What Happened At The Polo Grounds Shooting in 1950?
June 23, 2015 2:23 AM Subscribe
On July 4, 1950, Bernard Doyle was killed in the stands at a NY Giants game. The bullet was supposed to have been fired by Robert Mario Peebles, a 14-year-old who lived in a nearby housing project. The weapon was not aimed but fired into the sky and the bullet struck and killed Doyle. Questions remain (for me) and I hope some MeFite can hook me up to a good accounting of the event.
Questions:
Apparently the bullet that killed Doyle was .45. Peebles had (so far as I can tell) only .22 caliber weapons. He said that he had found the .45 pistol (loaded with one bullet) and threw it away after the shooting. The pistol was never found. Much ado was made during the trial about a .22 rifle, to which Peebles had access, though he had confessed to firing a handgun. There is a great deal of discrepancy between reports here. Initially police said the wound was caused by a "high-caliber".22, before they switched to .45. What evidence is there for either caliber?
This case actually made Snopes' forum as an example of a falling bullet killing someone. From Peebles' rooftop to Doyle's seat is a distance of 1123 feet (not confirmed by me). Possible? For a .22? A .45? (I have no info on the kind of bullets -- .22 Long Rifle vs. other .22 types, for instance.) Doyle was seated at Seat 3, Row C, Section 42. There are photos of the Polo Grounds from Peebles' rooftop, but I don't know where the seat was.
Much of the writing about the case seems racist. This was, of course, par for the day in the mainstream (White) press; are there Black press accounts that offer a different story?
What happened to Peebles later? (He was discharged from juvie after about two years.)
There is a suspicion that Peebles made a false confession to protect other family members from police involvement. Credible?
Once again, I am looking for a (or several) reliable source(s) on this topic, not so much speculation.
Questions:
Apparently the bullet that killed Doyle was .45. Peebles had (so far as I can tell) only .22 caliber weapons. He said that he had found the .45 pistol (loaded with one bullet) and threw it away after the shooting. The pistol was never found. Much ado was made during the trial about a .22 rifle, to which Peebles had access, though he had confessed to firing a handgun. There is a great deal of discrepancy between reports here. Initially police said the wound was caused by a "high-caliber".22, before they switched to .45. What evidence is there for either caliber?
This case actually made Snopes' forum as an example of a falling bullet killing someone. From Peebles' rooftop to Doyle's seat is a distance of 1123 feet (not confirmed by me). Possible? For a .22? A .45? (I have no info on the kind of bullets -- .22 Long Rifle vs. other .22 types, for instance.) Doyle was seated at Seat 3, Row C, Section 42. There are photos of the Polo Grounds from Peebles' rooftop, but I don't know where the seat was.
Much of the writing about the case seems racist. This was, of course, par for the day in the mainstream (White) press; are there Black press accounts that offer a different story?
What happened to Peebles later? (He was discharged from juvie after about two years.)
There is a suspicion that Peebles made a false confession to protect other family members from police involvement. Credible?
Once again, I am looking for a (or several) reliable source(s) on this topic, not so much speculation.
It is certainly possible. Though the bullet would not have had the same force as one fired directly at a target, a piece of metal falling out of the sky at 300 ft/sec (200 mph) would certainly make a significant, possibly fatal, dent in skin and bone when it landed. This page gives more information.
posted by ubiquity at 7:51 AM on June 23, 2015
posted by ubiquity at 7:51 AM on June 23, 2015
The internet seems firm on the range being well within possible territory for .22 (long and short)
http://www2.huntercourse.com/saskatchewan/study?chapter=2&page=8
The .45 seems much more tangled... firing 'flat', basically a standing man at a target in front of himself, no. A raised elevation on the barrel (45 degrees is optimal for pure distance) adds a lot of distance. The height of the building would also factor in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire#United_States
Lists several deaths of this type. It does not mention the Polo grounds death (Different issue) but I think enough evidence exists that I would call it extremely likely that a .45 fired at or towards the stadium or just into the air at the wrong angle could have killed Doyle.
A .22 (short or long) could have been more or less aimed at the stadium and stood a very good chance of hitting a person.
posted by Jacen at 7:54 AM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
http://www2.huntercourse.com/saskatchewan/study?chapter=2&page=8
The .45 seems much more tangled... firing 'flat', basically a standing man at a target in front of himself, no. A raised elevation on the barrel (45 degrees is optimal for pure distance) adds a lot of distance. The height of the building would also factor in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire#United_States
Lists several deaths of this type. It does not mention the Polo grounds death (Different issue) but I think enough evidence exists that I would call it extremely likely that a .45 fired at or towards the stadium or just into the air at the wrong angle could have killed Doyle.
A .22 (short or long) could have been more or less aimed at the stadium and stood a very good chance of hitting a person.
posted by Jacen at 7:54 AM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
This (disjointed, looks like it was OCR'd poorly) Daily News article says Boyle was in the grandstand between left and center fields and that Peebles was on the roof of 515 Edgecombe Ave. The stadium famously sat beneath an escarpment, Coogan's Bluff, and 515 Edgecombe is a six-story building at 157th St. There is a photo of the Polo Grounds on this page, with 515 Edgecombe being the big trapezoidal building toward the bottom center of the photo nearest home plate. It is a straight shot down from the top of that building to the grandstand where Boyle was sitting. If Boyle were sitting in the grandstand facing the field he would have also been facing west toward Peebles and the News article says he was shot in the forehead.
posted by plastic_animals at 9:03 AM on June 23, 2015
posted by plastic_animals at 9:03 AM on June 23, 2015
You can calculate the trajectory of a bullet of most any type using a ballistic calculator. Google for free online calculators and/or fee apps.
Mythbusters did a segment on bullets fired into the air. Their result was that a bullet fired straight up would tumble on its way down and be not totally dangerous, but that a bullet fired at anything more than a small angle from vertical angle would remain lethal.
A couple years ago, I saw a video on the web by a guy who shot a frozen chicken at about the ranges cited to see if the bullet would penetrate. It did.
posted by SemiSalt at 9:50 AM on June 23, 2015
Mythbusters did a segment on bullets fired into the air. Their result was that a bullet fired straight up would tumble on its way down and be not totally dangerous, but that a bullet fired at anything more than a small angle from vertical angle would remain lethal.
A couple years ago, I saw a video on the web by a guy who shot a frozen chicken at about the ranges cited to see if the bullet would penetrate. It did.
posted by SemiSalt at 9:50 AM on June 23, 2015
I found a video which, if not the one I mentioned, is pretty equivalent. Search YouTube for
.22LR LETHALITY - 300 Yard Ballistics Test
posted by SemiSalt at 10:24 AM on June 23, 2015
.22LR LETHALITY - 300 Yard Ballistics Test
posted by SemiSalt at 10:24 AM on June 23, 2015
I read this one time:
It's not impossible that it could kill but it's unlikely. (But it has happened.)
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 12:36 PM on June 23, 2015
Gen. Julian S. Hatcher supervised experiments to determine whether a bullet returning by gravity from rifle fired vertically represented a danger.A .45 ACP ball ranges from 185 grains to 230 grains depending on the type, which would mean 40-50 foot pounds of energy.
Hatcher's Notebook, Chapter XX, "Bullets from the Sky," summarizes the relevant research and reports upon his studies, saying:
"One of the shots that hit the platform was a Service .30-'06, 150 grain flat based bullet, which came down base first (as that bullet usually does) and bounced into the water after striking the edge of the lower platform. It left a mark about 1/16 inch deep in the soft pine board."
"It was concluded from these tests that the return velocity was about 300 feet per second. With the 150 grain bullet, this corresponds to an energy of 30 foot pounds. Previously the Army had decided that on the average, an energy of 60 foot pounds is required to produce a disabling wound. Thus Service bullets returning from extreme heights cannot be considered lethal by this standard."
"Most .30 caliber bullets seem to attain about this same final velocity and it doesn't make any difference how far they fall. Even if a bullet were fired downward from a very high plane, it would still reach the ground at about the same velocity. That is because the air resistance increases very rapidly indeed with increases in speed."
"For larger calibers, the terminal velocity of fall is higher, as the weight is greater in relation to the diameter. An ordinary .50 caliber machine gun bullet having a weight of 718 grains would have a terminal velocity of fall of nearly 500 feet per second and a final energy of something less than 400 foot pounds. A 12-inch shell weighing 1000 pounds and fired straight up would return with a speed of between 1300 and 1400 feet per second and over 28,000,000 ft. lbs. of striking energy."
It's not impossible that it could kill but it's unlikely. (But it has happened.)
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 12:36 PM on June 23, 2015
Response by poster: Thanks everyone so far. There are seating charts for the Polo Grounds that show the section where Doyle was sitting and it is visible from Peebles' roof. But all this still doesn't answer the basic questions: what kind of weapon did kill Doyle? I would think the difference between a .22 wound and one from a .45 would be noticeable and the police at the scene said .22. So why the switch to a .45? What I would like here is a thorough account of the evidence. I sort of expected that at least one decent article or book had been written about the case, but it seems not.
One thing I did not mention above: the Peebles trial involved Dr. Frederic Wertham (and, if that name means nothing to you, just ignore this). Peebles was apparently seen at Wertham's Lafargue Clinic. Wertham claimed that a stock of weapons and ammo for a Luger were found on the rooftop. No other account backs up this statement, so I think Wertham was inflating the story for his own purposes.
posted by CCBC at 3:32 PM on June 23, 2015
One thing I did not mention above: the Peebles trial involved Dr. Frederic Wertham (and, if that name means nothing to you, just ignore this). Peebles was apparently seen at Wertham's Lafargue Clinic. Wertham claimed that a stock of weapons and ammo for a Luger were found on the rooftop. No other account backs up this statement, so I think Wertham was inflating the story for his own purposes.
posted by CCBC at 3:32 PM on June 23, 2015
Have you looked at the New York Amsterdam News? It's the main African American NYC paper, I think. I know some of it can be searched online through the New York Public Library. I'm sure there are other ways to access it through university libraries.
posted by mareli at 3:36 PM on June 24, 2015
posted by mareli at 3:36 PM on June 24, 2015
Response by poster: Thanks, mareli, but I have no university-supplied barcode that will get me in. There are hints, in some of the African-American sources that I can access, that Peebles was set up to protect an adult. There are two possibilities that stand out.
posted by CCBC at 1:44 AM on June 25, 2015
posted by CCBC at 1:44 AM on June 25, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
The Social Security Death Index lists one Robert Peebles the right age, with the middle name Meier; that person lived in Texas. There is another Robert M. Peebles in Summerville, South Carolina, but he's a couple of years older. Here is his wife's very recent obituary.
posted by mareli at 5:53 AM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]