Saving a Friendship... the "plus 3 year old kid" edition
July 20, 2015 1:13 PM   Subscribe

My very treasured friendship of ten years has become very challenging. The issue is: when my husband and I hang out with my friend, her husband, and their kid, the hubbies hang out and talk shop together, and I hang out with my friend and her kid. I try to help, but I'm kinda ignored and really bored. And I actually LIKE kids.

When I hang out with my friend, I feel like wallpaper. I realize that what I'm going to write may make me sound like a jerk. Maybe I am a jerk? Either way, here's the sitch:

My friend (we'll call her Marie) is pretty much 100% focused on meeting the needs of her son (we'll call him Buster) all the time. When the two families hang out, we'll go to their apartment and have dinner together (we'll bring food). The hubbies will then hang out on the back stoop, and Marie and I hang out in the back yard with Buster. The thing is, Marie spends most of the time asking Buster "Do you want something to eat?" "Do you want a toy?" "Do you want another toy?" "Do you want a book"? and then running to get whatever Buster wants. (Buster is 3.) I try to ask interact-- asking Marie about Buster, about Marie, about anything, and sometimes we can have a word or two, but then Buster wants something else and Marie goes to fetch it.

We've tried going for walks, but Buster doesn't like to walk. We've tried going to a park, but Buster doesn't like that either. Buster likes to hang out in the yard ride his scooter back and forth. Marie follows him around and asks after his needs. I sort of loll behind, vainly trying to converse with Marie, or with Buster, but mostly just sort of trailing behind helplessly.

This would be easier if I could connect with Buster, but Buster doesn't really interact. Poor guy-- he had a lot of developmental issues when young, and is "behind" for his age. I suspect Marie is pretty concerned about him, but when I ask about how Buster is doing in preschool, etc., Marie's answer is always, "Fine!"

So... I end up either trying to interact with Buster, usually to no avail (and I LIKE KIDS! I PROMISE!) and kind of follow Marie, who's following Buster, trying to converse and not getting anywhere.

There are two things about this that are tough. One is we used to be really good friends. We'd have a great time together, and I still really value her friendship! And I try to inquire about her life and family and work and such, but I feel like I'm getting nothing back. The second thing is: I have other friends with kids the same age and no issues at all! I hang with the kid and the parents, we're all able to interact. I play with the kid. Sometimes the parent says, "Oh no, little Boopsie, Mom is talking to Anon now and you need to go play!" Somehow, we can hang out and have meaningful friendships.

I just don't know what to do about this one, and whether there IS anything to do. I don't really want to follow Buster around and fetch things for him, and I'd feel bad going inside hanging out with the guys and leaving Marie on Buster duty along. But I feel like wallpaper!

Parents or friends of parents: what to do? Do I try to just hang out with my friend on our own? Do I sit on the stoop and let Marie handle Buster on her own? Do I just suck it up and start asking Buster if there's anything I can fetch for him?
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (40 answers total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
 
What about contacting Marie's husband and asking him to take Buster for the day so you and Marie can have a day out?
posted by Hermione Granger at 1:15 PM on July 20, 2015 [30 favorites]


Bring along a mutual girlfriend perhaps? So at least the two of you can talk? Or a third couple?

Or just go inside with the guys.
posted by quincunx at 1:15 PM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]


Why isn't Marie's husband ever responsible for looking after Buster?

I'd talk to your husband about it, and see if he can't get Marie's husband to step up with the parenting a little. Like, not a direct confrontation or anything, but something like -- "Hey Marie's Husband, you wanna go drink this beer in the backyard while Buster plays?" or "Hey MH, I found this cool [age-appropriate puzzle toy] on sale, should we help Buster put it together?"
posted by sparklemotion at 1:21 PM on July 20, 2015 [24 favorites]


If I were in your position, I would try to make arrangements to go out with Marie for coffee or whatever your favorite conversation facilitator is, and make it clear that I would like to just hang out one on one for a little while - even if it's only 30 minutes while her husband takes the kid down the street or whatever.

Then, I would come straight out and explain to her how you feel. That it's nice to talk to her, and how you've been wanting to say something but there wasn't a good opportunity. Tell her what you've said here: You love her kid, you love getting together with her and her husband, but you sometimes feel like you're just following her around in the backyard with her son. The key here is "when in this situation, I feel like this" phrasing, instead of accusing her of ignoring you. She may still react poorly, but if she's a really treasured friend of yours, I would hope that she would be concerned enough for your feelings to help you solve the problem.
posted by Urban Winter at 1:30 PM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]


I'm going to say that you're really just going to have to wait until Buster grows up a little and Marie isn't quite so preoccupied with him. I think there's only so far that you'll get with hacks and so forth to try and get Marie's husband to look after the kid; for whatever reason, Marie and her husband have decided that she is the one who bears the child-rearing responsibility in the relationship and, sadly, that's probably not going to change just because you're around for a few hours.

I'd probably just lower my expectations for a couple of years and realize that yeah, you're probably going to find dinner at Marie's kinda dull while the kid is still small. You can try to pick things up more once Buster gets a bit older, but it's not likely you're going to be able to refocus Marie's attention in a way you'll find really pleasing right now. It happens, unfortunately, with some parent/childfree friendships; I would guess that's especially true here where the kid has had some developmental issues. It's nothing for either party to beat themselves up about; it's just a matter of changing priorities.
posted by holborne at 1:32 PM on July 20, 2015 [13 favorites]


See if your husband, who is presumably on Team Anon, will lend a hand -- he and Marie's husband might take Buster for postprandial ices/ice cream/whatever, for example, and give you and Marie at least a 30-minute breather/opportunity for conversation.

But yeah, if she's resistant, then you just have to dial back the friendship somewhat and wait this period out.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:39 PM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]


I think I would accept that visits to their house are going to suck for a few more years. If I would very invested in this friendship, I would suck those visits up and invite her out for pedicures or something where she cannot bring Buster.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:42 PM on July 20, 2015 [9 favorites]


I don't really want to follow Buster around and fetch things for him, and I'd feel bad going inside hanging out with the guys and leaving Marie on Buster duty along

Ideally, you'd get the guys to watch Buster every once in awhile (actually 50% of the time) so you two could go out for coffee or catch up or whatnot. In the real world, I'd just suggest doing the above, i.e. going in with the guys. Marie is getting nothing out of your time together and clearly wants to do her thing. There's no reason you have to spend time around Marie + kid just because you're female.

Regardless of why Marie is doing this (because she's been shunted into it or because she looooooves it and thinks it's necessary), she doesn't seem that into you at the moment, and if it hurts feelings I think the whole family relationship might need to be put on ice until the kid grows up a bit.

It's sexism all the way down, most likely.
posted by easter queen at 1:43 PM on July 20, 2015 [15 favorites]


And btw: this doesn't make a jerk at all, at least not in my opinon. An evening like that would drive me bugfuck after about three and a half minutes. Hell, you wouldn't be a jerk if you said you just didn't like children, even; not everyone does and it doesn't make them jerks.
posted by holborne at 1:44 PM on July 20, 2015 [18 favorites]


I would try to get your husband on board with at least keeping the group together. Like, can all four of you go to the backyard, so that if your friend is following the kid around at least you have someone else to talk to? Or invite along another friend/couple to fill out the group. You might also try (casual) restaurants or something like that where the whole group stays together.

I would also see if you can get even brief times to hang out with JUST your friend. I'm not sure about their setup, but can husband watch the son for half an hour while you guys grab coffee? I think interspersing these frustrating dinners with one-on-one time could help build the friendship.
posted by rainbowbrite at 1:44 PM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]


Nthing getting your husband to assist. I wouldn't go the "get the guys and kid to leave" route though, I'd just have him help make it so all four adults are hanging out together. If he sticks with you, Marie's husband will presumably follow. That way you'll have the guys to hang out with if Marie checks out to take care of her son, and hopefully her husband will step up a little if he's in the same space as his child.

Have you tried switching up locations, having them at your place or having a picnic, to see if that changes the dynamic naturally?
posted by metasarah at 1:58 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


The hubbies will then hang out on the back stoop
Well, bully for them.

How about moving the venue outside the home? Ask her out, at night, to a bar or somewhere a kid can't go, when she gets a night off from the kiddo. "I feel like we haven't had any one-on-one time in forever, let's have a girls night sometime if you get a night out."

Of course, it's possible she doesn't get (or want) nights off, in which case, that sucks but being preoccupied with a developmentally challenged kid is not rude, it's just the way life goes sometimes. I don't say this dismissively; that afternoon sounds like dull hell, but you may just have to hang in there for a while until her kid and/or husband grows up a little, whichever comes first.
posted by kapers at 1:59 PM on July 20, 2015 [5 favorites]


Your friend may not realize how bad it has gotten. If her husband is a sexist pig and all parenting duties are HER responsibility and Buster has a serious developmental issue, she may be chronically short of sleep, cut off from most adult interaction, unable to get five minutes to herself and just not aware of the degree to which Buster is sucking the oxygen out of the social air when you come over because the oxygen got sucked out of her life so long ago and she is kind of brain dead at this point.

You might try arranging a one-on-one with her and express your concern for her and tell her some version of what you have told us: That other friends of yours with similar age kids are able to still socialize, that this is really not working and is she getting enough rest? Does her husband ever take Buster? How are things? Does she realize SHE needs to get support in order to be a good parent to a special needs child?

It sounds like there are big problems there and your social interaction with her is not going to improve if some of those are not addressed to some degree. Try to be gentle. This might come as a real shock to her. I have had people drop the phone when I gave them this kind of feedback. It can be impossible to see it when you are at the center of it.

Best of luck.
posted by Michele in California at 2:00 PM on July 20, 2015 [26 favorites]


Yes, it seems like you need more adults so that you aren't left alone when she goes to get things for Buster. Keeping the group together could be an easy start.

Another idea -- could you invite Marie and Buster for a play date with some of your other mom friends? Maybe it would help her to see other moms taking a more mellow approach? I realize her circumstances might be a little different, so I wouldn't press the point if she doesn't gradually come to adopt it, but it might be a way to stay connected that is less painful than the dinners, which is what it seems like you need, especially if the pedicure / ladies' day out idea doesn't work for her.
posted by salvia at 2:05 PM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


i could've written this about my sister. Honestly there's not much you could do, at least for my situation. It got better over time, but I realized there's not much a non-parent (or even a parent) could say to change someone else's parenting style. That's what it really is, her parenting style. My sister's entire life revolves around her kids. They don't even get babysitters so her and her husband can have a night off. I don't agree with it, but it's really not my place to express my opinion. And in my sister's situation, it's not that her husband won't take the kid, it's moreso she's so attached that she chooses to do it herself.

If you guys have a closer relationship and she's not easily offended, it's possible you could bring it up, but it's a touchy subject. I think her husband is the only one who could have some influence over the situation. May just need to wait it out.
posted by monologish at 2:08 PM on July 20, 2015 [12 favorites]


I'm going to go out on a limb because I know women who have also done something similar when raising kids. They went from perfectly fun people who could talk about the world and entertainment and politics and all sorts of things to only being able to tangentially discuss anything because their main focus became their child. From birth through preschool to elementary school to college testing to graduation to wedding planning, their lives became all about their kids. It happens.

I think the real issue is that Marie has changed. Back in the day, you two had a relationship where she was a good friend who had her own life and things to talk about, and now she has morphed her identity into Being Buster's Mommy. She needs to be Uber-Mom, fetching for and chasing after and continually checking in with Buster. It's an identity that she's now formed for herself: she's a Capitol M Mom.

You can try to approach her about this and say you want some adult time, but I warn you to tread carefully. If she really is over-enmeshed in her role as Mom, she will not hear that you miss your friendship but will instead misinterpret that you don't think Buster is the most wonderful child to hold space on God's green Earth. Seriously. She may take it as you don't like her kid and by extension, don't like her.

The best way to approach this is when hanging out with them, you've got to get your husband and Buster's dad to take Buster out for a walk or something. I can almost guarantee that Marie will insist on joining them. You could also ask her to do something for just you two, but prepare yourself that it will be tricky to get her to stop talking about Buster. Eventually she will, but I think the much bigger issue here is that Marie has redefined herself and by extension, she has changed the nature of your friendship.

Continue to be a good friend by recognizing this is who she is choosing to be and remaining her friend.
posted by kinetic at 2:22 PM on July 20, 2015 [20 favorites]


If I were in your shoes, I would either not go over as frequently for the next year or so, invite your friend to kid free events, and/or invite them to your place with other couples and/or families.

But I am positing because there is one more possibility that I have seen work, but it is only likely to work if you are a very good friend (as in the parent would trust this) and accept this.

So I have posted this on the green before, but I knew a couple who stopped engaging, going out, etc., when they had their child. One of their closest friends finally said, "I will babysit for the night, you go out, this is a gift" and the couple did go out. The person who received the babysitting gift told me that it really changed her perspective; both she and her spouse found out that it was fun/and an entirely different life to go out as adults and more importantly for them, their son was just fine. So that was the step that it took for them to start using babysitters and going out. If your friend accepts this as a gift and becomes okay with the idea of baby sitter, then having dinners at your place with other couples and maybe a hired baby sitter might be doable.

Also, I really have temporarily separated from friends during certain times of their lives and go back or two year later - the friendship almost always survives, so this doesn't have to mean the end, just a temporary on hold or return to fun times at some point in the next year or few years.
posted by Wolfster at 2:24 PM on July 20, 2015 [4 favorites]


In similar situations, having another kid around was invaluable. Can one of you borrow one for the evening? I've lent my son out to people who were having this problem and I have borrowed theirs.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 2:28 PM on July 20, 2015


1) You are not an asshole.
2) Neither is your friend.
3) It is quite possible that neither is your friend's husband.

Some kids are PARENT A ONLY. Some kids are PARENT B ONLY. Some kids alternate between the two. It is possible that this kid is in MARIA ONLY mode right now. Age 3 is still really little. That kid is still learning how to communicate and developmentally is more able to hurt himself quickly than know how to avoid hurting himself quickly. That is kinda scary for a parent (at least, it is for me). Age 3 is still an age where a parent or other very familiar caretaker may be needed to translate needs/wants.

Maybe ask your husband to ask her husband if they can hang out with Buster for a while. Play catch? Kick a soccer ball around a little? Pedal a tricycle?

Is there a sandbox nearby (or even at the park)? Or does Buster like to draw/color/paint/build blocks/race cars/make Lego-Duplo stuff? Those are all things that Buster could do quiet-ish-ly by himself in one location without Mama needing to run a lot of interference. Does Buster handle stroller rides OK? Going for a walk with a stroller can free you and Marie up to talk a bit while Buster is still taken care of.

Do you have similar friends with similarly aged kids? Maybe have a small dinner party with them so the kids can help entertain themselves.
posted by jillithd at 2:30 PM on July 20, 2015 [3 favorites]


... I suspect Marie is pretty concerned about him, but when I ask about how Buster is doing in preschool, etc., Marie's answer is always, "Fine!"

I'd say she's a bit in denial, then, and is probably pretty uncomfortable when most other adults are around for fear that Buster will do things that make his problems obvious to all, including herself, and might not even welcome more direct interaction between you and Buster because of the greater scope that would offer for exposure.

Which would mean that the friendship is stuck because she is, and may not move forward until she achieves a greater degree of acceptance.

The only thing that seems to me to leave for you to do is project an attitude of non-judgemental acceptance yourself and hope that helps her relax and be less defensive (which would be better for her and for Buster), but no one could blame you for giving up and withdrawing somewhat, because who knows if that would even work.
posted by jamjam at 2:37 PM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


I suspect if you said anything directly about the dynamic, she'd take it as a criticism of her parenting or her personality and that's not likely to be a productive conversation. How well do you sustain a thread of conversation? I find that parents who are good at sustaining adult conversation in the midst of children's needs are very good at picking up the thread. After each kid interruption is dealt with use the phrases "as you were saying ..." or "as I was saying ..." and return to the prior topic. It works pretty well for me.

Another option is to enlist your husband's help - ask him to engage with the kid and Marie's husband at the same time.
posted by stowaway at 2:41 PM on July 20, 2015


I wouldn't fault Marie's husband right out of the gate, I know plenty of my friends who are ALL-POWERFUL MAMA and Pop gets shunted off to the side. Especially if Marie is a work-outside-the-home Mom -- she might really want to spend time with Buster over you and that's 100% ok and her call.

If I were you (and I kind of was, once) I would bring a book to read while you're out back with her, or just give up and hang with the guys. Odds are strong that Buster will have a sibling soon, and if you think she's preoccupied with one, wait 'til Bustina shows up.
posted by kimberussell at 2:54 PM on July 20, 2015 [5 favorites]


I think it's probably the case that you need to invite her out for "a girls night" or "just the two of us" if you want her undivided attention. I have a 1.5-year-old who is in a bit of a challenging phase right now (in terms of getting into EVERYTHING) and I'm pretty sure some of my friends have felt exactly like you do when they come to visit. It's incredibly hard to hold a conversation when your train of thought keeps getting interrupted by your kid. I know this is the case and I'm not offended when one of them tells me they'd really like to go out for drinks to catch up with just the two of us.

Everyone on AskMe projects their own life (possibly inaccurately!) into questions, and I'll do that now by saying that one of the biggest revelations I've had as a parent is how much one's parenting "choices" are really a response to a kid's temperament versus being the cause of the kid's behavior. For example, I used to think that so-and-so's kid was bossy because his mom always agreed with everything he said; now, I see much more clearly that she may have been trying to avert power struggles with her strong-willed kid when her friends were over, which meant smoothing over situations where he was being bossy by temporarily agreeing with whatever he said (at least while we were there). It's possible that when you are over, Maria is hyper-aware of her son starting to get bored or whiney and jumping in to offer him new stimulation every few minutes as a way of keeping him entertained and not having him melt down or cause a scene. Especially if these get-togethers are happening in the evening; lots of small kids lose their ability to emotional regulate well in the evening and post-dinner is prime time for meltdowns.

If that is the dynamic you're facing, it's probably going to be hard to enlist your husband to get the guys to watch Buster, because Maria may feel like her husband isn't going to be doing enough to keep Buster suitably occupied while company is over. In my opinion, not the healthiest dynamic, but an incredibly common one I've seen among parent friends (where Dad's looser parenting style is okay when it's just family but not when company is over). If Dad is around for these get-togethers then obviously he'd be around to watch Buster alone if Maria escaped with you to go get dinner, and that's likely to be a less stressful socializing experience for you both.
posted by iminurmefi at 2:56 PM on July 20, 2015 [17 favorites]


If you can't get the men to occasionally watch the kid (they never do this??), I'd just take a book over next time and when she starts running around after the kid and ignoring you, you can just crack the book open and start reading (or bust out your iPad or phone or whatever). On preview, I agree with kimberussell.
posted by jabes at 3:11 PM on July 20, 2015


I want to chime in with those who are saying that your friend either may not be aware of how focused she is on her child or she is doing it to prevent a major meltdown that she doesn't want you to witness. Particularly if her child has developmental delays, she may need to be providing this kind of stimulation on a constant basis just to keep the evening relatively pleasant. It's also possible that she has so little adult interaction that she's sort of forgotten how it works. This is an unfortunate side effect for many stay at home parents and doubly so for those with kids with special needs. I think talking to her specifically about this may wind up really hurting her feelings, especially if you don't try some of the other suggestions like getting your husband to get Buster's dad involved and hanging out with everyone in the same area.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 3:30 PM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]


Invite Marie out for cocktails (either just you two or invite other mutual friends). Like "hey, let's meet at [cocktail bar] Friday night at 8:30!". You don't need to explicitly say "let's meet without your kid", but "let's meet in the evening at a bar" is obviously (one would hope) an invite just to her, not the whole family.

Basically the first paragraph of iminurmefi's comment above.

As a parent/husband, any invite to meet during the day when the kid's around is obviously (to me) going to involve the kid being there unless you are inviting me to something that is obviously adults-only, for example off the top of my head: evening drinking, a day of complicated boardgames, some sort of physical hobby that a 3 y/o can't do (mountain climbing or serious sports training for e.g.).
If I was invited to one of the following, it probably wouldn't occur to me not to bring the kid: lunch, picnic, morning coffee, a walk, bbq, any kind of casual daytime get-together at someone's house.

Possible alternative: Invite her over for a "girly evening" (if you're into that) of wine, rom-coms, popcorn, etc (edit to your tastes). Again, make it obvious it's intended just for you two ("my husband's going out/away, why don't you come over about 8, we'll have some [favourite wine] and watch [film] - you can stay over if you want!" Maybe invite mutual friends too.).

I don't think having a "talk" with her is necessary until you've tried some of these suggestions where you're making it obvious you want some grown-up time together first.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:34 PM on July 20, 2015 [3 favorites]


I think a lot of people giving advice here have never had responsibility for a three-year-old child. This is not "parenting style." This is the fact that three year olds are pretty all-consuming, especially after dinner when you're getting on toward bedtime.

The problem here is not that she is taking care of her child. The problem is that both of the men in this equation are being assholes. They are leaving intensive labor in the hands of the people they think will just naturally step up for the job: the women. It sounds like this is the norm in Marie's house, which sucks, but your husband is playing along, which also sucks.

You can't control Marie's relationship, and you can't make her kid grow up faster and hit that magical age (around 5-6, in my experience) when he will be less needy, but you can sure tell your husband that it's not cool when he pulls the 21st century equivalent of the gentlemen retiring to the drawing room to smoke.
posted by xeney at 3:52 PM on July 20, 2015 [19 favorites]


I have very, very few dealbreakers for friends but this is the reason I dumped my best friend about 15 years ago and never looked back.

It's rude to you, it devalues your relationship, and ties her to traditional gender roles.

I would not put up with this, and simply pulled the plug on my best friend over it and don't regret it for a second. I actually befriended the other woman that dumped my best friend at the same time for the same reason.
And yes, I have kids and would never treat a guest so rudely by basically ignoring them.
She's got no room to be a friend to you, is clueless about it and rude to your presence.
Spend your time with people that respect you and engage you. I think you should dump her.
posted by littlewater at 4:10 PM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


If you ask her for alone time she may start to think you don't like her kid. I'd be wary of that conversation.

Can you start bringing over activities that will keep him still-ish while you talk and do it with him? Kinetic sand, Lego, play doh, colouring, simple puzzles, cookie baking stuff? Basically so you're all sitting around a table or on the floor, but still enough to talk?

Obviously they would have to be g rated or coded conversations around the child, but at least you could connect.

Meet her where she's at, don't try and force her to change. It's hard being the parent of a kid who's not hitting milestones in the regular way.
posted by taff at 4:22 PM on July 20, 2015 [3 favorites]


Sometimes the parent says, "Oh no, little Boopsie, Mom is talking to Anon now and you need to go play!"

This isn't always possible for a high needs child with developmental delays. What one parent does with their child isn't necessarily applicable across the board with other children. I get the feeling that, even in a subconscious, unintentional way, you're placing the blame on Marie for not redirecting her child in a way that better serves you or the friendship, but frankly, until you've been in that family dynamic, there's really no way to know how it will go.

I can relate because I used to roll my eyes and rail against a friend's refusal to put her mildly naughty toddler in time-outs. Now I am that parent. Womp womp.

Honestly, Marie sounds like she might be miserable--husband checked out and not helping, bending over backwards to accommodate the needs of her developmentally delayed child, possibly feeling like he's not doing well at school and not feeling like she can share that with her friend (or else, maybe he's done fine at school and she feels like there's some implicit judgment in the questioning about it. That's hard, too.)

I think she needs empathy, not judgment and isolation. The situation sounds stressful for her, and I wonder if there's an activity that would be less stressful--going for a walk or chilling inside in front of the television while the kid plays or meeting at a kid-friendly cafe or park. Something.

Do I just suck it up and start asking Buster if there's anything I can fetch for him?

Yeah, why not? Get your husband on board, too. Tell him you're sick of watching Marie run around after Buster alone, and that you'd like him to come join you guys next time and maybe all of you can take care of Buster together and give that poor woman a bit of a break.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:23 PM on July 20, 2015 [21 favorites]


Whoops, sorry, I missed that you offered walks and park. Still, I think you could probably find something that works a bit better for them--even if it's just giving Marie a hand (and getting the men to do the same).

It's really, really hard to have the mental space for a conversation when someone with toddler-cognition is taking over all of your brain with their needs.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:25 PM on July 20, 2015 [5 favorites]


If it was me, I would read the riot act to my husband: "Under NO circumstances are you to leave my side. I cannot deal with the situation as is and I don't want to make a scene and hurt my friend's feelings." Having both husbands around with Buster will help some because there will be more adult conversation and two more pairs of eyes to watch the kid.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:31 PM on July 20, 2015 [9 favorites]


You're not a jerk! How you're feeling is totally valid and, I think, normal.

I like the idea of asking your husband to step up and get the other husband to step up, but I'm skeptical that it will actually work.

What you really need, I think, is to schedule some girl time. Can you meet up, just the two of you, for lunch, or brunch, or coffee, or a glass of wine, or a play, or something? Not all the time, but at least once in a while?
posted by J. Wilson at 4:51 PM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


Do I just suck it up and start asking Buster if there's anything I can fetch for him?

I guess I'm going to go against the grain and say yes.

I only know about Marie and Buster what you've posted and it's nowhere near a clear picture of any of the thousand things that might be going on for Marie. But I do know that as a parent, I absolutely 100% appreciate when people interact WITH my kids and not treating them like they're in the way. They're people. They're not inconveniences to me, they're members of my family whose needs I respect.

I have plenty of non-parent friends and plenty I drifted from. The friends I've kept are the ones who play with the kids, who will schedule getting coffee around naptime, the ones who *offer* to hold the baby so I can pee alone

By all means, fetch things for Buster. And then play with them. Making friends with Buster is the best way to get Marie opening up more.

(Also maybe ask her if SHE needs anything while you're at it. She will absolutely appreciate it more than you think.)
posted by sonika at 7:06 PM on July 20, 2015 [14 favorites]


You are very unlikely to change anything in this dynamic.

You might, miiiiight, be able to get a 4 way hangout going with some adult conversation if you tell your husband he must stay with you the next time you go over there. And it might be better than the threesome of you, Zombie Marie and Buster. Try and see how it goes. But otherwise, I doubt very much you are going to get her to come out to drinks or pedicures with you; or that even if you did, you'd find her to be her old self again. She has a very different personhood now than she did when you were close with her.

I'm sorry. I've been there and it's really hard for everyone.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:34 PM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


I feel like it's slipped into a dynamic where Marie's husband and your husband are happily occupied chatting; Marie is on Buster watch because it's probably very likely he'll have a total meltdown over something at the slightest provocation (par for the course with toddlers at that time of day, probably even more so if he's had developmental issues) and I can see her trying to avoid it because (a) toddler meltdowns are exhausting (b) she's hosting you guys for dinner and might feel really embarrassed about you witnessing a meltdown, especially since you don't have kids and (c) she's physically and mentally exhausted, someone has to watch Buster and her husband is hosting one of the guests so she's the one who needs to watch the kid.

You, as her friend, are kind of temporary collateral damage. Not needed to watch the kid but she probably trusts the friendship enough to not worry about how you feel about the spending your time like this, and even if she feels resentment towards her husband for 'retiring to the drawing room' (love that description), she's not going to throw a fit about it while she has guests. It's probably reinforced by expectations of who fits these roles, I bet if you went back in time MommyMarie took this role too, even if less hands on, and PapaMarie got to relax after a meal. I think if you joined the guys she'll still stay in her 'role' but that makes me sad for her.

I think you insisting your husband stay with you will help because Marie's husband will then join you all and hopefully you can get some game or something going with the four adults and Buster. Even if with you and Marie he only wants to ride his scooter he might participate more with Dad and your husband. I don't know, maybe a game where he has to collect things and bring them back to each of you (bunch of coloured balls, a basket for each adult, even if Marie did the collecting with him they'd both be reguarly interacting with the adults.

I think going out one-on-one with Marie is less likely to happen. She's probably up by 6am every morning, dinner/drinks one night with you isn't going to help her exhaustion. I don't have kids but *I'd* say no to an invite for Friday night no matter how much I wanted to see my good friend.
posted by kitten magic at 8:48 PM on July 20, 2015 [5 favorites]


Oh, yikes, yuk...

I'm not totally without empathy because I definitely had "mombie" moments where I was just a sleep-deprived child-centric bozo who hadn't read a newspaper in years and had in many ways forgotten how to have a conversation that wasn't about children. I'm pretty sure I would've been able to pull it together for a visit with an old friend, but going stupid for stint postpartum is definitely a thing that happens and which can take a while to recover from.

Still. Have you tried televising the tyke? Excitedly tell Marie that you've got the latest (look for a character on his t-shirt, any evidence of affection for anything that has a teevee show) all ready to play for him! Buster! You will looooove this!
posted by kmennie at 10:48 PM on July 20, 2015


It's possible that when you are over, Maria is hyper-aware of her son starting to get bored or whiney and jumping in to offer him new stimulation every few minutes as a way of keeping him entertained and not having him melt down or cause a scene.

This is me, 100%. I have a pretty laid-back, developmentally normal two-year-old, and I still worry SO MUCH about him bothering other people by being too loud, too whiny, or crying too much that I spend a lot of time focusing on him (micro-controlling his behavior, I guess) when other people are around. ESPECIALLY other people who don't have children. I'm not really a kid person myself, so know exactly how annoying a screaming, tantruming, toy-throwing toddler can be, and I try to avoid that if at all possible. Being too focused on him seems like the lesser of two evils.

If this is indeed the issue, I would suggest that you don't talk to Marie about it. If one of my friends told me that they felt ignored while we hung out becuase I spent too much time focusing on my son, I would feel attacked, and totally misunderstood. I think the best all-around solution is to get your husband to get Marie's husband to watch the kid for a while, maybe even take him a movie? Or just hang out in the backyard? While you two spend some childfree time together.
posted by lollymccatburglar at 2:33 AM on July 21, 2015 [5 favorites]


Do I just suck it up and start asking Buster if there's anything I can fetch for him?

Yup. Your friend has a child with special needs. Meet him where he is. If you wanted to go above and beyond -- or to help out your friend, who (warning: projecting on my part) is probably burned out and tired and sad, you could learn some play skills and really get to know her son.

Here's the first example I found on YouTube. I'm not a Floortime professional or anything, but I've spent a lot of time in that world. You can see the woman is doing what the young man wants to do -- play with cups. So, they play with cups. Neat, he's found someone who also wants to play with cups. And then she uses it to communicate with him -- check it out, we can also do this thing with the cups! And he does it, too. Then it becomes a joint project.

Obviously I don't know what's up with your friend's son, but if he has developmental delays and is really really really into his scooter and his mom needs to keep a really close eye on him, he's probably someone who'd appreciate you getting down there on the floor (or ground) with him and joining in in the fun of his scooter.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:07 AM on July 21, 2015 [7 favorites]


OP, you are most certainly not a "jerk." You just really miss the pre-Buster Marie, and hate to be ignored when you all are spending time together-- in your shoes I absolutely would feel that way, too. I hear you when you say "This would be easier if I could connect with Buster, but Buster doesn't really interact" so I get that trying to play and engage with him like you might with other kids his age is probably not a workable solution.

"I suspect Marie is pretty concerned about him, but when I ask about how Buster is doing in preschool, etc., Marie's answer is always, "Fine!"'

Sounds like Marie does not wish to be vulnerable with you about this, and the "Fine!" is her setting a boundary here. Which sucks, because it is an impediment to greater intimacy between you. I wish Marie would open up with you. Maybe think about ways you can make Marie feel like you are a safe person for her to talk to right now.

"My friend (we'll call her Marie) is pretty much 100% focused on meeting the needs of her son (we'll call him Buster) all the time."

Dig deep into your deepest reserves of radical love and acceptance and learn to just truly accept that this is exactly what is most comfortable for Marie right now. Don't ask her to change, don't have a big talk with her about this (see the above "Fine!" for why that's not a good idea right now) and keep trying your very honest best not to inadvertently judge her for this.

For now, I'd stop with the 2 couple + Buster evening interactions altogether, because watching the men not get involved while you get ignored and Marie does 100% of the caregiving work would just piss my inner feminist off waaay too much, but YMMV.
posted by hush at 4:39 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


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