Befriending the Ex
July 16, 2015 12:37 PM   Subscribe

My girlfriend wants to reconnect with a former partner and would like to invite the ex to a Big Event taking place next year. I am not comfortable with this. What to do?

There are two types of people in this world: Those who are friendly with their exes and those who aren't. My girlfriend, who I'll call Lizzy, is in the first camp, I'm in the second. We're clear that we are very different in this respect. Lizzy has several close friends who are former lovers and/or people she had feelings for in the past. In each case, she and the other parties converted their romantic (or quasi-romantic) relationship into a platonic friendship many years ago. I knew this when we met and, while initially uncomfortable, came to accept this about her. I've enjoyed hanging out with these friends and appreciate their role in her life.

Lizzy's most recent ex, who I'll call Jane, is someone that she had not yet reconnected with by the time we started dating. Now, a few years into our relationship, Lizzie wants to explore rebuilding a friendship with Jane. Lizzie has told me that in her ideal world, she'd see Jane a couple times a year - and she wants to invite her to a Big Event that she's organizing. I admit to feeling hurt by all of this.

I suppose I think of Jane differently than Lizzy's other exes because 1) Lizzy was still hurting and healing from that breakup when we met -- although it had been quite a while since they parted ways 2) Lizzie was essentially Jane's first love and first serious relationship and 3) the circumstances of their relationship and breakup make me worry that Jane has some kind of emotional hold over Lizzy. It might sound selfish or immature, but I just really wish that my girlfriend was willing to forget about this ex -- wish her well, but completely move on and not feel the need to see her or check in periodically, send "happy birthday" messages or invite her to anything. Lizzy, however, feels that she'll always love Jane but now things are platonic between them. She says she just wants to relate to her the way she relates to her other friends. This sounds reasonable, of course, but I also feel that my discomfort is reasonable as well.

After many, many conversations about this in which I've made it clear that I'm not comfortable with her needing or wanting a relationship with her most recent ex, I've come to accept that asking Lizzie not to reconnect with Jane isn't really an option -- she'll feel resentful, because this friendship is something she really wants. And I'll still feel upset even if they don't reconnect -- because I know she wants to reconnect. While I can see that her ability to rebuild friendships with exes is a positive thing, I'd also prefer having a partner who is not invested in having a friendship with every single one of their exes. My girlfriend is stellar in many respects -- loving, kind, honest, reliable, fascinating, fun, emotionally present, committed.. This is by far the best relationship I've ever been in. We've crossed milestones together that she's not experienced with other partners (e.g. I'm the first person she's ever lived with) .. We get on very well and have a beautiful life together. This is one of the only things that causes friction in our relationship.

My only viable option seems to be complete honesty about how I feel, but to give Lizzie the green light to reconnect since that's what she wants. I acknowledge that it's possible my feelings could change -- Perhaps I'll be comfortable with their friendship at some point. She's asked me several times if I'd be willing to meet the ex -- I said I would consider it if she wants me to, but I I honestly have no interest whatsoever in meeting this woman.

So basically, my questions are:

1) Is it possible for someone like me, who is not philosophically or emotionally comfortable with the idea of holding onto exes -- to find happiness with someone like my partner, who is invested in being on friendly terms with just about all of their ex lovers?

2) If they do reconnect, how would I know where to draw the line in terms of what is and is not acceptable for my comfort in the relationship? (Tips from folks who have actually done this would be appreciated)

3) I feel resentful that my girlfriend finds it necessary to reconnect with her ex -- as if that need means that there is something lacking in our relationship.. or that this woman has an unhealthy emotional hold over her. Is there another way of framing this?

4) Should I consider befriending Jane, even though I do not want to? If so, what would that look like? (again, tips from folks like me - who don't hold on to exes - would be helpful)
posted by Gray Skies to Human Relations (23 answers total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
 
Best answer: I became good friends with a partner's ex, despite feeling pretty hostile to her initially. Actually meeting her and spending time with her allowed me to see her as a person and to observe how she interacted with my partner rather than to build her up as a menacing figure in my head.

How big is the Big Event? Is this more like a panel at an SF convention or more like a large dinner party? How emotionally significant is the Big Event? If it's a big but not super-emotionally significant event, I think inviting Jane is totally reasonable. If it's a large dinner party where you would have to interact with Jane a lot no matter how you felt about it or an engagement celebration where you're supposed to be feeling happy, I think that your comfort should take priority and I would be worried if a partner wanted to stick to their guns on this.

Could you possibly encounter Jane in a more low-key context prior to the Big Event? Not "let's all go for coffee" but "hey, here we are at this reading, I will exchange a few minutes of polite small talk with Jane and then move on".

I would be very off-put if a partner told me that I could not be low-key friends with an ex. I'm friends with most of mine, and they are great friends to have - we're never going to sleep together because we've been through all that; we don't need to impress each other. If you really, truly have moved on from an ex, they're the last person with whom you're going to get ensnarled in sexual or emotional drama. (If Lizzie were in the habit of getting into sexual or emotional drama with exes, I think you'd have a great reason to ask her to cut them loose - but if she's not, it seems unlikely that she'll start.)
posted by Frowner at 12:46 PM on July 16, 2015 [13 favorites]


Best answer: I'd also prefer having a partner who is not invested in having a friendship with every single one of their exes.

So would I. I'm a bridge burner like you. I have learned the hard way that I can't work well with partners that keep their exes around them in some kind of friendship harem.

I find these friendships awkward, overly intimate and not like ordinary friendships. The tenor of these friendships also seems to change a lot if one or both people are single. I find it dramatic and no-fun to be around.

So, you know you're preference. This girl isn't that, but it sounds like you want to give this situation a try and not give up on this relationship. My advice is that you stop talking about it. Stop processing it with her. Stop having many, many conversations about it.

I find this kind of insecurity to be a fire. Stop feeding it. Lizzy and Jane are reconnecting. Bite your tongue and focus on your relationship with Lizzy.
posted by French Fry at 1:06 PM on July 16, 2015 [12 favorites]


Best answer: I think it's especially not a big deal for "first loves" - especially for queer women. They're often the people who helped us figure out who we really are, and how to navigate the world, and how to navigate ourselves, and who we want to be with. There is a kind of intimacy about that, and a tenderness, but at least for me and many of my queer friends, that friendship doesn't really translate into wanting to be with that person. At all. I'd actually think it was rather annoying if a partner was adamant that I not see or talk to my exes when I've been fairly clear that they're all friends at this point, and I've done nothing to warrant suspicion.

Make the environment that you want to see in your world. One of the best parts of queer relationships is -- for me -- our overt investment in each other as people, as lovers, as friends, as parents, and exes.
posted by barnone at 1:07 PM on July 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


I feel resentful that my girlfriend finds it necessary to reconnect with her ex -- as if that need means that there is something lacking in our relationship.. or that this woman has an unhealthy emotional hold over her. Is there another way of framing this?

"This is someone who has brought my partner great joy in the past, and it would continue to bring her joy to have this person in her life as a friend again."

I'm like your partner--I'm friends with most, on friendly terms with most of the rest, and for Reasons not interested in speaking to one or two, of my ex boy/girlfriends/lovers/what-have-you. For me, it's because (absent trauma) if someone is special to me, why on earth would I want to dispose of them just because we don't get naked together anymore?

It sounds like on some level you feel insecure in the relationship, that you're not 'enough.' In which case I'd point you back to what you said about milestones she's never reached with anyone else. She has done them with you. She comes home to you.

What is your real fear in this situation? Identify that. Once you have nailed what it is you are afraid of happening here, you can then identify what is causing that fear.

As a data point, if I were reconnecting with an ex boyfriend and my current partner insisted on having Many Serious Conversations about why he's uncomfortable, after a while I'd be saying "what, you think I'm going to fuck him? Trust me or don't, and if you don't the door is that way."

Trust your girlfriend. You've made your concerns--which are, to me, both unfair and controlling--clear. Trust her to behave like an adult.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:13 PM on July 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


Best answer: I'm in your gf's camp - friends with a few of my exes and friendly acquaintances with the others. When I've encountered people who aren't it's often because of an insecurity - have you guys had any rows lately that have shaken your faith in the relationship? Are either of you unhappy at the moment with other things, and perhaps not feeding enough energy into your relationship?

Even if not, I think it's a good thing to work through the feelings of insecurity - it can only be a good thing. You can also think of it as a test of your relationship - if you can be friends with her ex, you guys are even more solid than you thought.

Anecdote - years ago, a bf at the time, we'd been together a month or two, said he was going to his ex-gf's birthday party and did I mind. I said I didn't, and he asked (fricking stirrer!) if I wasn't bothered that it might be weird, or throw up old feelings? I told him quite bluntly that if it did, at least that happened before we got any further into the relationship and I'd be able to move on more quickly from someone with the potential to do that to me.

So think of it as a challenge. Are you up to it? Are you guys up to it? There's more to it than that I know, but when your feelings are threatening to cause problems, I think you might need to swat them back a bit with logic before you can react fairly to what she wants.
posted by greenish at 1:16 PM on July 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


1/ You have already done this. You accept and even enjoy her other exes. Evolving within relationships is something we all do; perhaps you should reconsider the polar framing of your stance.

2/ This is something the two of you will have to work out. Preferably in advance.

3/ You can frame it as it having absolutely nothing to do with you. It doesn't have anything to do with you.

4/ How do you know you don't want to befriend Jane? You've never met her. And: see #1, above.

To me, it sounds like you feel threatened. This is probably a question of how solid your relationship is, how much you trust your partner, and your judgement of how rigorous a job she does of managing her own boundaries. If none of those things fill you with confidence, the problem still isn't Jane.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:17 PM on July 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


To me, this all boils down to one question: do you trust Lizzy? Because if you don't, it doesn't matter whether she rebuilds a friendship with an ex. And if you do, it also doesn't matter.

You sound like you are at least as invested in Lizzy not reconnecting with exes as she is in doing so, and so my question to you would be: Why?

For whatever it's worth, I've maintained good relations with all my exes, but over time, we've all followed different paths, so we don't have active friendships. Same is true of my wife, for the most part (except for that one guy who really turned out to be an all-purpose jerk).
posted by adamrice at 1:17 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: To clarify - I'm not the one bringing up these conversations -- Lizzy is. Every now and then she'll say something along the lines of "I've been thinking about reconnecting with Jane. How do you feel about that?" despite the fact that she knows exactly how I feel because the last time we discussed it was the same as the time before that and so on.

Also, I don't see the problem as Jane -- I see the problem as Lizzy wanting/needing a friendship with Jane and my feeling threatened and uncomfortable with the situation. Since I'm not a "hold-on-to-your-exes" kinda gal, I definitely feel hurt and would love to hear more ideas about reframing this and/or addressing the feeling of insecurity.
posted by Gray Skies at 1:18 PM on July 16, 2015


Sounds like she's hoping you're going to change. And, really, in the long term it's probably going to be best for you to change your perspective on this. It's rare to date someone who doesn't have romantic and/or sexual entanglements in their past; one way to look at this is to thank Jane (in your own head I mean) for helping to contribute to who your partner, the person you love, is now.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:25 PM on July 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


1) Absolutely. As DarlingBri pointed out, you seem to have done so with everyone else but Jane. More, my lovely wife and each operate one one of the two sides you pointed out. I am friends with many exes; she only one or two, and we've always been fine with that arrangement.

2) It's good that Lizzy is asking you this very question. An ex who becomes a friend is subject to the same boundaries one would expect in any friendship. And you're entitled to define your own boundaries in terms of comfort,

3) I understand your feelings, but it seems you recognize that neither of them may actually be the reason she's reconnecting. Per your update, the problem may be that you both want different things -- she to reconnect, and you not for her to do so -- and the issue remains unresolved with neither of you really getting what you want.

4) As it happens, my wife has befriended several of my exes, but you aren't obligated to be anything but civil.

I suggest going ahead with the reconnection, but perhaps holding off on the invitation to the Big Event. If possible, maybe they could catch up over lunch or dinner, with you present or not, as you feel comfortable with.
posted by Gelatin at 1:26 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


1) Is it possible for someone like me, who is not philosophically or emotionally comfortable with the idea of holding onto exes -- to find happiness with someone like my partner, who is invested in being on friendly terms with just about all of their ex lovers?

It can be possible - and already seems to be, given that you say you are fine with her other friendships with exes. It can also go more easily if you can come to a place where you are philosophically and emotionally comfortable with the idea of your partner being friends with her exes. You don't have to want to be friends with your exes; you are not your girlfriend. By the same token, she doesn't have to not have those relationships just because you do, because she is not you.
posted by rtha at 1:30 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm friendly with my 20+ year long relationship's ex.

If you aren't comfortable, say so. Issue over. No reason to ask others.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 1:36 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Trust her judgement. I'm low-key friends with two of my exes, and for various reasons do not wish to have contact with any of the others. I went to the wedding of one of these exes and had the time of my life, whereas I normally cannot STAND weddings. I have (in the past) been very close friends with an ex of mine (I later dropped the friendship because my wife, then fiancée, was uncomfortable with it). To put it bluntly, my wife has done many things that make this particular ex look like a friggin' saint. I very much do resent that this ex is out of my life -- even though she hurt me a great deal, we had a lot of good times together and she was a very good friend. OK, I'm straight, but if Lizzy is anything like me in that regard, you are correct in assuming she'd be resentful if you said no to a friendship with Jane.

Would it be possible for you to meet Jane in a low-key event, either with yourself and Lizzy, or with yourself, Lizzy, and a few other friends, well in advance of the Big Event, so that you can determine whether or not you are comfortable with Lizzy being friends with Jane whilst still continuing to date you?

Please discuss this with Lizzy. Mention that you are still uncomfortable but you are willing to give it a try because you respect Lizzy and trust her judgement.
posted by tckma at 2:33 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Best answer: I suppose I think of Jane differently than Lizzy's other exes because 1) Lizzy was still hurting and healing from that breakup when we met -- although it had been quite a while since they parted ways 2) Lizzie was essentially Jane's first love and first serious relationship and 3) the circumstances of their relationship and breakup make me worry that Jane has some kind of emotional hold over Lizzy

Are you feeling resentful, or over-protective? Lizzy sounds ready to take on the risk of being hurt again, but you don't. Is this closer to the heart of why Jane feels dangerous to you? Can you trust Lizzy to navigate her own healing?
posted by heatherann at 3:34 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Best answer: more ideas about reframing this and/or addressing the feeling of insecurity

I'm not friendly with exactly two of my exes. One of them because it was a terribly abusive relationship, and the other because we simply fell out of touch, and I wouldn't know how to make contact if I tried.

In terms of reframing your thinking, I want to first say that I don't think that's altogether necessary (you feel what you feel--that's okay), but I think you're a wonderful girlfriend to be asking this question in order to make an extra effort for the sake of your girlfriend's happiness, and I hope you are treated with as much kindness.

I don't know if this helps you reframe or not, but here it goes. The amount of contact I have with my exes varies both in frequency and in depth of friendship. The amount of pining for any of them is zero. Sometimes, in fact, chatting with an ex makes me so very glad I'm no longer in that relationship, no matter how nice of a person they are. But more often, I've basically forgotten romantic feelings for that person, and they're just someone I know.

I don't want this to be scary, but the one ex with whom I accidentally fell out of touch is the only one I wonder about. I'm not saying your girlfriend has feelings for her ex, just that sometimes seeing and/or chatting with the person again makes the ghost disappear.

So as someone who's more like Lizzy, I'd like to see that person again and more "officially" recognize the friendship, knowing I'm happy I go home with/to my husband. That's to say that for some of us, it actually helps shut the door when the relationship is re-defined as friendship. Again, I don't mean to worry you or plant ideas that your girlfriend is romantically curious about her ex; I really don't think it sounds like that's the case. More simply, since you're not the type to stay friends with exes, I thought it might help to know that for some of us, establishing friendship is the best way to keep from wondering about anything other.
posted by whoiam at 4:01 PM on July 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


Best answer: Look at the big picture:
- Lizzy has been successful in converting former lovers in platonic friends many times in the past. She is good at this.
- Years from now, when she and Jane have been comfortable friends for a long time, you will be OK with this - it is just getting from here to there that this hard.
- You will only have to do that once. After all, now she's with you. Assuming you stay together, there won't be any new exes being created.

You already realized that in order for Lizzy to be herself, you need to let her do this. Eventually it will all be OK, Lizzy has done this before. The question is just whether you are going to torture yourself and her in meanwhile or if you can trust her enough to bit your tongue, tolerate the discomfort and just bear with it until it gets better.
posted by metahawk at 4:29 PM on July 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


Could you reframe their relationship as a sparkler that burned itself out? The metal is still useful for some reason, but the sparkler simply isn't going to relight.
posted by salvia at 5:36 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm on your side of the camp. I typically don't maintain friendships with exes unless there was a friendship beforehand, in my case only one ex fits that criteria.

I prefer it this way. I like to move on to other relationships and don't particularly to rehash old times with old flames, at least not with them. That said you've done this before and could presumably do this again but I tItaly understand your irritation. I've never understood why people felt the need to reach out and friend their exes, I've always been confused why one of my exes called me after a breakup if there was no desire in recoupling, so I have a hard time understanding why some people feel such a great need. Everyone is different but why one earth does your girlfriend need to connect with everyone?

I even more curios as to why she keeps rehashing the conversation over and over again. She knows you feel uncomfortable and she keeps asking , hoping you'll finally just ok and it'll be fine but it wont. So she'll be resentful if you say no and you'll be resentful if she does reconnect. It sounds like a rock and a hard place.

I'd your current relationship solid enough for this? Is everything going well because if not I think your girlfriend should wait and respect your wishes as a partner. If things are stellar then maybe have one final completely honest discussion and see if you can relieve some of your fears and if she can get a better understanding of your feelings.
posted by CosmicSeeker42 at 7:57 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think everyone's pretty much right here, you're going to have to accept that about your partner. The thing that seems conspicuously missing to me though, is how did this situation come about? To me, the way I feel about that would be different in two situations:

1) Jane and Lizzy cross paths by chance once in a while anyway, and every time it reminds Lizzie how much she misses being friends with Jane. Figures, this is stupid, might as well stop avoiding each other.

2) Out of the blue one day, Lizzy suddenly has a craving to see Jane again and wants to make an effort to do that even though it wouldn't happen otherwise.

I'm a pretty trusting guy, but #2 would make me start questioning (just questioning in the back of my mind, not certain) if something was up between us where she felt lonely, or if she was still not over Jane. Note that there is nothing wrong with #2 necessarily either. It would just make me kind of insecure-feeling.
posted by ctmf at 8:53 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think I'm more like you, in that, I do not maintain friendships with ex's.

1) Is it possible for someone like me, who is not philosophically or emotionally comfortable with the idea of holding onto exes -- to find happiness with someone like my partner, who is invested in being on friendly terms with just about all of their ex lovers?

Maybe it is, but I think it would be difficult. It takes a great deal of confidence in yourself and confidence in your relationship.

2) If they do reconnect, how would I know where to draw the line in terms of what is and is not acceptable for my comfort in the relationship? (Tips from folks who have actually done this would be appreciated)

I don't know how such a line is even drawn. It seems like, because of the type of person Lizzie is, you almost need to either accept this or not, because it seems like it's part of who she is. It might be worthwhile discussing these things with her so she can see it from your perspective.

3) I feel resentful that my girlfriend finds it necessary to reconnect with her ex -- as if that need means that there is something lacking in our relationship.. or that this woman has an unhealthy emotional hold over her. Is there another way of framing this?

I think it depends on the relationship and how intense it was. Was it a quick relationship that was more of a feeling out period to see if a friendship could be something more or was it a relationship where the sexual chemistry was fast and furious?

If I were you and my GF was doing this, I'd have a serious sit-down to put all of this out there, because all of your concerns are perfectly valid and she should address them in ways that don't paint you as some jealous weirdo.

4) Should I consider befriending Jane, even though I do not want to? If so, what would that look like? (again, tips from folks like me - who don't hold on to exes - would be helpful)

If you go out of your to befriend Jane, you might come off like the helicoptering, jealous person in the relationship. If you become friends with Jane organically, I think that might make it easier on everyone, but that's not something I'd force; especially given the circumstances.
posted by PsuDab93 at 10:14 AM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


There's friendship with your ex, and there's friendship with your ex. IMHO it's Ok to be friends with an ex (I'm more like you, though). If they're only going to be friends, it's one thing. In my experience, though, my ex was "more than just friends" with his ex. Every time I got into a situation like that (SO saying that they are just friends with their ex) it came to bite me later. I pretty much agree with PsuDab93's post, it takes a lot of honesty and a great deal of confidence in yourself and confidence in your relationship.
posted by dragonbaby07 at 11:54 AM on July 17, 2015


So, being your girlfriends type*, I feel like I already had a good insight as to why she is like she is, even before you very clearly explained things from her perspective.

Ironically, what I didn't get a good sense of is why you are, as another poster self-identified, a bridge burner, which I was looking forward to, as I would like to understand that perspective better!


So, extended, possibly unhelpful metaphors about bridges:
Doesn't it really depend on what sort of bridge it was, as to whether you want to burn it?

A friendship or aquantainceship is often something of a footbridge. It doesn't have too much pressure on it, and it often doesn't really matter where it's going, it might just be on a walking trail where you just visit the other side, check out the view, then go home again. Our friends can be quite different to us, and still good for their perspective.

(Work friendships often fail outside of work because it wasn't cool enough to visit the other side without it being 'en route').

Relationships are slightly more like train bridges. They need to support more weight, and it really matters where they are and in what direction they are going, and it's a problem if that bridge just isn't going to take you and your train where you need to go in life.

Some relationships are terrible, and the bridge was terrible and would inevitably have been washed away by flash floods even if there was no train on it, and it took you to the other side of a crappy, industrial waste polluted bank that you didn't want to visit anyway, and the train ended up derailing and everyone died in a firey, screaming mess...
So you not only want to burn the bridge down, you want to erect a memorial saying "Don't even bother trying to go to the other side, no, not even if you have a boat, there are no picnic spots, there are flash floods, it's crap".

Other times, you have a good bridge. A strong bridge. Maybe just not strong enough to take that express train. And it is pretty on the other side, nice to visit, but actually, no matter how many rail routes you try and redirect in your own life, it just isn't taking you the route you need to go. And that's sad, because hey, nice bridge. Nice view. But you can't take a train on it.

See, I don't really date people unless I think they were pretty cool to begin with, and were a nice enough place to visit on the other side of the bank to justify a friendship.

So, you decommission the rail bridge.
But, after assessing it's structure, and getting rid of the tracks, and rerouting commuting routes (aka the long break in which both parties have assessed that All Lust Has Died) - then hey. That's a nice place to visit. That is a firm foundation and good existing bridge for a footpath. Why would you throw away that investment for a really good footbridge?

It can take yeaaaars to get a good friendship bridge up to that standard.
Woah. Bridge analogy went overboard.
But yeah... burning bridges is for if the bridge was never up to friendship bridge standard. Picking people who meet that minimum standard for partners shows mostly good choices on your partners part.




If I was you, and we've just made it clear I'm not, next time she brings it up, I'd stick with the truth, but say something like: "Look, I don't really keep in touch with my exes, but I'm fine with you getting in touch with Jo, not because it makes me feel comfortable right now - although, who knows, I may feel more comfortable if I get to know her. But because I know you, I love the person you are, and you are more comfortable keeping in touch with exes, and most importantly, because I trust you."



* An ex of mine asked me to be the celebrant for his marriage. His wife asked me to be the Guardian [Godparent equivalent] for their daughter, and then, y'know, regular babysitter. Best of all possible outcomes.
posted by Elysum at 12:48 PM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


Response by poster: Thanks! I asked "Lizzy" ahead of time before posting this question - she gave me the go-ahead and we read all of the responses together. I appreciated all the perspectives shared. Probing/processing the feelings of insecurity, possessiveness and over-protection actually helped me feel more secure - with myself, with Lizzy's judgment and also with the relationship. So, they're reconnecting ... although it wasn't my preference, I have a feeling this will be a good thing, one way or another.
posted by Gray Skies at 6:01 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


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