Should I meet a friend and deal (again) with assholes from my past?

July 9, 2015 2:23 PM

I got a message from a friend inviting me out with a group for dinner + drinks. I'd normally be happy to go, but he usually invites a few former college friends that I now don't like at all due to their bullying and negative attitudes. They talk behind others' backs, and insult me to my face in front of strangers for how I would act when I used to hang out with them in college. How do I decide whether to go to this event (and events like this in the future)?

I used to go to college with these guys. I think the one who invited me out is a great person that I'd like to keep in my life if possible. Some of the others... not so much.

I was socially awkward throughout much of my college experience; the frenemies in question took full advantage of that. They called me stupid, told people I was unable to get dates, was weird, etc. Of course, they were always nice to me when we were 1-on-1.

I have an anxiety disorder and am sensitive by nature, but I think even I can recognize the difference between good-natured teasing and flat-out insults. I had low self-esteem so put up with them and called them 'friends' in college, but now that my confidence level has gone up I realize how terrible they were for my well-being. I know that one of the two comes from an abusive family, which probably explains why he is so negative. I honestly think the other one has antisocial personality disorder - he is that callous.

The last few times I hung out with them, I realized that they hadn't changed at all. They were still the same negative people, and still saw and treated me the same despite my attempts to start fresh. I wasn't even really having fun due to them - which is a shame since I don't get to see the friend I like very often.

The was the first time we met up in years, and they felt free to let people I was meeting for the first time know how socially awkward I am, and how many weird things I had done in college. I even heard one of the two look say to someone as I walked in "that's the guy," I'm not even kidding. As you can imagine, this makes it much more difficult to make a good first impression since their perception of me is already colored.

I'd like to point out that since I've come into my own, I almost always make a good first impression so long as I'm by myself or around friends that I like. I've made some of my best friends since I stopped hanging out with the friend group. But being around the frenemies makes me feel like my old self, which in turn makes me feel like crap.

I feel like the guys I have a hard time with have this image of me that I can't shake, no matter how hard I try to change things; I'll always be the weirdo I was to them in college, and them treating me like this brings back some painful memories.

What do I do? I'm worried that if I don't go, I'll feel like a coward and will be letting assholes from my past determine what events I can go to; if I do go, I'll get trashed by assholes from my past based on how I used to act years ago. If it was a bigger group I'd probably lean towards going, but our party is small enough that I probably won't have many chances to get away from them.

Here's what I see as my options:

A. Go and deal with the assholes.

B. Don't go, ask the friend if he wants to do something one-on-one sometime. Don't let him know why I'm declining.

C. Tell the friend that I feel uncomfortable around said ex-friends. I'm not sure he's picked up on my distress, but I'd be surprised if hasn't thought it was at least a bit awkward. I'm not sure how to even phrase it if I was to go this route. He's decent friends with them so I'm hesitant to say anything, but if I back out of his events from this point because of them he'll probably wonder why I'm not attending anything.

What do you think I should do? Are there any options I'm not considering?

Also, for the guys in particular: How much trash talking would you say is acceptable from your male peers? Where does the line blur between friendly ribbing and bullying? Every circle of friends I've been in (save for one) has had at least one or two assholes in it; is this par for the course or am I choosing my circles poorly?

Looking forward to reading responses. Thanks ya'll.

posted by anonymous to Human Relations (26 answers total)

If this friend is friends with those people, he's not so great.

In this situation, I have gone with something breezy but pointed like, "That's not really my scene, but hey, let's go grab dinner next week."
posted by Lyn Never at 2:27 PM on July 9, 2015 [21 favorites]

B, and then when you guys do the one-on-one thing, tell him what you've told us.

And it doesn't matter how much trash talking other people would accept. YOU don't feel comfortable with these guys, and that's the only answer YOU need.
posted by BlahLaLa at 2:28 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]

C. It's a no-brainer. And don't feel like you need to be apologetic about it.
posted by adamrice at 2:29 PM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]

B! or C! You could always start with B and then, if asked or if friend tries to make it a group thing again, go to C without hesitation.
posted by quince at 2:35 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]

I agree with a combo of B and C.
posted by misseva at 2:37 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

B or C, definitely not A. Don't waste your time being around terrible stupid assholes. There is nothing cowardly about avoiding people who enjoy treating you like shit.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:38 PM on July 9, 2015 [14 favorites]

Oh yes, one of the best things about getting older is that I've realized that I owe no one my precious time, especially - ESPECIALLY - terrible stupid assholes, as poffin boffin so eloquently put it. You don't have to even spend any more time thinking about this! Go have an ice cream cone and ask your friend to dinner or lunch next week. Keep asking them to one-on-one stuff, keep declining without giving reason to the group events (and if they press you say, "Not really my scene, thanks though!" but don't offer this unless they press for a reason), and soon these terrible stupid assholes will be in your past and you will look back and say "ha ha ha remember when I used to spend TIME with those awful jerkfaces? No more!" and you will feel great.

I advise you not to get into it with your friend unless s/he presses you simply because by saying "I don't like those people" (or some variant thereof) you are sort of getting on their level. Just deflect and your friend should get the point.
posted by sockermom at 2:41 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]

Don't go, invite him for a 1:1 event..
posted by HuronBob at 2:42 PM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]

Life is too short to spend time with assholes. Don't bother with B. "[You are] a great person that I'd like to keep in my life if possible. Some of the others... not so much."
posted by Rock Steady at 2:42 PM on July 9, 2015

I am going dissent a tiny bit because this

Every circle of friends I've been in (save for one) has had at least one or two assholes in it; is this par for the course or am I choosing my circles poorly?

makes my spider-sense tingle.

If you regularly come into contact with bullying idiots, I would take a long hard look at your boundaries. You write you are socially awkward and sensitive - is it possible that your social anxieties amplify things? "Hey, it's that guy" - that does not mean their perception is already coloured; it may just mean that "hey, I recognise that face".

I know the easier option would be to withdraw and minimize social interaction - but it won't be the easier option in the long run. There are a few big idiots in the world, but learning to deal with everyday idiots will make your life bigger and better.

In this specific situation, I'd suggest telling your friend you'd rather see him 1-on-1 - but don't burden him with opinions about his other friends. Instead, try to figure out a way to deal with social interactions in a productive way going forward.
posted by kariebookish at 2:46 PM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]

I have a similar situation, actually. My husband and I grew up together and, after some conflicts about ten years ago, my husband absolutely hates one of the guys we've both known since we were kids. This guy is in our inner friend circle (although he lives far away) and is naturally included in group vacations and events, which we sort of avoid if possible as a result.

We recently had to come clean about these feelings to a mutual friend and I agonized over the wording but it went over like no big deal at all. "Oh, sorry to hear that," and then we moved on, and I felt so much better with it out in the open. As grown-ups, we don't have to like everyone, and I think most people understand that.
posted by something something at 2:47 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]

I'd go with B in terms of making plans with him, and then when you're one-on-one, say something along the lines of, "I feel like you and I can connect as friends these days, but I don't feel that way about everyone I used to hang out with in college. I really feel like a different person now than I was then. I know you're still good friends with Snorf and Blerg, and I appreciated your inviting me to join the three of you last week, but I just don't have fun with them anymore. Have you ever had that experience with people from your past?"

In my suggested script I'm glossing over the part where Snorf and Blerg are jerks to you because I don't think it's a good idea to engage with your friend about what jerks you think his friends are--at least for now. Right now, you just want him to mentally separate you from the jerks. Once you and he establish a rapport built around your one-on-one friendship, maybe it'll make sense to explain more of the background stuff. My fear is that if you tell him now, he'll feel like you're trying to break up the band, and he either has to defend the jerks ("They've changed since college! You should give them another chance. Everyone is a jerk when they're 20...") or choose between them and you.
posted by Meg_Murry at 2:49 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]

I have been your friend on a couple of occasions. I was always grateful when someone told me, "Etrigan, I love hanging out with you, but Janie and Stu are fucking assholes and I don't want to spend time around them." It always made me really think about whether in fact Janie and Stu were fucking assholes and whether I would be better off without them.
posted by Etrigan at 2:59 PM on July 9, 2015 [13 favorites]

I would go with B. Don't waste ANY amount of time on assbags, even pointing them out to other people. Any amount of energy is too much. Even thinking that they're assbags is more than they're worth. Certainly don't stir up trouble by saying to your friend that you dislike these other people. Lots of people won't react well to someone they don't know well criticising them for their choice of friends.

With regards to trash talking, I find that the people who dish it out often can't take the same being returned to them. Trash talking right back, and being mean about it, has often been quite effective in sorting out the assbags from everyone else. I don't like insults and "I'm teasing you because I love you" bullshit, at all, so I don't put up with it. Someone who starts in on it gets just as good back, and then one of two things happens - they vanish because they can't handle it when it's aimed at them or they stop dishing it out because they realise how much it hurts. I don't generally form wide or deep attachments to people, but when I do, it's because the person is a good person at heart. People are scared of bullies because they don't want to be the outsider. If you can show the bully that you don't care about them or what they say, you've won and they have no power over you. And really, these guys and their opinions aren't worth jack.

People who insult you aren't trying to put you down. They're trying to drag you down to their level. They don't want you to be confident, or assured, or have a good time, because they're jealous. They can't have or be those things, so they think that nobody else should either. Most everything they're saying about you is something that they're scared of themselves, or they're using to make themselves feel better by comparison. The fact that you're being attacked like this means that you're in a better position than they are. If you were below them, metaphorically speaking, they wouldn't have to drag you down.

Don't deliberately put yourself in bad situations just to prove to yourself that you can handle them. Life will throw you enough curveballs without you going looking for them. It sounds like you're in a much better place now, socially speaking, than you were back then. Prove to your friend how much better you are now. The assbags don't merit a single moment of your thought or time.
posted by Solomon at 3:02 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]

How much trash talking would you say is acceptable from your male peers? Where does the line blur between friendly ribbing and bullying?

Telling you that you're stupid and weird and can't get dates does not fall within the bounds of any acceptable definition of friendly trash-talking that I'm aware of. Doubly so if it's always in one direction (them to you) and you never reciprocate. Anyone not trying to be an asshole would realize you're not into that and stop and keep it between people who are. The innocuousness of trash talking is that it's give-and-take, not give-and-give-and-give.
posted by griphus at 3:02 PM on July 9, 2015 [13 favorites]

Yeah, this is a suck-tackular dynamic, and you have very little power as things stand. It sucks for you, and it isn't doing them any favors, either -- they look like the asses they are.

>Also, for the guys in particular: How much trash talking would you say is acceptable from your male peers? Where does the line blur between friendly ribbing and bullying? Every circle of friends I've been in (save for one) has had at least one or two assholes in it; is this par for the course or am I choosing my circles poorly?

I have a very, very good friend that is an awesome person 1:1, but absolutely terrible in groups -- in a group situation his first instinct/defense mechanism is to trash all of his friends, often by revealing personal failings or insecurities. For reasons known only to his inner demons and his therapist he excels at doing this around strangers, and in fact his needling is much, much stabbier and more personally revealing around strangers than when he talks trash within our circle of friends. Around us, he plays for laughs, and the give and take is appropriate for a group of guys that have known each other for 40 years. When you are in his presence around strangers, though, you never know what sort of TMI bomb he's going to drop at your expense. It could be anything you did in the last 40 years, any incident that paints you in a bad light. My friend seems like he gains social confidence by bringing his friends down to a level that he sees as being below his own. This sounds similar to your own situation.

I finally reached my limit with him about a year ago, after being trashed for the umpteenth time about a silly verbal mistake I made once, over twenty years ago. I was furious, and I had had enough. I pulled him aside and told him point blank and unambiguously that he needed to knock that shit off RIGHT NOW or I was going to dump him as a friend. He could find new things to tease me about, but constantly revisiting the same incidents over and over again was fucking played out and I was done with it. He needed to Move On.

He was horrified and apologetic, and his reaction let me know that my point had resonated with him. Even more importantly, he has changed his behavior since then, at least with me, so I feel like it was worthwhile to call him on his bullshit. I don't think he's changed as a person -- he still opens his mouth around strangers when you wish he'd keep it shut -- but his behavior has changed w/r/t me and what he says when he's socially anxious, and he's stopped bringing up The Same Old Shit, so there's been some progress. Sometimes, that's the best you can do.

So take this as one guy's experience, but it may be a telling one. There is a level of trash talking that's been a component of all of my close male friendships over the years. Teasing, ragging, good natured ribbing, what have you -- it's there, and as a guy in a group of guy friends it's almost like background music, and you become inured to it. However, when your friends start offering up your private fears or failings to random strangers to get the conversational focus off of themselves? That's some self-serving bullshit there, and if it bothers you it needs to be called out as such to them. You don't need to be funny about calling it out, either. You need to be direct and clearly let your "friends" know that they've crossed a line and are being assholes. And not funny, clever assholes, but sad and pathetic assholes that can't carry on their own conversations without trashing their friends. And if they can't move on, you are going to. And don't bluff on this -- if you call them out and they still treat you like shit, they don't respect you and the friendship is over. Period.

Good luck!
posted by mosk at 4:37 PM on July 9, 2015 [9 favorites]

I'd say B. Saying "I like you, but your other friends suck" might offend him and just introduces negativity to your dynamic with him. Do you really want to waste your time with him talking about how bad they are? Just rise above the whole thing -- move on -- leave them behind like the jerky losers they seem to be. He'll either figure it out or he won't, but he doesn't actually need to know, so if it takes him awhile to catch on, it's okay.
posted by salvia at 4:47 PM on July 9, 2015

Definitely B or C. Maybe instead of telling your friend "Dude, Bob and Sid are assholes," though, maybe frame it like, "Dude,,didn't you hear how Bob and Sid always talked to me? I've had enough of that."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:05 PM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]

I think you should go with a combo of B and C.

"I would love to go -- but do you know if [evil jerk friends] are going to be there? I tend to not have the greatest time around those two. I totally respect they're your friends, but hanging out with them is just not my bag. If you think they might be around I may pass, but we should absolutely hang out soon just you and I!"

That gets it across without having to impugn your friend for who they choose to associate with.

A good friend will not:
-Insist you hang around with people you don't like in order to preserve the friendship
OR
-Imply that you're a bad person for whom you decide to associate with when you're not together

Good luck!
posted by pazazygeek at 5:11 PM on July 9, 2015

Agreed with B or C. Whatever is right for you in terms of your comfort in talking to your friend.

Also, for the guys in particular: How much trash talking would you say is acceptable from your male peers? Where does the line blur between friendly ribbing and bullying? Every circle of friends I've been in (save for one) has had at least one or two assholes in it; is this par for the course or am I choosing my circles poorly?

I am comfortable saying that in my circles of friends I often end up as the guy teasing others and making jokes. What you are describing is well over that line and you should not accept it. Trash talking, as far as "best practices" go, requires buy-in from both sides and ideally a kind of gleeful love of insults regardless of source. Going off what Solomon says above, if it's not a two-way street it's just bullying.
posted by Lemurrhea at 8:01 PM on July 9, 2015

"Let's hang out sometime when those jerks that make fun of me aren't there."
posted by oceanjesse at 8:42 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

Why why why are you even considering torturing yourself with these jerks? There is nothing weak about avoiding old acquaintances who are terrible company. You are not obligated to perform the Hollywood stand-up-to-the-bully scene to earn the right to self-respect.

Decline the invitation. Make separate plans with your friend. You can either decline because you're busy/unavailable/not up for it. Or you can say that you'd like to hang with [friend] but really just don't enjoy the company of [pals/jerks] and would rather not do social stuff with them.

If he tries to needle you into One More Try C'mon They're Not That Bad...just say no. No need to feel angry or defensive or explain their offenses and justify your feelings. Just nope. Nah. No really. Pass. Not so much. "No offense, [friend], it has nothing to do with you, I don't begrudge you for your friendship with them, but that's not my scene." You can say this sort of thing as neutrally as if [pals/jerks] are...hang-gliding or golf or watching reruns of Alf, or any other activity that you would decline as being unfun.
posted by desuetude at 10:20 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

I hope that I'm not mis-stating his point, but I think that I agree with mosk: at least some of this trashtalking can become almost a ritual over the years. Which doesn't make it any less hurtful, especially when it's being relayed to someone you've just met. The overall effect seems to be to establish some kind of dominance hierarchy. Although as this happens again and again over the years, it's like the trashtalker isn't even really aware of it.

Allow me to say that I completely understand what you're talking about, even though it's something I rarely deal with anymore.

For me personally, the last few times I found myself dealing with this kind of crap, I didn't allow myself to regress back to HS or college. I stuck to being an adult and "fought back"[1]. If they started in with the stories, I'd interject "Wow, 12 years, Bruce, and you're still a huge asshole". Or I'd have my own stories to tell: "remember when you brought that homeless girl home and let her crash for a week, and you and Bob *both* got gonnorhea?" (Which happened to be a true). When I was younger, I thought of myself as a nice guy who didn't give people grief. I think some people interpreted my silence as ignorance. But no - I heard all of the stories. I just never spoke of them. Until now.

No, I didn't convert these people into close friends. But I felt like the boundary lines were redrawn. And unsurprisingly, I started to see less and less of these people.

I understand that this is not a solution that will work for everyone. Some people are uncomfortable with confrontation. But if I have a point to make with this, it is that the "dominance hierarchy" that you (and I) put up with when we were younger did not become magically fixed and unalterable. On the contrary, it's still quite fluid. It may be more to your liking to follow mosk's example instead, and have a heart-to-heart with someone and ask them to cut the shit. Whatever works. Just remember that change is possible.


[1] allow me to be clear that, jerkwads though they might have been, physical violence was simply not an option for me or for them. No-one was going to get punched for what they said.
posted by doctor tough love at 10:27 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

Life is too short to hang out with assholes. These people make you feel like shit if you hang out with them, so don't. It's really that simple.

That leaves B or C. Of course your friend will want to hang out with you sometime without them around, because your friend is your friend. And if your friend doesn't, then he's not much of a friend.
posted by J. Wilson at 7:32 AM on July 10, 2015

What if your friend would also prefer to hang out without the jerks and just didn't think you'd go for that?
posted by LoonyLovegood at 10:59 AM on July 10, 2015

I hear you on the concern that you'll feel like a coward if you don't go, but let me tell you what it looks like to me: massive empowerment and ownership of your own happiness.

These guys are assholes, and they're not currently in your life. You have changed yourself for the better, whereas they're basically the same jerks they were when you hung out together. So you have literally and figuratively left them behind. Finish the job and don't go if they'll be there. Why give these guys another MINUTE of making you unhappy?

Not going isn't cowardly. It's like climbing up on the rooftops and singing about the thugs from your past and how much whatever they think about you doesn't mean shit.

I also think it's totally reasonable to ask if they're going to be there, and if they are, tell your friend why you won't be. "Those guys treat me like shit, and I won't put up with it anymore. I'd love to get together with you one on one, or if you do another group thing without them. Do you have any time to grab a beer at [suggest another time]?" Don't make it a big deal for the purposes of this conversation, and solve the problem yourself by opting out rather than putting him on the spot to figure something out on the fly so there's no drama or awkwardness. Do the right thing for yourself and your friends will show themselves by respecting you and your choices. Don't put up for anything less.
posted by spindrifter at 10:14 AM on July 18, 2015