Hot Wife Not Wanting to be a "Hot Wife"
July 9, 2015 8:37 AM   Subscribe

Two years in to our marriage, my husband told me that he had developed a “hot wife” fetish. He was having sex dreams about me having sex with a stranger in front of him. I told him that if he had wanted that sort of thing that he had married the wrong kind of woman. He let it drop, but then began talking about it again after a couple of months. This started a cycle of interactions that has been going on for about five years now, and it is causing enormous strain on the marriage.

Back when I was dating my soon-to-be-husband, he told me that he had endured a lot of cheating in his past relationships, and because of that, would be completely unforgiving if I were to cheat on him. Right before we married he told me that cheating would be an automatic divorce. Since I have always been a very loyal, monogamous person, I told him that it would never be a problem.

I have kept saying “no” to his requests to try the "hot wife" lifestyle, and I tried my best to explain why I just couldn’t agree to having sexual relations with a stranger: I had never had a one-night-stand in my life, and had never been sexual with someone I didn’t know very well. After several rounds of that I added that his asking was making me feel disrespected, inadequate in the bedroom, and was damaging our marriage.

In-between each time I simply let it go, thought the matter was resolved, and and kept going. The last time he brought it up though, something happened with me. Since then I have been alternating between crying, and being really angry, and can't seem to just shake it off this time. I asked my husband to go to counseling with me, but he refuses. I don’t know why this time was so much different than all the other times he brought it up, but I just feel depressed and broken. I just can't seem to get him to understand that from my perspective he is asking me to commit adultery and compromise the very foundation of my self respect.

Anyone else have some similar experiences? Am I overreacting to the whole thing? I need some advice about what to do next.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (58 answers total) 8 users marked this as a favorite
 
from my perspective he is asking me to commit adultery and compromise the very foundation of my self respect.

Have you said exactly this to him? I would definitely lay it on thick and bluntly tell him that he is asking you to be someone you can't be, that it's disrespectful, and that it's damaging the marriage. If he gets defensive or continues to pressure I would just keep saying this over and over.

I wouldn't necessarily bring up the fact that he once told you that cheating was immediate grounds for divorce, because he's now going to argue that this isn't cheating, or that he's changed his mind, or that you should know him better. It's just a no-win argument. You need to stick with how this makes you feel and how this damages the marriage.

I'm sorry.
posted by joan_holloway at 8:44 AM on July 9, 2015 [17 favorites]


Sounds like the reason that this time you can't just let it drop is because the jerk HASN'T been letting it drop:

"Will you do this?"
"No."
"Okay. ....How about now?"
"No."
"Okay. ...How about now?"
"No."
"Okay. ....How about now?"
"OH MY GOD I HAVE SAID I WILL NOT DO THAT WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU???"

Jeez, the guy is acting like a five year old about this.

I would have one more come-to-Jesus with him about this, where you tell him that not only is this totally something you will not do, but that you also add that his continuing to NOT SHUT UP AND DROP IT is also becoming its own problem, and that he needs to get it through his head that THIS IS NOT HAPPENING - and that this is his final warning, and if he asks you ONE more time about this AFTER this, that you're going to move out. Period.

I mean, he told you that you cheating would be an automatic divorce, right? Maybe you need to make the same threat - not of divorce, but of a separation while he gets his shit together, maybe.

You are not broken, he's just being a total spoiled brat about this. Good luck.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:45 AM on July 9, 2015 [100 favorites]


This is abuse that is causing you immense psychological upset. If he's not willing to drop it, and also not willing to go to counseling, how can you do anything but DTMFA?
posted by jayder at 8:45 AM on July 9, 2015 [19 favorites]


No, you're not over-reacting in the least! You've told him very clearly from the get-go that this isn't for you and never will be, and he is ignoring who YOU ARE and badgering you repeatedly. That is disrespectful of him, no matter what the topic is. And I suspect that this last incident was the proverbial straw: please don't even think about blaming yourself for having the reaction you did. Your feelings are your feelings...and maybe it just took some time for them to percolate and for you to put words to why this upsets you so much.

If he won't go to counselling, I hope you are going (or will go) by yourself. There you should find some tools for improving your communication with him (not that you haven't been clear enough as it is, but he seems hard-headed and determined despite this).

And just a thought: what about role-playing the scenario somehow? And/or talking dirty stories along the lines of what seems to be his kink? I don't know if you can or want to do this (after all, his attitude toward you w/re this issue has tainted the topic), but maybe there is some means by which to find a way for him to get a little of what he is after without you having to compromise yourself.

Please take care of yourself. Your needs and sense of self matter!
posted by Halo in reverse at 8:48 AM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


You told your husband you're not interested in the whole cuckolding idea. You told and showed him how much you don't like, how just the mention of it irritates you and goes beyond into being being deliberately hurtful.

You reached your breaking point this last time because he's trying to break you. He probably thinks then you'll see his point of view.

You're not overreacting. Go to counseling without him.
posted by RainyJay at 8:49 AM on July 9, 2015 [26 favorites]


It sounds like, from the very beginning, he's related to you more as an object (and a fetish object) than a person. Telling you that cheating will automatically end in divorce was messed up, because most people go into marriage with that assumption anyway, and making such a big deal about it at that stage showed that he cared more about trying to control and punish the potential future behavior of his "wife object" than actually figuring out if you were a person who was likely to cheat on him, or why he'd been cheated on in the past, or establish a solid relationship so you wouldn't want to cheat. He was pre-emptively drawing a line that would make it all. your. fault. and probably also serve to disclaim him from any responsibility of the relationship having broken down to that point anyway.

He's been going on about his fetish, which is a particularly creepy, objectifying, and dehumanizing one that he's handling in a particularly creepy, objectifying, and dehumanizing way, for five years out of a seven year marriage, with no empathy for you and no regard for your stated preferences. All he cares about your sexuality is how it reflects on him and how it makes him, that's pretty much the core of this particular fetish. Normally I don't think what people are into the bedroom has any particular reflection on who they are as people or how they are outside of it, but his contempt and disregard for you as a unique person with feelings pervades every single behavior of his you've described. The writing is on the wall.

Dump this asshole. You can do better.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 8:54 AM on July 9, 2015 [59 favorites]


Your reaction is understandable: You've told your husband multiple times you do not want to sleep with strangers, and he's not letting it drop. Or, he let's it drop long enough for you to feel its behind you, and then brings it up again. So at this point you're probably feeling like you're staring at a lifetime of constantly being put in the position of explaining yourself, and that's stressful. You're never not being pestered about it, you'll always be waiting for it to start up again.

Even if in his mind he's just asking for something kinky, so its not cheating, he's ignoring your boundaries... keeps pushing even though it makes you upset. So he's an idiot: even if you were someone who might be into that sort of thing, how on earth could you think of trying something this potentially emotionally risky when he won't listen to you?

I guess you could try one last come to jesus talk about how you really can't trust him to look out for you emotionally, and to move forward counseling is required. And emphasise moving forward isn't addressing his kink (which maybe there are ways to do so that are acceptable to you, but at the moment that is irrelevant) but rather your relationship.
posted by ghost phoneme at 9:00 AM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


Basically it was something like this that ended my 2nd marriage, except he wanted me to do it with another woman. Not my thing, which I made it very clear.

Unbeknownst to me, he was out grooming other women to make this actually happen, and invited one over to my open house Christmas party, where our neighbors and the local alderman and his wife had stopped by. I was showing his "friend" around the house, and she got really close to me, and grinning like a fiend. Then she said, "so! Your husband said you wanted a threesome!"

Then he popped his head in the door and said, "so! How are you two getting along?" SURPRISE! Boy was I ever. But they didn't quite get the reaction they were hoping for...

I threw her out of the house and the marriage ended very quickly after that. That's about as close as I ever want to be involved with someone forcing sex on me. It was definitely very creepy, given that I had also volunteered with this woman and we had all met through volunteering and it suddenly dawned on me afterward that this was the reason she was always so friendly toward me and standing just a leetle bit too close inside of my personal space at the volunteer place. Ugh.

It's not about sex, it's about power. I'm guessing that perhaps your husband might have other issues, because most guys would be able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality when their wife says "no."

Your body might be telling you something: it doesn't like constant coercion. Listen to your instincts. I would personally take this as a sign that things cannot be brought back to a level of closeness and trust. Totally agree with the objectification comment above. If it wasn't you, it would be another woman being treated the same way.

posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 9:07 AM on July 9, 2015 [52 favorites]


Kick him to the curb and be thankful you only have 2 years invested.
posted by JohnE at 9:13 AM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]


It's a bit rich that he's not willing to try counseling to work through this, but is insisting that you try sex with a stranger. I suggest you find your own therapist and try to figure out what's best and healthiest for you in this situation. You're not overreacting, and you deserve respect.
posted by Meg_Murry at 9:15 AM on July 9, 2015 [33 favorites]


If you want to feel as if you've done due diligence, you can give him one opportunity to seek treatment for his obsessive behavior before you divorce him.

The reason you are hurt is because the absolute zero amount of respect he is showing for you. He's trying to make you have sex with someone, and you are not required to be okay with that.

I would take the one shot at this being a bigger issue because it does seem to be the kind of "dramatic change in behavior"* that is a red flag for medical issues - endocrinological problem, post-concussion syndrome, brain (or other) tumor, serious untreated infection. Or mental illness affecting impulse control. Did anything else change around the time this started? Other obsessions, or sudden loss of interest in things he'd previously been enthusiastic about? Did anything happen - car accident, fall, serious illness?

You don't have to stay no matter what, and he's an adult who appears to be functioning so you can't make him go to the doctor, but this is really the only situation where this might be fixable and not actually about what he thinks you're for.

Get your own therapist so you have support, see if you can get him to go to a GP if not a neurologist, start looking for a lawyer. This sucks and I'm so sorry.

*Unless, of course, all his original "I sure do hate cheating" shtick was part of the game.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:24 AM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


JohnE, it's seven years.

Anonymous, I'm here to join the choir of those who are telling you that you are not overreacting, and that he's being a coersive asshole and showing no signs of respect or love for you.
I'm very sorry, but it sounds like me like this marriage is over.
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:25 AM on July 9, 2015 [5 favorites]


I would at this point plaster the house with post-it notes that say NO. On the bathroom mirror. On the toilet paper. In the coffee mugs. On every bottle in the fridge. On every pillow on the couch. On every place setting on the dining table. In every magazine. Etc.

Then I would tack a note to the front door with a note that says "NO. And if you ask me again, it will end our marriage." I'd walk out the door, turn off my cell phone, and treat myself to a swank hotel for 24 hours.

Then I'd come home, kind of curious to see if he was still there.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:27 AM on July 9, 2015 [54 favorites]


I asked my husband to go to counseling with me, but he refuses.

It literally would not matter what the issue is -- sex, money, religion -- and this refusal would be the key signal to look for the exit. Substitute any issue for this one, and the outright refusal to even assist in seeking counseling should be the trigger.

Set the hot wife thing aside for a moment and recognize that this is just a bad person.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:32 AM on July 9, 2015 [52 favorites]


This is megadouche behavior. It's no different than a frat guy at a party trying over and over to get a woman to go upstairs with him. Tell him counseling or fuck off.
posted by easter queen at 9:36 AM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


Adding to the chorus: you are not overreacting.

It is totally and perfectly reasonable to ask one's partner to engage in a kink. And it's totally and perfectly reasonable to expect that one's partner will at least give it a go, think it over, negotiate a lesser version of.

In most cases, that is. Some kinks are what Dan Savage calls "a kink too far," and I would absolutely put "getting fucked by a stranger" on that list in big letters. With AKTF, you get precisely one chance to ask. If the answer is no, that's it, end of discussion forever unless your partner brings it up and says "so I was thinking about that thing you asked me to do last year."

He's being an entitled baby who's ruled by his dick. I suggest:

"You have asked me this before. I said no. You asked me again. I said no. My answer is not going to change because I have no interest in sex with another person, period. If you ask me again you will be receiving divorce papers within 24 hours. Are we crystal clear on this?"

That is, if you want to continue in the marriage. Refusing to attend counseling for a problem he is causing sends up a HUGE red flag for me, a flag labeled "I refuse to take responsibility for the pain I am causing you, and I refuse to be part of the team that makes this marriage succeed."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:37 AM on July 9, 2015 [26 favorites]


I agree with everyone else that this guy is being really disrespectful, and that this behavior is potentially grounds for a divorce.

I also think that the way you're dealing with the situation is working against you.

and I tried my best to explain why I just couldn’t agree to having sexual relations with a stranger: I had never had a one-night-stand in my life, and had never been sexual with someone I didn’t know very well.

When you explain it this way, it makes it sound like you're just nervous about it, or not quite ready yet or something. It makes it sound like you'd consider it if you knew the other guy well enough, or if you were more confident. It's giving him hope that you'll come around one day. That's not the truth though. The truth is that you just hate the idea and don't want to do it.

After several rounds of that I added that his asking was making me feel disrespected, inadequate in the bedroom, and was damaging our marriage.

That still gives him an opening to try to convince you that it's not disrespectful because it's empowering to you, and that in fact he thinks you're more than adequate, which is why he wants to see you do sexy things, and it would strengthen your marriage because blah blah blah.

It's good of you to try to explain things to him, and help him see where you're coming from, but in the end this topic is not up for debate. You are not going to do it. It's 100% non-negotiable. The time for explanations and debate is over. Now is the time for a clear, resounding, unambiguous "NO!" "NO. I hate that. NO. I'm never going to want to do that. NO. If you keep asking me I'll leave you. NO."

How he reacts to such a strong, unambiguous message will tell you a lot about whether this marriage is salvageable. If you suspect that saying that to him will put you in danger of being attacked by him, then get yourself to a safe place first, and then tell him.

On the other hand, if you don't care about this marriage at all anymore, then all he needs to know is that you're leaving. I know you want to explain things and have closure and understanding, but you've tried that a lot with this guy, and he's proven to be incapable of that.
posted by sam_harms at 9:44 AM on July 9, 2015 [15 favorites]


This is surely "no means no" territory. I'm so sorry he's being a coercive jerk.
posted by Omnomnom at 9:44 AM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]


It seems your husband has eroticized the past cheating in his life into this hotwife fetish. Whatever the origin, I agree that he's being obnoxious about it. There are certainly women in the world who engage in this lifestyle and enjoy it, but you're not one of them. You're not being unreasonable to refuse. He rolled out this obsession after you both made a firm monogamous commitment

At the same time, you do realize that your strategy of "letting it drop" hasn't worked over the last five years and is never going to work. This fetish is embedded deep in your husband's brain, and he obviously cannot let it go even if he wanted to. I see three options:

1) Continuing the status quo until you get so angry and he gets so dissatisfied, you two divorce
2) Divorce sooner rather than later
3) Find a way to incorporate his fetish into your sex life (fantasy, role play, etc.) in a way you both enjoy
posted by Leontine at 9:44 AM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]


N'thing "You are not overreacting". You deserve more respect than this.

I would lawyer up, immediately, if I were you.

Good luck and I'm sorry you are going through this.
posted by PsuDab93 at 9:45 AM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think it's pretty clear something unpleasant is going on in his head -- arising from past emotional trauma from betrayal, and possibly connected to other longer-term issues related to sex -- that a serious threat to your marriage. He needs to start working with a counselor, to address the issues that have fostered a compulsion clearly incompatible with your life together. I don't think it's too dramatic to say to him that the future of your relationship depends on him finding help and figuring out why he needs something that is so unacceptable for you.
posted by aught at 9:48 AM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]


Yeah, adding to the chorus that this is absolutely, positively unacceptable behavior. I'm sorry, but this man is not being a good person.

I encourage you to attend counseling on your own, whether or not you are entertaining thoughts of divorce.
posted by Specklet at 9:48 AM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]


As Specklet says, start the counseling ball rolling. Find a couples counsellor, make an appointment that he should be able to make it to (not in the middle of his work day or a known funeral/wedding, whatever) and inform him you're going and if he's serious about staying married he needs to show up too. Then go, regardless of whether he goes or not.

Or don't, if you think this is a nag-harassment too far. Only you know how you would like this to roll out. He's demonstrated that he's unable/unwilling to accept the no. You need to decide, within that structure, what you'd like to happen. Maybe you want to just start thinking about an exit strategy and contact a lawyer.
posted by phearlez at 10:08 AM on July 9, 2015


I wouldn't be surprised if his talk of "past cheating" was something more along the lines of "I got former gf to say yes to this thing but then she wasn't down with it more than once, so I re-wrote the script from her dumping me for being an asshole to me dumping her for being a cheating bitch".

I also wonder, if he's trying to groom you or break you as someone mentioned above - what else has he already broken your resolve on? Really think about this, because I can't believe that's he's respected your wishes on everything else besides this issue. And when you think about it, if you begin to realize that this is a pattern of behavior on his part, you might start to find that this is not a relationship you want to be in.

If it's truly a one-off, well, maybe counseling could help you two work through it.
posted by vignettist at 10:08 AM on July 9, 2015 [18 favorites]


To me, the really "scary" part of this isn't the "hot wife" thing - some people are fine with the polyamory thing. What raises a red flag with me is how this guy went from "no cheating!" to "I wanna see you do this". Because - there was this guy I used to work with, years back, and to make a long story short, he and his wife had a foursome with another couple and he simply could not handle it. He was sure he'd be able to deal, it had been a long-time fantasy. But when it happened for real, he could not deal with watching his wife enjoying herself with another man. One thing led to another and it ended in a messy divorce.

I don't have any advice for you, I'm sorry. But you asked for similar experiences. I guess my gut feeling is that you a) should not indulge your husband and b) if he doesn't let up, you should probably consider divorce.
posted by doctor tough love at 10:08 AM on July 9, 2015 [4 favorites]


He's demanded two entirely opposing behaviors of you: complete monogamy (penalty: automatic divorce) and supervised adultery.

You as a human are compatible with one of those extremes, but not the other. This makes utter sense. Your distress right now is due to the 180-degree dissonance of his demands. There's no way any human would be compatible with them both! You shouldn't feel bad for knowing who you are, and sticking to your truths.

The thing that strikes me here is that you probably never would have married him if this was honest and on the table before marriage. This is an incompatibility as big as "don't want kids" turning into "must have baby NOW".

So by all means, you should start at ground zero and consider whether you want to marry this guy, as he is now.

So sorry. This sounds awful.
posted by Dashy at 10:24 AM on July 9, 2015 [15 favorites]


Find a couples counsellor, make an appointment that he should be able to make it to

Don't do this. Put on your own oxygen mask, get your own counselor for you (you should not privately see the same counselor you are using as a couple, should that situation become feasible), take care of your own mental health first.

It's not a counselor's job to make someone participate in counseling. Either both parties show up by agreement with a good-faith intention to participate, or nothing can be done. You can't effectively participate in counseling on an ultimatum any more than you can effectively participate when one party says they're willing but it's really just to buy shut-up time from the other party so they can get a lawyer and a lease. It won't fix anything.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:30 AM on July 9, 2015 [8 favorites]


He's pulled a terrible bait-and-switch on you. When you were preparing to marry, he made his strong feelings about monogamy very known to you. I'm assuming that you have a similar orientation toward strict monogamy and so this was agreeable to you. So you married with this agreement being foundational. Now he's developed this cuckolding interest and is trying to pressure you to do something sexually for his sole enjoyment and at great personal expense to you since you're super not into it. The fact that he continues to badger you is really very troubling and you're not overreacting.

However, like some other MeFites have pointed out, one of the biggest problems is that he refuses to go seek counseling with you. Having a partner request joint counseling means things are very serious and there are issues critical to the partnership that must be addressed in a major way. For him to say no is him saying that he doesn't care that you see a marriage crisis looming. This is a terrible indicator of where he is. I'd ask him one more time and convey that it's very serious and see what happens. I'd also get my own counselor to weather the coming storm. If he's not willing to fix what's happening and isn't willing to show you even minimal respect when it comes to your marriage, I think you know what's coming. I'm very sorry. This sounds horrible and you're right to be so angry and hurt by it.
posted by quince at 10:32 AM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]


I'd be more upset than you seem here; I don't think you're overreacting at all. Not only is he harassing you for a sex act after you've told him no a hundred times, he's totally changed the terms of your marriage and he's refusing to give you anything you've asked for.

Sure, I suppose you could tell him no one more time and see if it helps, but do you really want to be with the guy who needed to be told no one hundred and one times?

You know it will still be on his mind even if he can train himself to stop haranguing you. It's probably been on his mind from the start, what with his focus on cheating.

His is an unusual request--a seriously HUGE ask--and your reasons for refusing it are sound. But even if he were asking for something minor, and your reasons for refusing were sort of silly (say, he wanted you to wear a red negligee but you hate red because you think it's wrong for your skintone), a respectful husband would know when to drop it.

His behavior indicates he does not respect you at all.
posted by kapers at 10:38 AM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


Hey, I'm a married guy and have been thinking about this post for the past hour or so. It's so odd and bizarre, you've said no in pretty clear terms and he's not taking no for answer. Even worse, you sound really worn down about this, which I'm betting he thinks is a sign that eventually you'll give in (which is obviously completely fucked up for him to do).

While I don't have similar experience, I have certainly asked my wife or previous girlfriends to try things in the bedroom and if they said no, I'd be ok with that and ask them why out of curiosity and a desire to understand their point of view.

So the idea that this guy, your spouse, who's supposed to always have you back and support you, keeps badgering you for this thing you've made clear is belittling and damaging to your marriage is appalling. No spouse should ever pull this crap, for any reason. No means no. No means no.

You're definitely not overreacting at all. I hate to sound dramatic and rash, but he's being pulling this shit for 5 years with no sign of stopping, so perhaps rashness on your part is in order. Find someplace else to stay and start divorce proceeding. Because if he isn't respecting your wishes in such an intimate matter, he's a potential danger to you and you're better off not being around him at all.

Best of luck to you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:04 AM on July 9, 2015 [16 favorites]


He's being unreasonable and you are not overreacting. But I've read a lot of Dan Savage and I also believe that it's your responsibility as his partner to try to engage with his sexual fantasies, not just shut him down! (That doesn't mean actually acting them out. More below.)

1. Couples therapy with a sex-positive therapist.

2. Can you try to indulge this fantasy as a fantasy, rather than in real life?
Here's some Dan Savage on the topic. At first he agreed with you - the husband should drop it - then his readers shared stories about how "hot wife" fantasies can be indulged without actual adultery. Original advice column, follow up 1, follow up 2.

i.e.:
- You get yourself off in front of him while narrating how you are fantasizing about another man.
- You have sex with him while you do some (fake) dirty talk about the other guy you fucked earlier that day.
- You go to a bar and flirt with the male bartender while he watches from across the room, and then you guys get it on in the alleyway outside (or once you get back home) while he silently gets to fantasize about you sleeping with said bartender.

etc. etc.
posted by amaire at 11:07 AM on July 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


I feel like I know what he meant when he told you that he had "endured a lot of cheating in his past relationships". I think he's hit his itch cycle and wants you to be the bad guy.

Ask him if he's consciously trying to make you resent him or if he is just doing it naturally.
posted by janey47 at 11:26 AM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]


To me, the issue of respect issue is far more pressing than the fulfillment of his sexual fantasies. When and if the larger marital issues have been resolved - then two people can sit down and have a mutually engrossing time exploring the fantasies of the person who is right now busy stomping all over the agency, confidence and personal boundaries (to use way to much therapy speak) of the OP.
Shared pleasure requires trust, and a full understanding of the term shared pleasure. Until both partners (and I'm looking at the OP's husband here) are acting in good faith, attempting to reshape his fetish is, I suspect, rather dangerous, as it brings things back around to him and his fantasies, instead of the state of his marriage.
(And personally, I can't think of a greater turn off than spending my emotional energy figuring out how to turn a partner on as a distraction from him making me cry.)
posted by tabubilgirl at 11:26 AM on July 9, 2015 [24 favorites]


I don't see why you should offer to "compromise" by indulging in fantasy play here since he has not offered to accommodate you, modify his request, or compromise by going to counseling; I think he lost his right for you to be game for him when he engaged in a pattern of behavior that has been completely disrespectful to you.

Unless you really want to indulge him in some other way, of course.
posted by kapers at 11:33 AM on July 9, 2015 [18 favorites]


Men are strange and have strange fantasies. I am sorry you have to go through this. Can you ask him: "Will you still love me and grow old with me knowing this will never happen?" and maybe as a follow up question: "Do you think our marriage is important enough to go to counseling together? I can't fix this on my own.". After all, it might be a phase. Maybe the two of you are still in love with one another, and this is just a stupid phase he's going through. For perspective: I'm 48, married, male. And we have one child. And of course I sometimes have sexual fantasies too but my family life is like the most important thing in the world that I treasure, so I can easily let fantasies stay in the land of fantasies. He might just have to learn that. Good luck!
posted by hz37 at 11:40 AM on July 9, 2015


To me, the issue of respect issue is far more pressing than the fulfillment of his sexual fantasies.

Yeah, this. Dan Savage's advice is good but not-one-size-fits-all at best, despite what he and his fan club pretend, and pretty much just straight rape culture at worst, but even at that worst, he is very clear that it's to be applied only in the context of an otherwise healthy relationship. The OP's relationship is not even remotely healthy.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 12:03 PM on July 9, 2015 [14 favorites]


Am I the only person left alive who doesn't give two fucks about anything Dan Savage has to say about what we should do in the bedroom? Seriously, do not feel badly if you do not want to indulge your husband's fantasies via any suggestions made by Dan Savage. Your husband has zero interest in stopping his relentless pursuit of what he wants here, and there is no reason at all why you should in any way reward him for the shitty insisting, badgering, and refusing to seek counseling act that he has been pulling for 5 years. Unless of course you want to role play and talk about the other guys you've fucked. Which for some reason I don't think you do.

There is not a thing wrong with your husband asking you to do this. Once. After that, all bets are off. I strongly suspect that if you go along with any sort of role-playing here, it will be the gateway that encourages him to redouble his efforts to get you to do the real thing. Counseling is 100% called for here, and if he will not go....well. You know what happens next. I'm sorry. You sound sad and at wit's end. I wish I could help.
posted by the webmistress at 12:10 PM on July 9, 2015 [34 favorites]


Yeah there was no indication this was on the menu when you got together -- quite the opposite, an extreme insistence on fidelity -- and he's being an inflexible, entitled jerk about his fantasy life. If you not wanting to do this is a dealbreaker for him, he has to own that shit and live with the consequences (separating), not pester you forever. You're not being unreasonable.
posted by ead at 12:16 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


Mod note: One comment deleted - friendly reminder folks, AskMe isn't a space for back-and-forth conversation between commenters. Responses should be answers to OP's question, rather than us getting onto a debate over Dan Savage. Thanks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:22 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


Men are strange and have strange fantasies

This is NOT about him being a man. Women have fantasies too, often really fucked up, weird ones. The difference is that men more frequently feel entitled to coerce women into participating in them. (And then women are generally more willing to try to please their partner at their own expense.)

I just wanted to add that even if you were down and comfortable with the idea psychologically, there are risks to having sex with strangers (undisclosed STDs, accidental pregnancies) that it would be perfectly reasonable not to want to deal with in real life. There are a lot of kinks that people share, but they keep it in the realm of dirty talk because doing it in real life is too risky/laborious. He is asking a LOT. Bold, italics, triple underlined.

(This is not to say that you need to indulge in a dirty talk version either, if you're not comfortable with that you have every right to stand up for your dignity and self esteem and not compromise them to his "new" kink. I'm just trying to say there is no world, short of a female-sex-slave dystopia, where you're overreacting.)
posted by easter queen at 12:23 PM on July 9, 2015 [23 favorites]


This is about fear, full stop. Everything else that's going on here is stemming from your husband's fear of being cheated on and what being cheated on symbolizes about his qualities and selfworth. You should not treat this as a simple fetish (though it certainly is that)-- this is a psychological manifestation of a serious problem that your husband has regarding trust and being valued in your relationship. That you have not expressed any familiarity or interest in other kinks (in this post, at least) but your husband still brought this up as a possibility suggests that this issue is particularly serious for him.

This isn't a bait-and-switch. This is the other side of the coin. I am very unconvinced that the previous cheating that your husband talks about could be the product of fulfilling his hotwife fantasies in the past (clearly, I think that's asserting that the cart is pulling the horse).

This is definitely therapy stuff, and I hope for both your sakes that he will come around; it doesn't sound like your husband is a creep or a jerk, just dealing with some serious stuff (and I hope that's true).

What are your husband's reasons for refusing (a huge red flag that pretty much shouts I Don't Want to Face This Super-Scary Thing No Matter What Because I Will *Die* if I Do) therapy? By which I mean, what does he say? Does refuse to talk about why he refuses?

If you want to keep your marriage, *you* should go to therapy either way.

So, advice, since you asked:
- Go to a therapist. Tell your therapist that you're there because your husband is badgering you to fulfill a serious, complicated sexual fantasy that makes you very uncomfortable. If your therapist, upon hearing what you've shared here, doesn't think that this is about your husband trying to symbolically strip the pain out of the (to his mind) inevitable act of rejection and infidelity in any relationship he is in, I'd suggest you move on.

Best case scenario, your therapist helps you get your husband into that office with you and dealing with some stuff. Worst case, you've got someone's understanding and support while you decide what to do next.

But *don't* do this without a therapist, unless you're just waiting for the right time to leave your marriage.
posted by Poppa Bear at 12:31 PM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]


Not overreacting. This shit destroyed my first marriage. I'm sorry you're going through it too.
posted by corvine at 12:34 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


You've said No, he's pushing it, and it's become coercion. Really not at all acceptable on its own. Really not acceptable in light of his discussions about adultery. Really, he's behaving very badly here.

I recommend that you start over-reacting, well, realy reacting appropriately to his appalling behavior. Love the idea of plastering the house in NO. Maybe make a big NO sign and hold it up. Most of all, tell him that he is coercing you, and you Will. Not. Tolerate. It. You sound like a reasonable person, and you are assuming that he is a reasonable person. But his behavior is completely unreasonable. Assess the rest of your marriage and see if this is a theme.

People get pretty interesting about sex. It's my belief that some sexual desires get kind of fixated, but he might be quite satisfied with other sexual excitement, like costumes, toys, you being more or less dominant than usual, different location, whatever. If you want, and only if you want, perhaps some sexual diversions would be a pleasant distraction.

Whether he chooses to accompany you or not, therapy.
posted by theora55 at 12:38 PM on July 9, 2015


Your husband is entitled to his fantasies and if getting them fulfilled is a top priority for him, that's okay too. But he has to weigh other priorities like the marriage, family, and your well-being too.

You are entitled to your boundaries and a sex life that makes you feel respected and loved. You also have to decide if there's some wiggle room on those boundaries (I can not actually be a hot wife, but could pretend to be one). It's okay if you decide there's not any wiggle room.

If getting this fantasy filled is a bigger priority for him than anything else in his life and there's no way for him to adjust expectations, then you guys are probably not compatible for the long term and should split up.

It was not okay for him to tell you one thing about his sexual make-up and then reveal something else two-years in. He's not asking for a little light bondage here; he's asking for something huge and if getting that is critical to his sexual fulfillment, then he should have been upfront with you before any marriage vows were exchanged.

It's not okay for him to repeatedly push boundaries you've explicitly set. If he wants to talk about those boundaries, that's what counseling is for and he should go into it fully understanding that all the counseling in the world may not result in you adjusting your boundaries. And that's okay.

He forfeited his right to be resentful about your boundaries by not being honest with you about his fantasies early on and giving you both an opportunity to figure out if this would be a dealbreaker.
posted by brookeb at 12:55 PM on July 9, 2015 [6 favorites]


Yeah, I can see how this may be related to his attitude towards cheating. It's like he owns your sexuality this way and he controls everything.

He's obviously not thinking this through. Do you believe he still has the same prior attitudes towards cheating, but doesn't consider this cheating?

I'm almost tempted for you to get him to see that this is a terrible idea- if for instance, you'd sleep with someone you knew well, who was single and had a crush on you-and didn't specifically fantasize about you being married- boom, there goes the marriage, up in flames. You have to very specifically find the type of person who is only interested in sex and probably part of the kink community to even make this work at all. Even then, things can go wrong.

Perhaps your husband hasn't actually thought this through? Dreams are very different from reality. There's a really good chance he can't handle this at all, especially if you actually do feel emotionally distant from him and closer to the other person.

I think you need to tell him that besides you simply not liking the idea, it's very likely to implode your marriage. So either way- if you do it, or if he keeps hounding you- your marriage is destroyed. If he truly feels like he can't live without this, then your marriage is destroyed too.

I guess what I'm saying is, you can use his attitude towards cheating as leverage here. Perhaps that you are so faithful and really don't like the idea actually is what makes him feel safe enough to ask, in a twisted way. You see what I mean? If you liked the idea...if you used it as a way out of the marriage...if the other man really liked you...would he want it then?

Your husband is pretty mixed up here. There's also the chance he's just oblivious- you sound like a fairly calm and rational person and a lot of times people don't "get it" when you are the type to always keep your cool. Maybe "losing it" in front of him will make the NO sink in.
posted by quincunx at 1:11 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


I agree with those above that he is being really shitty and not respecting your consent by not letting this go. You shouldn't have to be the person teaching him this basic BASIC truth about sex.

causing enormous strain on the marriage...
he is asking me to commit adultery and compromise the very foundation of my self respect.


He needs to hear this. You need to make the same ultimatum to him that he did to you. "No more asking or the next man I have sex with will be my next husband? Clear?"

He's acting like a dumb child. If you want him to listen, you might need to talk to him like one.
posted by French Fry at 1:17 PM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]


I had a bf (notice the past tense) who every week or so would insist on us having a threesome. I'm not into it, never was, my answer was always no. He kept asking, which either meant he didn't give a shit about what I really thought or that he thought that by asking over and over I'd finally give in. It turned out, both my guesses were correct. He didn't respect me at all. I'm glad I always said no. Long story short - you're not overreacting. You don't wanna do it, don't do it. I agree with French Fry, he's being disrespectful.
posted by dragonbaby07 at 1:51 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


I've posted nearly 900 answers here, and in nearly all of them I've tried to recast the problem as something other than a problem. Usually problems are just stubbornly-held perspectives that needed to pivot a bit. However this is a problem. But let me nonetheless try to reframe the perspective a bit differently. Because I think it's something other than the surface issues.

Ideally, a couple's sex life is an expression of love. A sacrament. People who don't know that are content with a sex life that's simply an expression of sex. An activity. Helping each other "get off". Mostly physiological. People who find great value in that sort of thing don't know what love is. Pity.

I, like everyone else, am a nest of turn-ons, turn-offs, fetishes, desires, revulsions, and fantasies. But that's all sex stuff. If I'm truly in love with someone, none of that stuff enters the equation. Love is a much much deeper plain.. Having realized - and experienced - that truth, I'm uninterested in pursuing those more superficial fascinations. "Getting off" has less attraction when you'e experienced deeply synchronized love.

I don't think the specifics (much less the morality) of your husband's fascination matters very much. Our fantasies are our fantasies, and they're not to be judged. HOWEVER: you're not his sex robot. Your relationship is supposed to be deeper. If getting off is an obsession, then love isn't enough. And if love isn't enough, then love isn't there. Love is ALWAYS enough if it's really there. I'm afraid that's the underlying problem.

Furthermore, he's pressing this on you against your wishes. The fact that he's pushing something gross isn't even the issue. He's showing enormous lack of consideration and respect. That's not how you treat a loved one. Again: love isn't there. And counseling won't put love there.
posted by Quisp Lover at 2:07 PM on July 9, 2015 [8 favorites]


Does it have to be in front of him? What if you tell him fictional stories about how you fucked another guy at work during lunch or something? May be only treating the symptom, not the real problem, but if it helps...
posted by ctmf at 2:20 PM on July 9, 2015


So, was all the cheating in his past relationships from when he watched his girlfriends have sex with strangers in front of him so he could get his jollies off?

I would seriously ask him this question. And I would seriously call a marriage counselor. I get that he has a fetish and that's fine, but you should not be pressured into doing something that doesn't also work for you when you feel it compromises how you feel about yourself. This isn't like "Try this butt plug once and see if you like it," this is "Please do something you will probably hate that will leave an indelible effect on how you feel about yourself, forever."

If, in his mind, you having sex with someone else equals both the end of the marriage and the only way to make him happy - you can't win! He really needs to talk these conflicting desires out with a professional, and perhaps you should give him the time and space to do that, on his own, if he wants to. If he doesn't want to, then give him all the time he could possibly want to fester with his ridiculous no-win fantasies.
posted by mibo at 2:48 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


Even if we give your husband the benefit of the doubt and say this is a recent kink, its really up to him to make things work again if he wants.

You have been clear you don't want this. He needs to decide how important it really is to him. If he can't live without this fetish, then you two are at an impasse and I think divorce is the only option. If he can, then he needs to shut up about it and keep any fantasies in his head.

IMO there's nothing at all wrong with his fantasy. But he's been way too pushy, and he hasn't been listening to you.

Sometimes two people are not sexually compatible, and sometimes that takes years to discover. Since you know you don't want to do this, and it's not a reasonable thing for you to do if you're not interested, he has to choose between having his kink and having you. (And realistically you need to force this choice on him, because he probably won't do that on his own)
posted by thefoxgod at 3:07 PM on July 9, 2015


This is terrible. This is beyond disrespectful, this is bullying, and psychological torture.

From what I can tell, you can't get him to understand your perspective because he doesn't want to.

Look after yourself, anonymous, and stay true to you - there's nothing wrong with you for not wanting to accommodate this fantasy, especially as you sound level-headed, articulate, and have communicated this in this fashion to your husband.
posted by NatalieWood at 6:09 PM on July 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


Sometimes things are broken, and can be fixed. So they get fixed.

Sometimes things are broken, and can't be fixed, because they are REALLY broken. Even trying hard doesn't work, because it is REALLY broken. These things get thrown out, and you go looking for a new one. That is not always simple or easy, because you got attached to them, but you do it anyway because it is right and best for you.
posted by GeeEmm at 7:16 PM on July 9, 2015


========
If, in his mind, you having sex with someone else equals both the end of the marriage and the only way to make him happy - you can't win!
========


That's very true, from the OP's perspective and from the perspective of anyone with the slightest rationality.

However, in my experience, sex stuff is not rational, nor should it be. What we crave isn't our choice, and it's often at sharp conflict with our beliefs and our everyday personas. It's unfair - or at least unrealistic - to insist that people show logical consistency between their cognitive and their sexual selves.

Per my posting above, I'd just let the specifics of his obsession be. It is what it is. The issue isn't what he wants, it's how he sees you. And that, alas, seems to be as an empty shell to portray the fantasies in his head, regardless of your own feelings and desires. And (whatever those fantasies might be), that's not only not loving, it's not humane. Especially the way he's gone about it.

I'm a "work with what you've got" kind of guy. A lemonade-from-lemons-maker. But, as I said above, I've got nothing for you on this. I can't see a way counseling could make this a good relationship. Of course, I don't know anything about you....but even considering the vast dark matter of possible extenuating circumstance - i.e. even assuming he's otherwise an awesome great guy in absolutely every other way - I see two choices: 1. protracted pain, or 2. rip-bandaid pain.

I'm really really sorry. But every good thing I've ever experienced launched from a bad thing. Concentrate as much as you can on making this something that, years from now, you'll recognize was a moment of growth and positive repositioning for you. Make this one of those many things you one day think was for the best. Take that position as early as you possibly can, so you can seize upon the serendipity that will bring you there.
posted by Quisp Lover at 7:56 PM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


Let's forget him for a moment. You're talking about him, we're talking about him, he's only thinking about him, so forget HIM for a minute and let's talk about YOU.

I've been there, where you are so sad and so upset and so angry that you can't decide if you want to scream or cry so you end up scream-crying into a pillow and it feels like someone is physically eviscerating you, because you just cannot process the fact that someone who is supposed to love you would be so awful and so obtuse and keep pushing when you have obviously said NO. It feels awful and I totally sympathize. It can almost feel like you are living in some weird parallel world, and it's really uncomfortable and hurts your brain. You're not alone and as everyone above has pointed out, you're not the one who's acting badly here. You've lost it this time because your brain has truly processed the thought that this may never stop. Up til now, you thought "OK now we're done and can go back to normal". But your brain has realized that this IS the new normal and it hurts so much because you were upfront and dealing in good faith, and he's voided that agreement.

I don't think you've been hard to understand. I don't think you need to say it a different way and maybe this time he'll understand. I think that's crap and it's another way our society says that the burden of communication falls entirely on the woman. ("Oh, if only she'd said it THIS WAY, as opposed to all the OTHER WAYS she said NO, then I TOTALLY would have backed off" is a thing that happens and a total chickenshit cop-out.) He has a responsibility as your husband to make his best effort to understand you, and "making me feel disrespected, inadequate in the bedroom, and was damaging our marriage" is plenty clear enough. If my partner said that to me, I'd be sitting up and taking notice, and if he can't do that, it's not your fault and not your thing to manage. (The NO post its are pretty funny though, and I would be totally tempted to do it, if only to point out that you've had to regress to a 3 year old's understanding of the world to get through to him).

Ok, so enough about him. What about you? It sounds like you really need a grounding in what is "normal", what constitutes acceptable behavior in our society, someone you can talk to who can say, "Yes, that is totally reasonable" - totally reasonable to feel, totally reasonable to say, totally reasonable to do. That would be a therapist. For you only. Forget the marriage counseling for now - you need to build yourself back into the strong woman you are at heart, and a therapist can really help with that. Once you've gotten your feet under you, then you can explore if you want to try the marriage counseling angle again.

In the meantime, while you are working on finding a therapist and getting that first appointment and really getting going, I would recommend doing some stuff on your own. Take a class. Go out for coffee with a good friend. Do things that nourish your soul and be your own best friend for awhile. If you somehow figure out a way through this with him, where he actually stops acting like a moron, great! You practiced some self care when you needed it, which is a great and healthy thing to do! If not, well, you're starting to build out your own support network, which you'll need as you process what comes next, whether it's separation or divorce.
posted by RogueTech at 8:56 PM on July 9, 2015 [7 favorites]


Your husband is reprehensible and you should walk away immediately. Even if you were interested in this kind of thing it can backfire spectacularly. Here's an interesting story, I have a friend who was married with kids in the 70s, around the time of swinging and key parties. Her husband was a prolific adulterer and they had grown apart but he wanted his adultery to be sanctioned by his wife. So he pressured her into going to a key party, where his current girlfriend and her husband would be. He hooked up with his girlfriend and attempted to get my friend to get together with this lady's husband. Well, they got to talking - and found out they got along better than anyone could have hoped for.

Fast forward to not very long at all and my friend walks out on her husband, takes the kids, moves in with this guy, gets a divorce and spends the next forty years together until his death. He became the love of her life.

I don't think you should go along with what your husband wants, I think you should drop him like a hot coal but it would be nice to fantasise about a scenario where you tell him you followed his suggestion about sleeping with another man, and hey! He's great and you're leaving for him, so thanks for that, fuck off.
posted by Jubey at 4:36 PM on July 10, 2015 [6 favorites]


Dude sounds like a fuckhead. Leave him.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:54 PM on July 14, 2015


I agree that this is a serious issue in your relationship, and that you are not overreacting.

However there are other ways to deal with serious issues in relationships besides immediately blowing up the relationship.

If I were in a position like this, my approach would be to:

a)let my partner know that this had become a serious isuse, one that COULD end the relationship if not resolved

b) let them know that I didn't think it was an issue that could be resolved without outside help, and that I was going to start by seeing a counselor, on my own at first, but that it would be likely that at some point they were going to need to attend as well for the relationship to become healthy again. I would invite them to also see a counselor on their own, but not make it an ultimatum. Forcing people to see a counselor rarely works.

c) realize that a solution is going to need to be values-based, (BOTH participants' values must be satisfied, in a mutually acceptable way) not emotion-based (ie, whoever has the strongest emotional response about an issue decides how it is resolved).

This situation might be the end of your relationship. But if there weren't already other reasons making you want to leave, you might very well find this situation worth working through. Such things CAN be worked through, in a win-win way. But outside help is almost always necessary, even if its role is only to provide some distance from the participants immediate emotional reactions so they can work on values-based solutions.
posted by lastobelus at 6:51 PM on August 1, 2015


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