The closet is poisonous
July 14, 2015 12:49 PM Subscribe
My partner of 11 years is gay. Now what?
I'm a genderqueer person who was born as and presents as a woman. My male partner finally admitted his attraction to men to me yesterday and I know in my bones that he is gay and in deep denial. The way he told me made it so clear how much deeply buried shame he has about this; I'm such an unbelievably gay-positive queer person myself that I have no idea why he'd need to hide it from me at all, except that he's been hiding it so deeply from himself. I'd asked him scores of times whether he was attracted to men, if he liked this guy or that guy, just for fun (I was trying to get him to loosen up about queer stuff) - and he always admitted that maybe in theory it would be OK but said he wasn't, acted uncomfortable, and dismissed it quickly. I know for certain that I never made him feel like I would judge his feelings and that I gave him many, many opportunities to bring it up. He's had deep sexual shame issues and has shown a lack of interest in womens' bodies the whole time I've known him and this just explains so much.
I'm still reeling with shock. I am going to be very clear up front: I do not want answers that question the premises of my question here, or that call me out for being problematic for second-guessing his identification. My partner and I are very close and I know him very well (except for this, apparently!), and I'm queer myself and have gone through the same process of discovering my sexuality. Right now I just want resources for where to start and how to support him while being good to myself, assuming that I am correct about this situation.
We've been together for 11 years and we were planning to get married and possibly have children. I had been feeling really unsatisfied with the relationship and brought it up the other day as a preface to thinking about splitting up, talking honestly about where we're going with the relationship, etc. The revelation about feelings for men is was one of the first things to come out of that conversation. He told me that his friends have wondered and said some homophobic things to him, that he had feelings sometimes, that it took a lot of effort to repress it. He tried to minimize things but the way he talked about it, it was clearly so difficult for him and the feelings he was expressing were very clearly much larger than the the way he was describing them. He had a very straight peer group for most of his life and I think he wants desperately to be straight and have kids and have the kind of life that his straight-arrow friends have.
I don't know if he's being honest about whether he's admitted to himself how strong his feelings for men are, especially compared to his feelings for women - he is still saying that he's bisexual and still really wants to work on things, but I am more sure than I ever have been before that as soon as he is with a man, he is going to realize that he isn't really attracted to women. Because he really isn't. He wants to be, and he is capable of having sex with women, but when I think about his profound lack of interest in womens' bodies everything clicks into place. He says he has never been with a man before, and I believe him, although the fact that he's lied to me about this for so long naturally makes me doubt my trust in him somewhat.
My first feeling, since I love him, is to be just incredibly heartbroken for him that he's had to be so lonely with this secret for so long. He's struggled with what seemed like unexplainable self-loathing for many years, and it's been completely resistant to treatment, and this just makes so much sense. It makes more sense than anything has ever made in our relationship. The closet is fucking poison, and I feel so awful that he's been trapped there so long. I'm also excited for him that he gets to discover something like this about himself - he is going to be so much happier and experience so much more pleasure in the world than he's allowed himself so far.
But I'm also hurting so much more than I ever would have expected. While I was already coming around to the idea that our relationship was coming to an end after all these years, this feels like a whole other ball of wax. This makes me question our whole relationship. I feel profoundly undesirable having been with a partner who wasn't attracted to me for so many years (this is another "trust me" thing - he wants to be but he never really has been, even when he said otherwise, and I finally understand why). I don't blame him for lying to me - the closet is poison and I don't blame him for internalized homophobia - but all the same, it hurts like hell to know he hid this so deeply from me. I also feel just indescribably lonely; for obvious reasons I can't talk about this with anyone we know without violating his trust.
Anyway, since we're still together right now and supposedly working on things, I want to open things up so that he can try this and make this discovery for himself, but I am not sure how much I want to involve myself in it. The truth is, I find the idea of him losing himself with another man incredibly sexy, especially after years of very gentle, apologetic sex with him, and I could see getting some closure through helping him work through this process within our relationship, at least for now. We talked about the possibility of trying an MMF threesome, maybe getting involved with another couple, things like that - but I'm so unsure how to handle this.
As much as it might turn me on and as much as I'd like to help him transition through this, I feel like being an undesired third wheel voyeur might be the last thing I need right now, and there's a part of me that thinks I should just spend the next few months having casual sex with people who really desire me instead. But we live together and probably will continue to do so for at least a few more months, and I would feel terrible acting like his attraction to men makes our relationship a dealbreaker when he just hasn't come around to the truth yet himself. I think he is probably gay but biromantic, and he still has strong romantic feelings for me that would make it tough to sleep around without making him jealous and angry (at least that's what he told me when we discussed it yesterday).
So, are there any good resources for people in my situation? I can't be the only one this has happened to! I'm really looking for two kinds of advice: how to help him and be a good supportive partner for him through this journey, and how to protect and honor myself in the process without continuing to sacrifice my needs to him. He's my best friend in the world and I love him so much - I want to make sure we get through this while hurting each other as little as is humanly possible. Thanks for any help you might have.
I'm a genderqueer person who was born as and presents as a woman. My male partner finally admitted his attraction to men to me yesterday and I know in my bones that he is gay and in deep denial. The way he told me made it so clear how much deeply buried shame he has about this; I'm such an unbelievably gay-positive queer person myself that I have no idea why he'd need to hide it from me at all, except that he's been hiding it so deeply from himself. I'd asked him scores of times whether he was attracted to men, if he liked this guy or that guy, just for fun (I was trying to get him to loosen up about queer stuff) - and he always admitted that maybe in theory it would be OK but said he wasn't, acted uncomfortable, and dismissed it quickly. I know for certain that I never made him feel like I would judge his feelings and that I gave him many, many opportunities to bring it up. He's had deep sexual shame issues and has shown a lack of interest in womens' bodies the whole time I've known him and this just explains so much.
I'm still reeling with shock. I am going to be very clear up front: I do not want answers that question the premises of my question here, or that call me out for being problematic for second-guessing his identification. My partner and I are very close and I know him very well (except for this, apparently!), and I'm queer myself and have gone through the same process of discovering my sexuality. Right now I just want resources for where to start and how to support him while being good to myself, assuming that I am correct about this situation.
We've been together for 11 years and we were planning to get married and possibly have children. I had been feeling really unsatisfied with the relationship and brought it up the other day as a preface to thinking about splitting up, talking honestly about where we're going with the relationship, etc. The revelation about feelings for men is was one of the first things to come out of that conversation. He told me that his friends have wondered and said some homophobic things to him, that he had feelings sometimes, that it took a lot of effort to repress it. He tried to minimize things but the way he talked about it, it was clearly so difficult for him and the feelings he was expressing were very clearly much larger than the the way he was describing them. He had a very straight peer group for most of his life and I think he wants desperately to be straight and have kids and have the kind of life that his straight-arrow friends have.
I don't know if he's being honest about whether he's admitted to himself how strong his feelings for men are, especially compared to his feelings for women - he is still saying that he's bisexual and still really wants to work on things, but I am more sure than I ever have been before that as soon as he is with a man, he is going to realize that he isn't really attracted to women. Because he really isn't. He wants to be, and he is capable of having sex with women, but when I think about his profound lack of interest in womens' bodies everything clicks into place. He says he has never been with a man before, and I believe him, although the fact that he's lied to me about this for so long naturally makes me doubt my trust in him somewhat.
My first feeling, since I love him, is to be just incredibly heartbroken for him that he's had to be so lonely with this secret for so long. He's struggled with what seemed like unexplainable self-loathing for many years, and it's been completely resistant to treatment, and this just makes so much sense. It makes more sense than anything has ever made in our relationship. The closet is fucking poison, and I feel so awful that he's been trapped there so long. I'm also excited for him that he gets to discover something like this about himself - he is going to be so much happier and experience so much more pleasure in the world than he's allowed himself so far.
But I'm also hurting so much more than I ever would have expected. While I was already coming around to the idea that our relationship was coming to an end after all these years, this feels like a whole other ball of wax. This makes me question our whole relationship. I feel profoundly undesirable having been with a partner who wasn't attracted to me for so many years (this is another "trust me" thing - he wants to be but he never really has been, even when he said otherwise, and I finally understand why). I don't blame him for lying to me - the closet is poison and I don't blame him for internalized homophobia - but all the same, it hurts like hell to know he hid this so deeply from me. I also feel just indescribably lonely; for obvious reasons I can't talk about this with anyone we know without violating his trust.
Anyway, since we're still together right now and supposedly working on things, I want to open things up so that he can try this and make this discovery for himself, but I am not sure how much I want to involve myself in it. The truth is, I find the idea of him losing himself with another man incredibly sexy, especially after years of very gentle, apologetic sex with him, and I could see getting some closure through helping him work through this process within our relationship, at least for now. We talked about the possibility of trying an MMF threesome, maybe getting involved with another couple, things like that - but I'm so unsure how to handle this.
As much as it might turn me on and as much as I'd like to help him transition through this, I feel like being an undesired third wheel voyeur might be the last thing I need right now, and there's a part of me that thinks I should just spend the next few months having casual sex with people who really desire me instead. But we live together and probably will continue to do so for at least a few more months, and I would feel terrible acting like his attraction to men makes our relationship a dealbreaker when he just hasn't come around to the truth yet himself. I think he is probably gay but biromantic, and he still has strong romantic feelings for me that would make it tough to sleep around without making him jealous and angry (at least that's what he told me when we discussed it yesterday).
So, are there any good resources for people in my situation? I can't be the only one this has happened to! I'm really looking for two kinds of advice: how to help him and be a good supportive partner for him through this journey, and how to protect and honor myself in the process without continuing to sacrifice my needs to him. He's my best friend in the world and I love him so much - I want to make sure we get through this while hurting each other as little as is humanly possible. Thanks for any help you might have.
Obviously I don't know you, him, or the relationship very well, but I will say that as as a bisexual male who is more visually attracted to men's bodies but still has an interest in women, your assessment of the situation comes across as an extreme example of bisexual erasure. Your identity as a gay-positive genderqueer person does not render you incapable of biphobia. However you choose to deal with this, I would start by taking him at his word and honoring his truth. You can help him explore an interest in men and still do that. Refusing to do so is likely to make this a lot more emotionally difficult for him.
posted by cosmicbeast at 1:08 PM on July 14, 2015 [29 favorites]
posted by cosmicbeast at 1:08 PM on July 14, 2015 [29 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm bisexual myself, actually - bisexual erasure is something I deal with too. I don't mean to be combative, and I take your point, but I was explicit in the question that I am looking for resources for how to deal with the situation I described, not asking for people to help me parse the situation.
posted by Vatican Cameos at 1:15 PM on July 14, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by Vatican Cameos at 1:15 PM on July 14, 2015 [18 favorites]
Your power is acknowledgement then release. You are going to have these feelings no matter what. Are they logical? Who knows? It really doesn't matter.
What I suggest is acknowledging the feelings and letting them go. Probably the best way of doing this is using the rubber band trick. Put a rubber band around your wrist. When you feel down, like you were never desired, etc., then snap the band and in your head acknowledge the pain you are feeling and the thoughts that accompany it. Then after the feelings fade (usually no more than 120 seconds or so), then let them go.
After that, you will feel them again, maybe 5 seconds, 5 minutes or 5 hours later. Do the same thing over and over again.
Eventually, they will fade.
Do not spend a lot of time going off in your mind regarding identity issues or thinking about how you should feel about this. While an important thing for making larger societal decisions, you need to have a way to deal with your own feelings and deep exploration of the larger things behind this can often be a way to avoid the difficult feelings that you will have to work through before you can come to a point where you are recovering from this issue. Overthinking is your enemy right now. Eventually these experiences will help with a greater understanding of the issues, but your job is to work through the feelings first.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:27 PM on July 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
What I suggest is acknowledging the feelings and letting them go. Probably the best way of doing this is using the rubber band trick. Put a rubber band around your wrist. When you feel down, like you were never desired, etc., then snap the band and in your head acknowledge the pain you are feeling and the thoughts that accompany it. Then after the feelings fade (usually no more than 120 seconds or so), then let them go.
After that, you will feel them again, maybe 5 seconds, 5 minutes or 5 hours later. Do the same thing over and over again.
Eventually, they will fade.
Do not spend a lot of time going off in your mind regarding identity issues or thinking about how you should feel about this. While an important thing for making larger societal decisions, you need to have a way to deal with your own feelings and deep exploration of the larger things behind this can often be a way to avoid the difficult feelings that you will have to work through before you can come to a point where you are recovering from this issue. Overthinking is your enemy right now. Eventually these experiences will help with a greater understanding of the issues, but your job is to work through the feelings first.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:27 PM on July 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Is therapy (for you, for support and a safe vent space) an option? It seems to me that the biggest hell of this is that it will take some time for the dust to settle enough for either of you to even be able to make sense of what comes next, and that's just a torturous wait. Time will take the edge off the feeling of panic that inevitably comes when you reach these kinds of crossroads in a relationship, but that's cold comfort now.
The quality of your local support options will vary wildly depending on location of course, but you might talk to whoever represents the most resource-rich GLTBQ organization nearby to see if there are local resources you can take advantage of (even if just to find a friendly therapist).
posted by Lyn Never at 1:40 PM on July 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
The quality of your local support options will vary wildly depending on location of course, but you might talk to whoever represents the most resource-rich GLTBQ organization nearby to see if there are local resources you can take advantage of (even if just to find a friendly therapist).
posted by Lyn Never at 1:40 PM on July 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
Best answer: would you be willing to, for a couple months, give him an open end and not give yourself one? i know that's a lot to ask and you're fully within your rights to not consider it - it would be a fairly large sacrifice especially with your feelings of loneliness...but it could give him the space he needs to work out what his admission means. you don't need him to admit that he's gay - just approach it as, "this is a big thing and i offer you this space inside of our relationship to work it out."
or, if you don't want to do that or he doesn't want to take it - approach it like you guys are on a break "this isn't a forever decision right now, but we both need a little space to consider what all this means. i won't judge you on how you explore this, but it's not something i can be closely involved in for the benefit of me and you."
i personally wouldn't have a threesome with where you both are right now. it's too fraught for too many reasons.
posted by nadawi at 1:58 PM on July 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
or, if you don't want to do that or he doesn't want to take it - approach it like you guys are on a break "this isn't a forever decision right now, but we both need a little space to consider what all this means. i won't judge you on how you explore this, but it's not something i can be closely involved in for the benefit of me and you."
i personally wouldn't have a threesome with where you both are right now. it's too fraught for too many reasons.
posted by nadawi at 1:58 PM on July 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I'm seeing that there are two ways of looking at this situation.
PERSPECTIVE 1: He's a closeted gay guy who is finally brave enough to admit to himself that he is attracted to men.
PERSPECTIVE 2: He's your partner, and very soon may not be.
Now - if you look at this situation through perspective 1, it's a great thing - yay! He's brave enough to be who he is and that's fantastic! But - if you look at it through perspective 2, it sucks - boo, he's someone you're in love with and you're gonna break up!
The heck of it is, is that both perspective are equally true. And what I'm seeing is that you are totally on board with perspective 1, but....it looks like you think perspective 2 somehow doesn't count or is a bad perspective. I mean, okay, yes, you've come to us and asked for support, but I have a hunch you think that you're somehow lesser for needing that support, maybe? A little?
And you're totally not. No matter how you want to define each of your sexual identities - he's gay/bi/closeted, you're genderqueer/bi/, what have you - at the end of the day, you are also "two people who are in a relationship that you know is probably going to end." And that feels shitty. And it is okay to feel shitty about that, at the same time as you feel excited and happy that he's growing.
I get the sense that you're sitting there and reading what I'm writing and saying "well, yeah, duh." I mean, intellectually you know that it's okay for you to be upset at the same time as you're happy. And intellectually you also know that it's best for you to process that apart from him, because it's your own problem and not his. But I suspect that deep down you are trying to deal with the whole thing by trying to stop yourself from feeling upset altogether, because you feel a little guilty for feeling upset in the first place. Instead, accept that no matter how good it is going to be for him in the long run, it still is the end of the way things are for you now and you need to mourn that one fact. Then, let yourself mourn it.
This is subtle stuff I'm talking about; let me know if I haven't been clear. Good luck.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:04 PM on July 14, 2015 [19 favorites]
PERSPECTIVE 1: He's a closeted gay guy who is finally brave enough to admit to himself that he is attracted to men.
PERSPECTIVE 2: He's your partner, and very soon may not be.
Now - if you look at this situation through perspective 1, it's a great thing - yay! He's brave enough to be who he is and that's fantastic! But - if you look at it through perspective 2, it sucks - boo, he's someone you're in love with and you're gonna break up!
The heck of it is, is that both perspective are equally true. And what I'm seeing is that you are totally on board with perspective 1, but....it looks like you think perspective 2 somehow doesn't count or is a bad perspective. I mean, okay, yes, you've come to us and asked for support, but I have a hunch you think that you're somehow lesser for needing that support, maybe? A little?
And you're totally not. No matter how you want to define each of your sexual identities - he's gay/bi/closeted, you're genderqueer/bi/, what have you - at the end of the day, you are also "two people who are in a relationship that you know is probably going to end." And that feels shitty. And it is okay to feel shitty about that, at the same time as you feel excited and happy that he's growing.
I get the sense that you're sitting there and reading what I'm writing and saying "well, yeah, duh." I mean, intellectually you know that it's okay for you to be upset at the same time as you're happy. And intellectually you also know that it's best for you to process that apart from him, because it's your own problem and not his. But I suspect that deep down you are trying to deal with the whole thing by trying to stop yourself from feeling upset altogether, because you feel a little guilty for feeling upset in the first place. Instead, accept that no matter how good it is going to be for him in the long run, it still is the end of the way things are for you now and you need to mourn that one fact. Then, let yourself mourn it.
This is subtle stuff I'm talking about; let me know if I haven't been clear. Good luck.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:04 PM on July 14, 2015 [19 favorites]
Best answer: and I would feel terrible acting like his attraction to men makes our relationship a dealbreaker when he just hasn't come around to the truth yet himself.
You describe a lack of attraction to women in general and you specifically: that would seem to be the dealbreaker, not his attraction to men.
and he still has strong romantic feelings for me that would make it tough to sleep around without making him jealous and angry
And this seems like a dealbreaker for you guys having an open/poly relationship. And it's selfish -- you deserve to have a primary relationship with somebody who's really into you. His revelation doesn't mitigate the fact that you felt unsatisfied enough with this relationship to consider ending it.
Take care of yourself first. Don't sacrifice your happiness to something that isn't working out and doesn't show a clear path toward both parties getting what they want out of it. Hopefully the friendship can be preserved and you can offer him love and support in that context, but you know what you've been giving up, and you can't keep doing that.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:17 PM on July 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
You describe a lack of attraction to women in general and you specifically: that would seem to be the dealbreaker, not his attraction to men.
and he still has strong romantic feelings for me that would make it tough to sleep around without making him jealous and angry
And this seems like a dealbreaker for you guys having an open/poly relationship. And it's selfish -- you deserve to have a primary relationship with somebody who's really into you. His revelation doesn't mitigate the fact that you felt unsatisfied enough with this relationship to consider ending it.
Take care of yourself first. Don't sacrifice your happiness to something that isn't working out and doesn't show a clear path toward both parties getting what they want out of it. Hopefully the friendship can be preserved and you can offer him love and support in that context, but you know what you've been giving up, and you can't keep doing that.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:17 PM on July 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
Best answer: I'm so sorry, but I don't think there is any way you can be supportive of him while remaining his partner. I understand you are gay-positive and want to be as supportive as you can be for your best friend. But, given what you have told us, I just don't see how this relationship has any ending other than you breaking up, either sooner or later.
You present as a genderqueer woman and you are convinced (right or wrong) that your partner will never be attracted to women in general and you in particular. Basically, you and he have a deep, intractable incompatibility, and on top of that, you were "already coming around to the idea that our relationship was coming to an end after all these years." That's not a relationship that can last, and I think you know that. You say you want to stay with him "right now", but admit you are only "supposedly" working on things.
As far as I can tell, I think what you would see as the best possible outcome is you finding emotional closure through him finding himself by spending the next few months with you acting as his mentor/spirit guide to him finally realizing his true self. I think it's highly unlikely you can do successfully do this, but even more I don't think you should try.
Because it's not fair to him, or to you. It's not fair to you because it is forcing you to stay in a doomed relationship. In addition, by trying to work out your feelings of rejection and inadequacy through him, you risk hurting yourself more. It's not fair to him because (again, rightly or wrongly) you are convinced that you know his identity better than he does. You aren't on equal footing with him, and you don't fully trust him (you say you don't fully trust his statements that he's never been with a man). And, your proposal requires that you stay with him on the pretense of trying to make your relationship work, when really you are trying to guide both of you to being okay with breaking up.
It's going to hurt a lot no matter what you do -- you've been together for so long, and you both still love each other. But, unfortunately, I think the only hope you have for being supportive of each other and keeping any kind of friendship is to end the romantic relationship. My advice is (1) maybe wait a little while until you are not in total shock, so you can be as kind as possible; (2) get yourself into therapy to deal with your feelings of rejection and inadequacy, rather than trying to work them out alone or through him; (3) break up with him by telling him that while you are grateful for his honesty about his interests, you have realized that the underlying problem is that you have felt for a long time that he is not attracted to you specifically (do not tell him your assessment of his sexuality or negate his current truth), and that you have decided that the problem cannot be fixed in this relationship; then (4) give him space if he needs it, but let him know you love him and want to support him any way you can.
posted by alligatorpear at 2:22 PM on July 14, 2015 [27 favorites]
You present as a genderqueer woman and you are convinced (right or wrong) that your partner will never be attracted to women in general and you in particular. Basically, you and he have a deep, intractable incompatibility, and on top of that, you were "already coming around to the idea that our relationship was coming to an end after all these years." That's not a relationship that can last, and I think you know that. You say you want to stay with him "right now", but admit you are only "supposedly" working on things.
As far as I can tell, I think what you would see as the best possible outcome is you finding emotional closure through him finding himself by spending the next few months with you acting as his mentor/spirit guide to him finally realizing his true self. I think it's highly unlikely you can do successfully do this, but even more I don't think you should try.
Because it's not fair to him, or to you. It's not fair to you because it is forcing you to stay in a doomed relationship. In addition, by trying to work out your feelings of rejection and inadequacy through him, you risk hurting yourself more. It's not fair to him because (again, rightly or wrongly) you are convinced that you know his identity better than he does. You aren't on equal footing with him, and you don't fully trust him (you say you don't fully trust his statements that he's never been with a man). And, your proposal requires that you stay with him on the pretense of trying to make your relationship work, when really you are trying to guide both of you to being okay with breaking up.
It's going to hurt a lot no matter what you do -- you've been together for so long, and you both still love each other. But, unfortunately, I think the only hope you have for being supportive of each other and keeping any kind of friendship is to end the romantic relationship. My advice is (1) maybe wait a little while until you are not in total shock, so you can be as kind as possible; (2) get yourself into therapy to deal with your feelings of rejection and inadequacy, rather than trying to work them out alone or through him; (3) break up with him by telling him that while you are grateful for his honesty about his interests, you have realized that the underlying problem is that you have felt for a long time that he is not attracted to you specifically (do not tell him your assessment of his sexuality or negate his current truth), and that you have decided that the problem cannot be fixed in this relationship; then (4) give him space if he needs it, but let him know you love him and want to support him any way you can.
posted by alligatorpear at 2:22 PM on July 14, 2015 [27 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Folks, OP is asking for offsite resources, not for suggestions from people here about how to handle it. Let's steer back in that direction. Thanks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:05 PM on July 14, 2015
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:05 PM on July 14, 2015
Response by poster: Thank you all for your kind and thoughtful answers. I will have access to therapy again in the fall and will definitely pursue it ASAP, and I'll look into other local resources that I can access in the meantime. I also really appreciate everyone's patience with all my assumptions, which I recognize could come off as very problematic. I guess the truth of the situation is that I am just finally recognizing that this person, as much as we love each other, just may not be capable of meeting my needs, no matter how hard he tries and says he wants to. I wish I could have gotten to this realization without this kind of weird epiphany, but that's what it took for me to see that it's not that he isn't trying, it's that it all suddenly makes perfect sense in a million specific ways if it's just not possible for him in this way. The only reason I still feel like a part of this process for him at all is his insistence that he still wants to try to meet my needs and try to fold this into our relationship - but everyone's advice that this is not solely his decision to make is really well-taken. Thanks again.
posted by Vatican Cameos at 3:16 PM on July 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Vatican Cameos at 3:16 PM on July 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think this is like any other breakup at its heart. The (soon to be) ex can not be the one who helps their former partner through whatever they need to do next. I understand the impulse. Especially since it's an area where you feel like you have lot of relevant experience that you think could help make the questions he's struggling with easier, but... it's really not that different from an ex who has to find their own way into therapy, or quitting alcohol, or... whatever. You can't take someone else's journey for them, and as a recent ex you'll actually be the least helpful person to try, because his interactions with you will be weighted with years of how he is used to behaving with you. By trying to help and guide you'll actually be restricting and hindering.
I think the thing to do is decide whether you're done with the relationship as it stands now. It sounds like you are. Then you need to move on and let him know that you have all the support in the world for him, but you'll be directing your energy towards yourself in order to give him the freedom to direct his energy toward himself. You could look into discussing in your own therapy why you stayed in a relationship for so long with someone who you were certain felt very little physical attraction to you.
[Just saw LobsterMitten's comment. Hoping my reply is addressing the part of the OP's question that's about how to help and honor herself, but if not please feel free to delete.]
posted by MsMolly at 3:16 PM on July 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
I think the thing to do is decide whether you're done with the relationship as it stands now. It sounds like you are. Then you need to move on and let him know that you have all the support in the world for him, but you'll be directing your energy towards yourself in order to give him the freedom to direct his energy toward himself. You could look into discussing in your own therapy why you stayed in a relationship for so long with someone who you were certain felt very little physical attraction to you.
[Just saw LobsterMitten's comment. Hoping my reply is addressing the part of the OP's question that's about how to help and honor herself, but if not please feel free to delete.]
posted by MsMolly at 3:16 PM on July 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
Just to add to my earlier comment, I apologize if I came off as harsh. It's possible that you are right about him, I just meant it's important not to bring that assumption to the table when discussing this with him (also, in regards to you being bi...I have practiced bisexual erasure on myself, and I've just recently been allowing myself to claim the identity again regardless of what others might think, so that's the place I'm coming from). But I think that other commenters are right in pointing out that your feelings about the relationship are the main issue here. You aren't obligated to help him sort out his sexuality, and it's totally okay if your feelings prevent you from wanting to work things out within the context of the relationship at all. I wish you the best.
posted by cosmicbeast at 4:09 PM on July 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by cosmicbeast at 4:09 PM on July 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I'm not so different from your partner, in some ways. I've struggled for years — am still struggling — with self-acceptance, and to overcome internalized homophobia. In the past year or so I've found the community on the forums at emptyclosets.com to be an incredibly supportive and sympathetic bunch, with the people there at all points along the self-acceptance and coming-out process. It's been helpful for me as a place to process my thoughts and feelings. So this is really more a recommendation for him than for you, but maybe you could gently point him there.
One of the subforums there is "For Parents and Family Members of LGBT People," which would possibly be useful for you, but I'd suggest that if he's going to use the forums there, you avoid them — at this point he could probably use a space where he can share feelings that he's not yet comfortable sharing with you.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:10 PM on July 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
One of the subforums there is "For Parents and Family Members of LGBT People," which would possibly be useful for you, but I'd suggest that if he's going to use the forums there, you avoid them — at this point he could probably use a space where he can share feelings that he's not yet comfortable sharing with you.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:10 PM on July 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Whether he is gay or not, it sounds like this relationship has moved beyond it's healthy boundaries and is functionally over. Treat this like a regular breakup.
DO NOT have a MMF threesome with this man. Parsing out very complicated sexual and emotional issues in the middle of a threesome sounds like a recipe for an exceptionally messy emotional shitshow. Keep that to your fantasies, for now at least.
And: I don't really have any resources for you to look into, but as the son of a gay man, I can tell you these relationships don't have to simply end when the monogamous partnership ends. People are complex. Relationships are complex. My mom and dad are very close (maybe too close) now. Sure, they have a family that's kept them together but it definitely goes beyond that. There's a lot of love between them still. My dad, with a giant mechanical sperm tattoo on his chest and collection of ceramic penises, has told me on several occasions he would get back together with my mom in a heartbeat. But he knows and feels comfortable with himself. And they did split up and form new relationships.
So, it is possible to remain close after the initial form of the relationship dissolves, it just takes time. Don't try to rush things now. In a decade or so, there might be hope for that MMF threesome with this guy but it sounds like you both need to work a things out on your own for a while.
posted by AtoBtoA at 7:07 PM on July 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
DO NOT have a MMF threesome with this man. Parsing out very complicated sexual and emotional issues in the middle of a threesome sounds like a recipe for an exceptionally messy emotional shitshow. Keep that to your fantasies, for now at least.
And: I don't really have any resources for you to look into, but as the son of a gay man, I can tell you these relationships don't have to simply end when the monogamous partnership ends. People are complex. Relationships are complex. My mom and dad are very close (maybe too close) now. Sure, they have a family that's kept them together but it definitely goes beyond that. There's a lot of love between them still. My dad, with a giant mechanical sperm tattoo on his chest and collection of ceramic penises, has told me on several occasions he would get back together with my mom in a heartbeat. But he knows and feels comfortable with himself. And they did split up and form new relationships.
So, it is possible to remain close after the initial form of the relationship dissolves, it just takes time. Don't try to rush things now. In a decade or so, there might be hope for that MMF threesome with this guy but it sounds like you both need to work a things out on your own for a while.
posted by AtoBtoA at 7:07 PM on July 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't necessarily feel that this has to end in divorce. I can't tell you if it should or shouldn't, obviously, but... just be a little patient on any sudden moves? You are obviously (and entirely rightly!) shocked, hurt, confused, upset, a lil betrayed... I'd recommend giving it some time. Do some processing, poke at the feelings, let some of the dust settle, and then really examine what you want. What he wants. What yall, as a couple, wants.
But, also extremely important... be honest with yourself about your needs and limits. If he truly can not meet them, well, you have cause to move on then. But I do feel that waiting a little could benefit you, here. I usually think that repairing a relationship is easier than divorce, while at the same time fully acknowledging sometimes, things do just end. And sometimes things can't be fixed. But it is usually worth trying.
posted by Jacen at 7:24 AM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
But, also extremely important... be honest with yourself about your needs and limits. If he truly can not meet them, well, you have cause to move on then. But I do feel that waiting a little could benefit you, here. I usually think that repairing a relationship is easier than divorce, while at the same time fully acknowledging sometimes, things do just end. And sometimes things can't be fixed. But it is usually worth trying.
posted by Jacen at 7:24 AM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: A couple quick notes:
My partner was married to a woman for 23 years before I met him. They had three kids together. He always thought he was "weird" (his word), had a weird upbringing in terms of sexuality (the only boy, parents very comfortable being naked around the house, no provacy, etc.), and generally didn't know that gay feelings happened outside of the horrible 1970s daytime soap stereotypes about villainous hairdressers. When he was 40, a coworker of his pushed him against the wall in an elevator and gave him a deep, passionate kiss--one that, to his surprise, he returned. As much as things clicked into place for him in that instant, he aggressively rejected it and started a multi-year downward spiral into shame, guilt, and feelings of worthlessness. He spent those years compartmentalizing his revelation by going to sex clubs and visually indulging himself in gay men, and then returning home like nothing had happened.
I met him because I was working at a bathhouse during grad school. He was at his breaking point with compartmentalizing. I got him talking, listened to him, and helped him convince himself to find a gay psychiatrist who had worked with men who had realized their true nature later in life. I suggest you talk to your partner about this--his situation / your situation is by no means unique and there are experts out there who can provide real help in a private, safe context. Since you're already so, so (wonderfully, amazingly) aware of all this stuff he may be going through, consider asking for joint sessions in addition to his private ones.
This is going to be a time of intensity, and you'd be well served to acknowledge that. A threesome might not be the best situation in which you'd want to provoke that intensity (yet). I would also say from my time in the bathhouse world that you should get yourself tested. I'm not being alarmist, I'm speaking from the vantage point of having worked in an environment that functionally caters to the privacy needs of a lot of closeted men, and there are a lot of closeted men out there who are very sexually active without their partners' knowledge. Again, this isn't a scare tactic--just do the wise thing and pop into the clinic for peace of mind.
My partner and his ex-wife and their kids (and me) are all on great terms now, but the first year or two was understandably shaky. Brace yourself for the force of fundamental change, stay with your partner (as a friend) during the change period, and make sure your partner knows that you're emotionally invested in his well-being, as he should be about yours.
You're so, so very awesome for being such a cool person. You're ahead of the game in ways that will be clear to you as time passes.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 11:06 AM on July 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
My partner was married to a woman for 23 years before I met him. They had three kids together. He always thought he was "weird" (his word), had a weird upbringing in terms of sexuality (the only boy, parents very comfortable being naked around the house, no provacy, etc.), and generally didn't know that gay feelings happened outside of the horrible 1970s daytime soap stereotypes about villainous hairdressers. When he was 40, a coworker of his pushed him against the wall in an elevator and gave him a deep, passionate kiss--one that, to his surprise, he returned. As much as things clicked into place for him in that instant, he aggressively rejected it and started a multi-year downward spiral into shame, guilt, and feelings of worthlessness. He spent those years compartmentalizing his revelation by going to sex clubs and visually indulging himself in gay men, and then returning home like nothing had happened.
I met him because I was working at a bathhouse during grad school. He was at his breaking point with compartmentalizing. I got him talking, listened to him, and helped him convince himself to find a gay psychiatrist who had worked with men who had realized their true nature later in life. I suggest you talk to your partner about this--his situation / your situation is by no means unique and there are experts out there who can provide real help in a private, safe context. Since you're already so, so (wonderfully, amazingly) aware of all this stuff he may be going through, consider asking for joint sessions in addition to his private ones.
This is going to be a time of intensity, and you'd be well served to acknowledge that. A threesome might not be the best situation in which you'd want to provoke that intensity (yet). I would also say from my time in the bathhouse world that you should get yourself tested. I'm not being alarmist, I'm speaking from the vantage point of having worked in an environment that functionally caters to the privacy needs of a lot of closeted men, and there are a lot of closeted men out there who are very sexually active without their partners' knowledge. Again, this isn't a scare tactic--just do the wise thing and pop into the clinic for peace of mind.
My partner and his ex-wife and their kids (and me) are all on great terms now, but the first year or two was understandably shaky. Brace yourself for the force of fundamental change, stay with your partner (as a friend) during the change period, and make sure your partner knows that you're emotionally invested in his well-being, as he should be about yours.
You're so, so very awesome for being such a cool person. You're ahead of the game in ways that will be clear to you as time passes.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 11:06 AM on July 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks again for all the great input and stories! Just to update a little for future readers dealing with similar issues, I think that mentally separating out the romantic and sexual aspects of our relationships has helped a lot so far; I know for certain that our romantic relationship was real and solid and good even if the sexual aspect of things was much more occluded than I ever thought. For now, we're talking about opening things up sexually while maintaining an open romantic relationship from which we can explore some things safely but separately. We have an incredible friendship and romantic relationship, and for now we both think that it would be a mistake to give up on that stable, safe base of support in our lives. I think it was a great relief to him as well to hear that we can try to separate out those aspects of our lives, at least for now - even if it will be very difficult and may be a transitional phase into ending that romantic relationship. We're definitely still playing things by ear, but I feel somewhat healed already just by the process of opening up and talking about these things with him. It has been incredibly important for me to hear from him that his romantic feelings for me have always been real and honest and in no way forced.
Revisiting my original post, which is obviously pretty raw, I think that even if I was jumping to unwarranted conclusions about him, it was important for me to process this idea as a very real 'worst-case' possibility before I could wrap my head around things between us. I feel like by making an effort to separate our romantic and sexual bonds, I was able to get to a place where I honestly don't feel betrayed or regretful about our relationship even if it turns out he's lied to me the entire time about his sexual feelings, and I told him that so that he doesn't feel hampered by guilt and regret over that aspect of our relationship. It was important for me to deal with those feelings head-on right at the beginning, so that I can feel safe that I won't feel so threatened by any future revelations about the depth of his feelings and can grant him honest forgiveness up-front for any deception along those lines. I know 100% that it's internalized homophobia that was the source of any deception re: his feelings - it's neither his fault nor mine. He's been a wonderful romantic partner to me throughout our relationship, and that's ultimately what is really important to me.
I also wanted to thank people for gently calling out my assumptions and reminding me to be very careful with his self-identification. You are all totally correct. After a lot more reflection, I think I have been really underestimating the difference between being a closeted queer woman and being a closeted queer man; his challenges are going to be much greater than mine have been. I also wanted to add for the record (and especially if this helps anyone going through a similar thing) that I've realized I need to be much more careful about assuming that the strength of his repression is a function of the size or importance of the thing he's repressing. Even if I'm totally correct about how hearing him express these feelings feels just like seeing the tip of a vast iceberg, and even if it feels like it explains so many specific things that I've wondered about over the years, I absolutely need to leave open the possibility that he's simply been unable to process sexual desire openly at all, with women or men, just because of the strength of his sexual repression in general.
I will quietly get STD-tested very soon, just to be on the safe side, and I am definitely going to encourage him to explore his feelings with a friendly therapist ASAP. Thank you all again for your thoughtful stories and wonderful advice!
posted by Vatican Cameos at 2:54 PM on July 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
Revisiting my original post, which is obviously pretty raw, I think that even if I was jumping to unwarranted conclusions about him, it was important for me to process this idea as a very real 'worst-case' possibility before I could wrap my head around things between us. I feel like by making an effort to separate our romantic and sexual bonds, I was able to get to a place where I honestly don't feel betrayed or regretful about our relationship even if it turns out he's lied to me the entire time about his sexual feelings, and I told him that so that he doesn't feel hampered by guilt and regret over that aspect of our relationship. It was important for me to deal with those feelings head-on right at the beginning, so that I can feel safe that I won't feel so threatened by any future revelations about the depth of his feelings and can grant him honest forgiveness up-front for any deception along those lines. I know 100% that it's internalized homophobia that was the source of any deception re: his feelings - it's neither his fault nor mine. He's been a wonderful romantic partner to me throughout our relationship, and that's ultimately what is really important to me.
I also wanted to thank people for gently calling out my assumptions and reminding me to be very careful with his self-identification. You are all totally correct. After a lot more reflection, I think I have been really underestimating the difference between being a closeted queer woman and being a closeted queer man; his challenges are going to be much greater than mine have been. I also wanted to add for the record (and especially if this helps anyone going through a similar thing) that I've realized I need to be much more careful about assuming that the strength of his repression is a function of the size or importance of the thing he's repressing. Even if I'm totally correct about how hearing him express these feelings feels just like seeing the tip of a vast iceberg, and even if it feels like it explains so many specific things that I've wondered about over the years, I absolutely need to leave open the possibility that he's simply been unable to process sexual desire openly at all, with women or men, just because of the strength of his sexual repression in general.
I will quietly get STD-tested very soon, just to be on the safe side, and I am definitely going to encourage him to explore his feelings with a friendly therapist ASAP. Thank you all again for your thoughtful stories and wonderful advice!
posted by Vatican Cameos at 2:54 PM on July 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:07 PM on July 14, 2015 [2 favorites]