Why do some novices resistant to advice & best practices?
July 9, 2015 11:10 AM Subscribe
Why do some novices disregard advice and/or best practices? What can be done to persuade them to heed general guidelines? I'm an aquarist, and repeatedly I see a significant number of people doing things that will result in the harm or death of their fish, and it's due to well known problems. Yet many novices attempt those things anyway, with predicable results. I'm trying to understand to explore what advice could be given that would change the outcome.
I have been trying to think on this problem and I'm not sure what the answer is. I'm certain every hobby has novices that think they can forge their own path, disregarding advice until they relearn what others could have told them from the beginning. The problem here is the stakes are higher, usually people willing to take risks and now follow advice are actually risking the lives of the animals in their care. Experienced aquarists, myself included, get frustrated repeatedly because we know it's going to play out; exactly like it has every other time someone attempted the same thing.
And yet it isn't all novices; I'd argue it's a minority. But a big enough minority that it is a noticeable problem. I suspect personality types come into play, but I'm not sure about how. Why is one person happy to follow every guideline, while others actively disregard them?
I'd like to understand the psychology of this way of thinking, in hopes of working towards changing minds. But first I'd like to put my finger on what exactly it is. Is it just straight up rebellion? Is it a lack of knowledge to understand why what they're doing is bad? A lack of respect for life (oh they're "just" fish)? How do I get to the core of understanding the resistance to follow recommendations and advice?
This isn't limited to just online discussions, I worked in a fish store a long time ago, and we were constantly dealing with these types of issues. Some of it seemed to be excitement, but some of it seemed to be straight up stubbornness. And while it's been a decade, friends in similar jobs report it still happens all. the. time. Some customers would go so far as to lie about their setups in order to avoid being told that what they wanted to try was a bad idea - so they clearly recognized it was problematic.
It's been a long time since I've been a novice, so I am really struggling to put myself in those shoes again. I feel like it is common to the human condition, and yet I'm struggling to sympathize and understand. I stumbled across Bravangelism from /r/abrathatfits/ which got me thinking on how both the problem exists in most places, but also that I needed to think hard on what causes resistance to advice/best practices before I could start to think about how to address it.
I have been trying to think on this problem and I'm not sure what the answer is. I'm certain every hobby has novices that think they can forge their own path, disregarding advice until they relearn what others could have told them from the beginning. The problem here is the stakes are higher, usually people willing to take risks and now follow advice are actually risking the lives of the animals in their care. Experienced aquarists, myself included, get frustrated repeatedly because we know it's going to play out; exactly like it has every other time someone attempted the same thing.
And yet it isn't all novices; I'd argue it's a minority. But a big enough minority that it is a noticeable problem. I suspect personality types come into play, but I'm not sure about how. Why is one person happy to follow every guideline, while others actively disregard them?
I'd like to understand the psychology of this way of thinking, in hopes of working towards changing minds. But first I'd like to put my finger on what exactly it is. Is it just straight up rebellion? Is it a lack of knowledge to understand why what they're doing is bad? A lack of respect for life (oh they're "just" fish)? How do I get to the core of understanding the resistance to follow recommendations and advice?
This isn't limited to just online discussions, I worked in a fish store a long time ago, and we were constantly dealing with these types of issues. Some of it seemed to be excitement, but some of it seemed to be straight up stubbornness. And while it's been a decade, friends in similar jobs report it still happens all. the. time. Some customers would go so far as to lie about their setups in order to avoid being told that what they wanted to try was a bad idea - so they clearly recognized it was problematic.
It's been a long time since I've been a novice, so I am really struggling to put myself in those shoes again. I feel like it is common to the human condition, and yet I'm struggling to sympathize and understand. I stumbled across Bravangelism from /r/abrathatfits/ which got me thinking on how both the problem exists in most places, but also that I needed to think hard on what causes resistance to advice/best practices before I could start to think about how to address it.
One way to deal with this is to act like you're letting them in on a secret. "You know, most people will just do x, but a real pro knows that if you do y you get better results every time."
Then it's not "hey idiot, stop being an idiot;" it's "hey future expert, have some secret expert knowledge."
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:18 AM on July 9, 2015 [26 favorites]
Then it's not "hey idiot, stop being an idiot;" it's "hey future expert, have some secret expert knowledge."
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:18 AM on July 9, 2015 [26 favorites]
Some things:
Incorrectly applying knowledge from a domain they know to one they don't. Or knowledge from another era (like their childhood.)
Expensive best practices are often perceived as a scam, especially if the person selling them makes the profit.
Novices don't know enough to tell who is the expert with the actual best practices, and who are uninformed novices.
posted by smackfu at 11:19 AM on July 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
Incorrectly applying knowledge from a domain they know to one they don't. Or knowledge from another era (like their childhood.)
Expensive best practices are often perceived as a scam, especially if the person selling them makes the profit.
Novices don't know enough to tell who is the expert with the actual best practices, and who are uninformed novices.
posted by smackfu at 11:19 AM on July 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
One thing that's helped me (both learning and teaching) is, instead of telling people what is right, tell them why it's right. This both shows them why the thing you are saying is important, and also (hopefully) appeals to their desire to learn. I'm not a fish guy, but aquarium maintenance seems super complicated and technical, and I could easily see someone taking shortcuts.
One time I had to balance a hot tub. Even that was hard and no one lived in it.
posted by Phredward at 11:26 AM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
One time I had to balance a hot tub. Even that was hard and no one lived in it.
posted by Phredward at 11:26 AM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
Why do some novices disregard advice and/or best practices? What can be done to persuade them to heed general guidelines? I'm an aquarist, and repeatedly I see a significant number of people doing things that will result in the harm or death of their fish.
Stop talking about "best practices". If failing to follow the advice will result in death, you are talking about "necessary practices".
When you say "best practices" your audience will think that they can get by with "pretty good practices" instead. They'll think that "best practices" are for people who are experts working at an advanced level, doing the best job so they can put together award winning tanks. Your audience members know they're not experienced, they know they're not the best, so they think "best practices" are something they will get to later, after they're experienced.
So stop telling people about "best practices" and tell them instead about "necessary practices".
posted by alms at 11:27 AM on July 9, 2015 [13 favorites]
Stop talking about "best practices". If failing to follow the advice will result in death, you are talking about "necessary practices".
When you say "best practices" your audience will think that they can get by with "pretty good practices" instead. They'll think that "best practices" are for people who are experts working at an advanced level, doing the best job so they can put together award winning tanks. Your audience members know they're not experienced, they know they're not the best, so they think "best practices" are something they will get to later, after they're experienced.
So stop telling people about "best practices" and tell them instead about "necessary practices".
posted by alms at 11:27 AM on July 9, 2015 [13 favorites]
There was an interesting post on the Blue not long ago. It was about cooking, but I think it applies somewhat universally. Here is an excerpt from a link in the post:
You mentioned that many people like to make substitutions when they’re cooking. What do you attribute that to?
I think it’s because people have so few creative outlets in life. If you go back a hundred years, when people lived in more isolated communities, they’d would sit around in Appalachia, say, and sing—or if they couldn’t sing, they’d pick up an instrument. People were freer to do a wide variety of things. People weren’t so vertically positioned. Now, if you’re not a musician, you can’t play music. So I think cooking is the last frontier where people think they can demonstrate some level of creativity, substituting ingredients, leaving ingredients out, changing the recipe, all of those things are put under the banner of being creative. And yet most of the time when you do that it doesn’t work out very well. And if you think about it, if you go back a hundred years, there was no great value put on creativity in the kitchen. You would make the recipe that your mother made or your uncle made, and you would make it the same way, and there was a great love of and comfort in repeating the recipe.
In this new America that’s so focused on the individual, people seem to think the individual has to create their own version of a recipe. And I think that’s just nonsense. If you have to adapt a recipe because you can’t get an ingredient, or once you get very good at a recipe you want to change it a little, fine, but we seem to be embarrassed to make a recipe the way someone else told us to make it because that doesn’t fit into our view of ourselves.
Take classical musicians: they’re perfectly happy to play Beethoven’s 5th the way it’s written. They’re not out there trying to improvise Beethoven. But if you get to rock and roll, which is more modern, everyone wants to stand up and do a jam band and play their own stuff. That’s the difference. The classical music is like the classical recipe—you play what’s on the sheet music, you cook what’s in the cookbook—and now everyone wants to be Jerry Garcia.
posted by tempestuoso at 11:27 AM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
You mentioned that many people like to make substitutions when they’re cooking. What do you attribute that to?
I think it’s because people have so few creative outlets in life. If you go back a hundred years, when people lived in more isolated communities, they’d would sit around in Appalachia, say, and sing—or if they couldn’t sing, they’d pick up an instrument. People were freer to do a wide variety of things. People weren’t so vertically positioned. Now, if you’re not a musician, you can’t play music. So I think cooking is the last frontier where people think they can demonstrate some level of creativity, substituting ingredients, leaving ingredients out, changing the recipe, all of those things are put under the banner of being creative. And yet most of the time when you do that it doesn’t work out very well. And if you think about it, if you go back a hundred years, there was no great value put on creativity in the kitchen. You would make the recipe that your mother made or your uncle made, and you would make it the same way, and there was a great love of and comfort in repeating the recipe.
In this new America that’s so focused on the individual, people seem to think the individual has to create their own version of a recipe. And I think that’s just nonsense. If you have to adapt a recipe because you can’t get an ingredient, or once you get very good at a recipe you want to change it a little, fine, but we seem to be embarrassed to make a recipe the way someone else told us to make it because that doesn’t fit into our view of ourselves.
Take classical musicians: they’re perfectly happy to play Beethoven’s 5th the way it’s written. They’re not out there trying to improvise Beethoven. But if you get to rock and roll, which is more modern, everyone wants to stand up and do a jam band and play their own stuff. That’s the difference. The classical music is like the classical recipe—you play what’s on the sheet music, you cook what’s in the cookbook—and now everyone wants to be Jerry Garcia.
posted by tempestuoso at 11:27 AM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
I think it's because it requires a certain level of competence in order to actually judge how competent one is. This is depicted will a the Dunning Krueger effect.
As such, someone going into a new hobby/job/whatever with insufficient knowledge to judge competancy will think that they know enough and you're just being more fancy than needed. Thus someone who had fish when they were younger* knows what they are doing and the advice that they're hearing is just people trying to separate them from their money**.
I'll second alms' thought that "pretty good practices can sometimes get one pretty far. But again, that depends upong knowing enough to be able to properly judge what's pretty good vs. WhatWereYouThinking?
*They won a gold fish from a carnival and their parents bought a one gallon tank and fish food. It lived 3 months, but they remember it as years.
**It doesn't help that yes, some store people will try to upsell any / everything
posted by nobeagle at 11:28 AM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
As such, someone going into a new hobby/job/whatever with insufficient knowledge to judge competancy will think that they know enough and you're just being more fancy than needed. Thus someone who had fish when they were younger* knows what they are doing and the advice that they're hearing is just people trying to separate them from their money**.
I'll second alms' thought that "pretty good practices can sometimes get one pretty far. But again, that depends upong knowing enough to be able to properly judge what's pretty good vs. WhatWereYouThinking?
*They won a gold fish from a carnival and their parents bought a one gallon tank and fish food. It lived 3 months, but they remember it as years.
**It doesn't help that yes, some store people will try to upsell any / everything
posted by nobeagle at 11:28 AM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
To me, it's an issue of trust and respect. Both of these have to be earned over time, and the neophyte hasn't spent enough time on the problem to trust advice ("are you another random guy on the internet?") or know what should be respected.
If I demanded that you mark this as the best answer right now, you'd have to weigh my reputation (none) along with what I said (almost nothing). Rightfully, the trust relationship isn't there.
(But yeah, having been through "why is my fish tank water all green and mooshy this morning?", I'm grateful for the advice of nearby and virtual experts.)
posted by scruss at 11:30 AM on July 9, 2015
If I demanded that you mark this as the best answer right now, you'd have to weigh my reputation (none) along with what I said (almost nothing). Rightfully, the trust relationship isn't there.
(But yeah, having been through "why is my fish tank water all green and mooshy this morning?", I'm grateful for the advice of nearby and virtual experts.)
posted by scruss at 11:30 AM on July 9, 2015
1. Some people balk at any kind of authority. "Oh you think you know, well I'll show you" even if what you are telling is nothing controversial but something proven over many years by many people. This is the hardest group to reach because they have their heads up their asses, and not a lot you can do about that.
2. Sometimes we think that our experience in a related area is good enough. For example, I worked as a special needs aide in a school working with sever cognitive disabilities. We would have new employees in our summer program who came from the local blind school, where there students often have cognitive disabilities too, but not to the same degree as our students. So they would for example, leave a student alone, even if for a minute, and that is a huge no-no when working with people who need 100% supervision 100% of the time. These people are easier to teach because you can reason with them, and explain why their experience doesn't translate as smoothly as they think.
3. Other people think small tweaks won't make a difference. They like to wing it, and this is the type I'm most likely to fall into. I think here, you really need good evidence for why a seemingly small tweak is a bad idea. If you don't tell me what proof you have this is a bad idea, I'll probably try it anyway. Reason or logic isn't enough here.
posted by Aranquis at 11:33 AM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
2. Sometimes we think that our experience in a related area is good enough. For example, I worked as a special needs aide in a school working with sever cognitive disabilities. We would have new employees in our summer program who came from the local blind school, where there students often have cognitive disabilities too, but not to the same degree as our students. So they would for example, leave a student alone, even if for a minute, and that is a huge no-no when working with people who need 100% supervision 100% of the time. These people are easier to teach because you can reason with them, and explain why their experience doesn't translate as smoothly as they think.
3. Other people think small tweaks won't make a difference. They like to wing it, and this is the type I'm most likely to fall into. I think here, you really need good evidence for why a seemingly small tweak is a bad idea. If you don't tell me what proof you have this is a bad idea, I'll probably try it anyway. Reason or logic isn't enough here.
posted by Aranquis at 11:33 AM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
A few thoughts:
- Tone really matters. Sometimes advice from veterans is conveyed in a condescending manner, and people can be resistant to following advice from those who seem to look down on them.
- Most of us have received bad advice at various times from people who set themselves up as experts. This is particularly true of store clerks, mechanics, and others who profit from upselling us.
- In some fields there are differing and opposed schools of authorities, which may make people less likely to accept a particular person as a source of unquestioned expertise.
- The consequences of doing something slightly sub-optimally aren't so bad in many areas, which makes many of us comfortable with winging it when starting something new. If I followed best practices in training as a runner, I would probably have better times and be able to run longer distances. However, I still enjoy running and am more fit than when I started to run even if I'm using a sub-optimal, self-created training plan. Obviously, killing a bunch of fish needlessly is a different matter, but I get how the attitude one develops in one hobby might carry into another.
posted by Area Man at 11:39 AM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
- Tone really matters. Sometimes advice from veterans is conveyed in a condescending manner, and people can be resistant to following advice from those who seem to look down on them.
- Most of us have received bad advice at various times from people who set themselves up as experts. This is particularly true of store clerks, mechanics, and others who profit from upselling us.
- In some fields there are differing and opposed schools of authorities, which may make people less likely to accept a particular person as a source of unquestioned expertise.
- The consequences of doing something slightly sub-optimally aren't so bad in many areas, which makes many of us comfortable with winging it when starting something new. If I followed best practices in training as a runner, I would probably have better times and be able to run longer distances. However, I still enjoy running and am more fit than when I started to run even if I'm using a sub-optimal, self-created training plan. Obviously, killing a bunch of fish needlessly is a different matter, but I get how the attitude one develops in one hobby might carry into another.
posted by Area Man at 11:39 AM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
I've learned that many people need to make their own mistakes. This doesn't mean that I don't share my experience with others. However, my phrasing has changed from "this is the best way" to something more like "this is what worked for me - you might want to try something else or prove to yourself that other thing doesn't work. Let me know what happens either way." I've also learned to have almost zero investment in their outcome - because it's their outcome, not mine.
There's also people out there who want reassurance that they made the right choice. For those, I make it clear that I wouldn't have gone that way, but I hope it works out for them.
posted by NoRelationToLea at 11:50 AM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
There's also people out there who want reassurance that they made the right choice. For those, I make it clear that I wouldn't have gone that way, but I hope it works out for them.
posted by NoRelationToLea at 11:50 AM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's also kind of frustrating/demoralizing to a lot of people to be at a point where literally any problem you encounter has a solution, and you didn't come up with it. Every single little thing you do, someone either says "Good job, you did the thing that every experienced person would have" or "Bad job, you failed to do the thing that every experienced person would have." People want to feel like they're discovering/creating something themselves, not just constantly retreading the same ground as those who have come before them - even though that's really how most novices must begin, until they get to a certain point.
posted by Tomorrowful at 12:06 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Tomorrowful at 12:06 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think it can certainly be a combination of things. One other possibility to throw into the ring: there are different styles of learning when it comes to things that can be complex. Some people learn visually, some learn best by auditory input, some reading, and some people learn best by doing hands-on things. That last class sometimes includes a "figure it out as you go along" kind of people, and often mistakes are a natural part of self-correction that will eventually get you to a workable end. These kinds of people may ignore instruction manuals or instructions (unless they come back to it through a piece-meal process), and if there is something that they endeavor to do that is overly complicated, having someone explain a long set of complicated instructions sometimes will not stick. So, there may be some basic research done, but there's often a point of complexity in which it is literally in one ear and out the other. I'm not sure how much this relates to fish, or how complicated "doing it right" could be in your example, but this class of people are on the spectrum, from doing basic research to getting the ball rolling, to not wanting any input and figuring it out as they go along. I tend to fall on the better end of the spectrum on this one, as I'll certainly read an instruction manual, especially if I knew something was vital. However, a long verbal conversation about complexities will prompt me to problem-solve in a supplementary way.
posted by SpacemanStix at 12:27 PM on July 9, 2015
posted by SpacemanStix at 12:27 PM on July 9, 2015
Hi. I'm one of your customers. I bought two goldfish to put in a four gallon fishbowl. When asked by the employee at the store what kind of setup I had, I told her I had a four gallon bowl with water in it. She was horrified and didn't want to sell me the fish. She tried to sell me a proper aquarium, but I already had the bowl and I wanted to put fish in it.
Yes, I am aware that goldfish require much more space to thrive. I am also aware that they can survive and not get sick in a space this size with regular water changing.
It doesn't distress me that my fish are not living the best life they possibly could. And if they only live four years rather than eight, I'll just end up buying twice as many goldfish. I know that, if you care a lot about fish, that makes me sound like a sociopath. But I don't care a lot about fish, I just like having them around.
So, to answer your question, it often comes down to different values and different risk tolerances. I also don't wear a bicycle helmet.
She eventually sold me the fish, but not without a lot of eye-rolling and dirty looks. I will not go back to that pet store. The fish are doing fine.
posted by Vodka Martini on the Socks at 1:03 PM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yes, I am aware that goldfish require much more space to thrive. I am also aware that they can survive and not get sick in a space this size with regular water changing.
It doesn't distress me that my fish are not living the best life they possibly could. And if they only live four years rather than eight, I'll just end up buying twice as many goldfish. I know that, if you care a lot about fish, that makes me sound like a sociopath. But I don't care a lot about fish, I just like having them around.
So, to answer your question, it often comes down to different values and different risk tolerances. I also don't wear a bicycle helmet.
She eventually sold me the fish, but not without a lot of eye-rolling and dirty looks. I will not go back to that pet store. The fish are doing fine.
posted by Vodka Martini on the Socks at 1:03 PM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
Huh, interesting, when I started reading the thread I thought "Oh my God yes, that is so annoying!" but as I went on I realised I do it too in some areas mentioned, e.g.
- sewing and other DIY, things like "measure twice, cut once". Hm yeah. I take the shortcut over and over, even tho I've repeatedly ruined projects / wasted material etc. Why? Cuz the best practice is boring, I am impatient and overconfident in my precision/abilities, and the stakes are low. If I'm using super-expensive materials, I'd never skip the best practice.
- running and fitness - I don't do my rehab stuff and my stretching as diligently as I should. Why? It's boring, results are slow (but the stakes are somewhat higher - I may end up with chronic problems. But I am overly optimistic I guess).
I'm not sure if this helps you - I'd never take a shortcut where an animal life is at risk. (I'd never be the customer Vodka Martini describes. I fret immensely about my cat having suboptimal living conditions and am actually looking to move so he can have more space to run around in.) So I guess if there are fish owners who think "fish dying = low stakes", there is little you can do?
posted by ClarissaWAM at 1:15 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
- sewing and other DIY, things like "measure twice, cut once". Hm yeah. I take the shortcut over and over, even tho I've repeatedly ruined projects / wasted material etc. Why? Cuz the best practice is boring, I am impatient and overconfident in my precision/abilities, and the stakes are low. If I'm using super-expensive materials, I'd never skip the best practice.
- running and fitness - I don't do my rehab stuff and my stretching as diligently as I should. Why? It's boring, results are slow (but the stakes are somewhat higher - I may end up with chronic problems. But I am overly optimistic I guess).
I'm not sure if this helps you - I'd never take a shortcut where an animal life is at risk. (I'd never be the customer Vodka Martini describes. I fret immensely about my cat having suboptimal living conditions and am actually looking to move so he can have more space to run around in.) So I guess if there are fish owners who think "fish dying = low stakes", there is little you can do?
posted by ClarissaWAM at 1:15 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
As an aquarium owner/keeper, general thoughts:
1 Fish are Cheap.
2 People don't think of them in the same way as other pets.
3 Following the proper advice can be not fun. IE "I want SO MANY FISH!"
4 Following the proper advice can be expensive. IE "But I've got this cool jug-thing I'm not buying an aquarium!"
5 The penalty for being a big fuck up is buying more fish (see point #1)
posted by French Fry at 1:28 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
1 Fish are Cheap.
2 People don't think of them in the same way as other pets.
3 Following the proper advice can be not fun. IE "I want SO MANY FISH!"
4 Following the proper advice can be expensive. IE "But I've got this cool jug-thing I'm not buying an aquarium!"
5 The penalty for being a big fuck up is buying more fish (see point #1)
posted by French Fry at 1:28 PM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
In the interests of making the world a better place, I'm going to embarrassingly reveal something that may be along the lines of what you're talking about and try to walk you through my thought processes.
A long time ago, when I was young and foolish, I decided I wanted a goldfish, and a goldfish bowl to put it in. So, I went to the pet store and told the man working there that I wanted to buy a goldfish and a goldfish bowl.
"You can't put a goldfish in a bowl," he said. "Goldfish need a lot of space. You need one of these big rectangular tanks, and -"
"I'm sorry, what?" I said. "I can't put a goldfish in a goldfish bowl?"
"Nope. It's too small. You need a tank and a filter and..."
My college roommate had a goldfish that had lived for about a million years that lived in a bowl in our kitchen, and I had a very clear image in my head about how the goldfish bowl would look on my desk. I had seen goldfish bowls in picture books and on television and in real life ever since I could remember; I didn't want to become, like, some EXPERT FISH COLLECTOR or grow some giant fancy goldfish; I just wanted to put a goldfish in a goddamned bowl the way that every seven year old on the planet had done at some point, and now this condescending dude was telling me I had to spend a ton of cash on a bunch of fancy equipment if I wanted to buy a goldfish for a dollar? Goldfish were given out for free in plastic baggies in my elementary school! College kids swallowed them for sport! I supposed to spend a hundred dollars on a goddamn filtered tank so that one lonely goldfish could swim around in it? Ridiculous.
I listened to his spiel and nodded and smiled and I let him get me a goldfish, and then I waited until he went away and I bought the very largest bowl they had in the store, which had a picture of a goldfish on it, and I put my goldfish in it and it lived for three months and then it died.
Turns out, you're not supposed to put goldfish in bowls. Who knew? That guy, obviously. But here's my best guess as to why I didn't listen to him.
1. Common sense and received wisdom are powerful things. They're called goldfish bowls. I mean, c'mon! Obviously if I'd been trying to buy, like, some exotic spider I would have trusted the advice of a Spider Expert, but the care of just a regular goldfish didn't seem like something that required an expert opinion.
2. It was cheaper to assume I was right. This makes me seem like a jerk, but it's the truth: my goldfish cost a dollar, and conventional wisdom is that goldfish die if you breathe on them wrong. (Of course, that's probably because convention wisdom tells us they can live in bowls.) Besides, realistically I couldn't have afforded to buy that tank he wanted, so if I listened to him, I would have NO goldfish, whereas if I listened to myself, I would have a bright shiny goldfish that might very well live a long time (my roommate's did!). Even if it died, I'd only be out a couple of dollars (and of course the precious, priceless life of my poor goldfish. RIP Benjamin Stanley.) If the goldfish had cost $100, you bet I would have listened to him.
3. He had an agenda. He worked at the pet store! Of course he was going to tell me I had to buy a bajillion dollars worth of equipment. And honestly, even if he'd been just a friendly volunteer, I would have been skeptical, because serious hobbyists are always telling you about how you need a ton of expensive and complicated equipment in order to correctly pursue their hobby, and often it's not true. I didn't want to kill my fish, but I didn't mind being a mediocre amateur fish owner. I didn't divide it into two categories (Goldfish suffers/dies vs. Goldfish lives & thrives), I figured the result of not following his advice was having a goldfish that didn't live quite as long, or seem quite as healthy, as this guy's platonic ideal of a goldfish.
So how could he have gotten me to listen to him?
Start by making a connection."Oh, you want a goldfish! That's so exciting - I love goldfish. I have three at home..."
Acknowledge that what he was saying was counterintuitive "Listen, I know this is crazy, and we always have a tough time convincing people of this, but it's actually really bad to put goldfish in a goldfish bowl. People used to do it all the time, but it's really not good for them - it's like clipping a bird's wings and keeping them in those tiny cages..."
Set the stakes: "I'm not saying that if you put a goldfish in a bowl, it will, like, die immediately, but even if you change the water every other day, it will still be slowly suffocating, and the odds are it won't live longer than a year..."
Make a personal appeal: "It bothers me a lot to see fish suffering like that, and people treating them like they're disposable and coming in for a new one every month, you know?"
Offer options "So on the one hand, you could buy this tank, and you could keep a couple of fish in it really happily, or you could buy a betta fish, like this guy over here, who would be totally happy in a bowl like the one you're looking for..."
Acknowledge that ultimately it's the other person's choice to make "So! Sorry for talking your ear off. I really appreciate you listening to that whole spiel. Now what would you like me to do?"
posted by pretentious illiterate at 1:30 PM on July 9, 2015 [45 favorites]
A long time ago, when I was young and foolish, I decided I wanted a goldfish, and a goldfish bowl to put it in. So, I went to the pet store and told the man working there that I wanted to buy a goldfish and a goldfish bowl.
"You can't put a goldfish in a bowl," he said. "Goldfish need a lot of space. You need one of these big rectangular tanks, and -"
"I'm sorry, what?" I said. "I can't put a goldfish in a goldfish bowl?"
"Nope. It's too small. You need a tank and a filter and..."
My college roommate had a goldfish that had lived for about a million years that lived in a bowl in our kitchen, and I had a very clear image in my head about how the goldfish bowl would look on my desk. I had seen goldfish bowls in picture books and on television and in real life ever since I could remember; I didn't want to become, like, some EXPERT FISH COLLECTOR or grow some giant fancy goldfish; I just wanted to put a goldfish in a goddamned bowl the way that every seven year old on the planet had done at some point, and now this condescending dude was telling me I had to spend a ton of cash on a bunch of fancy equipment if I wanted to buy a goldfish for a dollar? Goldfish were given out for free in plastic baggies in my elementary school! College kids swallowed them for sport! I supposed to spend a hundred dollars on a goddamn filtered tank so that one lonely goldfish could swim around in it? Ridiculous.
I listened to his spiel and nodded and smiled and I let him get me a goldfish, and then I waited until he went away and I bought the very largest bowl they had in the store, which had a picture of a goldfish on it, and I put my goldfish in it and it lived for three months and then it died.
Turns out, you're not supposed to put goldfish in bowls. Who knew? That guy, obviously. But here's my best guess as to why I didn't listen to him.
1. Common sense and received wisdom are powerful things. They're called goldfish bowls. I mean, c'mon! Obviously if I'd been trying to buy, like, some exotic spider I would have trusted the advice of a Spider Expert, but the care of just a regular goldfish didn't seem like something that required an expert opinion.
2. It was cheaper to assume I was right. This makes me seem like a jerk, but it's the truth: my goldfish cost a dollar, and conventional wisdom is that goldfish die if you breathe on them wrong. (Of course, that's probably because convention wisdom tells us they can live in bowls.) Besides, realistically I couldn't have afforded to buy that tank he wanted, so if I listened to him, I would have NO goldfish, whereas if I listened to myself, I would have a bright shiny goldfish that might very well live a long time (my roommate's did!). Even if it died, I'd only be out a couple of dollars (and of course the precious, priceless life of my poor goldfish. RIP Benjamin Stanley.) If the goldfish had cost $100, you bet I would have listened to him.
3. He had an agenda. He worked at the pet store! Of course he was going to tell me I had to buy a bajillion dollars worth of equipment. And honestly, even if he'd been just a friendly volunteer, I would have been skeptical, because serious hobbyists are always telling you about how you need a ton of expensive and complicated equipment in order to correctly pursue their hobby, and often it's not true. I didn't want to kill my fish, but I didn't mind being a mediocre amateur fish owner. I didn't divide it into two categories (Goldfish suffers/dies vs. Goldfish lives & thrives), I figured the result of not following his advice was having a goldfish that didn't live quite as long, or seem quite as healthy, as this guy's platonic ideal of a goldfish.
So how could he have gotten me to listen to him?
Start by making a connection."Oh, you want a goldfish! That's so exciting - I love goldfish. I have three at home..."
Acknowledge that what he was saying was counterintuitive "Listen, I know this is crazy, and we always have a tough time convincing people of this, but it's actually really bad to put goldfish in a goldfish bowl. People used to do it all the time, but it's really not good for them - it's like clipping a bird's wings and keeping them in those tiny cages..."
Set the stakes: "I'm not saying that if you put a goldfish in a bowl, it will, like, die immediately, but even if you change the water every other day, it will still be slowly suffocating, and the odds are it won't live longer than a year..."
Make a personal appeal: "It bothers me a lot to see fish suffering like that, and people treating them like they're disposable and coming in for a new one every month, you know?"
Offer options "So on the one hand, you could buy this tank, and you could keep a couple of fish in it really happily, or you could buy a betta fish, like this guy over here, who would be totally happy in a bowl like the one you're looking for..."
Acknowledge that ultimately it's the other person's choice to make "So! Sorry for talking your ear off. I really appreciate you listening to that whole spiel. Now what would you like me to do?"
posted by pretentious illiterate at 1:30 PM on July 9, 2015 [45 favorites]
I am reminded of the Jared Spool talk/article on the stages of competence. There are four stages of knowing something:
Unconscious incompetence - you don't know what you're doing or how bad you are at it
Conscious incompetence - you start to grasp all of the things you don't know
Conscious competence - starting to learn things but you have to think about it
Unconscious incompetence - you've internalized the knowledge and don't have to think about it.
You're in stage 3 or 4. The person who is unconsciously incompetent has no idea what they know or don't know, so they make decisions in the dark. Though it's hard to shed light for people if they are convinced they can see in the gloom...
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:02 PM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Unconscious incompetence - you don't know what you're doing or how bad you are at it
Conscious incompetence - you start to grasp all of the things you don't know
Conscious competence - starting to learn things but you have to think about it
Unconscious incompetence - you've internalized the knowledge and don't have to think about it.
You're in stage 3 or 4. The person who is unconsciously incompetent has no idea what they know or don't know, so they make decisions in the dark. Though it's hard to shed light for people if they are convinced they can see in the gloom...
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:02 PM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Hi. I'm one of your customers.
I should clarify, I no longer work in a fish store. I made the mistake of not explaining that most of these interactions are via online forums, social media and email, and the fish store anecdote was to support the notion that this doesn't happen in just online communication. Which I realize now I failed to clarify.
I write a lot about my part of the hobby (seahorses) and that is where much of the interaction comes from and why I see so much. Seahorses are also the special snowflake of fish, which makes many experienced keepers frustrated when advice is not followed and it was a round of kvetching over the aquarium equivalent "kids these days" that I started to wonder what the cause was and what could be done to fix it.
Yes, I am aware that goldfish require much more space to thrive. I am also aware that they can survive and not get sick in a space this size with regular water changing.
This, on the other hand, is an interesting point that I wasn't considering. Specifically that frequently best practices and necessary practices are frequently conflated (thanks alms for the idea). This happens a lot in aquatics. You'll have people swear nine ways to Sunday that bettas need a minimum of a 3 gallon filtered aquarium, and having raised them as a child, I simply know that isn't true. If you're diligent with water changes and don't overfeed, they can live happily in a cup of water. There are more chances for things to go sideways. The same holds true for goldfish and goldfish bowls.
These are really great thoughts so far and have done wonders for broadening my perspective.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 2:03 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I should clarify, I no longer work in a fish store. I made the mistake of not explaining that most of these interactions are via online forums, social media and email, and the fish store anecdote was to support the notion that this doesn't happen in just online communication. Which I realize now I failed to clarify.
I write a lot about my part of the hobby (seahorses) and that is where much of the interaction comes from and why I see so much. Seahorses are also the special snowflake of fish, which makes many experienced keepers frustrated when advice is not followed and it was a round of kvetching over the aquarium equivalent "kids these days" that I started to wonder what the cause was and what could be done to fix it.
Yes, I am aware that goldfish require much more space to thrive. I am also aware that they can survive and not get sick in a space this size with regular water changing.
This, on the other hand, is an interesting point that I wasn't considering. Specifically that frequently best practices and necessary practices are frequently conflated (thanks alms for the idea). This happens a lot in aquatics. You'll have people swear nine ways to Sunday that bettas need a minimum of a 3 gallon filtered aquarium, and having raised them as a child, I simply know that isn't true. If you're diligent with water changes and don't overfeed, they can live happily in a cup of water. There are more chances for things to go sideways. The same holds true for goldfish and goldfish bowls.
These are really great thoughts so far and have done wonders for broadening my perspective.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 2:03 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
i'll assert, more primly now, that if this phenomena has a 'word', i'd like to know it. is *educational resistance* a thing? *training opposition*? i know *selctive listening* is a term used in relationship-speak. it would be useful to have a concept at hand across disciplines and media-types: communications is hard, teaching is hard, proper guidance takes experience. i think this seems useful. even useful for talking with my junior devs.
posted by j_curiouser at 3:59 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by j_curiouser at 3:59 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Another reason people ignore best practices is that sometimes there are too many of them, and it feels overwhelmingly complicated to try to follow them all. People learn incrementally. Sometimes that means taking shortcuts and making mistakes. Beginners make their best guesses as to which steps they can skip while they are learning. As a teacher, you can minimize the damage from beginner's mistakes by separating the necessary from the ideal, and letting beginners know where it's all right to take a shortcut and where it isn't.
This partly explains why being an expert is distinct from being a good teacher. Experts have integrated all of the complex details into a single pattern that feels natural to them. An expert who is not a good teacher forgets that beginners have to track and coordinate all of these details individually. That's too much to fit into working memory. A good teacher gives beginners a set of essential practices that is narrow enough to fit into their working memory, and then shows people what to add to those practices over time as they become familiar with the domain.
posted by alms at 6:49 AM on July 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
This partly explains why being an expert is distinct from being a good teacher. Experts have integrated all of the complex details into a single pattern that feels natural to them. An expert who is not a good teacher forgets that beginners have to track and coordinate all of these details individually. That's too much to fit into working memory. A good teacher gives beginners a set of essential practices that is narrow enough to fit into their working memory, and then shows people what to add to those practices over time as they become familiar with the domain.
posted by alms at 6:49 AM on July 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
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People don't like to be told they're wrong, and a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, as they say.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:15 AM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]