Are muggings and home invasions really that rare in US cities?
July 4, 2015 4:49 PM Subscribe
I have trouble understanding why the US does not seem to have the violent random street crime epidemic that other countries south of the border suffer from. My region, for instance, (with a population of several millions) has a murder rate which is almost the same as the US average (8 per 100k people). Yet both locals and international visitors alike can tell you that the chances of being robbed on the city streets here are much higher than in say, Miami, L.A. or Chicago.
As a foreign observer, I am somehow surprised by how apparently rare muggings and home invasions seem to be for the average, "law-abiding" citizen in the US. I regularly meet and chat with visiting American college students and teachers, (among many other topics, about crime) and have yet to find somebody who has been robbed at gunpoint or knifepoint back in the US. And these Americans do not tend to be sheltered rich people from Ivy League universities who live in gated communities or fortified mansions.
Back here everyone I can think of (middle-class urban professionals) could tell you about either having been the victim of violent crime themselves or having witnessed it on the street, often more than once.
I have also noticed that middle-class American detached homes typically look very vulnerable for our "third-world" standards (no perimetral high wall/fence, no strong iron bars on windows and doors). Are home invasions really that rare there? An alarm system may help when the house is alone, but don't armed criminals ever try to enter homes and rob residents, for instance, while residents are returning home and opening their front door or driving into the garage? That happens a lot around here. I am aware of the fact that crime rates vary significantly from one district or neighborhood to another within the US. But, knowing that high crimes areas do exist in many US metropolitan areas, how difficult can it be for criminals there to travel to and raid the more affluent suburban areas? Is this a matter of there being significantly more police presence in middle and upper class neighbourhoods? Are there other factors involved?
As a foreign observer, I am somehow surprised by how apparently rare muggings and home invasions seem to be for the average, "law-abiding" citizen in the US. I regularly meet and chat with visiting American college students and teachers, (among many other topics, about crime) and have yet to find somebody who has been robbed at gunpoint or knifepoint back in the US. And these Americans do not tend to be sheltered rich people from Ivy League universities who live in gated communities or fortified mansions.
Back here everyone I can think of (middle-class urban professionals) could tell you about either having been the victim of violent crime themselves or having witnessed it on the street, often more than once.
I have also noticed that middle-class American detached homes typically look very vulnerable for our "third-world" standards (no perimetral high wall/fence, no strong iron bars on windows and doors). Are home invasions really that rare there? An alarm system may help when the house is alone, but don't armed criminals ever try to enter homes and rob residents, for instance, while residents are returning home and opening their front door or driving into the garage? That happens a lot around here. I am aware of the fact that crime rates vary significantly from one district or neighborhood to another within the US. But, knowing that high crimes areas do exist in many US metropolitan areas, how difficult can it be for criminals there to travel to and raid the more affluent suburban areas? Is this a matter of there being significantly more police presence in middle and upper class neighbourhoods? Are there other factors involved?
You might question whether the statistics for the foreign country or region are being under-reported. Also, murder is not the same as robbery or home invasion, and if your country has gun control (unlike the U.S.), property crimes may not lead to death as often.
posted by Atrahasis at 5:18 PM on July 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Atrahasis at 5:18 PM on July 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
The suburbs are key to understanding American lifestyle. They are designed to be away from problem areas where people riot or rob related to poverty, and they are very spaced apart relative to apartments. They also require cars to travel, and the cars are routinely probed visually by police, coming and going, checking plates, etc. Anyone with a stolen car or warrant is not going to risk getting pulled over along the access route in the day. At night it is much different. The suburbs are well lit and any home invasion (defined by most Americans as an armed attack on the inhabitants) is essentially threatening the neighborhood, and there will be no easy escape in a car that is identified leaving by a witness, and all they would need is a brief description of it. Furthermore, dogs are everywhere in yards and alert to any foot reconnaissance around a home. Alarms are used as well, but rarely bars on windows. Lastly, guns are common in homes and most people shooting an attacker will not be prosecuted, and they will likely win any lawsuit as well. It is very different if they shoot the wrong person, however.
posted by Brian B. at 5:32 PM on July 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 5:32 PM on July 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
Crime rates in the U.S. are the lowest in decades. From the OECD Better Life Index:
3.9% of people in OECD countries say they have been assaulted or mugged over the past 12 months. There are major differences, however, between countries. The rates for Canada, Japan, Poland, the United States and the United Kingdom are below 2% but they reach more than 6% in Chile, Israel and Belgium, and 12.8% in Mexico. Although the assault rate in the Russian Federation is in line with the OECD average with approximately 4%, almost 8% of people in Brazil say they have been assaulted or mugged over the past 12 months.posted by djb at 5:34 PM on July 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
[...]
In the United States, 1.5% of people reported falling victim to assault over the previous 12 months, much less than the OECD average of 3.9% and one of the lowest rates across the OECD.
Could you indicate where you're from, so we have something to compare it to?
posted by monospace at 5:36 PM on July 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by monospace at 5:36 PM on July 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
It depends on the area. For example, in NYC you can click around on this map and see how many crimes were reported in each precinct, and then get more data on what the crimes were. NYC is a very densely populated area, however, which will be much different from suburban areas. Still, as mentioned above, crime rates in the US (especially violent crimes like assault or robbery) overall are quite low.
posted by bedhead at 5:36 PM on July 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by bedhead at 5:36 PM on July 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I regularly meet and chat with visiting American college students and teachers, (among many other topics, about crime) and have yet to find somebody who has been robbed at gunpoint or knifepoint back in the US. And these Americans do not tend to be sheltered rich people from Ivy League universities who live in gated communities or fortified mansions.
On top of the low crime rate, you're not interacting with a representative cross-section of Americans. Anyone with/earning a college degree and the means to travel to a foreign country is relatively well-off (read the comments in the "Don't Worry About Money, Just Travel" thread for a sense of how even domestic travel is out of reach for many people), and [c]riminal offending and victimization are disproportionately concentrated among disadvantaged people living in economically distressed areas.
posted by djb at 5:49 PM on July 4, 2015 [18 favorites]
On top of the low crime rate, you're not interacting with a representative cross-section of Americans. Anyone with/earning a college degree and the means to travel to a foreign country is relatively well-off (read the comments in the "Don't Worry About Money, Just Travel" thread for a sense of how even domestic travel is out of reach for many people), and [c]riminal offending and victimization are disproportionately concentrated among disadvantaged people living in economically distressed areas.
posted by djb at 5:49 PM on July 4, 2015 [18 favorites]
Hi, I'm Nerd of the North. I have been robbed at gunpoint in the USA. Nice to meet you.
I have also had a home invasion though in that case the incident was accidental -- the invader was a young man who was drunk and stoned and wandered into my house when he found it unlocked, even though he doesn't live anywhere nearby.
posted by Nerd of the North at 6:12 PM on July 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have also had a home invasion though in that case the incident was accidental -- the invader was a young man who was drunk and stoned and wandered into my house when he found it unlocked, even though he doesn't live anywhere nearby.
posted by Nerd of the North at 6:12 PM on July 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
First off, are you sure about that number for homicide rates in the U.S.? The first thing I checked had it at 4.7, which was slightly below the global average of 6, but higher than just about any other wealthy nation.
Secondly, using gun deaths as a proxy for overall violent crime rates is difficult, because the U.S. is such an outlier in lax gun control. Violent crime rates in the U.S. are fairly low, generally comparable with other peer nations--except for homicides, that is. So if you just look at the homicide rate you might assume the overall crime rates are higher than they actually are. We have 4-5 times the murder rate of Spain, France, Germany and the UK, but definitely not 4-5 times the overall violent crime rate.
posted by skewed at 6:17 PM on July 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
Secondly, using gun deaths as a proxy for overall violent crime rates is difficult, because the U.S. is such an outlier in lax gun control. Violent crime rates in the U.S. are fairly low, generally comparable with other peer nations--except for homicides, that is. So if you just look at the homicide rate you might assume the overall crime rates are higher than they actually are. We have 4-5 times the murder rate of Spain, France, Germany and the UK, but definitely not 4-5 times the overall violent crime rate.
posted by skewed at 6:17 PM on July 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
Other examples that people are sometimes surprised by in America -- even in the bad area of town, there's no deposit for grocery carts and no bumpers to stop you from walking out of the lot with them. Supermarkets and hardware stores stock things like potting soil, flowers, ice, etc., outside of the checkout area, often in front of the store, and sometimes in the actual parking lot. You pay on the honor system and then go load up your car/bike/bag yourself, picking out what you paid for. It would be trivially easy to shoplift; nobody's ever checked my receipt. But "shrinkage" from this system is very low!
(We recently got an Aldi, which is a European supermarket chain, and you have to pay a 25-cent deposit to get a cart, which you get back when you're done, to reduce cart theft, and I find this so unspeakably annoying that I quit shopping there.)
W/r/t unsecure middle-class houses, that's probably something of an arms race, isn't it? If 95% of people put bars on their windows and security fences around their property, the 5% without bars and fences are going to get robbed a lot more often. But if 100% of homes lack bars and fences, why would a criminal pick one over another? (Actually, in the US, the answer is, they go down the street trying the back doors, and rob the one with the unlocked door.) The US also has a fairly regulated pawn shop sector; unloading stolen goods is harder than in many other countries. We had a spate of home invasion robberies where I live about a year ago, and the burglars had a hell of a time unloading the stuff they stole, since it's easy to track down high-value portable items like jewelry, laptops, etc., at local pawn shops. It's not a very profitable sort of crime.
Similarly, for a while my car's ignition was broken and I couldn't get the key out so I had to leave the key in the ignition and the doors unlocked when I went places; this happened to coincide with a time when I was going to a very high-poverty, high-crime neighborhood frequently for work, and parking on the street. I didn't really worry about it because, why would someone want to steal my car? It was a piece of shit with a crappy radio. (People steal radios out of cars, but mine was a piece of junk.) And if a car thief did drive off with my car, what would they do with it? It'd be reported stolen within an hour, there'd be an alert on the license plate so it'd be identified as stolen, and no local dealer would handle it without title papers. They'd have to take it to Chicago to get to a chop-shop to have it cut up for parts (many of which have their own trackable serial numbers), and that would mean the plates would get caught on toll booth cameras. Besides, I have insurance (as all cars in my state must, by law). It'd be shitty and upsetting and expensive, but insurance-deductible expensive, not new car expensive.
Basque13: "don't armed criminals ever try to enter homes and rob residents, for instance, while residents are returning home and opening their front door or driving into the garage?"
I honestly think it would make national news if a rash of, say, three of this sort of crime happened in one place so it was obviously a criminal modus operandi. It's pretty unthinkable; it's like a particularly unbelievable episode of one of the lesser cop dramas on TV. ("What if the gunman wasn't there when she got home, but SNUCK IN while she was pulling into the garage?") You hear of it every so often, but I don't think it's very common at all and it had not occurred to me to worry about it before this thread (so thanks for that!).
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:17 PM on July 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
(We recently got an Aldi, which is a European supermarket chain, and you have to pay a 25-cent deposit to get a cart, which you get back when you're done, to reduce cart theft, and I find this so unspeakably annoying that I quit shopping there.)
W/r/t unsecure middle-class houses, that's probably something of an arms race, isn't it? If 95% of people put bars on their windows and security fences around their property, the 5% without bars and fences are going to get robbed a lot more often. But if 100% of homes lack bars and fences, why would a criminal pick one over another? (Actually, in the US, the answer is, they go down the street trying the back doors, and rob the one with the unlocked door.) The US also has a fairly regulated pawn shop sector; unloading stolen goods is harder than in many other countries. We had a spate of home invasion robberies where I live about a year ago, and the burglars had a hell of a time unloading the stuff they stole, since it's easy to track down high-value portable items like jewelry, laptops, etc., at local pawn shops. It's not a very profitable sort of crime.
Similarly, for a while my car's ignition was broken and I couldn't get the key out so I had to leave the key in the ignition and the doors unlocked when I went places; this happened to coincide with a time when I was going to a very high-poverty, high-crime neighborhood frequently for work, and parking on the street. I didn't really worry about it because, why would someone want to steal my car? It was a piece of shit with a crappy radio. (People steal radios out of cars, but mine was a piece of junk.) And if a car thief did drive off with my car, what would they do with it? It'd be reported stolen within an hour, there'd be an alert on the license plate so it'd be identified as stolen, and no local dealer would handle it without title papers. They'd have to take it to Chicago to get to a chop-shop to have it cut up for parts (many of which have their own trackable serial numbers), and that would mean the plates would get caught on toll booth cameras. Besides, I have insurance (as all cars in my state must, by law). It'd be shitty and upsetting and expensive, but insurance-deductible expensive, not new car expensive.
Basque13: "don't armed criminals ever try to enter homes and rob residents, for instance, while residents are returning home and opening their front door or driving into the garage?"
I honestly think it would make national news if a rash of, say, three of this sort of crime happened in one place so it was obviously a criminal modus operandi. It's pretty unthinkable; it's like a particularly unbelievable episode of one of the lesser cop dramas on TV. ("What if the gunman wasn't there when she got home, but SNUCK IN while she was pulling into the garage?") You hear of it every so often, but I don't think it's very common at all and it had not occurred to me to worry about it before this thread (so thanks for that!).
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:17 PM on July 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
Breaking into an American home when there are people in it is significantly more risky here because of Castle Doctrine and high rates of gun ownership. Hell, just knocking on someone's door after dark might get you shot in a lot of places and the shooter probably won't even be prosecuted for it. It's waaaaaaaaay less risky for criminals to just case a neighborhood and then wait until there is nobody home to break in.
Meanwhile, there's the Freakanomics hypothesis that one reason violent crime has fallen so much in the United States is legal abortion. Basically, the authors argue that, all else equal, the kids from unwanted pregnancies are far more likely to grow up to be criminals so once it became legal to abort those pregnancies you naturally see a drop in crime ~20 years later. Since abortion is more restricted in Latin America and even where legal chosen less often because Catholicism, those future violent criminals are still being born.
posted by Jacqueline at 6:45 PM on July 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
Meanwhile, there's the Freakanomics hypothesis that one reason violent crime has fallen so much in the United States is legal abortion. Basically, the authors argue that, all else equal, the kids from unwanted pregnancies are far more likely to grow up to be criminals so once it became legal to abort those pregnancies you naturally see a drop in crime ~20 years later. Since abortion is more restricted in Latin America and even where legal chosen less often because Catholicism, those future violent criminals are still being born.
posted by Jacqueline at 6:45 PM on July 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
Some people say that the high rate of gun ownership in the US represents a major deterrent to those thinking of trying to make a living by doing violent home invasions. A lot of people who try to do that end up dead or wounded because the inhabitant shoots back.
(Other people monumentally hate that argument, I just thought I'd mention.)
Anyway, there are stories in the papers all the time about people who shoot to kill when someone kicks in their door or otherwise invades their dwelling. (Here's a recent example though it was a motel room, not a home.) Whether it's really common or not, there's enough publicity about it to cause double thoughts in people inclined to that kind of thing.
Armed robberies of stores and restaurants increasingly end the same way. As the number of "concealed carry" licenses has risen precipitously in the last few years (in some states), we see stories in the paper more and more often where some perp tries to commit armed robbery, and a random citizen who is carrying shoots him.
And public opinion about this kind of thing is different here. In a case where something like that happened in some random state in Europe, people would be outraged and there's a good chance that the armed citizen would face prosecution. Here in the US there will be a lot of cheering and the police usually announce "No charges will be filed."
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 6:54 PM on July 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
(Other people monumentally hate that argument, I just thought I'd mention.)
Anyway, there are stories in the papers all the time about people who shoot to kill when someone kicks in their door or otherwise invades their dwelling. (Here's a recent example though it was a motel room, not a home.) Whether it's really common or not, there's enough publicity about it to cause double thoughts in people inclined to that kind of thing.
Armed robberies of stores and restaurants increasingly end the same way. As the number of "concealed carry" licenses has risen precipitously in the last few years (in some states), we see stories in the paper more and more often where some perp tries to commit armed robbery, and a random citizen who is carrying shoots him.
And public opinion about this kind of thing is different here. In a case where something like that happened in some random state in Europe, people would be outraged and there's a good chance that the armed citizen would face prosecution. Here in the US there will be a lot of cheering and the police usually announce "No charges will be filed."
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 6:54 PM on July 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
even in the bad area of town, there's no deposit for grocery carts and no bumpers to stop you from walking out of the lot with them
This is not universal. Every place I've seen in the Bay Area in the past 15 years has electronically-locking wheels on their shopping carts, which will freeze up if you take the cart outside a perimeter.
But to the OP, one thing to consider if the question isn't "why is the U.S. so safe" but (presuming they're from Latin America, as their question would suggest) "why is Latin America so dangerous?". Potential answers to that question include relatively low respect for the rule of law (because of the history of colonialism and autocracy in so many Latin American countries) combined with a relative lack of interest in good governance, and very high levels of income inequality (not that the U.S. is so great by this measure). Bear in mind that the U.S. also devotes a huge portion of its national budget to law enforcement, and that organized crime draws the attention of a well-funded, motivated, and relatively non-corrupt enforcement infrastructure.
posted by asterix at 7:05 PM on July 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
This is not universal. Every place I've seen in the Bay Area in the past 15 years has electronically-locking wheels on their shopping carts, which will freeze up if you take the cart outside a perimeter.
But to the OP, one thing to consider if the question isn't "why is the U.S. so safe" but (presuming they're from Latin America, as their question would suggest) "why is Latin America so dangerous?". Potential answers to that question include relatively low respect for the rule of law (because of the history of colonialism and autocracy in so many Latin American countries) combined with a relative lack of interest in good governance, and very high levels of income inequality (not that the U.S. is so great by this measure). Bear in mind that the U.S. also devotes a huge portion of its national budget to law enforcement, and that organized crime draws the attention of a well-funded, motivated, and relatively non-corrupt enforcement infrastructure.
posted by asterix at 7:05 PM on July 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
In fact home invasions are very rarely foiled by gun-wielding homeowners, it is not legal to shoot intruders in all states (although it may be a valid defense), and home invasion rates are typically LOWER in areas and states with less gun ownership. Guns are not, statistically, a significant deterrent against property crime in the US.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:06 PM on July 4, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:06 PM on July 4, 2015 [20 favorites]
Off-hand guess, but one I feel pretty strongly about:
There are more crimes in your home country because it has a higher crime rate in general than the US (which currently has historically low crime rates), because of poverty, social infrastructure, or some other reason.
However, the US murder rate is artificially inflated by our absurd amount of gun ownership and violence, to the point where it equals the murder rate in your home country (even though overall US crime is much lower).
posted by drjimmy11 at 7:27 PM on July 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
There are more crimes in your home country because it has a higher crime rate in general than the US (which currently has historically low crime rates), because of poverty, social infrastructure, or some other reason.
However, the US murder rate is artificially inflated by our absurd amount of gun ownership and violence, to the point where it equals the murder rate in your home country (even though overall US crime is much lower).
posted by drjimmy11 at 7:27 PM on July 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
On review, skewed already said what I was trying to say.
posted by drjimmy11 at 7:29 PM on July 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by drjimmy11 at 7:29 PM on July 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
BTW, if you want some statistics, according to this article there were 191 home invasions in Oakland (a city of ~400K people) in 2014. It's been averaging ~185/year for the past 5 years.
Also bear in mind that the low crime rate in the U.S. is as, djb says, a recent change. If you'd had this conversation with people living in New York City in the '80s or early '90s, you'd have likely heard many more stories of muggings.
posted by asterix at 7:29 PM on July 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also bear in mind that the low crime rate in the U.S. is as, djb says, a recent change. If you'd had this conversation with people living in New York City in the '80s or early '90s, you'd have likely heard many more stories of muggings.
posted by asterix at 7:29 PM on July 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
We have 4-5 times the murder rate of Spain, France, Germany and the UK, but definitely not 4-5 times the overall violent crime rate.
That's actually not so clear. See, in particular, point 8.
posted by asterix at 7:35 PM on July 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's actually not so clear. See, in particular, point 8.
posted by asterix at 7:35 PM on July 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: There are more crimes in your home country because it has a higher crime rate in general than the US
Actually, if my city was in the US, it would be included (because of its size) and rank as having the 28th lowest murder rate in this list of murder rates in the 73 largest US cities. But for some strange reason, it would rank as having the 72nd lowest (virtually the worst) robbery rate.
After some comments here, I get the impression that widespread gun-ownership by US civilians and laws protecting their use in self-defense may play some role in deterring criminals from attacking homes. More importantly, I sense that the risk-benefit ratio for a small time street criminal career is much worse in the US than it is in other places considering the American law enforcement and judicial system.
posted by Basque13 at 7:44 PM on July 4, 2015
Actually, if my city was in the US, it would be included (because of its size) and rank as having the 28th lowest murder rate in this list of murder rates in the 73 largest US cities. But for some strange reason, it would rank as having the 72nd lowest (virtually the worst) robbery rate.
After some comments here, I get the impression that widespread gun-ownership by US civilians and laws protecting their use in self-defense may play some role in deterring criminals from attacking homes. More importantly, I sense that the risk-benefit ratio for a small time street criminal career is much worse in the US than it is in other places considering the American law enforcement and judicial system.
posted by Basque13 at 7:44 PM on July 4, 2015
To shock you even more, there's an awful lot of areas in the U.S. where people either don't lock up their house at all, don't always lock it up when they leave (and sort of shrug if they forget), and I'd have to say that most I know don't lock up when they're home... and even if it's locked, some or all of the windows are open or unlocked.
posted by stormyteal at 7:50 PM on July 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by stormyteal at 7:50 PM on July 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
Oh, and I should add... this isn't only in "well-off" areas by any means. It's non-BIG-city, which often with a very large population of low-income folk mixed in with middle-class and a handful of upper.
posted by stormyteal at 7:53 PM on July 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by stormyteal at 7:53 PM on July 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
After some comments here, I get the impression that widespread gun-ownership by US civilians and laws protecting their use in self-defense may play some role in deterring criminals from attacking homes
I would caution reaching that conclusion. I live in a country with low gunownership and I know no one who has had their home invaded or were victims of a violent street attack. Both are extremey rare here. I think social equality issues are more at play, we are a very stable country, have a social safety net, a culture that respects the rule of law etc.
posted by kitten magic at 8:00 PM on July 4, 2015 [20 favorites]
I would caution reaching that conclusion. I live in a country with low gunownership and I know no one who has had their home invaded or were victims of a violent street attack. Both are extremey rare here. I think social equality issues are more at play, we are a very stable country, have a social safety net, a culture that respects the rule of law etc.
posted by kitten magic at 8:00 PM on July 4, 2015 [20 favorites]
Anecdotally, my experience confirms that of your students, and I've spent 40+ years living in a huge city, with friends and homes across all diversities and locations. I haven't lived in a detached home since I was six and I don't really fear break-ins or robberies. I'm not sure the gun hypothesis is universal, because I don't think many homeowners here have guns; wealthier people are more likely to have elaborate and private security systems to deter crime. I actually own a handgun but it's strictly for use at the range and is unloaded at home, which is not uncommon.
But life is very different across this country: a few years ago I went to visit a BF who lived in Lancaster, PA, where there are enormous fields of corn that grow right up to the side of major streets. After seeing a few of these I finally asked, "How can they do that? Don't people just steal the corn? It's right there!" Apparently no, people don't steal the corn.
This is not universal. Every place I've seen in the Bay Area in the past 15 years has electronically-locking wheels on their shopping carts, which will freeze up if you take the cart outside a perimeter.
Same in L.A.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:05 PM on July 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
But life is very different across this country: a few years ago I went to visit a BF who lived in Lancaster, PA, where there are enormous fields of corn that grow right up to the side of major streets. After seeing a few of these I finally asked, "How can they do that? Don't people just steal the corn? It's right there!" Apparently no, people don't steal the corn.
This is not universal. Every place I've seen in the Bay Area in the past 15 years has electronically-locking wheels on their shopping carts, which will freeze up if you take the cart outside a perimeter.
Same in L.A.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:05 PM on July 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I sense that the risk-benefit ratio for a small time street criminal career is much worse in the US than it is in other places considering the American law enforcement and judicial system.
I think this is probably a big, big piece of the puzzle*. And all but the most desperate most opportunistic perpetrators will aim for "victimless" crimes - theft or burglary from a business, which has insurance.
*As far as white victims go.
But here's the other thing: we have working poor, intermittently homeless people, and more or less permanently homeless people, but there is really nowhere in the US where we have systemic/quasi-institutionalized abject slum poverty the way you see in, for example, Central and South America or Africa. We do not have favelas, we don't have the massive hillsides/landfills covered in corrugated tin shacks with no running water or electricity like I can see 20 minutes across the border in Tijuana.
We put those people in our for-profit prisons instead. A slum or a favela sits at the bottom of a significant economical hierarchy that benefits police, "private enforcers", landowners, and city administrators. In the US, it's the prisons generating that economy.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:14 PM on July 4, 2015 [31 favorites]
I think this is probably a big, big piece of the puzzle*. And all but the most desperate most opportunistic perpetrators will aim for "victimless" crimes - theft or burglary from a business, which has insurance.
*As far as white victims go.
But here's the other thing: we have working poor, intermittently homeless people, and more or less permanently homeless people, but there is really nowhere in the US where we have systemic/quasi-institutionalized abject slum poverty the way you see in, for example, Central and South America or Africa. We do not have favelas, we don't have the massive hillsides/landfills covered in corrugated tin shacks with no running water or electricity like I can see 20 minutes across the border in Tijuana.
We put those people in our for-profit prisons instead. A slum or a favela sits at the bottom of a significant economical hierarchy that benefits police, "private enforcers", landowners, and city administrators. In the US, it's the prisons generating that economy.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:14 PM on July 4, 2015 [31 favorites]
I would also highlight US cultural devotion to private property, sometimes to a ridiculous degree where people are allowed to do crazy things. But it also manifests in a strong cultural respect for ownership, and people will go out of their way to return lost objects. US cities are also notably clean, not because we have such great sanitation departments but because littering has become associated with disrespect for other people's property.
"How can they do that? Don't people just steal the corn? It's right there!"
Well for starters, that's almost certainly feed corn so you'll be pretty disappointed when you try to eat it!
Also it's like $4 a bushel, which is like 10 cents a pound, that'd be a terrible crime. Youd have to steal a literal metric ton to make $200! You're better off stealing the liquid ammonia fertilizer -- sitting unattended in tanks in the field -- to cook meth with, which is a thing that happens. I do hear avocado theft is a legit problem in California avocado farms; they sell for $1/pound.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:45 PM on July 4, 2015 [10 favorites]
"How can they do that? Don't people just steal the corn? It's right there!"
Well for starters, that's almost certainly feed corn so you'll be pretty disappointed when you try to eat it!
Also it's like $4 a bushel, which is like 10 cents a pound, that'd be a terrible crime. Youd have to steal a literal metric ton to make $200! You're better off stealing the liquid ammonia fertilizer -- sitting unattended in tanks in the field -- to cook meth with, which is a thing that happens. I do hear avocado theft is a legit problem in California avocado farms; they sell for $1/pound.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:45 PM on July 4, 2015 [10 favorites]
One thing to consider, although I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's causative, is that one weird side-effect of the War on Drugs in the US is that, if you're somebody who can't get a job in the regular economy, there's a $60 billion/year black market which offers the "opportunity" for illegal but not necessarily violent jobs dealing drugs, which are probably a lot more attractive and offer a career progression that, while short and dangerous compared to the regular economy, is still a hell of a lot better than strongarm robbery. The WoD also ensures that there are always openings for drug dealers, because so many of them are being incarcerated. That combination of continued demand (for the service provided by the illegal market) plus enforcement (creating the job openings) seems rare among industrialized countries—mostly because it's insanely expensive for a society to maintain, but the US does it, and sucking the air out of other parts of the illegal economy (leaving nothing but the most desperate people to attempt robberies or burglaries) may be one of its only positive effects.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:15 PM on July 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:15 PM on July 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
I myself am reading this wondering why on earth you would think that street and property crime would be so common.
First, there was basically a "crime bubble" in the 70s and 80s that has since collapsed. The scenario in which is you moved to a city that "sooner or later" you would get mugged is no longer in effect.
The ubiquity of property insurance has meant that insurers have lobbied for laws that make it hard to unload stolen property. Most everything is traceable. Much of the risk of stolen property and stolen credit cards is assumed by insurers and banks, so they create systems that makes it easy to catch malefactors. Without a tightly controlled and traceable economy (eg, a large grey market for goods), there is a much larger incentive for property crime.
Property crimes that seem to be relatively common in the USA: bicycle theft. These are more or less untraceable. iPhones and laptops: traceable, but little desire from law enforcement to catch them.
Also, shoplifting from stores to acquire personal goods is much easier and less risky than breaking into someone's home.
posted by deanc at 9:53 PM on July 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
First, there was basically a "crime bubble" in the 70s and 80s that has since collapsed. The scenario in which is you moved to a city that "sooner or later" you would get mugged is no longer in effect.
The ubiquity of property insurance has meant that insurers have lobbied for laws that make it hard to unload stolen property. Most everything is traceable. Much of the risk of stolen property and stolen credit cards is assumed by insurers and banks, so they create systems that makes it easy to catch malefactors. Without a tightly controlled and traceable economy (eg, a large grey market for goods), there is a much larger incentive for property crime.
Property crimes that seem to be relatively common in the USA: bicycle theft. These are more or less untraceable. iPhones and laptops: traceable, but little desire from law enforcement to catch them.
Also, shoplifting from stores to acquire personal goods is much easier and less risky than breaking into someone's home.
posted by deanc at 9:53 PM on July 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Well for starters, that's almost certainly feed corn so you'll be pretty disappointed when you try to eat it!
I didn't know it was feed corn! So that's my city-girl perspective for you; I simply saw it as a crime of opportunity. But that got me thinking, and even though I only know a couple of people who have been mugged or burglarized, I don't think I know a single person who hasn't had A) their car stolen, B) their car stereo stolen, and/or C) something stolen from inside a car.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:07 PM on July 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I didn't know it was feed corn! So that's my city-girl perspective for you; I simply saw it as a crime of opportunity. But that got me thinking, and even though I only know a couple of people who have been mugged or burglarized, I don't think I know a single person who hasn't had A) their car stolen, B) their car stereo stolen, and/or C) something stolen from inside a car.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:07 PM on July 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't think I know a single person who hasn't had A) their car stolen, B) their car stereo stolen, and/or C) something stolen from inside a car.
I was thinking the same. I'm pretty sure that every car I've ever owned (6 or 7?) had been broken into at some point. I've had rental cars broken into, as well. And I'm not leaving valuables laying about or anything.
posted by cabingirl at 10:22 PM on July 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I was thinking the same. I'm pretty sure that every car I've ever owned (6 or 7?) had been broken into at some point. I've had rental cars broken into, as well. And I'm not leaving valuables laying about or anything.
posted by cabingirl at 10:22 PM on July 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's a bit population dependent. Random Joe or Jane off the street usually don't get robbed. It's the special cases like
* seniors, who are vulnerable population, esp. those who live alone in a crowded city
* tourists, who were busy gawking and/or don't know the bad neighborhoods to avoid
I've had my car window smashed twice, but AFAIK nothing's taken. The window smasher did rifle through some stuff, but I don't use a GPS. I have a PHONE stand. They got nothing.
My friends, however, had one's purse nabbed (she left it on a seat, realized it, went back and it's gone).
posted by kschang at 10:43 PM on July 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
* seniors, who are vulnerable population, esp. those who live alone in a crowded city
* tourists, who were busy gawking and/or don't know the bad neighborhoods to avoid
I've had my car window smashed twice, but AFAIK nothing's taken. The window smasher did rifle through some stuff, but I don't use a GPS. I have a PHONE stand. They got nothing.
My friends, however, had one's purse nabbed (she left it on a seat, realized it, went back and it's gone).
posted by kschang at 10:43 PM on July 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Car-related thefts/burglaries/vandalism is definitely way more common among the people I know than face-to-face or home-related crimes. Stolen cars are usually recovered, but a missing radio or a block full of car windows shot out by a pellet gun rarely result in anything more than an official report of the crime.
Regarding the shopping carts, the store my family shopped at in the 90's absolutely had the 25c deposit to unlock the chain. Electronic wheel locks replaced them at some point.
posted by clorox at 10:46 PM on July 4, 2015
Regarding the shopping carts, the store my family shopped at in the 90's absolutely had the 25c deposit to unlock the chain. Electronic wheel locks replaced them at some point.
posted by clorox at 10:46 PM on July 4, 2015
Anecdata: my husband has been robbed at gunpoint in the US.
posted by slidell at 10:48 PM on July 4, 2015
posted by slidell at 10:48 PM on July 4, 2015
I live in Australia - gun ownership is essentially illegal in cities and nobody has guns at home.
Most suburbs do not have bars on the windows, locked gates, etc.
I know of nobody that has ever been threatened with a gun. I don't know of any home invasions that have happened - with the owners home or not!
Crimes I have heard of:
- Vandalism (graffiti, broken windows etc.)
- Car theft/items stolen out of a car via breaking a window
- Unwatched bags, laptops, purses stolen
Most people aren't worried about home invasion. Doors are routinely left unlocked when people are home. Only organised criminals would have guns - random teenagers who got drunk and did something stupid wouldn't be able to get them.
And if a home is invaded, it's hard to get rid of whatever was stolen. Cars are very traceable (lots of cameras, lots of toll roads), other cities are a long way away so you probably would stay in the same city.
Most violent crime that makes the news is family members or friends of the victim (e.g. domestic violence/murder/rape.)
posted by Ashlyth at 11:29 PM on July 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Most suburbs do not have bars on the windows, locked gates, etc.
I know of nobody that has ever been threatened with a gun. I don't know of any home invasions that have happened - with the owners home or not!
Crimes I have heard of:
- Vandalism (graffiti, broken windows etc.)
- Car theft/items stolen out of a car via breaking a window
- Unwatched bags, laptops, purses stolen
Most people aren't worried about home invasion. Doors are routinely left unlocked when people are home. Only organised criminals would have guns - random teenagers who got drunk and did something stupid wouldn't be able to get them.
And if a home is invaded, it's hard to get rid of whatever was stolen. Cars are very traceable (lots of cameras, lots of toll roads), other cities are a long way away so you probably would stay in the same city.
Most violent crime that makes the news is family members or friends of the victim (e.g. domestic violence/murder/rape.)
posted by Ashlyth at 11:29 PM on July 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
2nding legal abortion...the rates line up almost perfectly IIRC, after you correct for the crime bubble of the 70s-80s (which itself lines up nearly perfectly with distribution of leaded gasoline fumes (higher in the cities, etc))
Another fun fact: the #1 murder weapon in America is the shovel. Who has a gun? Everybody's got a shovel.
posted by sexyrobot at 12:06 AM on July 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Another fun fact: the #1 murder weapon in America is the shovel. Who has a gun? Everybody's got a shovel.
posted by sexyrobot at 12:06 AM on July 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
After looking at some statistics that compare the US and UK violent crime rates, the net of which seems to be: in the US you have less of a chance of being the victim of a violent crime in general, but most violent crime that does happen is pretty violent (involves firearms), and the prevalence of firearms makes murdering someone pretty easy if you're motivated; in the UK there's a surprising degree of unarmed violent crime, but there aren't a lot of homicides.
Setting aside the homicide thing, which doesn't seem to be driven by rational incentives very much, it's hard to not see the violent crime difference as largely the product of incentive structures. In the US, robbery seems to be a high-risk/low-reward activity. You need a gun to viably threaten someone in a society that's often armed, and that ups the criminal ante a lot. Although the statistics are (as one can imagine) disputed, armed criminal suspects seem to get shot and killed by police a lot. (I mean, unarmed criminal suspects get shot and killed by police a lot, too, but if you're actually armed at the beginning of that confrontation...?) Mortal risk risk aside, the criminal penalties are severe. Rob three people leaving an ATM, given that you'll probably be armed to do it, and you're looking at life in prison—that's playing a pretty high-stakes table.
The anecdata in this thread seems to largely back this up; in the US, if you get robbed, it'll probably be at gunpoint. The person doing that robbery is, to be doing it, probably pretty desperate. It's not much of a way to make a living.
On the other side of the incentive coin, you have the drug trade, previously mentioned, which provides a lot of lower-risk 'opportunities', and you also have a few other uniquely American nonviolent crimes, like credit card fraud, or shoplifting (which isn't unique to the US but it's made almost uniquely easy due to how stores are designed), which have the additional benefit of being not only nonconfrontational (usually), but also apparently "victimless". "Carding" (by literally copying the numbers from the card) is ridiculously easy in the US; in places where Chip+PIN is the norm, it's seemingly a lot harder. Most Europeans I've talked to find the rate at which Americans have to replace their credit cards due to number skimming pretty appalling.
So you've got pressure on both sides away that seem to push people away from confrontational/interpersonal economic crime. I'm sure there are more factors on top of those, but I think they're part of the push-pull dynamic.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:27 AM on July 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
Setting aside the homicide thing, which doesn't seem to be driven by rational incentives very much, it's hard to not see the violent crime difference as largely the product of incentive structures. In the US, robbery seems to be a high-risk/low-reward activity. You need a gun to viably threaten someone in a society that's often armed, and that ups the criminal ante a lot. Although the statistics are (as one can imagine) disputed, armed criminal suspects seem to get shot and killed by police a lot. (I mean, unarmed criminal suspects get shot and killed by police a lot, too, but if you're actually armed at the beginning of that confrontation...?) Mortal risk risk aside, the criminal penalties are severe. Rob three people leaving an ATM, given that you'll probably be armed to do it, and you're looking at life in prison—that's playing a pretty high-stakes table.
The anecdata in this thread seems to largely back this up; in the US, if you get robbed, it'll probably be at gunpoint. The person doing that robbery is, to be doing it, probably pretty desperate. It's not much of a way to make a living.
On the other side of the incentive coin, you have the drug trade, previously mentioned, which provides a lot of lower-risk 'opportunities', and you also have a few other uniquely American nonviolent crimes, like credit card fraud, or shoplifting (which isn't unique to the US but it's made almost uniquely easy due to how stores are designed), which have the additional benefit of being not only nonconfrontational (usually), but also apparently "victimless". "Carding" (by literally copying the numbers from the card) is ridiculously easy in the US; in places where Chip+PIN is the norm, it's seemingly a lot harder. Most Europeans I've talked to find the rate at which Americans have to replace their credit cards due to number skimming pretty appalling.
So you've got pressure on both sides away that seem to push people away from confrontational/interpersonal economic crime. I'm sure there are more factors on top of those, but I think they're part of the push-pull dynamic.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:27 AM on July 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
The flip side of the drug trade is that a decent chunk (20-30% per Wikipedia) of low level property crime tends to be committed by addicts seeking to raise money to fund a drug addiction. While these crimes are problematic for victims, they are generally non-violent and tend to be committed by relatively hapless criminals, who are sometimes high at the time, and so these crimes are often not particularly successful and/or the culprits get caught sooner or later.
djb's point is important though. Not only are you not interacting with a representative group of Americans, the crime that gets press attention is not representative. Poor people robbing other poor people doesn't attract a lot of notice. It's also a lot more likely to go unreported to the authorities.
posted by zachlipton at 1:34 AM on July 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
djb's point is important though. Not only are you not interacting with a representative group of Americans, the crime that gets press attention is not representative. Poor people robbing other poor people doesn't attract a lot of notice. It's also a lot more likely to go unreported to the authorities.
posted by zachlipton at 1:34 AM on July 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
kevin drum has some very interesting thoughts regarding violent crime and exposure to lead.
posted by lescour at 3:36 AM on July 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by lescour at 3:36 AM on July 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
The #1 murder weapon in the U.S. is the gun. Not sure where sexyrobot got the shovel idea from.
posted by Slinga at 5:06 AM on July 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Slinga at 5:06 AM on July 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
to be doing it, probably pretty desperate. It's not much of a way to make a living.
Yes. Also, property crime doesn't scale. Because of the low rewards involved, it is limited almost entire to desperate individuals rather than organized groups who would be able to steal larger amounts of property from greater numbers of people faster and more efficiently. Thus it stays limited mostly to smash-and-grab crimes.
Also, as I mentioned before, to make property crime profitable, you can only steal what there's an active gray market for. Car parts require the intervention of professionals. There seems to be a pretty active market for stolen copper wire, but these tend to get stolen from abandoned buildings or public infrastructure, not individuals.
posted by deanc at 5:51 AM on July 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes. Also, property crime doesn't scale. Because of the low rewards involved, it is limited almost entire to desperate individuals rather than organized groups who would be able to steal larger amounts of property from greater numbers of people faster and more efficiently. Thus it stays limited mostly to smash-and-grab crimes.
Also, as I mentioned before, to make property crime profitable, you can only steal what there's an active gray market for. Car parts require the intervention of professionals. There seems to be a pretty active market for stolen copper wire, but these tend to get stolen from abandoned buildings or public infrastructure, not individuals.
posted by deanc at 5:51 AM on July 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
Where I live, in Atlanta, home and car burgalaries are very common. We do not leave anything of value in our car and frequently leave it unlocked at home so that people can rifle through it without breaking a window. People in our neighborhood do not have bars on their windows, but a lot of them are putting cages around their outside air conditioner/furnaces, because thieves have been cutting power to the house and taking those. Theft from houses under construction is huge: units like those, copper wire, plumbing fixtures, etc. Neighborhoods not far from ours do have bars on the windows.
We lock our house doors when we are home as well as when we are out because there has been a rash of not exactly home invasions where people just walk in, grab things, and walk out.
Muggings are not super common, but happen fairly often in parts of town with more nightlife, usually at gun point. People sitting at tables on the sidewalk in broad daylight in pretty ritzy areas have experienced grab and dash theft of their fancy cell phones.
(In addition to bars on his windows, one of my friends has created a very nice sign explaining that he has exotic snakes loose in his house (he does not). He mocked up a very official looking notice with a city seal explaining that anyone with loose snakes in their house must post a warning. When the house across the street burned down, the firefighters had a lot of questions about his sign.)
My general theory is that things are slightly worse in Atlanta than in other parts of the US because there is basically no middle class at all and the poor-rich divide is greater than in other parts of the US.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:53 AM on July 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
We lock our house doors when we are home as well as when we are out because there has been a rash of not exactly home invasions where people just walk in, grab things, and walk out.
Muggings are not super common, but happen fairly often in parts of town with more nightlife, usually at gun point. People sitting at tables on the sidewalk in broad daylight in pretty ritzy areas have experienced grab and dash theft of their fancy cell phones.
(In addition to bars on his windows, one of my friends has created a very nice sign explaining that he has exotic snakes loose in his house (he does not). He mocked up a very official looking notice with a city seal explaining that anyone with loose snakes in their house must post a warning. When the house across the street burned down, the firefighters had a lot of questions about his sign.)
My general theory is that things are slightly worse in Atlanta than in other parts of the US because there is basically no middle class at all and the poor-rich divide is greater than in other parts of the US.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:53 AM on July 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
Datapoint: I live in the UK. Guns here are heavily regulated. Almost nobody has them except farming communities where they all have shotguns, but even then the regulations for keeping a gun are steep.
I never heard of a home invasion in this country. I guess we must have them but it's very uncommon. I know one guy who was mugged, and my car got broken into a couple of times years ago.
The reasons I can come up with for the low crime rate are relatively low income inequality (although it's getting worse), and the availability of cheap electronic goods so that the portable stuff you could steal from my house easily just isn't worth much here.
There's a lot of technology that makes it hard to steal cars and hard to commit crime using a car without being caught.
posted by emilyw at 6:06 AM on July 5, 2015
I never heard of a home invasion in this country. I guess we must have them but it's very uncommon. I know one guy who was mugged, and my car got broken into a couple of times years ago.
The reasons I can come up with for the low crime rate are relatively low income inequality (although it's getting worse), and the availability of cheap electronic goods so that the portable stuff you could steal from my house easily just isn't worth much here.
There's a lot of technology that makes it hard to steal cars and hard to commit crime using a car without being caught.
posted by emilyw at 6:06 AM on July 5, 2015
I sense that the risk-benefit ratio for a small time street criminal career is much worse in the US than it is in other places considering the American law enforcement and judicial system
I think this might be true, and maybe culture and income inequality also play a role. But I don't know the answer. I have wondered about robbery/theft rates that vary by neighborhood where I live. I used to live in Oakland, which has by far the worst robbery rates in the U.S. A very high percentage of people I know living in Oakland have been mugged on the street, and I know one person who suffered through a home invasion of his apartment. Now I live in Berkeley (in a pretty fancy neighborhood), which is next to Oakland, and though I know statistically that there's a little crime here, I've never personally seen or heard of anything, and the rates are much lower. It's not a far drive for criminals. I don't know why Oakland criminals don't come here more often.
posted by three_red_balloons at 6:55 AM on July 5, 2015
I think this might be true, and maybe culture and income inequality also play a role. But I don't know the answer. I have wondered about robbery/theft rates that vary by neighborhood where I live. I used to live in Oakland, which has by far the worst robbery rates in the U.S. A very high percentage of people I know living in Oakland have been mugged on the street, and I know one person who suffered through a home invasion of his apartment. Now I live in Berkeley (in a pretty fancy neighborhood), which is next to Oakland, and though I know statistically that there's a little crime here, I've never personally seen or heard of anything, and the rates are much lower. It's not a far drive for criminals. I don't know why Oakland criminals don't come here more often.
posted by three_red_balloons at 6:55 AM on July 5, 2015
Some thoughts:
In the US, the perception is that it would be fairly difficult to regularly burgle middle-class houses without getting caught. Getting caught could mean losing many years of freedom. This is often much riskier than simply engaging in another trade, criminal or otherwise.
Let's turn the question around: what is the profile of the average burglar in your own country? Do they make a career out of it? Do they drive a car to and from their target? What is the law enforcement response, if any, to this activity?
Iron bars, etc. are structures which exist because it is known that nothing is going to stop the burglar from getting to the house in the first place. You don't need iron bars if you know that something more frightening is going to keep a burglar away, e.g. neighbors who will see you and call up Officer Friendly, or even just neighbors who will remember an out-of-place car.
In my admittedly limited personal experience, muggers tend to be already socially isolated. Muggers are not treated well in the areas they haunt. Muggers attract police attention. Police attention is bad. When my buddy was mugged in our old, "rough" neighborhood, a random dude with a random roll of bills immediately paid my friend what had been stolen from him. The unstated message was clear: let's settle this on the spot.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:29 AM on July 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
In the US, the perception is that it would be fairly difficult to regularly burgle middle-class houses without getting caught. Getting caught could mean losing many years of freedom. This is often much riskier than simply engaging in another trade, criminal or otherwise.
Let's turn the question around: what is the profile of the average burglar in your own country? Do they make a career out of it? Do they drive a car to and from their target? What is the law enforcement response, if any, to this activity?
Iron bars, etc. are structures which exist because it is known that nothing is going to stop the burglar from getting to the house in the first place. You don't need iron bars if you know that something more frightening is going to keep a burglar away, e.g. neighbors who will see you and call up Officer Friendly, or even just neighbors who will remember an out-of-place car.
In my admittedly limited personal experience, muggers tend to be already socially isolated. Muggers are not treated well in the areas they haunt. Muggers attract police attention. Police attention is bad. When my buddy was mugged in our old, "rough" neighborhood, a random dude with a random roll of bills immediately paid my friend what had been stolen from him. The unstated message was clear: let's settle this on the spot.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:29 AM on July 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
"(We recently got an Aldi, which is a European supermarket chain, and you have to pay a 25-cent deposit to get a cart, which you get back when you're done, to reduce cart theft"
This is mainly done to reduce labor costs--eliminates having to pay people to wrangle carts back to the front of the store.
posted by aerotive at 8:21 AM on July 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is mainly done to reduce labor costs--eliminates having to pay people to wrangle carts back to the front of the store.
posted by aerotive at 8:21 AM on July 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
And all but the most desperate most opportunistic perpetrators will aim for "victimless" crimes - theft or burglary from a business, which has insurance.
I think this is the most compelling argument. For lack of a better way to phrase it, here in America the idea of person to person crime like this is simply...un-American.
There's very much an attitude of self-determination in this country (The American Dream, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, capitalism and property ownership, etc), and I think the general attitude (whether or not it's actually true) is that if someone has more than you it's because they've earned it. Instead of robbing someone face to face and punishing one single person, it's more likely you point your crime towards the system (a business, a bank, more abstract things like taxes, etc). This could also explain why car thefts are relatively common. (Cars don't have faces.)
It's kind of weird to say it in a thread about crime and homicide, but one-on-one petty theft is rude in a way that just doesn't jive with American culture.
posted by phunniemee at 9:33 AM on July 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think this is the most compelling argument. For lack of a better way to phrase it, here in America the idea of person to person crime like this is simply...un-American.
There's very much an attitude of self-determination in this country (The American Dream, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, capitalism and property ownership, etc), and I think the general attitude (whether or not it's actually true) is that if someone has more than you it's because they've earned it. Instead of robbing someone face to face and punishing one single person, it's more likely you point your crime towards the system (a business, a bank, more abstract things like taxes, etc). This could also explain why car thefts are relatively common. (Cars don't have faces.)
It's kind of weird to say it in a thread about crime and homicide, but one-on-one petty theft is rude in a way that just doesn't jive with American culture.
posted by phunniemee at 9:33 AM on July 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Since the widely discredited Donahue-Levitt abortion-crime hypothesis has been mentioned a couple of times here, despite being widely discredited, I thought I'd pop in and mention that it's been widely discredited. It's such an appealing (and widely discredited) idea that it sticks in people's mind, so a special effort is necessary. We had a great discussion about the decrease in crime over on the blue awhile back. The abortion-crime effect, if there is any, was minimal in the 1990's and had no impact on the decrease during the 2000's.
And since I couldn't get Slings' link to work, here's another article showing guns to be far and away the most common murder weapon, at least in America.
posted by skewed at 10:00 AM on July 5, 2015 [6 favorites]
And since I couldn't get Slings' link to work, here's another article showing guns to be far and away the most common murder weapon, at least in America.
posted by skewed at 10:00 AM on July 5, 2015 [6 favorites]
Ha, I didn't even think to mention car break-ins because they are so common they don't even get lumped in with "crime" in my brain anymore. So perhaps stealing stuff from cars is what people do here instead of muggings and home invasions, since cars are so common and breaking into them is relatively safe and easy.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:05 AM on July 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 10:05 AM on July 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: what is the profile of the average burglar in your own country?
Typically, street criminals here are under 25, operate in pairs (in home invasions there would generally be more), carry handguns, move either on foot or ride a motorcycle (which provides a fast getaway) and wear helmets (which often makes identifying them more difficult) and are after small items (cell phones, wallets, bags, purses).
Do they make a career out of it?
Many of those who get arrested are found to have previous criminal records. Yet, they are unlikely to get trialed and jailed for long unless they had seriously injured or murdered someone during the assault.
Also, phunniemee's point about national work ethics makes sense to me. There is a deeply entrenched idea here that I do not see as equally popular in the US:
1) criminals are the victims of an unfair society and economic system which does not offer enough work opportunities to the poor (which to a certain extent is true).
2) consequently, perpetrators should not be punished harshly for their violent crimes, as they are everyone's fault for not making a more egalitarian society. This second assumption, in my view, sets a very pernicious and dangerous example for troubled working class youth and may partly account for our much higher robbery rate.
posted by Basque13 at 10:20 AM on July 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Typically, street criminals here are under 25, operate in pairs (in home invasions there would generally be more), carry handguns, move either on foot or ride a motorcycle (which provides a fast getaway) and wear helmets (which often makes identifying them more difficult) and are after small items (cell phones, wallets, bags, purses).
Do they make a career out of it?
Many of those who get arrested are found to have previous criminal records. Yet, they are unlikely to get trialed and jailed for long unless they had seriously injured or murdered someone during the assault.
Also, phunniemee's point about national work ethics makes sense to me. There is a deeply entrenched idea here that I do not see as equally popular in the US:
1) criminals are the victims of an unfair society and economic system which does not offer enough work opportunities to the poor (which to a certain extent is true).
2) consequently, perpetrators should not be punished harshly for their violent crimes, as they are everyone's fault for not making a more egalitarian society. This second assumption, in my view, sets a very pernicious and dangerous example for troubled working class youth and may partly account for our much higher robbery rate.
posted by Basque13 at 10:20 AM on July 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Crime is generally perpetrated by young persons. Many South and Central American countries have a younger average population than North American and European countries. The US had a crime surge that corresponded to our post-WWII baby boom. Britain did as well.
posted by irisclara at 12:16 PM on July 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by irisclara at 12:16 PM on July 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah that concept is not particularly popular in the US at all. There's a slightly increasing tendency in some areas to recognize that drug addicts need treatment rather than incarceration, but that's still a novel concept in many cases.
The closest equivalent idea we have here, specifically in California, works like this:
1) Putting criminals in prison is really expensive. We don't want to/can't raise taxes
2) Building new prisons is even more expensive. Did I mention that we're not raising taxes?
3) Our prisons are massively overcrowded and the federal government has ordered us time and time again to stop that by any means necessary
4) Consequently, perpetrators of non-violent crimes should serve vastly reduced sentences so as to reduce the prison population (and save money)
On the other hand, we tend to have a system that treats repeat offenders particularly harshly, which tends to reduce the number of people who make a successful long-term career out of crime. The flip-side to that is that ex-cons can have an extraordinarily difficult time getting legitimate employment, which can leave illegitimate work as their only option.
posted by zachlipton at 12:22 PM on July 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
The closest equivalent idea we have here, specifically in California, works like this:
1) Putting criminals in prison is really expensive. We don't want to/can't raise taxes
2) Building new prisons is even more expensive. Did I mention that we're not raising taxes?
3) Our prisons are massively overcrowded and the federal government has ordered us time and time again to stop that by any means necessary
4) Consequently, perpetrators of non-violent crimes should serve vastly reduced sentences so as to reduce the prison population (and save money)
On the other hand, we tend to have a system that treats repeat offenders particularly harshly, which tends to reduce the number of people who make a successful long-term career out of crime. The flip-side to that is that ex-cons can have an extraordinarily difficult time getting legitimate employment, which can leave illegitimate work as their only option.
posted by zachlipton at 12:22 PM on July 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have never been mugged. I have been the victim of a home-invasion robbery, kind of; we don't lock our doors, and the burglar walked into our house before we were awake in the morning and took a bunch of stuff out of my purse. The local police vigorously investigated the crime, caught the thief after they found her thumbprint on my library card (she was a notorious local drug addict), convicted her, and sentenced her to 5-8 years in prison. She apparently got clean in prison, was released after not quite three and a half years, and now lives in community sober housing for women trying to maintain sobriety after being released from prison, about a quarter mile from my house. She's going to school and has a job in the area, I see her pretty regularly. This incident was about 12 years ago and we still don't lock our doors.
My car, on the other hand, has been broken into (well, rifled through, we don't lock our car doors either) probably half a dozen times in the 17 years I've been living at this address. The thief takes the change out of our ashtray and sometimes my cell phone charger. I don't think I know anyone who hasn't had their car broken into. Perhaps the reason there's less face-to-face street crime is because of the high degree of car ownership in the US and the much lesser risk involved with breaking into a car instead of violently mugging someone.
posted by KathrynT at 1:16 PM on July 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
My car, on the other hand, has been broken into (well, rifled through, we don't lock our car doors either) probably half a dozen times in the 17 years I've been living at this address. The thief takes the change out of our ashtray and sometimes my cell phone charger. I don't think I know anyone who hasn't had their car broken into. Perhaps the reason there's less face-to-face street crime is because of the high degree of car ownership in the US and the much lesser risk involved with breaking into a car instead of violently mugging someone.
posted by KathrynT at 1:16 PM on July 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
The average US suburban home is not an attractive target for a number of reasons. A decent percentage have an alarm system that automatically calls the police. There may also be video surveillance. You need a car which will be conspicuous, and the neighbors are very likely to notice. And, as mentioned, there is about a 1/3 chance that there is a gun in the house.
It's much more common to enter an unoccupied home in the middle of the day than to force your way in at night. The tactic of meeting someone at the door and forcing your way in is more associated with rape than with theft.
posted by SemiSalt at 2:40 PM on July 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's much more common to enter an unoccupied home in the middle of the day than to force your way in at night. The tactic of meeting someone at the door and forcing your way in is more associated with rape than with theft.
posted by SemiSalt at 2:40 PM on July 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
how difficult can it be for criminals there to travel to and raid the more affluent suburban areas? Is this a matter of there being significantly more police presence in middle and upper class neighbourhoods? Are there other factors involved?
Other factors may include:
Other factors may include:
[pdf 16] Look across time, and neighborhoods at the top and bottom are remarkably stable. Deeply poor places tend to stay that way, but so do incredibly wealthy ones. And they do that by design, often through housing and zoning policies that keep out more affordable apartments and rental housing
[pdf 19] All over the United States since 1990, affluent households have moved into new areas at the urban fringe of major cities. Over the past two decades, these top and bottom tracts have grown far apart both physically and economically. As early as the 1990s, Robert Reich raised concerns about the “secession of the successful” into communities far away from low-to middle-income Americans (Reich 1991). Since then, incomes have risen even further and many more affluent households have relocated to tracts in the distant suburbs.via WaPo: These maps show the vastly separate worlds of the rich and poor
[...] Though not as far apart in space from the bottom neighborhoods as affluent suburban and exurban enclaves, top neighborhoods in central cities still are separate worlds from those of the nation’s lowest-income residents. And even the modest physical distance between top and bottom neighborhoods is often interrupted by physical barriers like Washington’s Anacostia River, the San Francisco Bay, and Interstate 35 in Austin.
a new analysis and nationwide map by the Urban Institute, shows inequality in a stark new light. It is not merely an economic phenomenon but a geographic one, too. It exists not just between households at the top and bottom, but between neighborhoods a few miles apart.posted by Little Dawn at 6:15 PM on July 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Put another way: The patterns of where people live in most metropolitan areas — Washington is not unique — take the problems of inequality and make them even worse. They concentrate poverty and concentrate privilege at the same time.
Also: I have a feeling that one reason for the decline in muggings (at least of people in middle- to upper-class areas) is that many (most?) middle- and upper-class people just don't carry cash any more. And the risk of trying to get a decent payback from a credit card before it's canceled (and the police are notified when it's used) is just not worth it.
If you want to mug someone for cash, you have to go to an area where people still cash their paychecks instead of having them direct-deposited to a checking account. I.e., areas where day-labor and under-the-table work is pretty common. I'm guessing that other countries may not have moved to credit and debit card use at quite the same rate that the US has.
posted by timepiece at 9:38 AM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you want to mug someone for cash, you have to go to an area where people still cash their paychecks instead of having them direct-deposited to a checking account. I.e., areas where day-labor and under-the-table work is pretty common. I'm guessing that other countries may not have moved to credit and debit card use at quite the same rate that the US has.
posted by timepiece at 9:38 AM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
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