workplace woes: my boss seems to love correcting + debating minutia

July 16, 2015 10:32 AM

During unofficial, in-between-meetings office banter, I tend to speak "loosely" and casually, giving estimates instead of precise directives. Everyone does this -- it's normal in many breezy conversational settings. Unfortunately, my boss seems to love correcting people or debating minute points, even when they're just riffing informally. I'll be spitballing hypothetically and he'll take that as a super literal representation. I need tips on how to deal!

I work for a startup. We're always juggling too much and things are moving at a crazy pace. My boss is great for the most part (I've come to learn to deal with his uptightness and passive aggression), but this one thing seems to aggravate me a lot. I need to better modulate my reaction(s). Here are some examples:

------- Scenario A: Timing

Me: "Sounds great. Afterwards, we can probably target a financial services company like, oh, I don't know, X. Either way, I'm excited for this project!" (I begin walking away)

Boss: "But X is in banking, not financial services. Also, they're not located in North America so they're not a viable candidate. We wouldn't go after X." (Now we're derailed off-topic. We're in this sticky place where the core discussion is done, and want to defend my suggestion but it's not the right time and place for this micro-conversation because I'm on my way out.)

------- Scenario B: Triviality

Me: "Sure, I'll talk to our designer. Maybe he'd be open to get started on some of the individual elements within the graphic. Like pie charts and stuff." (We're at a standstill, and I'm trying to compromise by tackling the project incrementally.)

Boss: "Well, I really don't like pie charts. I don't think they're a good representation, it never means what we want it to, yada yada..."

Me: "Okay, cool, well I was only giving that as an example. We can do bar graphs or line charts or any other appropriate visual representation of data. Either way, we should still try. Do you agree?" (He then proceeds to nitpick the merits of each type of graphic. And we're now stuck in this uncomfortable, back-and-forth where I have to keep reiterating that I was just spitballing on the spot. If I had to give it more thought than I'm sure I'd have better, more fleshed out ideas.)

I know this sounds minor, but believe me when I say that this happens 1-2 times a day. Over 2 years, the sheer volume of all these mini-shutdowns or derailments have become debilitating for my morale. He also loves to put me on the spot, asking me my thoughts on the fly instead of giving me a chance to brainstorm more fleshed-out ideas. I just want to be able to have an easygoing, lighthearted conversation. He makes me feel like everything I say is so weighty and that I have to self-correct or self-doubt all the time. I get he wants to be abundantly accurate and as my supervisor, it's his job to make sure I understand everything, but sometimes he really just has to let. things. go. He has zero social issues and has a pretty high EQ, but with this it's like he has this Aspergers-esque/lawyerly compulsion. It doesn't help that the majority of our office (mostly engineers) share a culture of friendly yet heated debates and one-upping. I am not on that team (I'm in marketing) and do not participate.

What are you strategies for dealing with this kind of colleague in your life?

posted by doctordrey to Work & Money (23 answers total)

Just say "yeah I'll take care of it" or "I have a plan/some ideas". Don't offer details unless he asks for them. If he asks for them, ask him what HE thinks is best.
posted by greta simone at 10:37 AM on July 16, 2015 [6 favorites]

You can't change him or make him let any of this go. What you need to do instead is stop immediately responding to his demands with on-the-fly fuzzy details. If you can't offer up something concrete, don't offer it.

Instead of:
Me: "Sure, I'll talk to our designer. Maybe he'd be open to get started on some of the individual elements within the graphic. Like pie charts and stuff."

You do:
Me: "Sure, I'll talk to our designer. Maybe he'd be open to get started on some of the individual elements within the graphic."

Any time you would be tempted to end a sentence with "like X" or "either way," DO NOT SAY THE THING.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:38 AM on July 16, 2015 [20 favorites]

Scenario A strikes me as a justified correction on the part of your boss. These distinctions in what companies do can seem small, but they are often important and non-trivial. I'd correct this mistake if I heard it, too. I don't see it as derail to correct factual inaccuracies when I hear them.

Scenario B is a bit annoying. I can see why it bugs you. I would suggest replacing "Like pie charts and stuff" with "For example, just off the top of my head, we might use pie charts or bar charts - we'll have to see what works best when we get to that stage."
posted by schroedingersgirl at 10:39 AM on July 16, 2015 [4 favorites]

I had a boss who did this too and it drove my nuts. Sometimes I'd use informal phrasing for things and she would correct me with the accurate phrasing I'd use when I do the work, even though we were just chatting amongst ourselves -- it was so weird. Even if I was making a sort of joke and using hyperbole, she would correct me, which I couldn't stand because I took it to mean she thought I was an idiot who really believed in the exaggerated information. Her literal interpretation of everything was very annoying as someone who enjoys sarcasm, and it felt like an insult to my intelligence, like she couldn't trust that I would know what to do when it came time to deliver the work.

I generally just avoided talking casually with her about work because she always made it awkward by correcting me when I was just speaking off the cuff. I'd just say, "Sure, that sounds good. I'll follow up with you." And then I'd research and present my idea and then let her make changes or corrections at the appropriate time. Anything work-related, I just said yes and ended the conversation, unless I was interested in having a real discussion about it at that very moment.
posted by AppleTurnover at 10:40 AM on July 16, 2015 [6 favorites]

To be honest, I'd probably respond the same as your supervisor. Your statements presuppose the solution, and I suspect your statements are being taken as solutions rather than ideas. In general, supervisors aren't interested in ideas until they've been fleshed out into actual plans or an actual decision is being proposed.

The solution to your problem is more obvious than you think it is. Stop "riffing". It's unprofessional, at best (because you're giving your manager information he hasn't yet asked for and has no use for), and poor problem solving, at worst (because you aren't considering all options).

Me: "Sounds great. Afterwards, we can probably target a financial services company like, oh, I don't know, X. Either way, I'm excited for this project!"

becomes

Me: "Sounds great. Afterwards, we can probably target a financial services company. Either way, I'm excited for this project!"

(you seem to think the topic is financial services company, but you're opening up X as a topic of discussion by mentioning it. You think there's one topic, but he thinks there's two).

Similarly,

Me: "Sure, I'll talk to our designer. Maybe he'd be open to get started on some of the individual elements within the graphic. Like pie charts and stuff."

becomes

Me: "Sure, I'll talk to our designer. Maybe he'd be open to get started on some of the individual elements within the graphic."
posted by saeculorum at 10:40 AM on July 16, 2015 [22 favorites]

Yeah, crappy as it is, it is going to be much easier (as in, possible) to change your behavior than it is to change his. Stop offering examples or possibilities in your conversations with him. "We can identify and target a financial services company. I will have the designer get started on the individual elements."
posted by Rock Steady at 10:44 AM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]

Your boss wants to know that you understand his preferences and understand what the work requires. In each of your examples above, he was correcting an inaccuracy on your part. That seems legit.

You mentioned company X, and he wants some company that has qualities X lacks, and he explained that to you. You mentioned pie charts, and he preferred some other kind of data representation, and explained that to you. As your boss, that's his job.

What I hear you saying here is that you understand what he wants and what the business requires, but when you talk about it off the cuff, you aren't detailed and are sometimes inaccurate. That's a mistake on your part if you want your supervisor's respect. That's exactly the kind of thing that makes supervisors nervous; it makes it impossible for them to tell if you really do know your stuff. I would correct you, too, under similar circumstances.

To make this work, you need to sync up your conversational habits and your knowledge base so that they both reflect an understanding of your supervisor's needs.
posted by kythuen at 10:46 AM on July 16, 2015 [17 favorites]

Yeah... I'm a lot like your boss, I guess. Don't throw out ideas if you don't actually mean them, because it's really asking a lot for the listener to read your mind and know if its a "real" idea or just a "spitball" where you are babbling random thoughts. I've ignored what I thought was "spitballing" and ended up fucked where the person actually ran with the obviously-wrong and dumb idea, and I felt like a jerk for not stopping it when I could.
posted by gatorae at 10:47 AM on July 16, 2015 [9 favorites]

Response by poster: Thanks for the helpful feedback so far -- I really needed outside input. I totally see how I am inviting him to correct me. This kind of back-and-forth is normal between myself and my coworkers as we're constantly working on and off the cuff, but not with a supervisor figure who is tasked with making sure I'm 100% on point. Especially one who is extra critical or passive aggressive. I'll definitely work on it!
posted by doctordrey at 10:47 AM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]

That's really annoying behavior by your boss, particularly because it puts you wrong footed and then means either you have to defend your choice when it's not an appropriate setting to do so. I think the alternative is to just drop the examples since he can't seem to see the forest for the trees or start jumping in enough in defense that he either begins to see that he's wasting his own time as well. Sadly I think the first option is the most likely to get what you're looking for quickly.
posted by Carillon at 10:56 AM on July 16, 2015 [3 favorites]

Response by poster: Also, FWIW, I should mention that we actually do target both financial services AND banking companies. This was just a scenario I made up to show that he was correcting my categorization of the company in this specific context when both are actually true and I'm not technically wrong.

For example, Barclays does both. I say its financial services during my off-the-cuff moment, he says banking. We end up wasting time on exchanges about little things like that.
posted by doctordrey at 11:01 AM on July 16, 2015

I've worked in marketing and it's definitely a different culture than other business environments. It's important to be able to bounce abstract or not-fully-formed ideas off your colleagues because that's part of the creative process. You're all creating something together. So you are not wrong!

But this is not true in many other business environments. You're supposed to do your work on your own, and come prepared with direct and final answers. So you're having a culture clash with your boss. When in Rome, do as the Romans do and have tangible, concrete solutions to offer - or don't offer anything.

Reframe his criticism as part of his creative process and don't make it personal (unless you suspect it's directed at you because of gender or whatever).
posted by desjardins at 11:04 AM on July 16, 2015 [6 favorites]

The other option that may help if you are unable to cut back on the suggestions is to just enthusiastically agree to his corrections and don't get into a whole thing about it.

"But they are banking."
"Good point!" [leave]

"I don't like pie charts."
"Me neither!" [leave]
posted by Rock Steady at 11:05 AM on July 16, 2015 [5 favorites]

I've been on both sides of this dynamic! Here are some phrases/techniques I've employed over the years:

When put on the spot for immediate thoughts: "Hmm, I haven't thought about that yet. Let me pull together a strategy and I'll get back to you." Then do really get back to him.

When someone takes a seemingly minor point into the weeds: "That's a great point and I don't want it to get lost. Can we table the discussions about specific (companies/graphics/etc) until we agree on the top-level strategy?"

When you're boss corrects you on a triviality at the wrong time: "That's right, thanks." If it's a trivial point, why defend your position even if you're right?

In other words, don't engage - defer to your supervisor's experience and deflect back to a productive topic.
posted by muddgirl at 11:10 AM on July 16, 2015 [3 favorites]

I had something like this - someone would push me for very detailed information at the drop of a hat. (Not exactly like, but it did often result in me spitballing.) After a couple of months of me saying "I don't know without checking on [X]; let me look at my files and I can get you the answer in [time]", it all stopped.

I would say, get in the habit of being super precise or else signposting "I am thinking about this and would like to look at my data before talking about it" and then leaving.
posted by Frowner at 11:21 AM on July 16, 2015 [6 favorites]

"Water cooler" talk is important enough that the term "water cooler effect" was coined back in the 1990s. Don't think that just because it's not done in a meeting, you shouldn't say what you mean, and refrain from saying what you don't mean.

Your boss is trying to help prevent you from wasting time, for example, in working on pie charts when he's going to probably end up telling you to change them afterward. Are you about to run to your office and start working on pie charts? Probably not, but, if he appreciates initiative generally, he can't be sure of that.

Maybe he could be sure you wouldn't proceed in this case, but his habit of making sure you have as much information as possible about his way of approaching problems comes from knowing that the cost of clarifying things before you do the work is much lower than correcting you after the fact. If people do work without knowing all the constraints, then it will seem like they wasted time and effort doing something that he regards as unhelpful -- this can be extremely demotivating, in addition to being expensive.

There's too much ground to cover, too much communication to do, for all of the "real" thinking and talking to happen only in meetings.

If you think about things thoroughly before making statements, and phrase things about which you are uncertain as questions, it can help make discussions more meaningful.
posted by amtho at 11:38 AM on July 16, 2015 [5 favorites]

I am one of those people who would drive you up the wall.

I work in a different environment (freelance/self-employed with lots of contact to clients & people I hire to do tasks for me) - it is a creative environment but if I ask a question I don't expect a fuzzy, off-the-cuff answer. You can do those verbal back-and-forths with co-workers or other people carrying out the task, but I'm working with you for actual solutions. I'd consider anything else unprofessional - including not being specific about anchors, clients, and business terms. My time is money and being off-the-cuff/bantering/non-specific is wasting my time.

So, if we were to work together, here's what I'd absolutely love to get from you:

+ Don't give me useless examples that you think up on the fly (I'd be likely to think you're not clear on day-to-day business).
+ Be short, concise, and ultra-specific. Don't give me extra details that only exist in your brain here and now. That's wasting my time and yours.
+ Listen to what I am saying rather than what you think I will be saying, and pay specific attention to the words I am using.
+ Come prepared. If you know we'll be talking graphic representation of complex information, work out beforehand the pros & cons of each solution.
+ Own what it is you do rather than think of your feet. If you find you need to think on your feet, tell me that's the case.

Recap: communication is key, but it needs to be the right sort of communication.
posted by kariebookish at 11:50 AM on July 16, 2015 [6 favorites]

When you're flippant instead of thoughtful during a conversation in which specifics obviously matter to your boss and peers, you may be unwittingly telling them that you don't care about getting the details right. Think of how your coworkers must feel, having to check with you every time you make one of those casual remarks to make sure you aren't going down a tangential rabbit hole, you know?
posted by Hermione Granger at 1:12 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think you might be taking his counterpoints too personally.

I hope he has given you feedback before. Has he specifically pointed out that you are vague, incorrect or think without speaking? May be you could ask him about this.

For many people, this can be just a way to have a conversation and show that they are engaged. He might not be trying to correct you but put across his thoughts and perspective on the topic. The lacunae he sees in your thoughts are just a starting point for him. May be he thinks he is being your mentor and helping you by ensuring that your arguments or ideas are more water tight. May be, he just believes a bit of correction and criticism is good to help you learn.

Get his opinion about what he thinks, in general, about your thought process, ideas generation and communication.

If he is positive about them, just keep those words in your mind whenever you think he is criticizing you. May be he is just providing you information/opinion. You don't have to take that as criticism of your thoughts.

If he is negative, you might be better off moving away, because basically there is a big difference in thought processes and he doesnt like your style while you dont like his.
posted by TheLittlePrince at 1:17 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]

To add to above, I have had similar experiences. I would take, what I thought was a rough draft of a presentation or document and look for her comments on just the concepts and flow. But she would start identifying the minutiae of presentation, its formatting, flow .. everything.

It made me crazy and pretty dispirited for a while but then I understood that it was useful to completely prepare a presentation/document, rather than a rough draft, before going to her. it used less of her time and resulted in lesser rework.

In general, its a good habit to be very clear and precise in any of your communication. It avoids a lot of confusion/complications/rework later on.
posted by TheLittlePrince at 1:24 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]

I had a boss who did something like that. I would just say in the hallway just for conversation, "Wow, I'm working on X, and Y unexpected thing happened." And the next thing I would know, there'd be a meeting with six other people, and a five-month calendar with strategy dates sprinkled throughout, and all these deliverables, when really it was not a big fucking deal at all.

After too many times of this, I straight-up told her (at my annual review): Look, you have to stop this. You're killing me. Not everything we talk about has to turn into a calendar item and a committee. If I need to escalate to you, I'll do that. But stop this insanity!

Afterward, I still always would say in our casual conversations, "I have this handled, but X and Y are happening and I'm figuring out what to do next. So, that's what's going on with me. How about you?" In other words, giving her information but telling her there was no need to step in or step up. And she would remember our conversation and hold back her "Must organize everything! Must solve everything!" impulses.
posted by Mo Nickels at 1:25 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: Thanks for the fresh perspectives and constructive tips! I needed it. Your chimes will help me grow into a better employee/communicator, and it really makes me appreciate this community so much more.

Also, to clarify because someone winced: my mention of Aspergers or lawyers was not an insult. My sister has autism. I also volunteered for a decade at a disability rights law firm. I do not think lawyers or people with Aspergers all have unfavorable compulsions. But I am close enough to say that when the urge to debate minutiae resembles an uncontrollable, knee-jerk reaction, I am reminded me of my friends with Aspergers who do not always realize that they are being a little aggressive or socially clumsy in their communication. When a person bulldozes through conversations with a critical eye, it reminds me of prosecutor interrogating a defendant on the stand. In a creative environment, it can feel wildly out of place. Anyways, this just proved I can speak too loosely sometimes and was a great learning moment.
posted by doctordrey at 2:03 PM on July 16, 2015 [4 favorites]

I work with someone like this. It took me a while to realize... It's them, not you! That's the type of person they are. You can't get along with everyone in the world unfortunately.

Mostly I just try and let it roll off my back, unless it's legitimate constructive criticism. What also helps me not get to resentful of this person is humanizing them. That is, trying to get to know them a bit, discuss common grievances, small talk etc. If you are going for lighthearted conversation, then keep it to topics that are not work-related.
posted by ThatSox at 12:11 PM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]