Is it protocol to turn treatment to tv script for free to get the job?
June 26, 2015 8:30 AM Subscribe
I met a guy who is producing a tv show - he has raised half the money to shoot the pilot and seems to be legitimate. I told him I was a writer and he expressed interest in having me on board as one of the writers for the show.
He then asked me if I could turn his treatment (the overall idea of the first episode) into a proper script format. He did not offer to pay for this and it seemed like it was a way of auditioning / interviewing me.
More details and my question inside..
I told him I could do 10 pages, but that was just off the top of my head. Can anyone familiar with this industry tell me the standard way things like this work.
Should he pay for the 10 pages, should I be writing a shorter work (5 pages) to show him what I can do? Should I expect to be paid? Am I supposed to insert my own ideas or just flesh out the description, make the script read more professionally, etc.
How much would a newbie like me (i've only ever written my own screenplays) expect to be compensated if I get offered the chance to write the full episode?
Is there something I should be doing to protect myself so that whatever I write is mine? Or does it become his and is free to use since I signed a non disclosure agreement?
I told him I could do 10 pages, but that was just off the top of my head. Can anyone familiar with this industry tell me the standard way things like this work.
Should he pay for the 10 pages, should I be writing a shorter work (5 pages) to show him what I can do? Should I expect to be paid? Am I supposed to insert my own ideas or just flesh out the description, make the script read more professionally, etc.
How much would a newbie like me (i've only ever written my own screenplays) expect to be compensated if I get offered the chance to write the full episode?
Is there something I should be doing to protect myself so that whatever I write is mine? Or does it become his and is free to use since I signed a non disclosure agreement?
Just a gut feeling, but anyone who asks you to write for their tv show knowing nothing more than that you say you're a writer... probably isn't very legit. Would you ask the first lawyer you met to represent you in a divorce case knowing nothing about their track record, their specialty, or the quality of their work? I he's a legit tv producer he would have a team of writers already.
posted by MsMolly at 8:48 AM on June 26, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by MsMolly at 8:48 AM on June 26, 2015 [9 favorites]
No. No. No. No. No. This is bullshit. This is why the WGA has guidelines. Tell him no. No, no, no. If you write it for him without a contract in place, then you'll get charmingly fucked by somebody who will claim later that he wrote his own script based on his own treatment. A million, zillion times no. Tell this toolshed to wank his own script since this is obviously a vanity project.
posted by headspace at 8:48 AM on June 26, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by headspace at 8:48 AM on June 26, 2015 [11 favorites]
Okay, sorry, now that I'm done having a ragestroke, let me clarify. I'm a screenwriter. The way you audition for shows is by writing a spec script for a different show entirely. That way the producer is protected (you can't later say that he filmed your script/used your ideas) and you're protected (they can't use your material for free because your material has nothing to do with their production.)
Somebody who asks you to audition by writing for the show their producing is fishing for free material that they can and will use for all kinds of things. And most of those things will never, ever involve hiring you or compensating you. They need material to take to (other) producers, to directors, to actors, to networks in an attempt to get an attachment or a deal. All he's asking you to do is to help him make as much money as possible without your being entitled to any of it. Please do not do this.
posted by headspace at 8:52 AM on June 26, 2015 [19 favorites]
Somebody who asks you to audition by writing for the show their producing is fishing for free material that they can and will use for all kinds of things. And most of those things will never, ever involve hiring you or compensating you. They need material to take to (other) producers, to directors, to actors, to networks in an attempt to get an attachment or a deal. All he's asking you to do is to help him make as much money as possible without your being entitled to any of it. Please do not do this.
posted by headspace at 8:52 AM on June 26, 2015 [19 favorites]
Well, he also could just be an idiot who isn't at all legit but is trying to bootstrap something cool. Or he could just be blowing you off by politely letting you write something he's not even going to really look at. You could write a single scene (1-2 pages) and let him know you'd be happy to write more if he brought you on full time. Outside of Hollywood people write scripts for free for their friends and for exposure all the time. It usually doesn't lead to anything, but acting like he's some scam artist when he's likely just as inexperienced as you are is possibly unfair. So feel free to allow yourself to be exploited if you think the practice of writing something like this would be helpful. Just be clear with him about what you want, so he can accept or reject it. Don't try to guess what is fair and expected and then hope that everything works out.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:59 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:59 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
The work that he's asking you to do is certainly considered a paid job. In the land of productions with budgets, nobody ever does that for free.
In basically-no-budget-land, generally what you do is ask him how much he's paying for the work he's requesting and then see how he responds. You say he's raised some of the money to shoot a pilot, does that mean $3000 or $30,000? If this is an ultra-low-budget production, he will be offering at best token payment, and he's not going to have much to offer you in terms of a contract (nobody's offering contracts at that level, honestly, you rarely see any paperwork if it's not a union production, at least not until the budget is big enough to be visible from across the room).
I he's a legit tv producer he would have a team of writers already.
Producers don't always spring fully-formed out of the foreheads of other producers, sometimes they break in from the outside by, like, making something. There's plenty of bozos with an idea and a check from Grandmother, but there are people out there getting started from the ground up for real, too. BUT, the thing is that those projects almost never see the light of day (except maybe at a festival or competition), if this pilot has any success at all it will be as a resume to get this guy more work. You get no guarantee that you're the one he'll call if he does get more work, just a greater likelihood than if you don't participate.
To a certain extent, you have to make a call about how much you're willing to do to get in the game, and what you can get back out of it. My husband did a fair amount of work for sandwiches and maybe a few bucks for gas, but in his case he was making a choice between going and doing that or sitting around the house bored, and most importantly he wasn't providing creative work, which is a distinction made in the conversation he and I just had about this question. He'll PA for lunch and networking, but he only did free editing for as long as it took to impress a couple of people and get a reel built up. (And also, those projects were generally 1 day's work, not weeks.)
Those connections and experience and credits have value, but you have to be careful of people who will devalue work just to get it cheap. If someone comes to you (especially someone you have no history with) and says "well but exposure though" you can't take it. If you decide "I'm willing to invest X effort in this project that I think has legs, knowing I can only count on Y return, and Z is not guaranteed to me in any way," you get to choose that if you want.
Given that this appears to be just some guy and not someone you have any history with, I'd say be super wary. A pilot without a script is about as vaporous as a project gets. Ask more questions, learn to firm your spine and your boundaries, and never wonder what someone means - ask. Ask until they answer, or walk away.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:07 AM on June 26, 2015
In basically-no-budget-land, generally what you do is ask him how much he's paying for the work he's requesting and then see how he responds. You say he's raised some of the money to shoot a pilot, does that mean $3000 or $30,000? If this is an ultra-low-budget production, he will be offering at best token payment, and he's not going to have much to offer you in terms of a contract (nobody's offering contracts at that level, honestly, you rarely see any paperwork if it's not a union production, at least not until the budget is big enough to be visible from across the room).
I he's a legit tv producer he would have a team of writers already.
Producers don't always spring fully-formed out of the foreheads of other producers, sometimes they break in from the outside by, like, making something. There's plenty of bozos with an idea and a check from Grandmother, but there are people out there getting started from the ground up for real, too. BUT, the thing is that those projects almost never see the light of day (except maybe at a festival or competition), if this pilot has any success at all it will be as a resume to get this guy more work. You get no guarantee that you're the one he'll call if he does get more work, just a greater likelihood than if you don't participate.
To a certain extent, you have to make a call about how much you're willing to do to get in the game, and what you can get back out of it. My husband did a fair amount of work for sandwiches and maybe a few bucks for gas, but in his case he was making a choice between going and doing that or sitting around the house bored, and most importantly he wasn't providing creative work, which is a distinction made in the conversation he and I just had about this question. He'll PA for lunch and networking, but he only did free editing for as long as it took to impress a couple of people and get a reel built up. (And also, those projects were generally 1 day's work, not weeks.)
Those connections and experience and credits have value, but you have to be careful of people who will devalue work just to get it cheap. If someone comes to you (especially someone you have no history with) and says "well but exposure though" you can't take it. If you decide "I'm willing to invest X effort in this project that I think has legs, knowing I can only count on Y return, and Z is not guaranteed to me in any way," you get to choose that if you want.
Given that this appears to be just some guy and not someone you have any history with, I'd say be super wary. A pilot without a script is about as vaporous as a project gets. Ask more questions, learn to firm your spine and your boundaries, and never wonder what someone means - ask. Ask until they answer, or walk away.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:07 AM on June 26, 2015
I'm going to give you a good answer, since this happens to me and my roommate all the time and we work in the industry.
My roommate was approached to DP on a project that was billed as having a $2 million budget, and then after the director of said project got my roommate to read the script and get involved in scouting and pre-production, the producer offered him $1000/wk to shoot the fucking movie, which in all seriousness is probably less than what a PA would make on the worst show ever. They of course loved his reel, but the producer, who was hard to reach, simply would not budge. This of course, opens up all kind of confusing possibilities. Like, you are either incredibly stupid, incredibly rude, or most likely, you don't have $2 million.
The fact of the matter is without some form of representation there are not going to be any clear answers as to what kind of work you can or will do. Nobody is ever going to give you this answer. And, nobody is ever going to give you anything unless you ask for it. And as far as these type of informal relationships go, I think it's important to learn how to communicate basic needs in a friendly manner. This has always worked for me. Because you are not going to get anywhere by talking any other way.
As somebody who, without representation, at one point vigorously defended "my quote," I have to say that through experience I have grown and discovered the best formula is to do a mix of well-paid and free work, when I am totally comfortable doing so. There's always going to be something creative that won't pay and is fun to do. It's fine; not every moment of your career has to be a reflection of your worth. In all seriousness, some of the charitable work I've done has made my paid work real clear; I no longer look for approval or compliments, I don't try to get blood from stones, and I don't hop on to free projects that I kind of feel weird about because of the promise or illusion of money.
If you really don't know what you're doing, and you are flirting with doing this as a career, it might be worth calling the WGA. Ask for help. You're not alone. Sometimes great things can happen as long as you're taking care of yourself and growing as a writer. If you've never done this kind of job before, this could be a good experience. Hell, ask the guy who wants to hire you how much he's going to pay you and what are your rights. It's work, right? Just play dumb and ask.
Relationships are king. And by this I mean, the right type of relationships with the right people (for you). There used to be a saying that you could never find financing for 1 movie, but you could always find financing for 10. Because 8 movies will flop, 1 will break even and 1 might be a hit. So the point is, if you're looking for a producing partner, who might pay you down the road on a better project, you want to be able to ask him questions and who likes and respects you.
posted by phaedon at 11:32 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
My roommate was approached to DP on a project that was billed as having a $2 million budget, and then after the director of said project got my roommate to read the script and get involved in scouting and pre-production, the producer offered him $1000/wk to shoot the fucking movie, which in all seriousness is probably less than what a PA would make on the worst show ever. They of course loved his reel, but the producer, who was hard to reach, simply would not budge. This of course, opens up all kind of confusing possibilities. Like, you are either incredibly stupid, incredibly rude, or most likely, you don't have $2 million.
The fact of the matter is without some form of representation there are not going to be any clear answers as to what kind of work you can or will do. Nobody is ever going to give you this answer. And, nobody is ever going to give you anything unless you ask for it. And as far as these type of informal relationships go, I think it's important to learn how to communicate basic needs in a friendly manner. This has always worked for me. Because you are not going to get anywhere by talking any other way.
As somebody who, without representation, at one point vigorously defended "my quote," I have to say that through experience I have grown and discovered the best formula is to do a mix of well-paid and free work, when I am totally comfortable doing so. There's always going to be something creative that won't pay and is fun to do. It's fine; not every moment of your career has to be a reflection of your worth. In all seriousness, some of the charitable work I've done has made my paid work real clear; I no longer look for approval or compliments, I don't try to get blood from stones, and I don't hop on to free projects that I kind of feel weird about because of the promise or illusion of money.
If you really don't know what you're doing, and you are flirting with doing this as a career, it might be worth calling the WGA. Ask for help. You're not alone. Sometimes great things can happen as long as you're taking care of yourself and growing as a writer. If you've never done this kind of job before, this could be a good experience. Hell, ask the guy who wants to hire you how much he's going to pay you and what are your rights. It's work, right? Just play dumb and ask.
Relationships are king. And by this I mean, the right type of relationships with the right people (for you). There used to be a saying that you could never find financing for 1 movie, but you could always find financing for 10. Because 8 movies will flop, 1 will break even and 1 might be a hit. So the point is, if you're looking for a producing partner, who might pay you down the road on a better project, you want to be able to ask him questions and who likes and respects you.
posted by phaedon at 11:32 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am extremely hesitant. I studied the market for a long time, as I had dreamed of being a screenwriter. Let me explain the situation as I understand it, then other MeFi's can correct me.
The producer may have raised half the money to shoot a pilot, but that just means he has a script for a pilot, and nothing else. He may have a bunch of treatments (i.e. ideas), but if he managed to get a go ahead (i.e. he "sold the series") he won't have much time to actually writes the scripts himself. On the other hand, who says any of those treatments are any good? Is there a character bible you can refer to yet? Do you have the pilot script to study for tone and setup?
Also, as others explained, when he's "shopping the script around" (to the distributors) he will usually need to show the pilot, as well as a bunch of scripts (2-3 at least, 5-6 would be ideal) plus a dozen more treatments to flesh out a "season". And depending on how you read this... he's either offering you sweat equity (i.e. if I sell this series you're a staff writer) through implication, or he's just trolling you for free work (i.e. he can always hire someone else to rewrite your script).
As for "raised half the money", I smell Indiegogo or Kickstarter.
A legitimate series would always pay for any assignments. This one already sounds shaky, and chances are your work will never see the light of day, but I guess you'll at least get a script out of it, but it probably can't be shopped around as he'll probably make you sign a NDA while he kept shopping it around.
I'd say "not worth the trouble", but that's just me.
posted by kschang at 12:16 AM on June 27, 2015
The producer may have raised half the money to shoot a pilot, but that just means he has a script for a pilot, and nothing else. He may have a bunch of treatments (i.e. ideas), but if he managed to get a go ahead (i.e. he "sold the series") he won't have much time to actually writes the scripts himself. On the other hand, who says any of those treatments are any good? Is there a character bible you can refer to yet? Do you have the pilot script to study for tone and setup?
Also, as others explained, when he's "shopping the script around" (to the distributors) he will usually need to show the pilot, as well as a bunch of scripts (2-3 at least, 5-6 would be ideal) plus a dozen more treatments to flesh out a "season". And depending on how you read this... he's either offering you sweat equity (i.e. if I sell this series you're a staff writer) through implication, or he's just trolling you for free work (i.e. he can always hire someone else to rewrite your script).
As for "raised half the money", I smell Indiegogo or Kickstarter.
A legitimate series would always pay for any assignments. This one already sounds shaky, and chances are your work will never see the light of day, but I guess you'll at least get a script out of it, but it probably can't be shopped around as he'll probably make you sign a NDA while he kept shopping it around.
I'd say "not worth the trouble", but that's just me.
posted by kschang at 12:16 AM on June 27, 2015
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posted by Anonymous at 8:40 AM on June 26, 2015