area, you can probably see if she wants to get a coffee or something, but anything beyond that is probably too date-y. If, after some time of such contact, she actually develops romantic notions about you, that's great. But you have to be super-zen and just let it go and not expect or want for anything to happen, and you're probably better off pursuing other interests to not get hung up on this, because it certainly seems like it's not really going to go anywhere. I think she took a flyer on meeting you, but it's not really going to be a thing.
posted by LionIndex at 9:38 AM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
had a guy who you weren't interested in but changed your mind about him
Nope. Any efforts like you're suggesting only deepened my antipathy and added revulsion to it.
I've been hearing from women all my life that I'm a great guy but "they just don't see me that way." Not all women, but most. Has anyone ever been in that situation and figured out how to change their behavior in a positive way?
I'm close to someone who felt similarly, tore himself up about it for years. He wound up meeting someone who likes him and his behaviour the way they are.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:44 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nope. Any efforts like you're suggesting only deepened my antipathy and added revulsion to it.
I've been hearing from women all my life that I'm a great guy but "they just don't see me that way." Not all women, but most. Has anyone ever been in that situation and figured out how to change their behavior in a positive way?
I'm close to someone who felt similarly, tore himself up about it for years. He wound up meeting someone who likes him and his behaviour the way they are.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:44 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
The overwhelming likelihood is that you will royally creep this woman out and waste a bunch of time and emotional resources that you could be putting into something where there's mutual chemistry.
Yes. I think a lot of women have a "That Guy" story. You know, a story about that one guy (or unfortunately, in some or many cases more than one) who stalkerishly creeped them out. The guy who selfishly tried to pressure them into dating or sex even after they had clearly said 'no' and said they weren't interested. The guy who was so clueless he didn't understand what "not interested" meant. The one whose persistence made them feel unsafe.
Don't be That Guy.
"Not now" means "not now." It's not an invitation.
posted by zarq at 9:44 AM on July 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yes. I think a lot of women have a "That Guy" story. You know, a story about that one guy (or unfortunately, in some or many cases more than one) who stalkerishly creeped them out. The guy who selfishly tried to pressure them into dating or sex even after they had clearly said 'no' and said they weren't interested. The guy who was so clueless he didn't understand what "not interested" meant. The one whose persistence made them feel unsafe.
Don't be That Guy.
"Not now" means "not now." It's not an invitation.
posted by zarq at 9:44 AM on July 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
No. She's not into you. There is no way to do this that isn't creepy. No. No no no no no. NO.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:45 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:45 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Normally I would say no, leave her alone, don't be a creepy stalker. But, she did leave a door open with the "for now," and I have never used the "for now" unless I could see a tiny bit of potential.
I have no idea what her thoughts are - whether she is genuinely open or just letting you down nicely.
You might as well spend a month getting in better shape and dressing better. You can always improve yourself. And then you could ask her out for something low key like a hike or something that isn't super date-y and see if anything changes but let her do the leading on that.
Since you say you have a great personality and are funny and it seems like she genuinely enjoyed your company, my guess would be the lack of sparks are due to physical appearances. That's how it always is for my personal sample size of one, any way.
posted by umwhat at 9:46 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I have no idea what her thoughts are - whether she is genuinely open or just letting you down nicely.
You might as well spend a month getting in better shape and dressing better. You can always improve yourself. And then you could ask her out for something low key like a hike or something that isn't super date-y and see if anything changes but let her do the leading on that.
Since you say you have a great personality and are funny and it seems like she genuinely enjoyed your company, my guess would be the lack of sparks are due to physical appearances. That's how it always is for my personal sample size of one, any way.
posted by umwhat at 9:46 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Please don't read too much into the "for now at least" part of her communication, especially in light of all of the other very clear and direct statements that she is not interested in you. It's damn hard to tell someone you aren't interested in them; odds are that the "for now" part was simply meant to soften the blow - not at all to encourage you to hold out hope for later.
To put it bluntly: She doesn't care that you've been 'good' and respectful of women all the other times they've turned you down - that doesn't buy you the right to try to push past this woman's boundaries, even if it is "just this once."
posted by DingoMutt at 9:46 AM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
To put it bluntly: She doesn't care that you've been 'good' and respectful of women all the other times they've turned you down - that doesn't buy you the right to try to push past this woman's boundaries, even if it is "just this once."
posted by DingoMutt at 9:46 AM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
I just had a guy try this with several emails and texts and "But you're so cool" type stuff and it all just turned me off more and more and more. Like when I thought there was no more floor to how little respect I ended up having for him, there was more floor.
I wouldn't be friends with her either, because it sounds like you only want to so you can work on the woo. I did the friends with guys thing too and it just made me feel bad in a different way because I knew they were interested in more.
posted by sweetkid at 9:47 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I wouldn't be friends with her either, because it sounds like you only want to so you can work on the woo. I did the friends with guys thing too and it just made me feel bad in a different way because I knew they were interested in more.
posted by sweetkid at 9:47 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've heard of this actually working in the real world, of a man actually being persistent in his attentions and winning a woman over.
There are basically two situations where this might happen in the real world:
1) You are perfectly happy with just being her friend, because you take her at her word and assume that it is impossible for people to change other people: the only thing you can change is your own attitude, not hers. You both continue to date other people, while you hang out as friends, doing non-date-like and platonic activities, without any expectation whatsoever of becoming more. If it happens, it happens; if it doesn't, it doesn't.
2) You pressure her until she caves. It's exhausting to keep saying "no" over and over, especially in a society where women are socialized to believe that their role is to make others happy, to never reject anyone, to never be the bad guy. Even if she doesn't agree to date you in this hypothetical situation, hanging out as friends with someone who claims they "just want to be friends" but whose behavior shows they want more has this same effect--a constant pressure, a balancing act. Not worth it.
You're not in situation #1. Don't make this into situation #2.
posted by capricorn at 9:56 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
There are basically two situations where this might happen in the real world:
1) You are perfectly happy with just being her friend, because you take her at her word and assume that it is impossible for people to change other people: the only thing you can change is your own attitude, not hers. You both continue to date other people, while you hang out as friends, doing non-date-like and platonic activities, without any expectation whatsoever of becoming more. If it happens, it happens; if it doesn't, it doesn't.
2) You pressure her until she caves. It's exhausting to keep saying "no" over and over, especially in a society where women are socialized to believe that their role is to make others happy, to never reject anyone, to never be the bad guy. Even if she doesn't agree to date you in this hypothetical situation, hanging out as friends with someone who claims they "just want to be friends" but whose behavior shows they want more has this same effect--a constant pressure, a balancing act. Not worth it.
You're not in situation #1. Don't make this into situation #2.
posted by capricorn at 9:56 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: The addendum of "for now at least" is, at least when I'm the one delivering it, nothing more than a rote recitation of socialized deference (a 'talent' I've been instructed in since birth due to being born female). Because as it turns out, some dudes -- even dudes who have, until that moment, seemed perfectly nice -- get terrifyingly angry if you try to close that door once and for all. So when I'm presented with the choice, I'll always take the willful ignorance of the dude who won't take a hint over the possibility of enraging someone who might start yelling or behaving in a threatening way. Softening your tone when you'd much rather be direct is, for many women, nothing more than a kneejerk self-defense mechanism.
Please, take no for an answer. Actually listening to women when they speak (as opposed to only hearing what you want to hear) is a foolproof way to ensure you won't seem like a creepy weirdo. Men who try to push past "no" are boundary-breakers and boundary-breakers often escalate from words to actions. Insisting that a woman means "maybe" when she says "no" is an indication that there are other boundaries in her life you will interpret as permeable, malleable, bendable to your will. So when a woman says "no," wish her well and leave her be. No exceptions.
w/r/t the rest of your queries, if you, like me, are a moderately successful, well-kept, and otherwise fairly decent human being but you're also kind of euphemistically funny-looking -- as you put it, "not really what you'd call handsome or athletic" -- that last part is going to be a dealbreaker until you find the rare bird for whom it isn't. Like, I'm an ugly person. Some of my closest friends have referred to my face as "an acquired taste." So believe me when I say that you can think you're doing everything "right" on paper, when you're physically unattractive, you just have to deal with rejections born from that unattractiveness by yourself, on your own terms, because there isn't a lot you can do to change that aspect of your existence.
Inner confidence that manifests as a strong, unwavering sense of self has been able to open a lot of doors in my life that my ugliness would have otherwise keep shut, but it can't open all of them, and no matter what, you cannot will another person to be physically attracted to you. It's a bummer to get that speech, I know, but there's just no way around it.
posted by divined by radio at 9:57 AM on July 22, 2015 [36 favorites]
Please, take no for an answer. Actually listening to women when they speak (as opposed to only hearing what you want to hear) is a foolproof way to ensure you won't seem like a creepy weirdo. Men who try to push past "no" are boundary-breakers and boundary-breakers often escalate from words to actions. Insisting that a woman means "maybe" when she says "no" is an indication that there are other boundaries in her life you will interpret as permeable, malleable, bendable to your will. So when a woman says "no," wish her well and leave her be. No exceptions.
w/r/t the rest of your queries, if you, like me, are a moderately successful, well-kept, and otherwise fairly decent human being but you're also kind of euphemistically funny-looking -- as you put it, "not really what you'd call handsome or athletic" -- that last part is going to be a dealbreaker until you find the rare bird for whom it isn't. Like, I'm an ugly person. Some of my closest friends have referred to my face as "an acquired taste." So believe me when I say that you can think you're doing everything "right" on paper, when you're physically unattractive, you just have to deal with rejections born from that unattractiveness by yourself, on your own terms, because there isn't a lot you can do to change that aspect of your existence.
Inner confidence that manifests as a strong, unwavering sense of self has been able to open a lot of doors in my life that my ugliness would have otherwise keep shut, but it can't open all of them, and no matter what, you cannot will another person to be physically attracted to you. It's a bummer to get that speech, I know, but there's just no way around it.
posted by divined by radio at 9:57 AM on July 22, 2015 [36 favorites]
How about taking her at her word and not trying to "woo" her? Getting to know her as a friend the way she said she wants to rather than a "potential girlfriend"?
Hey, maybe you'll find out after hanging out as friends for a while that you know what, you maybe weren't that good a match anyway, and you'll be able to just go ahead and be friends without that weird icky "we used to date and now it's awkward" stuff getting in the way. Or maybe something will develop after all. But the only way that either of those things will happen is if you let go of your own "maybe I can win her over someday" agenda and listen to what she expressly has said she prefers.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:59 AM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Hey, maybe you'll find out after hanging out as friends for a while that you know what, you maybe weren't that good a match anyway, and you'll be able to just go ahead and be friends without that weird icky "we used to date and now it's awkward" stuff getting in the way. Or maybe something will develop after all. But the only way that either of those things will happen is if you let go of your own "maybe I can win her over someday" agenda and listen to what she expressly has said she prefers.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:59 AM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Best answer:
The only one you can reasonably hope to change is yourself. Are you physically fit, well-groomed, and hygienic? Are you always respectful, kind, and friendly? Do you listen to people and ask them questions and remember what they say? Are there things going on in your life that are causing you a lot of negative energy that people you seek to date might be picking up on? All of these questions will yield suggestions for self-improvement that will absolutely make you a better, more desirable dating partner. And they are actually within your control.
posted by deathpanels at 10:02 AM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
And in a related note, I've been hearing from women all my life that I'm a great guy but "they just don't see me that way." Not all women, but most. Has anyone ever been in that situation and figured out how to change their behavior in a positive way?That is exactly the raison d'etre of the PUA people. If someone doesn't want to date you and your goal is to directly change their behavior, you are walking into PUA territory. I get what you're saying, you don't want to deceive anyone, but I just want to issue a warning here, as there are far too many dark holes on the internet that seek to lure frustrated single guys into this mindset.
Side note: no Pick Up Artist/Mind Game tips. That's not what I'm looking for. Thanks!
The only one you can reasonably hope to change is yourself. Are you physically fit, well-groomed, and hygienic? Are you always respectful, kind, and friendly? Do you listen to people and ask them questions and remember what they say? Are there things going on in your life that are causing you a lot of negative energy that people you seek to date might be picking up on? All of these questions will yield suggestions for self-improvement that will absolutely make you a better, more desirable dating partner. And they are actually within your control.
posted by deathpanels at 10:02 AM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
You may or may not have a shot at "wooing" this lady (almost definitely not) but for goodness sake please take a long hard look at your dignity and whether you value it or not. You are debasing both her and yourself by thinking about perusing this. You are not respecting her decision, and more importantly, you are assigning value to her company that is in no way justified.
Move on, there are 7 billion people on this earth.
posted by FakeFreyja at 10:04 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Move on, there are 7 billion people on this earth.
posted by FakeFreyja at 10:04 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Don't be that dude who confuses politeness with a glimmer of hope. If she wants to stay in touch, let it be her choice.
Letting someone make their own life choices is a far more attractive trait than wanting to bully them into liking you (clue: you cannot bully/persuade/stalk anyone into liking you - au contraire).
In the meantime, stop romanticising the evening before you blow the encounter up to mythical proportions. She's just one lady (and in this case it just didn't work out).
posted by kariebookish at 10:10 AM on July 22, 2015
Letting someone make their own life choices is a far more attractive trait than wanting to bully them into liking you (clue: you cannot bully/persuade/stalk anyone into liking you - au contraire).
In the meantime, stop romanticising the evening before you blow the encounter up to mythical proportions. She's just one lady (and in this case it just didn't work out).
posted by kariebookish at 10:10 AM on July 22, 2015
I've been the woman in this situation before. You should not try to pursue her romantically either explicitly or by saying you want to be friends but actually having another agenda. This would likely just make her uncomfortable/make her dislike you.
I disagree with the advice to tell her to let you know if she changes her mind though. This makes it more unlikely for her to contact you in the future if it is really a case of not seeing romantic potential right now (as opposed to knowing that she never would). If she has a change of heart it's not going to be from 'not wanting to date you' to 'wanting to date you', it's going to be from 'not wanting to date you' to 'wanting to get to know you a little better'. If you tell her "it was great meeting you, thanks for your honesty, let me know if you change your mind!", it makes it harder for her to get in touch in a more casual low expectations way, if it turns out she actually does want to later.
Just say thanks, and that you appreciate her honesty and that you do like her as a potential friend too (which it seems like you do) and to let you know in the future if she's in your area and wants to get together (or whatever). And then don't contact her. Let her get in touch if she wants to.
posted by thdavis at 10:16 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
I disagree with the advice to tell her to let you know if she changes her mind though. This makes it more unlikely for her to contact you in the future if it is really a case of not seeing romantic potential right now (as opposed to knowing that she never would). If she has a change of heart it's not going to be from 'not wanting to date you' to 'wanting to date you', it's going to be from 'not wanting to date you' to 'wanting to get to know you a little better'. If you tell her "it was great meeting you, thanks for your honesty, let me know if you change your mind!", it makes it harder for her to get in touch in a more casual low expectations way, if it turns out she actually does want to later.
Just say thanks, and that you appreciate her honesty and that you do like her as a potential friend too (which it seems like you do) and to let you know in the future if she's in your area and wants to get together (or whatever). And then don't contact her. Let her get in touch if she wants to.
posted by thdavis at 10:16 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Also, while you may not be able to change certain aspects of your body, you can definitely change your presentation. Invest in a new wardrobe that flatters your body. Get a nice haircut. Wear clothes that feel like "you." Your appearance isn't an immutable facet of your existence.
posted by deathpanels at 10:22 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by deathpanels at 10:22 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you everyone for your blunt honesty. I think perhaps I may have been more artful in phrasing my question, but I tried to keep it brief(ish). I did just want to head off one line of advice: I have no intention of trying to be friends with a woman while harboring a secret agenda. Did that in my 20s, it never ended well, and I've learned my lessons. If she and I became friends, it would be with no expectations on my part. The only reason I probably wouldn't try to be friends with her is because, as I mentioned above, we live an hour apart and it probably just wouldn't happen.
posted by rkriger at 10:23 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by rkriger at 10:23 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
There have been very rare occasions when I have changed my mind about someone after initially not feeling any chemistry, but that has been when I have got to know them as a friend and there has been zero pressure. If they had been all over me trying to make me change my mind, I'm afraid this would have had the opposite effect - I would have found them creepy and cut off contact.
If you're genuinely happy to just be friends, do so and don't ever mention the possibility of romance. If she changes her mind, she'll let you know. If you think being friends will be too difficult, then just let it go. You can't win em all, etc.
posted by intensitymultiply at 10:26 AM on July 22, 2015
If you're genuinely happy to just be friends, do so and don't ever mention the possibility of romance. If she changes her mind, she'll let you know. If you think being friends will be too difficult, then just let it go. You can't win em all, etc.
posted by intensitymultiply at 10:26 AM on July 22, 2015
I'm adding to the pile-on that no, you shouldn't pursue this. It isn't creepy to WANT to woo this woman, but it would be creepy to actually try.
I think the "for now, at least" line is a sloppy attempt on her part to assuage your feelings. Many women find it very very difficult to turn down romantic overtures and when they do get the courage to do it, they'll make ill-advised efforts to protect the guy's feelings.
Give your dating profile a little face-lift and try again with someone else. I'm sorry, dating is really hard.
posted by cakelite at 10:26 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think the "for now, at least" line is a sloppy attempt on her part to assuage your feelings. Many women find it very very difficult to turn down romantic overtures and when they do get the courage to do it, they'll make ill-advised efforts to protect the guy's feelings.
Give your dating profile a little face-lift and try again with someone else. I'm sorry, dating is really hard.
posted by cakelite at 10:26 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I don't know a single couple in which both parties met on the first date and were like, YES this is IT!
You've had very limited contact so far, and you acknowledge that you got along well and that she'd going through a difficult period. Please feel free to ignore the people speaking up and telling you that you're a creep if you don't back off and leave the ball in this woman's court. To overwork that analogy, you can feel free to place the ball in her court a couple times in the future and let her know it's there very casually. That's not only respectful of her needs--she didn't tell you to fuck off, she's not interested, she said let's be friends--it allows you to get to know one another beyond first impressions. So be friends! See where it goes! The creepy part comes in if/when she tells you that she's not going to do anything with that ball in her court and you keep tossing it back there.
My quick example: my partner (of almost a decade) lost my number after I gave it to him. He had no idea how to get back in touch with me, but he knew where I worked. After debating it for days internally and with his friends--who unanimously told him to forget about me because going to my work before calling me would be creepy and weird--he called my work, asked if he could speak with me, and then explained his dilemma to me. I will never forget that, and it gave me one of the biggest heartswells of my life.
Had I told him, no, please don't call me at work anymore and that was weird, then further attempts would have been... weird. But I didn't! Whaddya know!
I feel like I say this all the time, but keep in mind that when you ask the internet a relationship question, the audience self-selects. Self-selection on the internet does not tend to produce a widely representative view of... anything, really. You know how to be respectful, and you know how to be social. There is a huge gulf of overlap between those two. Be mindfulof that, and good luck.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 10:28 AM on July 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
You've had very limited contact so far, and you acknowledge that you got along well and that she'd going through a difficult period. Please feel free to ignore the people speaking up and telling you that you're a creep if you don't back off and leave the ball in this woman's court. To overwork that analogy, you can feel free to place the ball in her court a couple times in the future and let her know it's there very casually. That's not only respectful of her needs--she didn't tell you to fuck off, she's not interested, she said let's be friends--it allows you to get to know one another beyond first impressions. So be friends! See where it goes! The creepy part comes in if/when she tells you that she's not going to do anything with that ball in her court and you keep tossing it back there.
My quick example: my partner (of almost a decade) lost my number after I gave it to him. He had no idea how to get back in touch with me, but he knew where I worked. After debating it for days internally and with his friends--who unanimously told him to forget about me because going to my work before calling me would be creepy and weird--he called my work, asked if he could speak with me, and then explained his dilemma to me. I will never forget that, and it gave me one of the biggest heartswells of my life.
Had I told him, no, please don't call me at work anymore and that was weird, then further attempts would have been... weird. But I didn't! Whaddya know!
I feel like I say this all the time, but keep in mind that when you ask the internet a relationship question, the audience self-selects. Self-selection on the internet does not tend to produce a widely representative view of... anything, really. You know how to be respectful, and you know how to be social. There is a huge gulf of overlap between those two. Be mindfulof that, and good luck.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 10:28 AM on July 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
I've been on dates where a woman is into me, so I know what that looks like. This was kind of the opposite. The conversation flowed and we both clearly enjoyed ourselves, but for much of the date her arms were crossed and she wasn't making eye contact.
Because the main question has been answered, I wanted to mention that it's really great that you're aware of this kind of stuff, because a lot of guys aren't, and it's really important data for making sure you aren't behaving like a creep (i.e. pursuing someone who's made it clear that they aren't interested, even if it's only nonverbally).
posted by randomnity at 10:30 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Because the main question has been answered, I wanted to mention that it's really great that you're aware of this kind of stuff, because a lot of guys aren't, and it's really important data for making sure you aren't behaving like a creep (i.e. pursuing someone who's made it clear that they aren't interested, even if it's only nonverbally).
posted by randomnity at 10:30 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Every time I read one of these questions and the unambiguous "don't even consider it you stalker!" responses, I am reminded of my parents' four happy decades together (not to mention my own existence and that of my sister). My mom loves telling stories about what a nuisance my dad was initially.
Two points:
(1) No one can force another person to change his/her mind. Efforts to do so are morally wrong.
(2) People change. No one's opinions remain eternally static.
Browbeating, arm-twisting, badgering (insert relevant synonyms here), are wrong. The OP is clearly aware of that. People have changed their minds without coercion in the past and I find it unlikely that such changes are impossible in the future.
posted by Octaviuz at 10:31 AM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
Two points:
(1) No one can force another person to change his/her mind. Efforts to do so are morally wrong.
(2) People change. No one's opinions remain eternally static.
Browbeating, arm-twisting, badgering (insert relevant synonyms here), are wrong. The OP is clearly aware of that. People have changed their minds without coercion in the past and I find it unlikely that such changes are impossible in the future.
posted by Octaviuz at 10:31 AM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
Best answer: All I can speak to is my own personal experience.
Regarding dating people for whom I felt no initial chemistry: I have gone on these dates. Multiple dates. One guy I let it drag on for 3 months because he was so darn pleasant and kind and our interests overlapped and he was so clearly on Team Hooray For Pammeke. But in the end I broke it off with each of them, and I know that - despite my most earnest wish to give guys who are perfectly lovely but don't float my boat a chance (or several chances) - the ones who didn't get past the first date suffered less than the ones who I kept trying to feel something for. In a way, this woman has done you a kindness and expressed a level of self-awareness that my desire to not be (in my eyes or anyone else's) shallow led me to cause more harm than good. While I have found it possible to turn my own feeling of "gosh I've never thought of you that way before, but my goodness now that you've expressed an interest boy does my tummy feel funny" into a relationship, I have not found it possible to turn my feeling of "I do not want to date you" into a relationship.
Regarding dating during a divorce: I found that I was simply not ready to date until well over a year afterward. I was heart-wounded and associated everyone who tried to date me (or who I tried to date) during that period of time with the divorce. HMMV.
posted by pammeke at 10:42 AM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Regarding dating people for whom I felt no initial chemistry: I have gone on these dates. Multiple dates. One guy I let it drag on for 3 months because he was so darn pleasant and kind and our interests overlapped and he was so clearly on Team Hooray For Pammeke. But in the end I broke it off with each of them, and I know that - despite my most earnest wish to give guys who are perfectly lovely but don't float my boat a chance (or several chances) - the ones who didn't get past the first date suffered less than the ones who I kept trying to feel something for. In a way, this woman has done you a kindness and expressed a level of self-awareness that my desire to not be (in my eyes or anyone else's) shallow led me to cause more harm than good. While I have found it possible to turn my own feeling of "gosh I've never thought of you that way before, but my goodness now that you've expressed an interest boy does my tummy feel funny" into a relationship, I have not found it possible to turn my feeling of "I do not want to date you" into a relationship.
Regarding dating during a divorce: I found that I was simply not ready to date until well over a year afterward. I was heart-wounded and associated everyone who tried to date me (or who I tried to date) during that period of time with the divorce. HMMV.
posted by pammeke at 10:42 AM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Best answer: I once went on a few dates with a girl who actually was hoping that I would try to woo her over, as she wasn't quite feeling the chemistry, but was open to the idea. She was "rooting for me," is how she put it (it feels so demeaning to think about that in retrospect). So, I put some effort into it, did a few things that were beyond the norm. I look back on that as serious period of wasted time. I should have cordially parted company and abandoned any expectations for more, as I think fabricating interest is much, much less likely to work than it happening naturally.
One thing that made me feel conflicted is that I do know that sometimes friendships turn into more. My mom thought not much of my dad when they first met, and now they've been married for 42 years. I think the realization for me is that if you ever feel like there's a dance, monkey, dance feel to it that is either coming from you or from her in order to make her think better of you, it's not a solid foundation for anything. If something is going to happen, it's not because you were Super Date Man. It's because of other parts of you that have to do with your personality and character that make more meaningful connections. Only a smaller part of this is what you try to do in a romantic sense.
I do think that doing romantic things can be a catalyst for deeper intimacy, but if you are getting into performance territory so that someone is impressed by the performance itself, it doesn't carry enough information to know whether or not someone ought to be wooed by you at all. Also, it tends to work within a context of wanting this kind of wooing to be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. You shouldn't go into a friendship, and one that is explicitly stated as such by her, with an expectation to perform romantically when there is nothing else already there. It could be that she's seeing if things turn into more than friendship, but you should not expect this nor be planning to engineer it. You should let her steer the boat on this one regarding whether there ever is (and it may be never) a deeper connection before letting anything escalate. Any other approach will almost certainly lead to disappointment if you can't be happy with the idea that you may only stay friends.
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:51 AM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
One thing that made me feel conflicted is that I do know that sometimes friendships turn into more. My mom thought not much of my dad when they first met, and now they've been married for 42 years. I think the realization for me is that if you ever feel like there's a dance, monkey, dance feel to it that is either coming from you or from her in order to make her think better of you, it's not a solid foundation for anything. If something is going to happen, it's not because you were Super Date Man. It's because of other parts of you that have to do with your personality and character that make more meaningful connections. Only a smaller part of this is what you try to do in a romantic sense.
I do think that doing romantic things can be a catalyst for deeper intimacy, but if you are getting into performance territory so that someone is impressed by the performance itself, it doesn't carry enough information to know whether or not someone ought to be wooed by you at all. Also, it tends to work within a context of wanting this kind of wooing to be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. You shouldn't go into a friendship, and one that is explicitly stated as such by her, with an expectation to perform romantically when there is nothing else already there. It could be that she's seeing if things turn into more than friendship, but you should not expect this nor be planning to engineer it. You should let her steer the boat on this one regarding whether there ever is (and it may be never) a deeper connection before letting anything escalate. Any other approach will almost certainly lead to disappointment if you can't be happy with the idea that you may only stay friends.
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:51 AM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Go for it.
I had a guy I didn't feel chemistry with, and he kept after me under the guise of friendship, and then I fell madly in love with him.
You have nothing to lose here. Wait a couple of weeks and then contact her to say you'll be in her area on XYZ date and would she like to go to ABC concert/lecture/play/etc. with you? Pretend you're just being friends (but of course pay for her meal and treat her to an awesome night and demostrate your value).
Women are more content-driven than men and, assuming you're not a hideous troll, she may very well come around. Chance is less than 80% but at least 10% if she meant what she said about liking you as a person.
posted by Guinevere at 10:52 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I had a guy I didn't feel chemistry with, and he kept after me under the guise of friendship, and then I fell madly in love with him.
You have nothing to lose here. Wait a couple of weeks and then contact her to say you'll be in her area on XYZ date and would she like to go to ABC concert/lecture/play/etc. with you? Pretend you're just being friends (but of course pay for her meal and treat her to an awesome night and demostrate your value).
Women are more content-driven than men and, assuming you're not a hideous troll, she may very well come around. Chance is less than 80% but at least 10% if she meant what she said about liking you as a person.
posted by Guinevere at 10:52 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: "Have any of you found yourselves in this situation and managed to turn things around, or had a guy who you weren't interested in but changed your mind about him?"
Yes, exactly once. I'm a woman about your age who was, a long time ago, lukewarm-ish about feeling physically attracted to a sweet, respectful guy I went on a few dates with in the 90s. Then, a few months later, I had the chance to watch his ska band play, and WOW. Saw a whole new, talented side to him, and I suddenly really wanted him. Sadly, he had already moved on by then, but I digress.
You are a performer. Invite her to come see you do your stand-up comedy routine sometime. All is not lost. Bear in mind that she is divorcing and won't be truly available for awhile. Remain cordial.
posted by hush at 10:55 AM on July 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
Yes, exactly once. I'm a woman about your age who was, a long time ago, lukewarm-ish about feeling physically attracted to a sweet, respectful guy I went on a few dates with in the 90s. Then, a few months later, I had the chance to watch his ska band play, and WOW. Saw a whole new, talented side to him, and I suddenly really wanted him. Sadly, he had already moved on by then, but I digress.
You are a performer. Invite her to come see you do your stand-up comedy routine sometime. All is not lost. Bear in mind that she is divorcing and won't be truly available for awhile. Remain cordial.
posted by hush at 10:55 AM on July 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
Best answer: You know, this is dangerous territory and it is entirely possible everyone else is right and this is a big fat NOPE. I have been through a divorce and I have been in situations where I liked a man but could not offer a relationship in the here and now. Here are some things that would have kept the door open to maybe later:
1. Realize I am a whole person. I am not just an object to desire. Try to get to know me as a whole person and relate to me as a whole person. It is a good way to honor the "just friends, at least for now" request, assuming she really meant that and wasn't just trying to politely blow you off.
2. Understand that my divorce and personal situation are complicated and it is going to take the time it takes. I am not lying to you, dissembling or jerking you around. If you express annoyance at how inconvenient this is for you, I will stop giving you any of my time. I do not care how subtly you express that. Deep sighs or eyerolls or anything of that ilk will be met with extreme measures to remove you from my life post haste. If I am talking to you about my long, drawn out, pain in the ass divorce, I am trusting you. The appropriate response is to be respectful, compassionate and sympathetic. If you cannot do that, you aren't really my friend and I will stop putting up with your manipulative bullshit.
3. Realize that I have been with the same man a long time and letting someone new in is hard, especially while the divorce is still on-going.
4. So, you think I am gorgeous. Please be aware that you aren't the first man who thought I was gorgeous and thus wanted to stick their dick in me. You get zero points for this and I will be quick to be a bitch about it if you mishandle this. Be the one man who makes me feel good about my body, not the umpteenth asshole that thinks I am required to put out because Mr. Willy responds positively to how I look. Most men not only act like I should be happy to be raped or otherwise treated as just a sex object, on top of that, they are quick to make me feel like shit about any perceived deficits in my appearance, such as my stomach not being flat enough or my hair being too short. Don't do this to me. I am so fucking tired of this shit and I will be so happy to give you a hard time over it. Find something nice to say that will make me feel good or keep your big fat mouth shut.
5. Be aware that studies show women are typically slower than men to get to the point of having romantic, bonding type feels. Spend time with me. Do not rush me. And if I get to the point where I am feeling those things, be the first man in my life to not promptly turn into an egomaniacal jackass the instant you feel you won, conquest done, damn you are good. K? Thanks.
posted by Michele in California at 10:57 AM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
1. Realize I am a whole person. I am not just an object to desire. Try to get to know me as a whole person and relate to me as a whole person. It is a good way to honor the "just friends, at least for now" request, assuming she really meant that and wasn't just trying to politely blow you off.
2. Understand that my divorce and personal situation are complicated and it is going to take the time it takes. I am not lying to you, dissembling or jerking you around. If you express annoyance at how inconvenient this is for you, I will stop giving you any of my time. I do not care how subtly you express that. Deep sighs or eyerolls or anything of that ilk will be met with extreme measures to remove you from my life post haste. If I am talking to you about my long, drawn out, pain in the ass divorce, I am trusting you. The appropriate response is to be respectful, compassionate and sympathetic. If you cannot do that, you aren't really my friend and I will stop putting up with your manipulative bullshit.
3. Realize that I have been with the same man a long time and letting someone new in is hard, especially while the divorce is still on-going.
4. So, you think I am gorgeous. Please be aware that you aren't the first man who thought I was gorgeous and thus wanted to stick their dick in me. You get zero points for this and I will be quick to be a bitch about it if you mishandle this. Be the one man who makes me feel good about my body, not the umpteenth asshole that thinks I am required to put out because Mr. Willy responds positively to how I look. Most men not only act like I should be happy to be raped or otherwise treated as just a sex object, on top of that, they are quick to make me feel like shit about any perceived deficits in my appearance, such as my stomach not being flat enough or my hair being too short. Don't do this to me. I am so fucking tired of this shit and I will be so happy to give you a hard time over it. Find something nice to say that will make me feel good or keep your big fat mouth shut.
5. Be aware that studies show women are typically slower than men to get to the point of having romantic, bonding type feels. Spend time with me. Do not rush me. And if I get to the point where I am feeling those things, be the first man in my life to not promptly turn into an egomaniacal jackass the instant you feel you won, conquest done, damn you are good. K? Thanks.
posted by Michele in California at 10:57 AM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
Best answer: Years ago, I met a truly nice guy, a friend of a friend who apparently had a bit of a crush on me from afar. Conversation flowed with ease, we had a lot of laughs, and I found myself completely comfortable around him. But I didn't want to date him. There were no sparks and I was enjoying being single after being in a LTR for a few years. We were at different places in life, both personally and professionally. But he was a sweetheart, so I gave him a shot. We ended up dating for a few weeks until I finally called it off. I told him we should remain friends.
Truth is, I did honestly want to be his friend. And we did continue to hang out. And there was absolutely no pressure from him to take things further. He made zero mention of us possibly dating again. Zero. He completely respected my "No, I don't want to date you" stance, behaved like a friend, and proved himself to be a solid, reliable person. And over the next little while, a little voice inside me kept bugging me to give him another chance. I eventually fell in love with the guy and nine years later, every day is even better than the one before.
So yeah, it can happen, but it has to be on her terms. Had my SO kept pressuring me to date him after my initial rejection, he would be a mere footnote in my dating history. The fact that he didn't do that told me he was someone who would respect me and my boundaries.
Good luck.
posted by futureisunwritten at 11:01 AM on July 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
Truth is, I did honestly want to be his friend. And we did continue to hang out. And there was absolutely no pressure from him to take things further. He made zero mention of us possibly dating again. Zero. He completely respected my "No, I don't want to date you" stance, behaved like a friend, and proved himself to be a solid, reliable person. And over the next little while, a little voice inside me kept bugging me to give him another chance. I eventually fell in love with the guy and nine years later, every day is even better than the one before.
So yeah, it can happen, but it has to be on her terms. Had my SO kept pressuring me to date him after my initial rejection, he would be a mere footnote in my dating history. The fact that he didn't do that told me he was someone who would respect me and my boundaries.
Good luck.
posted by futureisunwritten at 11:01 AM on July 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
I forgot to answer the main question. The answer is yes, I have changed my mind about someone I wasn't previously romantically interested in. The way it happened was just spending time together as friends without any other expectations. Even though he also had a crush on me (I think) it wasn't awkward and he genuinely liked being friends with me and I genuinely liked being friends with him. We didn't end up dating for other reasons but I have experienced that change of heart.
It sounds like you are not doing anything wrong in that area in general. It sounds like you are good at being friends in a genuine way without expectations of anything else. I think it's harder with online dating though because you don't have the same ease of getting to know someone over time and in non-date situations or non one-on-one situations the way you often do when you meet someone in other contexts.
posted by thdavis at 11:08 AM on July 22, 2015
It sounds like you are not doing anything wrong in that area in general. It sounds like you are good at being friends in a genuine way without expectations of anything else. I think it's harder with online dating though because you don't have the same ease of getting to know someone over time and in non-date situations or non one-on-one situations the way you often do when you meet someone in other contexts.
posted by thdavis at 11:08 AM on July 22, 2015
There are many wonderful women out there, so you are truly not missing out if one of them does not like you.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:32 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ironmouth at 11:32 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I dunno. I rejected a fellow's advances when I didn't know him at all, simply because in the state I was in (had just gotten out of a LTR, the ending was messy and traumatic in ways that wouldn't surface as PTSD until the anniversary of said split a year later, I just wanted to have a lot of shallow fuck buddy arrangements to sate my sex-drive/ego while I healed). Over time (about a year) I got to know him as a friend and I developed genuine feelings/attraction for him as a person and asked him out on a date. Then we were on FIRE*. It just happens that I am the sort of woman that develops romantic relationships this way, like a slow burn. It could be that she is going through the same thing...unfortunately some people may consider this being "put on the back burner" and consider it a negative, selfish thing...sort of like leading someone on. But if she is being honest she may see a lot of potential in you as a partner, just NOT RIGHT NOW. Or, like myself, perhaps what she needs after a divorce (the details and circumstances of which you may not know) is to be able to get to know someone without obligation for immediate bonding/intimacy/labels because her last relationship obviously didn't work (a lot of people have years in which they second guess their ability to make decisions after something they invested that much time and emotion in fails). She may need to assess every aspect of you as a person and how you fit into her life/how you work as people rather than in the context of DATING. She may also actually like you and not want to use you as a rebound. Who knows. Maybe she just wanted an out without hurting your feelings.
If that's the case, then be her friend and see what develops. But that's your choice. It may amount to nothing and she may heal and find someone else and you remain a friend. She may develop feelings for you. My advice is to be cordial with her, be her friend (along the lines of what YOU consider a friend), date others as the opportunity arises, and if you're available and she wants to date sometime in the future (and you're honestly still interested) then go for it. But the cards have to fall into place this way on their own. You can't will it.
*This ultimately didn't work out for either of us for a variety of reasons but that's ok.
posted by Young Kullervo at 11:35 AM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
If that's the case, then be her friend and see what develops. But that's your choice. It may amount to nothing and she may heal and find someone else and you remain a friend. She may develop feelings for you. My advice is to be cordial with her, be her friend (along the lines of what YOU consider a friend), date others as the opportunity arises, and if you're available and she wants to date sometime in the future (and you're honestly still interested) then go for it. But the cards have to fall into place this way on their own. You can't will it.
*This ultimately didn't work out for either of us for a variety of reasons but that's ok.
posted by Young Kullervo at 11:35 AM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
One other thing. Don't be a "nice" guy who thinks that if he checks off a lot boxes and is persistent will get the woman. I recently reentered the dating world and as far as I can tell, women respond to me when I am very upfront about what I want.
I also recommend reading Intimate Connections by Dr. David Burns and doing exactly what it says.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:36 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I also recommend reading Intimate Connections by Dr. David Burns and doing exactly what it says.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:36 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've had long conversations with ladyfriends about this sort of situation, and been on the sidelines of some.
Pretty much, women are taught that they aren't allowed to say no in many ways. And they are constantly reminded of this by the shitty responses they get from whiny dudes when they do say no that immediately go in to if-then branch chains of rules lawyering.
This was a very direct know. The "maybe" part was because of how harsh of a response a no from a woman pretty much always gets from a man. This was actually an unusually succinct No. Like, the no-iest no you're likely to ever see in the wild in this sort of situation.
Every single woman i know has at least a couple stories of some guy not fucking off after they were told no in this sort of situation. Crap, i was just talking to someone yesterday about some hanger-on dude who just wouldn't give up and go away even after being repeatedly shut down.
The only way forward from here, other than out, is to be a negative story she exasperatedly tells her friends.
Don't be that guy. Move on.
posted by emptythought at 1:07 PM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Pretty much, women are taught that they aren't allowed to say no in many ways. And they are constantly reminded of this by the shitty responses they get from whiny dudes when they do say no that immediately go in to if-then branch chains of rules lawyering.
This was a very direct know. The "maybe" part was because of how harsh of a response a no from a woman pretty much always gets from a man. This was actually an unusually succinct No. Like, the no-iest no you're likely to ever see in the wild in this sort of situation.
Every single woman i know has at least a couple stories of some guy not fucking off after they were told no in this sort of situation. Crap, i was just talking to someone yesterday about some hanger-on dude who just wouldn't give up and go away even after being repeatedly shut down.
The only way forward from here, other than out, is to be a negative story she exasperatedly tells her friends.
Don't be that guy. Move on.
posted by emptythought at 1:07 PM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Best answer: First off - no, you're not being "creepy". Assuming that you did a reasonable job of conveying how things went, what you said, what she said, and so forth, it doesn't sound to me like she was trying to dump you permanently, and you don't sound like a psycho.
It's impossible to know just what exactly she is thinking, but I'll note that you're dealing with two fairly large obstacles:
1. she's in the midst of a divorce, and
2. y'all live an hour away from each other.
I've known women who won't even allow themselves to think about whether or not there is a 'romantic spark' in the face of those kinds of blockers.
So you ask what to do? My advice - not that I'm especially qualified to give it - is that you need to be really, really patient. You may well be on shaky ground with her until after her divorce is final. *If* it becomes final - there could be a reconciliation. I've seen it happen.
I'm not sure if this is even good advice, but you may want to just level with her and say something along the lines of "I know this is not an ideal situation, but there is something about you that makes me not want to give up and walk off into the night. So - yes, I'd like to continue to see you now and then, as friends. And if we're still friends in 6 months or a year, maybe things will be different? No promises or obligations on either of our parts. The only question I have for you is: are you okay with this?" I'm sure this can be phrased a lot more smoothly, and natch you don't want to put her on the spot. But she's an ivy-league professor? I should think she will be able to give you a straight answer.
If she says no - then wish her well and move on.
If she says yes - well, that's obviously a good sign. The thing is, you're really going to have to be patient: maybe a couple of phone calls a month, maybe a date once every month. Be a class act. Be a gentleman. I hope this doesn't some like some kind of pick-up artist crap, but what it all boils down to is simply this: how does she feel / how do you make her feel when she is with you?
Finally: before you do anything, you really need to think about whether or not this is a battle you want to fight. I mean, if you win her heart, get married and live happily ever after, that's great. But the sad fact is that wooing this woman is going to be a major effort, and even if you do everything right - you still might not end up with her. You need to steel yourself to be ready for this; you knew it would be tough, but you tried anyway. Own it. Don't blame her or anyone else if it doesn't work out.
Whatever you decide, I wish you the best.
posted by doctor tough love at 1:09 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's impossible to know just what exactly she is thinking, but I'll note that you're dealing with two fairly large obstacles:
1. she's in the midst of a divorce, and
2. y'all live an hour away from each other.
I've known women who won't even allow themselves to think about whether or not there is a 'romantic spark' in the face of those kinds of blockers.
So you ask what to do? My advice - not that I'm especially qualified to give it - is that you need to be really, really patient. You may well be on shaky ground with her until after her divorce is final. *If* it becomes final - there could be a reconciliation. I've seen it happen.
I'm not sure if this is even good advice, but you may want to just level with her and say something along the lines of "I know this is not an ideal situation, but there is something about you that makes me not want to give up and walk off into the night. So - yes, I'd like to continue to see you now and then, as friends. And if we're still friends in 6 months or a year, maybe things will be different? No promises or obligations on either of our parts. The only question I have for you is: are you okay with this?" I'm sure this can be phrased a lot more smoothly, and natch you don't want to put her on the spot. But she's an ivy-league professor? I should think she will be able to give you a straight answer.
If she says no - then wish her well and move on.
If she says yes - well, that's obviously a good sign. The thing is, you're really going to have to be patient: maybe a couple of phone calls a month, maybe a date once every month. Be a class act. Be a gentleman. I hope this doesn't some like some kind of pick-up artist crap, but what it all boils down to is simply this: how does she feel / how do you make her feel when she is with you?
Finally: before you do anything, you really need to think about whether or not this is a battle you want to fight. I mean, if you win her heart, get married and live happily ever after, that's great. But the sad fact is that wooing this woman is going to be a major effort, and even if you do everything right - you still might not end up with her. You need to steel yourself to be ready for this; you knew it would be tough, but you tried anyway. Own it. Don't blame her or anyone else if it doesn't work out.
Whatever you decide, I wish you the best.
posted by doctor tough love at 1:09 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm really big on "don't be creepy", but given the whole divorce thing? I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the "for now" element really means exactly what it says on the tin. But you need to take some deep breaths and relax and also not make all of this more perfect than it is. If you want her to keep the option open, you have to be doing the same. Keeping the option open, not pining secretly and imagining how much better it would be if you were Really Together. This isn't a wooing kind of thing. "Not now, maybe later" means exactly that. You don't have to take no for an answer if she didn't say no. You do have to take "not right now", which means no wooing until she's expressed that she's open to that. If you can just have a nice time and have a nice conversation and leave it at that, do that. If you can't, move on.
posted by Sequence at 2:03 PM on July 22, 2015
posted by Sequence at 2:03 PM on July 22, 2015
I would think hard about what your plans are for how far you want to take this. In my opinion, this woman has given you EXTREMELY clear signs that she's not interested in dating you: spending an entire date with closed off body language, refusing to make eye contact with you, and then telling you she is not sexually attracted to you (that's basically what "no romantic sparks" means). I don't know what more you want? Like, do you want to push her to the point of having to flat out tell you not to contact her again? What could she say that would make you stop "wooing"? If the answer is "nothing", you know you have a problem here. Really think about what it is about what she's done and told you that's causing you to disregard her (totally valid and legitimate) words and actions here.
Here's the thing. Women are really socialized to not give men the hard no, in part because most of us have personally had (or at a minimum have friends who have had) men react REALLY BADLY to that. So I am reading her "no" here in that context.
I think there's nothing wrong with maintaining a zero-expectations friendship while you date other people -- if, in fact, you can do that with zero expectations. But please don't woo someone who has specifically asked you not to woo them. Whether this trick sometimes wears women down and "works" in that sense doesn't make it any less disrespectful.
posted by rainbowbrite at 2:12 PM on July 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Here's the thing. Women are really socialized to not give men the hard no, in part because most of us have personally had (or at a minimum have friends who have had) men react REALLY BADLY to that. So I am reading her "no" here in that context.
I think there's nothing wrong with maintaining a zero-expectations friendship while you date other people -- if, in fact, you can do that with zero expectations. But please don't woo someone who has specifically asked you not to woo them. Whether this trick sometimes wears women down and "works" in that sense doesn't make it any less disrespectful.
posted by rainbowbrite at 2:12 PM on July 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Not to pile on, but:
I've heard of this actually working in the real world, of a man actually being persistent in his attentions and winning a woman over.
I can see why you think you've seen this happen, but I think it's quite possible you're misunderstanding what exactly is going on in these situations. It may be an experience that men and women simply tend to interpret differently. I've seen this sort of thing happen on occasion too, and from a woman's perspective here's what I see going on. In these cases, the woman is in fact interested in the man romantically. But for whatever reason, she's not ready to date him (and/or anyone else) at that time. Maybe she's scared. Maybe she has other important things going on in her life. Maybe she wishes it could work out but has doubts because she's planning on moving away soon, or she thinks they're too young, or she's been hurt in the past. So she tells him she doesn't want to date. But she is interested. And because he knows her well (in the cases I've seen, the would-be couple are already friends or at least have been friendly for a while) he senses this. And he persists, not by continually asking her out or repeatedly trying to convince her what a great boyfriend he'd be, but by unselfishly, quietly, proving to her over time that he will be there for her and that she values him in her life.
This is not the situation you and your date are in. Will you ever be in that situation in the future, if you respect her feelings and eventually go on to become friends? Anything is possible. But you can't force that.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 2:14 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've heard of this actually working in the real world, of a man actually being persistent in his attentions and winning a woman over.
I can see why you think you've seen this happen, but I think it's quite possible you're misunderstanding what exactly is going on in these situations. It may be an experience that men and women simply tend to interpret differently. I've seen this sort of thing happen on occasion too, and from a woman's perspective here's what I see going on. In these cases, the woman is in fact interested in the man romantically. But for whatever reason, she's not ready to date him (and/or anyone else) at that time. Maybe she's scared. Maybe she has other important things going on in her life. Maybe she wishes it could work out but has doubts because she's planning on moving away soon, or she thinks they're too young, or she's been hurt in the past. So she tells him she doesn't want to date. But she is interested. And because he knows her well (in the cases I've seen, the would-be couple are already friends or at least have been friendly for a while) he senses this. And he persists, not by continually asking her out or repeatedly trying to convince her what a great boyfriend he'd be, but by unselfishly, quietly, proving to her over time that he will be there for her and that she values him in her life.
This is not the situation you and your date are in. Will you ever be in that situation in the future, if you respect her feelings and eventually go on to become friends? Anything is possible. But you can't force that.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 2:14 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
And in a related note, I've been hearing from women all my life that I'm a great guy but "they just don't see me that way.
Unless you are some combination of impossibly good looking, friendly, talented and charming, this probably just means you are a normal average human being, not that there is anything that is especially off putting about you. I think most women I know are great but I don't think of them that way, either.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 2:20 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Unless you are some combination of impossibly good looking, friendly, talented and charming, this probably just means you are a normal average human being, not that there is anything that is especially off putting about you. I think most women I know are great but I don't think of them that way, either.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 2:20 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
I definitely have had a few guys grow on me, where my attraction and interest grew. But it was never after I explicitly told them no. It was after lots of internal "I'm not sure" on my part - and it definitely didn't come out of any perceivable campaign or strategy on their part.
posted by sweetkid at 2:23 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by sweetkid at 2:23 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
An hour away is a long way to go for a new friend.
Normally I'd just take no for an answer and if we lived close enough take her up on her offer to be friends with no expectations. Since she lives an hour away, we'd probably just let things drift apart.
And upon rereading, yeah, that. Your normal plan is a good one.
posted by Kwine at 2:50 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Normally I'd just take no for an answer and if we lived close enough take her up on her offer to be friends with no expectations. Since she lives an hour away, we'd probably just let things drift apart.
And upon rereading, yeah, that. Your normal plan is a good one.
posted by Kwine at 2:50 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think the best way to "woo" this lady is to express how you feel about her and give her some space.
It's hard to say why the date didn't go well, but I think you should be easier on your looks. I doubt that was the problem. The main issue that leaps out to me, at least, is that she's going through a divorce. She's not on an even keel, so to speak, and needs to restore some equilibrium to her life.
So while she does that, you need to give her some room. But you can still woo her by saying, in a short email:
"Thanks for your honesty. Quite honestly, I was really smitten with you during our date. If you would ever I like to go out again, please don't hesitate to contact me. I would love to see you again."
And leave it like that.
It seems to me that it's likely that this lady is much more comfortable "being in control" (which is not in any way a "bad" thing), given her career, educational pedigree and the fact she drove to see *you* (presumably so that she would feel in no way obligated to see you again if you had driven to see her).
So the best way to woo her is to let her know you think she's special (and lord knows she's probably feeling rotten at the moment because of her divorce), and then listen to her, and give her the power contact you.
And then honor your promise and not contact her.
That's sending a real strong message that you can communicate well, and that you can be trusted.
And once again, don't be too hard on yourself about your looks. Speaking as a fortysomething myself who has been around a while, looks are not as important as you might think.
posted by Nevin at 2:55 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's hard to say why the date didn't go well, but I think you should be easier on your looks. I doubt that was the problem. The main issue that leaps out to me, at least, is that she's going through a divorce. She's not on an even keel, so to speak, and needs to restore some equilibrium to her life.
So while she does that, you need to give her some room. But you can still woo her by saying, in a short email:
"Thanks for your honesty. Quite honestly, I was really smitten with you during our date. If you would ever I like to go out again, please don't hesitate to contact me. I would love to see you again."
And leave it like that.
It seems to me that it's likely that this lady is much more comfortable "being in control" (which is not in any way a "bad" thing), given her career, educational pedigree and the fact she drove to see *you* (presumably so that she would feel in no way obligated to see you again if you had driven to see her).
So the best way to woo her is to let her know you think she's special (and lord knows she's probably feeling rotten at the moment because of her divorce), and then listen to her, and give her the power contact you.
And then honor your promise and not contact her.
That's sending a real strong message that you can communicate well, and that you can be trusted.
And once again, don't be too hard on yourself about your looks. Speaking as a fortysomething myself who has been around a while, looks are not as important as you might think.
posted by Nevin at 2:55 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Okay I'm embarrassed to rely on this as a frame of reference but the "right now" thing is totally A Thing as referenced in an episode of How I Met Your Mother. Women, especially, are conditioned to be careful of others' feelings, and adding the "right now" is a way to soften the blow. Additionally, people can react violently to being turned down, so it's a good method to try to maintain safety. Without knowing more, I'd assume that she didn't want to hurt your feelings any more than necessary, so this was a way of letting you down gently.
While I do agree that going against her wishes is creepy, I have also seen attraction grow over time. I would recommend being her platonic friend and seeing how that goes. Maybe she'll grow to be attracted to you, or maybe you'll learn she's not so great once you get to know her!
posted by masquesoporfavor at 3:51 PM on July 22, 2015
While I do agree that going against her wishes is creepy, I have also seen attraction grow over time. I would recommend being her platonic friend and seeing how that goes. Maybe she'll grow to be attracted to you, or maybe you'll learn she's not so great once you get to know her!
posted by masquesoporfavor at 3:51 PM on July 22, 2015
There's only one way for you to do this and not be creepy.
You can say, essentially, "thanks. I had a great time! If you ever feel like going on a second date to see if chemistry develops, call me."
That's not a great option. It's unlikely to work. But it's your only shot of leaving the door open.
Honestly, though, it's not going to happen. It could be the divorce, or it could be you, but either way, she's already decided that she isn't sexually or romantically attracted to you.
As for this happening all the time, maybe you're not meeting women with compatible personalities. Maybe they need you to be more (or less) passionate, excited, driven, or something. My guess is that either you're not flirting, or this is just part of the numbers game and you're down on yourself unnecessarily.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:01 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
You can say, essentially, "thanks. I had a great time! If you ever feel like going on a second date to see if chemistry develops, call me."
That's not a great option. It's unlikely to work. But it's your only shot of leaving the door open.
Honestly, though, it's not going to happen. It could be the divorce, or it could be you, but either way, she's already decided that she isn't sexually or romantically attracted to you.
As for this happening all the time, maybe you're not meeting women with compatible personalities. Maybe they need you to be more (or less) passionate, excited, driven, or something. My guess is that either you're not flirting, or this is just part of the numbers game and you're down on yourself unnecessarily.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:01 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
You're seriously going to put the burden on her to tell you she's not interested AGAIN? She knows your number. If she changes her mind, she can call you. Leave her alone. The divorce and "for now," etc., are red herrings. She does not like you and she already told you once.
If her arms were crossed and she wasn't making eye contact, she's not undecided or on the fence. She is actively unattracted to you.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 5:34 PM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
If her arms were crossed and she wasn't making eye contact, she's not undecided or on the fence. She is actively unattracted to you.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 5:34 PM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Also how did she "clearly" enjoy herself if she wasn't making eye contact? I don't want to be harsh but I see you are highlighting the answers that aren't very popular yet encourage you to pursue her and ignoring the ones that have tons and tons of favorites, meaning most people agree with them.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 5:40 PM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 5:40 PM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
"Wooing" might have been possible before she said a hard no. She gave you a hard no.
posted by ziggly at 6:37 PM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by ziggly at 6:37 PM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Some people (like me and pammeke) know right off the bat if we're not going to end up changing our minds. "Giving you a chance" multiple times is not doing you a favor and actually giving you a chance to "woo" or win her over. Some people are better with slow wooing, but this lady is pretty clearly not one of them.
Remember, the definition of creepy in dating should be "I said no and he kept on coming." But it sounds like you've gotten the point by now. Next!
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:40 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Remember, the definition of creepy in dating should be "I said no and he kept on coming." But it sounds like you've gotten the point by now. Next!
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:40 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you want a way to go even lower-pressure, you could word it "No problem! I enjoyed our date, and feel free to get in touch if something changes. Best, rkriger."
posted by 8603 at 7:41 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by 8603 at 7:41 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Aside from respecting her wishes, let me offer a note for your own selfish benefit.
The person I know best who "wooed" a woman into a a relationship she didn't want wound up married to someone who didn't respect him, ordered him around, fantasized openly about other men who got away, ignored him and eventually left him after a couple decades. I believe he considers that relationship the biggest mistake of his life.
posted by ead at 9:00 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
The person I know best who "wooed" a woman into a a relationship she didn't want wound up married to someone who didn't respect him, ordered him around, fantasized openly about other men who got away, ignored him and eventually left him after a couple decades. I believe he considers that relationship the biggest mistake of his life.
posted by ead at 9:00 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer:
All that in mind: no, she did not give you a "hard no".
Moving on ...
People can say all this stuff about how "she didn't say 'I don't want to see you again' but that's what she really meant because [reasons]", but based on your account of what she said, she left the door open for a friend-date. Calling her and taking her up on it is not being "creepy".
Again, I wish you the best with this. Be patient. Be a gentleman. Really be her friend. I hope it works out for both of you.
posted by doctor tough love at 10:48 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I went on a date with an amazing woman, she told me she thinks I'm amazing but just isn't feeling the chemistry.I guess it's easy to read a letter like yours and read all kinds of stuff into it: "she obviously wouldn't meet your eyes because you have the eyes of a demon from Hell!" and stuff like that. But I'm trying to go purely off the basis of your words. I'm assuming that you're a normal guy - not from Hell or any other netherworld - and that you did your best to synopsize and write the important parts. It sounds to me like the date - like many first dates - had its awkward moments, but still "conversation flowed".
...
... we had a very nice dinner -- she even drove an hour to see me (I offered to drive to her but she chose to come to me).
...
I've been on dates where a woman is into me, so I know what that looks like. This was kind of the opposite. The conversation flowed and we both clearly enjoyed ourselves, but for much of the date her arms were crossed and she wasn't making eye contact. We hugged and she drove home, and texted me later in the evening that she had a great time.
When I asked her out on a second date she texted back that she really enjoyed herself and wants to see more of me, and that I'm a great guy, but she didn't feel any romantic sparks flying. She just wanted to be upfront that if we got together again it would be just as friends "for now at least."
All that in mind: no, she did not give you a "hard no".
Moving on ...
"I enjoyed our date, and feel free to get in touch if something changes. Best, rkriger."Rubbish. What you do is you call her and ask her out on a friend-date. If she says "no", then it's time to walk away. If she says "yes", then - be her friend.
People can say all this stuff about how "she didn't say 'I don't want to see you again' but that's what she really meant because [reasons]", but based on your account of what she said, she left the door open for a friend-date. Calling her and taking her up on it is not being "creepy".
Again, I wish you the best with this. Be patient. Be a gentleman. Really be her friend. I hope it works out for both of you.
posted by doctor tough love at 10:48 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: A few things:
I know she's interested in getting together again, and I think I've convinced her to not totally shut the door.
Can you elaborate on what you did to convince her - was there more to it than what you've described here, or are you just saying this because of her "for now" comment? Because, I dunno ... "convince" seems like an unpleasant mindset when it comes to romance. You convince someone to buy your used car, or watch your ill-tempered cat while you're on vacation, or otherwise do something they're not inclined to do. Why would you even want to be with someone who isn't inclined to be with you? I think you'd be choosing both self-respect and respect for others if you took this woman at her word and left her alone.
And in a related note, I've been hearing from women all my life that I'm a great guy but "they just don't see me that way." Not all women, but most.
I would agree with the folks saying not to be too hard on yourself here - I always hear that dating is a numbers game, and that's probably because most people just aren't going to "see someone that way." Keep up the online dating, and continue to be respectful of the people you date, and eventually you will find someone who sees you that way. (As a side note, I do hope you mean the people who are telling you this are women with whom you are already in a dating context, and not that you're asking basically all the women in your life to go out with you - probably projecting here because I did know someone who actually did get around to putting nearly all the women in his social circles into a position where they had to turn him down like that, and it was really desperate and off-putting ... again, though, I'm going to assume you mean all of the women who are already in a dating context with you).
Finally, on the "friend date" idea, I'm seeing two possibilities here: either you're explicitly calling it a friend-date, which to me would be really off-putting (you wouldn't call it a friend-date if you were going out with a guy friend, would you?) and strongly suggestive of the fact that you were ignoring my clearly-stated boundaries, or else you're thinking of it in your head as a friend-date but not calling it that out loud, which is just deceptive and disrespectful. I'm glad you've already noted that you wouldn't try being friends with this person while harboring a secret agenda - your instincts are 100% right here.
posted by DingoMutt at 6:53 AM on July 23, 2015
I know she's interested in getting together again, and I think I've convinced her to not totally shut the door.
Can you elaborate on what you did to convince her - was there more to it than what you've described here, or are you just saying this because of her "for now" comment? Because, I dunno ... "convince" seems like an unpleasant mindset when it comes to romance. You convince someone to buy your used car, or watch your ill-tempered cat while you're on vacation, or otherwise do something they're not inclined to do. Why would you even want to be with someone who isn't inclined to be with you? I think you'd be choosing both self-respect and respect for others if you took this woman at her word and left her alone.
And in a related note, I've been hearing from women all my life that I'm a great guy but "they just don't see me that way." Not all women, but most.
I would agree with the folks saying not to be too hard on yourself here - I always hear that dating is a numbers game, and that's probably because most people just aren't going to "see someone that way." Keep up the online dating, and continue to be respectful of the people you date, and eventually you will find someone who sees you that way. (As a side note, I do hope you mean the people who are telling you this are women with whom you are already in a dating context, and not that you're asking basically all the women in your life to go out with you - probably projecting here because I did know someone who actually did get around to putting nearly all the women in his social circles into a position where they had to turn him down like that, and it was really desperate and off-putting ... again, though, I'm going to assume you mean all of the women who are already in a dating context with you).
Finally, on the "friend date" idea, I'm seeing two possibilities here: either you're explicitly calling it a friend-date, which to me would be really off-putting (you wouldn't call it a friend-date if you were going out with a guy friend, would you?) and strongly suggestive of the fact that you were ignoring my clearly-stated boundaries, or else you're thinking of it in your head as a friend-date but not calling it that out loud, which is just deceptive and disrespectful. I'm glad you've already noted that you wouldn't try being friends with this person while harboring a secret agenda - your instincts are 100% right here.
posted by DingoMutt at 6:53 AM on July 23, 2015
Response by poster: So, I debated whether or not to respond further, given the tenor of some of the comments here, but I figured I'd provide an answer to DingoMutt. I clearly could have framed my question more clearly -- I was trying to boil it down to the crux of things and I may have lost some context in the process. The texting conversation between me and her, prior to my posting my question, went along the following lines (this is a paraphrase, not verbatim):
HER: Hey, you're a great guy, and I want to keep seeing you, but I wasn't feeling a lot of romantic sparks.
ME: Thank you for being so up front, I've been here before, but I know you're going through some stuff right now (divorce) and maybe we could keep getting together and see if something develops romantically. Because I think you're pretty great.
HER: OK let's do that. I just want to set your expectations that those feelings might not develop, and I didn't want to send the wrong signals, but I'll keep an open mind.
BOTH: [Continues texting, making plans for the next date, and general flirtatious banter.]
And, to be clear, while all this is going on I am continuing to date other folks, I am not putting her on a pedestal, and I am being respectful and listening to what she says.
Sometimes a first date is just awkward. Some people give bad first impressions but folks warm up later. I find a lot of people are willing to give up after a first date (and I've been one of them) and I think that's a shame. I know of people who've gone on disastrous first dates that they managed to rebound from, and even ended up happily married.
Do I think that's likely to happen here? Probably not, and when I sense that it's not going to happen, I will make the call then whether to stay platonic friends or part ways amicably (some of my closest friends, including a woman whose wedding reception I'm MC'ing in 2 weeks, were people I met on OKC dates).
And yes, I know that sometimes women don't give a clear "no" due to socialization, fear, etc., and I like to think that I'm adept enough to pick up on that. I've faced a lot of rejection (as have most single people my age) and I'm pretty good at reading the situation. I think that the fact that I'm dealing with a very accomplished woman who has risen to the pinnacle of a male dominated field bolsters my sense that she's capable of clearly articulating her position.
And, are there creepy clueless guys who can't read signals and end up making women feel uber-uncomfortable or threatened? And is it reasonable for women to be cautious of such guys? Absolutely. A lot of the responses here seemed to be assuming I'm one of those guys, and I guess I'll just have to posit as an initial premise that I'm not one. Choose to accept that premise or not.
For those of you who didn't jump to some pretty extreme conclusions and offered thoughtful advice, thank you very much.
posted by rkriger at 8:53 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
HER: Hey, you're a great guy, and I want to keep seeing you, but I wasn't feeling a lot of romantic sparks.
ME: Thank you for being so up front, I've been here before, but I know you're going through some stuff right now (divorce) and maybe we could keep getting together and see if something develops romantically. Because I think you're pretty great.
HER: OK let's do that. I just want to set your expectations that those feelings might not develop, and I didn't want to send the wrong signals, but I'll keep an open mind.
BOTH: [Continues texting, making plans for the next date, and general flirtatious banter.]
And, to be clear, while all this is going on I am continuing to date other folks, I am not putting her on a pedestal, and I am being respectful and listening to what she says.
Sometimes a first date is just awkward. Some people give bad first impressions but folks warm up later. I find a lot of people are willing to give up after a first date (and I've been one of them) and I think that's a shame. I know of people who've gone on disastrous first dates that they managed to rebound from, and even ended up happily married.
Do I think that's likely to happen here? Probably not, and when I sense that it's not going to happen, I will make the call then whether to stay platonic friends or part ways amicably (some of my closest friends, including a woman whose wedding reception I'm MC'ing in 2 weeks, were people I met on OKC dates).
And yes, I know that sometimes women don't give a clear "no" due to socialization, fear, etc., and I like to think that I'm adept enough to pick up on that. I've faced a lot of rejection (as have most single people my age) and I'm pretty good at reading the situation. I think that the fact that I'm dealing with a very accomplished woman who has risen to the pinnacle of a male dominated field bolsters my sense that she's capable of clearly articulating her position.
And, are there creepy clueless guys who can't read signals and end up making women feel uber-uncomfortable or threatened? And is it reasonable for women to be cautious of such guys? Absolutely. A lot of the responses here seemed to be assuming I'm one of those guys, and I guess I'll just have to posit as an initial premise that I'm not one. Choose to accept that premise or not.
For those of you who didn't jump to some pretty extreme conclusions and offered thoughtful advice, thank you very much.
posted by rkriger at 8:53 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
You know what? That text exchange seems really respectful and healthy from both of you - you acknowledged what she said, were explicit about your romantic hopes in wanting to get together again, and she seemed (from what I can tell) to be comfortable in the approach you suggested. I realize you don't need approval from Random Internet Stranger #89156 or anything, but from what you wrote in this follow-up, I think the two of you are doing well. So as a revised answer to your question: stay the course you're on!
And heck, maybe read the Emotional Labor Self-Assessment/Checklist question (or any of the other emotional labor threads on the blue/green/grey) if you're still looking for self-improvement/assessment tips.
Good luck to you - from your update, it sounds like you're on a good path here.
posted by DingoMutt at 9:54 AM on July 23, 2015
And heck, maybe read the Emotional Labor Self-Assessment/Checklist question (or any of the other emotional labor threads on the blue/green/grey) if you're still looking for self-improvement/assessment tips.
Good luck to you - from your update, it sounds like you're on a good path here.
posted by DingoMutt at 9:54 AM on July 23, 2015
Best answer: You know, she's an hour away. If she really wanted to be rid of you, you aren't hard to avoid. This is part of why I replied with ideas on what might keep the possibility alive -- if she really thought you were loathsome, she wouldn't have left the door open to trying to stay in touch with someone so far away. You are easy to be rid of. I had long distance relationships during my divorce and any time one of them crossed some hard boundary, they were easy to ditch and I did so. So I think if you offend her in a big way, the odds are good the trail will go ice cold overnight and you won't be wondering. So I think you are on firm ground for keeping in contact and trying to foster a romance.
The other thing I will say is that I have really been raked over the coals by men. So it took me a long time to get the memo that genuinely decent men exist and start finding that attractive. She's going through a divorce. No matter how amicable it is, something went very wrong. Her heart is probably pretty torn apart. Maybe her experiences with men are less shitty than mine. Maybe not. But if a woman has been hurt a lot, she can just be kind of blind to certain things or slow to pick up on them. And that's another reason I replied. During my divorce, a number of men liked me enough that they were patient with some of my baggage and I am glad they were.
A pretty benign thing was that I married young, so I had just never been involved with significantly younger men and I really had a hard time accepting that younger men would want me. A few younger men were persistent in spending time with me and expressing attraction for me. I am still kind of slow to believe a younger man actually wants me, but it is no longer just this huge blind spot like it once was. I think I am somewhat better about not making an ass of myself with my default assumption that "He's younger, so he can't possibly be interested." But, yeah, I am still slow to believe a younger man really wants me and quick to place more emphasis on any signals that he doesn't. ("Welp. He didn't call. It's over. Moving on.)
I kind of think of it like learning a new language that you don't even realize exists. Like sometimes people just are not getting the memo and what they are picking up either sounds like gibberish to them or is being misinterpreted.
So sometimes people need a bit of time to process a new concept. For some women, nice men do not read as attractive because their internal programming has taught them to only pick up sexual signals delivered in the language of Asshole and you aren't speaking Asshole, so they don't realize you are even trying to send such signals. At least, that was me at one time. It still takes me more time to get the memo when non-assholes are trying to hit on me and I appreciate that sometimes non-assholes are patient about giving me time to decode the memo and have this epiphany. Because god knows I desperately want to break the cycle of only finding assholes hot. Jebus.
posted by Michele in California at 10:15 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
The other thing I will say is that I have really been raked over the coals by men. So it took me a long time to get the memo that genuinely decent men exist and start finding that attractive. She's going through a divorce. No matter how amicable it is, something went very wrong. Her heart is probably pretty torn apart. Maybe her experiences with men are less shitty than mine. Maybe not. But if a woman has been hurt a lot, she can just be kind of blind to certain things or slow to pick up on them. And that's another reason I replied. During my divorce, a number of men liked me enough that they were patient with some of my baggage and I am glad they were.
A pretty benign thing was that I married young, so I had just never been involved with significantly younger men and I really had a hard time accepting that younger men would want me. A few younger men were persistent in spending time with me and expressing attraction for me. I am still kind of slow to believe a younger man actually wants me, but it is no longer just this huge blind spot like it once was. I think I am somewhat better about not making an ass of myself with my default assumption that "He's younger, so he can't possibly be interested." But, yeah, I am still slow to believe a younger man really wants me and quick to place more emphasis on any signals that he doesn't. ("Welp. He didn't call. It's over. Moving on.)
I kind of think of it like learning a new language that you don't even realize exists. Like sometimes people just are not getting the memo and what they are picking up either sounds like gibberish to them or is being misinterpreted.
So sometimes people need a bit of time to process a new concept. For some women, nice men do not read as attractive because their internal programming has taught them to only pick up sexual signals delivered in the language of Asshole and you aren't speaking Asshole, so they don't realize you are even trying to send such signals. At least, that was me at one time. It still takes me more time to get the memo when non-assholes are trying to hit on me and I appreciate that sometimes non-assholes are patient about giving me time to decode the memo and have this epiphany. Because god knows I desperately want to break the cycle of only finding assholes hot. Jebus.
posted by Michele in California at 10:15 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
One last thought: When I do finally get the memo that a nice man is interestsd, I have a hard time figuring out how to respond. I learned to hear sexual signals in the language of Asshole and I learned to respond in the language of Ball Busting Bitch so I could get laid without just being a victim. I know I can't do that to someone being nice to me and I don't know any other way to respond and I get scared that whatever I do will be wrong and drive him off and I just feel really trapped. I know how to work it out with an asshole. I don't even know how to talk to a nice guy and I dread him pitying me or making me feel loathsome and not good enough. It is far easier to play to my strengths and do what's familiar and be bitchy about "Yup, I know I'm gorgeous and men who want to fuck me because I'm gorgeous are a dime a dozen and what makes you think you are good enough?" It is a lot harder to admit that you're the first man in ages who hasn't been an asshole to me and I'm just a puddle and I've got no game because no one ever taught me how to play the game of love without bitch bites as the appropriate response.
Like pretty much everyone here, I am projecting myself into the scenario you describe. So I am seeing a woman who likes you, isn't feeling the sparks but is maybe hoping she will at some point because it would be nice to get laid for once without feeling like a mess afterwards and wondering if sex is worth all the drama and pain.
Best of luck.
posted by Michele in California at 10:56 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Like pretty much everyone here, I am projecting myself into the scenario you describe. So I am seeing a woman who likes you, isn't feeling the sparks but is maybe hoping she will at some point because it would be nice to get laid for once without feeling like a mess afterwards and wondering if sex is worth all the drama and pain.
Best of luck.
posted by Michele in California at 10:56 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
OK I knew this woman years ago who wasn't into the guy. She had a thing about height being 5'9" and refusing to be involved with a shorter man to whit the guy. So he was in her social circle and just stayed her friend and let her calmly know he was still interested. Cut to the end of story, marriage and kids followed. YMMV.
Accept her word as others said but she didn't say go away. She said I like you - as a friend. She said she wants that in her life from you. She drew a boundary. I heard you say er write that 'for now' she doesn't feel romance. I'd say, well duh, she's a woman going through a divorce. Lots of women do not feel romantic when ending a relationship.
I'd recommend you take the positive from her, she, again didn't say go away. Be her friend. Enjoy her company. Find and share the things that work well for the both of you. As far as the hour drive and drifting apart. If you set yourself up for that you'll create it. Focus on knowing her as a friend. Perhaps in time it will grow into the love you want. You know what they say, it's not your job to make her "like" (love) you. It's your job to discover if you like her. Lastly if it comes up in conversation don't deny the attraction you may still have for her - but don't initiate that, unless or until you know the time is right to do that. I'm saying respect her but be true to yourself.
My last relationship took that course. She initially said no, I just said please meet me as a friend because I enjoy your company and want you as part of my life. It can happen doesn't mean it will. It certainly won't if you decide in advance she's too good for you and is rejecting you. Don't fill in the blanks. I wish you the best.
posted by Jim_Jam at 12:33 AM on July 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Accept her word as others said but she didn't say go away. She said I like you - as a friend. She said she wants that in her life from you. She drew a boundary. I heard you say er write that 'for now' she doesn't feel romance. I'd say, well duh, she's a woman going through a divorce. Lots of women do not feel romantic when ending a relationship.
I'd recommend you take the positive from her, she, again didn't say go away. Be her friend. Enjoy her company. Find and share the things that work well for the both of you. As far as the hour drive and drifting apart. If you set yourself up for that you'll create it. Focus on knowing her as a friend. Perhaps in time it will grow into the love you want. You know what they say, it's not your job to make her "like" (love) you. It's your job to discover if you like her. Lastly if it comes up in conversation don't deny the attraction you may still have for her - but don't initiate that, unless or until you know the time is right to do that. I'm saying respect her but be true to yourself.
My last relationship took that course. She initially said no, I just said please meet me as a friend because I enjoy your company and want you as part of my life. It can happen doesn't mean it will. It certainly won't if you decide in advance she's too good for you and is rejecting you. Don't fill in the blanks. I wish you the best.
posted by Jim_Jam at 12:33 AM on July 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
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posted by dinty_moore at 9:17 AM on July 22, 2015 [25 favorites]