The art of not being taken advantage of?
June 21, 2015 5:25 PM Subscribe
I am the "nice guy": agreeable, non-confrontational, always trying to please everyone and deep down just wanting everyone to like me.
I can't live like that anymore. How do I put my own needs/wants ahead of others?
I am not looking to be an 'asshole' or a 'mean guy'. I want to be confidently assertive and project an image that says 'Don't try to fuck with me'. (And I mean that in a non-physical way, nobody is beating me up here)
Somewhere along the lines of growing up I took to heart the 'golden rule' and truly try to treat everyone how I would want to be treated. In general I go out of my way to be a nice and pleasant person to everyone who knows me. I often go out of my way to help people I see/deal with regularly even when I don't really want to. Never am I ever expecting anything in return for my niceness or my help other then thinking that these same people will treat me with the kindness and respect I have shown them. Bad news... I now understand that is not how the world works. In the past 6 months I have been badly taken advantage by several different people. Friends, girlfriends, acquaintances, and family members.
I could give examples of dozens of situations but in the most general sense people don't comply when I ask for something and behave negatively towards me because they expect I will "be okay with it" or at the very least not speak up about it.
My last straw came recently when a departing roommate tried to screw me out of several thousand dollars and furniture that was purchased by me. I ended up exploding with anger on this guy and safe to say we are no longer friends but I got my money and furniture. Can't help but wonder if there could have been a more healthy way to solve this or what would have happened had I not been so accommodating to this guys every want/need when the friendship/roommate relationship first started?
I fully understand that the relationships I've already formed are in a way tainted and may not ever be 100% fixed because I have shown myself to be submissive/passive/a push over... but I need to know how to break this cycle for new people I meet.
*** I should note that I am only like this with people I 'know'. I do not let strangers take advantage of me for the most part. Girlfriends and friends are often surprised if I quickly and harshly speak up to a waiter or cab driver for example. Personally I often feel guilty about this but I see it was a way of taking out built up aggression that should go towards the friends/girlfirends/family etc who I don't stand up to.
I am not looking to be an 'asshole' or a 'mean guy'. I want to be confidently assertive and project an image that says 'Don't try to fuck with me'. (And I mean that in a non-physical way, nobody is beating me up here)
Somewhere along the lines of growing up I took to heart the 'golden rule' and truly try to treat everyone how I would want to be treated. In general I go out of my way to be a nice and pleasant person to everyone who knows me. I often go out of my way to help people I see/deal with regularly even when I don't really want to. Never am I ever expecting anything in return for my niceness or my help other then thinking that these same people will treat me with the kindness and respect I have shown them. Bad news... I now understand that is not how the world works. In the past 6 months I have been badly taken advantage by several different people. Friends, girlfriends, acquaintances, and family members.
I could give examples of dozens of situations but in the most general sense people don't comply when I ask for something and behave negatively towards me because they expect I will "be okay with it" or at the very least not speak up about it.
My last straw came recently when a departing roommate tried to screw me out of several thousand dollars and furniture that was purchased by me. I ended up exploding with anger on this guy and safe to say we are no longer friends but I got my money and furniture. Can't help but wonder if there could have been a more healthy way to solve this or what would have happened had I not been so accommodating to this guys every want/need when the friendship/roommate relationship first started?
I fully understand that the relationships I've already formed are in a way tainted and may not ever be 100% fixed because I have shown myself to be submissive/passive/a push over... but I need to know how to break this cycle for new people I meet.
*** I should note that I am only like this with people I 'know'. I do not let strangers take advantage of me for the most part. Girlfriends and friends are often surprised if I quickly and harshly speak up to a waiter or cab driver for example. Personally I often feel guilty about this but I see it was a way of taking out built up aggression that should go towards the friends/girlfirends/family etc who I don't stand up to.
I'm going to step in and say you need to learn some manners. With people. Not just women and such, but everyone.
Go back to nicety nice rules 101: Treat people as if you would want to be treated. Say please and thank you.
It's okay to get angry when you are treated poorly. How you deal with that is an aspect of maturity, it sucks, you get angry, and then you go, huh, I really can't tell them to pound sand, I have to actually talk to them and communicate. And work it out.
You're smart enough to ask this question. You're smart enough to calm down and work it out.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 5:46 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Go back to nicety nice rules 101: Treat people as if you would want to be treated. Say please and thank you.
It's okay to get angry when you are treated poorly. How you deal with that is an aspect of maturity, it sucks, you get angry, and then you go, huh, I really can't tell them to pound sand, I have to actually talk to them and communicate. And work it out.
You're smart enough to ask this question. You're smart enough to calm down and work it out.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 5:46 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
You know how to stand up for yourself already. So do it. Doesn't require your being a dick. You also clearly know how to be nice about things, you just have to find the right balance when standing up for yourself. So, practice.
Start with not letting the small things slide. Small things lead to bigger things. If you are thinking to yourself "I'm being taken advantage of" over something small, like picking up the cheque, giving someone a ride yet again, saddling you with something you don't want to do, or taking your things, speak up or do something right away, or even pre-emptively. Say no. Suggest something more equal-footed. Call them on taking advantage of you if it's a repeat offence. Shirk the request onto someone else (by suggesting they ask another particular person). Be unavailable. Don't give money as a principle. Don't loan things that are important to you as a principle. Don't volunteer yourself.
posted by lizbunny at 6:08 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
Start with not letting the small things slide. Small things lead to bigger things. If you are thinking to yourself "I'm being taken advantage of" over something small, like picking up the cheque, giving someone a ride yet again, saddling you with something you don't want to do, or taking your things, speak up or do something right away, or even pre-emptively. Say no. Suggest something more equal-footed. Call them on taking advantage of you if it's a repeat offence. Shirk the request onto someone else (by suggesting they ask another particular person). Be unavailable. Don't give money as a principle. Don't loan things that are important to you as a principle. Don't volunteer yourself.
posted by lizbunny at 6:08 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's not at all unusual for people to be pushovers with others in their lives, then discharge their frustration on relative strangers who disappoint you. What *is* unusual is that, rather than rationalize your pattern of behavior, you not only recognize it but want to change it. That's the good news.
As you already suspect, the people in your life who have become accustomed to your being overly generous will not want to see you establish a more level playing field. They may even up the ante when you don't capitulate right away. And when they up the ante, you'll be ever so tempted to give in, "just this once". Over time, if you continue to resist, the people who really love you will adjust to the new you. The others will either storm away or drift away, muttering about how you're no longer the nice person they thought you were. Good riddance to them. They were only fair-weather friends, and you don't need them.
Whatever strategies you try for setting more equitable terms with people you meet, you'll know you're doing it right and are making progress if you feel pretty uncomfortable. Over time, you'll feel more at ease.
IME, it'll be really helpful to have someone who can coach you through this, at least until you are well on your way. A therapist would be the obvious choice, but it could be someone who you think is pretty good at what you want to learn.
posted by DrGail at 6:38 PM on June 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
As you already suspect, the people in your life who have become accustomed to your being overly generous will not want to see you establish a more level playing field. They may even up the ante when you don't capitulate right away. And when they up the ante, you'll be ever so tempted to give in, "just this once". Over time, if you continue to resist, the people who really love you will adjust to the new you. The others will either storm away or drift away, muttering about how you're no longer the nice person they thought you were. Good riddance to them. They were only fair-weather friends, and you don't need them.
Whatever strategies you try for setting more equitable terms with people you meet, you'll know you're doing it right and are making progress if you feel pretty uncomfortable. Over time, you'll feel more at ease.
IME, it'll be really helpful to have someone who can coach you through this, at least until you are well on your way. A therapist would be the obvious choice, but it could be someone who you think is pretty good at what you want to learn.
posted by DrGail at 6:38 PM on June 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
You need to learn to give your needs and preferences as much regard as those of other people. You can try to work out a priority scale. So like if you're trying to decide where to go for dinner and you don't actually care that much (4) then whatever let the other person choose. If you actually really want to go somewhere specific (7) or whatever the example may be, then you learn to say things like:
* That isn't going to work for me
* I would prefer X
* I need you to Y
* Sorry, Z won't be possible
Etc.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:45 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
* That isn't going to work for me
* I would prefer X
* I need you to Y
* Sorry, Z won't be possible
Etc.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:45 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
Personally I often feel guilty about this but I see it was a way of taking out built up aggression that should go towards the friends/girlfirends/family etc who I don't stand up to.
I was with you right up until this part, and then I go back to the "people don't comply," and now it sounds creepy, immature and entitled. If you're really, deliberately rationalizing how you best to "take it out" on people, you have bigger problems than just being heard.
There are many, many resources available about how to have healthy confrontations with people, how to speak your mind, etc. But you need to calm the heck down and do some more self-examination first.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:56 PM on June 21, 2015 [14 favorites]
I was with you right up until this part, and then I go back to the "people don't comply," and now it sounds creepy, immature and entitled. If you're really, deliberately rationalizing how you best to "take it out" on people, you have bigger problems than just being heard.
There are many, many resources available about how to have healthy confrontations with people, how to speak your mind, etc. But you need to calm the heck down and do some more self-examination first.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:56 PM on June 21, 2015 [14 favorites]
I think you need to blame yourself. Being nice and wanting to be liked and giving others no sense of what you want until you blow up at them is not okay. You can't just go along with something and communicate that x is fine with you then be mad about it later because people should read your mind and because they can't you feel taken advantage of. The blame is on you for not communicating like an adult should.
You need to figure yourself out and not just be crazy and aggressive. Figure out what who you are. You can do it through therapy.
posted by discopolo at 7:06 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
You need to figure yourself out and not just be crazy and aggressive. Figure out what who you are. You can do it through therapy.
posted by discopolo at 7:06 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Simply Nthing the notion that you should find a therapist to 'coach' you in this endeavor. It sounds to me like you simply want to learn how to determine appropriate boundaries in your relationships, and how to appropriately enforce those boundaries. It's very difficult to do this alone. But the good news is that with appropriate assistance, you can definitely pull this off.
posted by doctor tough love at 7:55 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by doctor tough love at 7:55 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
Ha! Ha! I'm always annoyed when "people don't comply." I mean, really! How dare they ;))
Look, I feel you.
First of all, try not to be shitty to strangers. Second, do NOT reward bad behavior in others you know personally unless under very very select circumstances. You can always say politely "No Thank You" to ANYTHING you do not wish to go along with. Don't make excuses, just, "That doesn't work for me." Apply as needed.
Here's a little something to remember as you master this skill it will take you a lifetime to master...
When you allow others to treat you like shit, you are not helping them, you are helping them do Bad Things.
Do you want to be a party to someone else's bad karma? Of course you don't! So work on developing firm and polite boundaries in therapy, and Practice, Practice, Practice.
Let me tell you a quick and dirty example of a recent time I did not set boundaries - join me?
My preschooler has a group of best friends, and one set of parents are frenemy nightmares. Boundary pushing, underhanded, possibly insecure or jealous? I don't really care what motivates them. For a year and half I gritted my teeth and smiled at every backhanded insult or tried to answer genuinely every boundary pushing interrogation. Big (almost unavoidable!!) Mistake.
Because I did not want to shut them down and shut them out when we first became friendly (to this day, I refuse for any of our children to witness anything other than kindness and smiles from me) I've instead altered my school schedule such that I get to entirely avoid these people. Our children are still great friends that spend the majority of their time in school enjoying each other's company. I made the best of a bad situation. Maybe if I had established right at the first sign of trouble that we were not socially avaible, some of this could have played out differently. But it snuck up on me despite my skills in this area because I was a new parent when it started, and I felt stuck. Ugh.
I never gave them the smack down they seemed to be angling for with their crappy behavior towards me, and I'm PROUD of that. I heard recently through the grapevine bad things have happened to them related to their behavior. I'm not sure how surprising this news is to others, but to me? Not so much.
At least I wasn't a party to it. Every action attracts a reaction. I declined, someone else fulfilled the request these folks were putting out there.
Point being - being a Nice Person requires DISCERNMENT.
Discernment and wisdom are two things you develop with life experience.
The last ingredient is Self Knowledge/Self Control. These go hand-in-hand. I think the colloquialism for this concept is "Being The Bigger Person."
These are not easy things to master, rather, it's a lifelong pursuit. New circumstances cause missteps. You'll make mistakes.
It is still infinitely worth learning proper boundaries and how to implement them. Go forth. Have good intentions and work hard at this endeavor. Thanks in advance for working on being a better human.
posted by jbenben at 8:24 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Look, I feel you.
First of all, try not to be shitty to strangers. Second, do NOT reward bad behavior in others you know personally unless under very very select circumstances. You can always say politely "No Thank You" to ANYTHING you do not wish to go along with. Don't make excuses, just, "That doesn't work for me." Apply as needed.
Here's a little something to remember as you master this skill it will take you a lifetime to master...
When you allow others to treat you like shit, you are not helping them, you are helping them do Bad Things.
Do you want to be a party to someone else's bad karma? Of course you don't! So work on developing firm and polite boundaries in therapy, and Practice, Practice, Practice.
Let me tell you a quick and dirty example of a recent time I did not set boundaries - join me?
My preschooler has a group of best friends, and one set of parents are frenemy nightmares. Boundary pushing, underhanded, possibly insecure or jealous? I don't really care what motivates them. For a year and half I gritted my teeth and smiled at every backhanded insult or tried to answer genuinely every boundary pushing interrogation. Big (almost unavoidable!!) Mistake.
Because I did not want to shut them down and shut them out when we first became friendly (to this day, I refuse for any of our children to witness anything other than kindness and smiles from me) I've instead altered my school schedule such that I get to entirely avoid these people. Our children are still great friends that spend the majority of their time in school enjoying each other's company. I made the best of a bad situation. Maybe if I had established right at the first sign of trouble that we were not socially avaible, some of this could have played out differently. But it snuck up on me despite my skills in this area because I was a new parent when it started, and I felt stuck. Ugh.
I never gave them the smack down they seemed to be angling for with their crappy behavior towards me, and I'm PROUD of that. I heard recently through the grapevine bad things have happened to them related to their behavior. I'm not sure how surprising this news is to others, but to me? Not so much.
At least I wasn't a party to it. Every action attracts a reaction. I declined, someone else fulfilled the request these folks were putting out there.
Point being - being a Nice Person requires DISCERNMENT.
Discernment and wisdom are two things you develop with life experience.
The last ingredient is Self Knowledge/Self Control. These go hand-in-hand. I think the colloquialism for this concept is "Being The Bigger Person."
These are not easy things to master, rather, it's a lifelong pursuit. New circumstances cause missteps. You'll make mistakes.
It is still infinitely worth learning proper boundaries and how to implement them. Go forth. Have good intentions and work hard at this endeavor. Thanks in advance for working on being a better human.
posted by jbenben at 8:24 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
How do I put my own needs/wants ahead of others?
Try anything that allows you to spend more time in your body. Practice mindfulness, meditation, yoga, and if possible, sensation tracking (a.k.a. somatic experiencing, except you don't necessarily need a therapist for using sensations to improve your sense of mindfulness, because Levine & Kline break the approach down into a simple exercise that can be done with a trusted partner). Practice being aware of what your body feels like when it knows when you're offering something to someone that's going to result in a net cost to yourself (i.e. they're not going to comply with the nice behavioral dialogue you're trying to engage in).
My theory for you is that you're not attuned to your own signals of when you're giving more than you can reasonably expect to get back. It can feel like a twinge in the gut, a flutter in the back of your mind, whatever. The point is, most people do have some kind of internal sensory system for registering this stuff. The better you can get at noticing when your "nice-dar"(?) has been tripped (i.e. you're going into the nice guy role in spite of being aware that it's not going to benefit you), the better able you will be to consciously take the lead and change this recurring script in your life.
When you get to the point of consciously recognizing when you can change the script, then it's just a matter of practicing how to speak assertively to people when you would otherwise offer help to no end. Assertive communication is something you can google, practice with a buddy, or learn from a therapist. I predict that if you can get better at these two skills (body awareness + assertive communication), you'll find yourself letting it out on service people less often (which I agree with the previous poster who said this is a pretty common behavior in people, and kudos to you for recognizing it and figuring out how you can change it).
My extra two cents: I think it's fair to say many men are socialized to be "nice" (and do practice being nice out of a desire to feel differentiated from the stereotypical "not so nice" misogynistic-types), but in the same breath, are not given the tools to get their needs met in the absence of those "not so nice" strategies seen in other men/people. If you want a copy of that exercise (copied out straight from that book), feel free to message me. Good luck!
posted by human ecologist at 8:51 PM on June 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
Try anything that allows you to spend more time in your body. Practice mindfulness, meditation, yoga, and if possible, sensation tracking (a.k.a. somatic experiencing, except you don't necessarily need a therapist for using sensations to improve your sense of mindfulness, because Levine & Kline break the approach down into a simple exercise that can be done with a trusted partner). Practice being aware of what your body feels like when it knows when you're offering something to someone that's going to result in a net cost to yourself (i.e. they're not going to comply with the nice behavioral dialogue you're trying to engage in).
My theory for you is that you're not attuned to your own signals of when you're giving more than you can reasonably expect to get back. It can feel like a twinge in the gut, a flutter in the back of your mind, whatever. The point is, most people do have some kind of internal sensory system for registering this stuff. The better you can get at noticing when your "nice-dar"(?) has been tripped (i.e. you're going into the nice guy role in spite of being aware that it's not going to benefit you), the better able you will be to consciously take the lead and change this recurring script in your life.
When you get to the point of consciously recognizing when you can change the script, then it's just a matter of practicing how to speak assertively to people when you would otherwise offer help to no end. Assertive communication is something you can google, practice with a buddy, or learn from a therapist. I predict that if you can get better at these two skills (body awareness + assertive communication), you'll find yourself letting it out on service people less often (which I agree with the previous poster who said this is a pretty common behavior in people, and kudos to you for recognizing it and figuring out how you can change it).
My extra two cents: I think it's fair to say many men are socialized to be "nice" (and do practice being nice out of a desire to feel differentiated from the stereotypical "not so nice" misogynistic-types), but in the same breath, are not given the tools to get their needs met in the absence of those "not so nice" strategies seen in other men/people. If you want a copy of that exercise (copied out straight from that book), feel free to message me. Good luck!
posted by human ecologist at 8:51 PM on June 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
You're not really being nice by always giving people what they want. They will assume that you are doing these things because you want them too. Then when you finally explode they will quite rightly say "But I thought it was a present" or "I thought he enjoyed doing that for me" and feel guilty for taking advantage. Instead of saying yes all the time, how about saying "I don't fancy that but how about X instead?" or "I don't have time but I know someone who loves to help with that kind of thing?" That way you are compromising without putting yourself out and hopefully everyone will be happy - and most importantly you are being honest.
posted by intensitymultiply at 9:12 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by intensitymultiply at 9:12 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
Never am I ever expecting anything in return for my niceness or my help other then thinking that these same people will treat me with the kindness and respect I have shown them.
That is an expectation though, and they may be just living their lives in their way which may not include looking for people to help, or may not include the same definitions. I am not saying it's okay to screw you over, but this expectation you have is not reasonable exactly. Basically you do want people to have a particular reaction to things you do...but you have not asked them first.
It might help you to get away from the word nice. Kindness is a virtue, but niceness is really not.
This is a pretty harsh essay on nice guys. Take it with a grain of salt, I am not judging your dating style, but there are some paragraphs in there you might find relevant.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:17 PM on June 21, 2015 [13 favorites]
That is an expectation though, and they may be just living their lives in their way which may not include looking for people to help, or may not include the same definitions. I am not saying it's okay to screw you over, but this expectation you have is not reasonable exactly. Basically you do want people to have a particular reaction to things you do...but you have not asked them first.
It might help you to get away from the word nice. Kindness is a virtue, but niceness is really not.
This is a pretty harsh essay on nice guys. Take it with a grain of salt, I am not judging your dating style, but there are some paragraphs in there you might find relevant.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:17 PM on June 21, 2015 [13 favorites]
Nthing....women don't want Nice Guys, we want SECURE guys.
posted by brujita at 10:04 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by brujita at 10:04 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Hello! I'm a recovering nice person. You appear to be suffering from some nice person delusions.
One is the delusion that you can stockpile "nice credits." If you give someone a ride home in the rain 8 times, this does not mean that on the 9th time they will give you a ride. You'd think they would -- after all, don't you have 8 nice credits banked? No! What you've actually done is teach them, eight times, that you will do things for them. They have zero experiences of doing things for you. You teach people how to treat you, so ask them to do something for you right away -- bizarrely, people tend to like treat you better after they've done something for you, not the other way around.
Another is the delusion that speaking harshly to the waiter is the opposite of being a doormat. No! They're essentially the same thing: fear of conflict. A lot of nice people don't give themselves permission to speak up unless the offense is big and bad. So they magnify small offenses and over-react, because that's the only way they know how to stand up for themselves.
You called this post "the art of not being taken advantage of," and it really is an art. You have to practice so you know how to hit that middle ground. You might say to the waiter, "I wanted medium-well, damn it, are you stupid?" But, "Would you cook this burger a bit more?" gets you the same result. If you didn't see healthy assertiveness modeled at home, though, the only things you know how to do are the extremes, mean and doormat.
I'm not saying I'm anywhere close to recovered yet, but I have 2 techniques that I call "the stairstep of response" and "be a bike lock." The first one means that you just give the minimum assertive response needed to get what you want. If it doesn't work, go up a level. You almost never have to go all the way up to meanness.
Being a bike lock means that you protect yourself against self-centered jerks. When humans meet and sniff each others butts, one of the things jerks are looking for is somebody they can walk all over.
However, you don't actually need to project a complete tough guy image of "don't fuck with me." A bike lock doesn't need to protect 100% protection for your bike. Locks are flimsy -- the real thing they do is make it inconvenient enough to steal your bike that the thief decides to steal the next guy's bike instead.
When you feel somebody testing you -- and I get the sense from your post you know when someone's testing you -- just give them a long puzzled stare, like you're wondering what is wrong with them. This is a surprisingly effective way to indicate that messing with you is going to be inconvenient, and they move on. You'll develop other techniques with practice, but if you're ever stumped in the moment, you can't go wrong with the puzzled stare.
posted by selfmedicating at 10:30 PM on June 21, 2015 [57 favorites]
One is the delusion that you can stockpile "nice credits." If you give someone a ride home in the rain 8 times, this does not mean that on the 9th time they will give you a ride. You'd think they would -- after all, don't you have 8 nice credits banked? No! What you've actually done is teach them, eight times, that you will do things for them. They have zero experiences of doing things for you. You teach people how to treat you, so ask them to do something for you right away -- bizarrely, people tend to like treat you better after they've done something for you, not the other way around.
Another is the delusion that speaking harshly to the waiter is the opposite of being a doormat. No! They're essentially the same thing: fear of conflict. A lot of nice people don't give themselves permission to speak up unless the offense is big and bad. So they magnify small offenses and over-react, because that's the only way they know how to stand up for themselves.
You called this post "the art of not being taken advantage of," and it really is an art. You have to practice so you know how to hit that middle ground. You might say to the waiter, "I wanted medium-well, damn it, are you stupid?" But, "Would you cook this burger a bit more?" gets you the same result. If you didn't see healthy assertiveness modeled at home, though, the only things you know how to do are the extremes, mean and doormat.
I'm not saying I'm anywhere close to recovered yet, but I have 2 techniques that I call "the stairstep of response" and "be a bike lock." The first one means that you just give the minimum assertive response needed to get what you want. If it doesn't work, go up a level. You almost never have to go all the way up to meanness.
Being a bike lock means that you protect yourself against self-centered jerks. When humans meet and sniff each others butts, one of the things jerks are looking for is somebody they can walk all over.
However, you don't actually need to project a complete tough guy image of "don't fuck with me." A bike lock doesn't need to protect 100% protection for your bike. Locks are flimsy -- the real thing they do is make it inconvenient enough to steal your bike that the thief decides to steal the next guy's bike instead.
When you feel somebody testing you -- and I get the sense from your post you know when someone's testing you -- just give them a long puzzled stare, like you're wondering what is wrong with them. This is a surprisingly effective way to indicate that messing with you is going to be inconvenient, and they move on. You'll develop other techniques with practice, but if you're ever stumped in the moment, you can't go wrong with the puzzled stare.
posted by selfmedicating at 10:30 PM on June 21, 2015 [57 favorites]
I'm not sure what the connection is between the golden rule and being taken advantage of in the sense of being swindled out of money or treated badly. You can be kind and helpful to others, within the limits possible to you, without allowing them to mistreat you -- it's not kindness to allow someone to steal from you and it's not the golden rule since (I assume) you don't expect to be allowed to steal from others. I think this binary opposition you have set up, between being nice/kind/dumb and nasty/selfish/smart is a mistake. You can be smart and kind and assertive. You don't have to abandon moral concern for others in order to avoid being taken advantage of.
That said, I think there is a contradiction being smart and assertive and being "nice" in a particular sense that has zero to do with the golden rule or kindness or moral concern for others. The goal of being kind is to actually treat the other person as well as you can. That requires being smart about your own needs, capacities and rights, and what the other person needs and wants and is entitled to, and being assertive about the decisions you make in the light of that information. On the other hand, the goal of being nice is to be loved or liked or admired (or, at minimum, not rejected). So it implies doing whatever you think the other person's condition for liking you is, which may be stupid or unfair to you or not actually beneficial to them - the calculation you're making is not "how can I best improve this person's life?", it's "what does this person want (in order not to leave me)". This is the kind of niceness that produces suppressed rage, because you know you have rights and needs and limited capacities and are ignoring them in favour of your own idea of what the other person wants. It's also deeply selective, ie extends its concern only to those people whose approval you want and allows for rudeness and unpleasantness towards people whose opinion doesn't matter to you (waiters, cab drivers etc).
So I think you could calibrate your goals here a little bit. The underlying issue seems to me to be the insecurity and need to avoid the anger / dislike of others that drives your niceness. If you work on that in therapy, and get to the point where you feel comfortable being yourself because you don't need to earn love or respect by frantic accommodation to other people's whims, you can be as kind as you want to be without it leading to these situations. You might still find it demanding and tiring to treat people well all the time, but the kind of anger that comes from ignoring yourself and just doing what they want won't be a problem and you won't be more at risk of being taken advantage of than anyone else.
posted by Aravis76 at 11:16 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
That said, I think there is a contradiction being smart and assertive and being "nice" in a particular sense that has zero to do with the golden rule or kindness or moral concern for others. The goal of being kind is to actually treat the other person as well as you can. That requires being smart about your own needs, capacities and rights, and what the other person needs and wants and is entitled to, and being assertive about the decisions you make in the light of that information. On the other hand, the goal of being nice is to be loved or liked or admired (or, at minimum, not rejected). So it implies doing whatever you think the other person's condition for liking you is, which may be stupid or unfair to you or not actually beneficial to them - the calculation you're making is not "how can I best improve this person's life?", it's "what does this person want (in order not to leave me)". This is the kind of niceness that produces suppressed rage, because you know you have rights and needs and limited capacities and are ignoring them in favour of your own idea of what the other person wants. It's also deeply selective, ie extends its concern only to those people whose approval you want and allows for rudeness and unpleasantness towards people whose opinion doesn't matter to you (waiters, cab drivers etc).
So I think you could calibrate your goals here a little bit. The underlying issue seems to me to be the insecurity and need to avoid the anger / dislike of others that drives your niceness. If you work on that in therapy, and get to the point where you feel comfortable being yourself because you don't need to earn love or respect by frantic accommodation to other people's whims, you can be as kind as you want to be without it leading to these situations. You might still find it demanding and tiring to treat people well all the time, but the kind of anger that comes from ignoring yourself and just doing what they want won't be a problem and you won't be more at risk of being taken advantage of than anyone else.
posted by Aravis76 at 11:16 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
Here's the thing. You are confusing having good boundaries with being unkind. I understand. I am often an overly nice person and I have a long history of poor boundaries in my life. But I have learned a great deal about boundaries in the past few years, and I have to admit that I was partially concerned that I would become mean when I mastered boundary setting and maintenance with others. Not so. If you have good boundaries, you will not foster relationships with people who don't have good boundaries. It's sort of a self-selecting thing. And it is entirely separate from kindness. You can assert a good boundary in a respectful and straightforward and warm way. The problem isn't being too nice to people, it is having poor boundaries with them.
So given that, I have two pieces of advice:
1. I find life is way nicer when I am kind to people, especially those who serve me in some capacity - waiters, customer service reps, janitors. Unfortunately a lot of people are not kind towards service people. The smiles I always get in return (you really can hear a customer service rep smile over the phone when you're kind - which is kind of sad, actually) are so worth it. Nice begets nice. Being kind to others fosters kind relationships with people that you are close with as well.
2. When I needed to learn how to assert boundaries I started by just saying no to everything. I quickly learned what things I really wanted to do and what stuff I was doing out of meaningless obligation due to both a poor understanding of boundaries on my part and the propensity for toxic people to take advantage of that fact. This helped me learn that, for example, while I love to bake for monthly get-together with friends, sometimes I don't feel like it. So I don't. And my friends are nice and kind to me and always are appreciative when I bake but just as happy to see me when I don't. People with good boundaries generally keep company with those who have good boundaries as well.
Best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 11:19 PM on June 21, 2015 [19 favorites]
So given that, I have two pieces of advice:
1. I find life is way nicer when I am kind to people, especially those who serve me in some capacity - waiters, customer service reps, janitors. Unfortunately a lot of people are not kind towards service people. The smiles I always get in return (you really can hear a customer service rep smile over the phone when you're kind - which is kind of sad, actually) are so worth it. Nice begets nice. Being kind to others fosters kind relationships with people that you are close with as well.
2. When I needed to learn how to assert boundaries I started by just saying no to everything. I quickly learned what things I really wanted to do and what stuff I was doing out of meaningless obligation due to both a poor understanding of boundaries on my part and the propensity for toxic people to take advantage of that fact. This helped me learn that, for example, while I love to bake for monthly get-together with friends, sometimes I don't feel like it. So I don't. And my friends are nice and kind to me and always are appreciative when I bake but just as happy to see me when I don't. People with good boundaries generally keep company with those who have good boundaries as well.
Best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 11:19 PM on June 21, 2015 [19 favorites]
You sound like you've built up a lot of anger and resentment towards the people around you, and you think the only way to discharge that feeling is by being nasty to someone occasionally. This is completely incorrect. Acting out on your anger doesn't make that anger go away: it just makes it bigger and hotter and harder to control. The only way to make that angry, resentful feeling truly go away is to start setting boundaries with the people who are making you feel crappy.
To do this, you have to start listening to your own head and heart better. If someone asks you to do something for them, does that request make you feel angry? Does it make you feel trapped? Does it make you feel resentful? If it does, then tell them, "Sorry, I can't help with that." Don't make it a long excuse, just decline. If they press, keep repeating some version of, "Sorry, that won't be possible." Be polite, but firm. You don't have to shout or get nasty. Just keep holding the line. You will have to do this on multiple occasions, because the people around you are used to having one kind of relationship with you, and you're trying to change that. Continue being polite but firm, and they'll eventually form new habits around you.
posted by colfax at 6:49 AM on June 22, 2015
To do this, you have to start listening to your own head and heart better. If someone asks you to do something for them, does that request make you feel angry? Does it make you feel trapped? Does it make you feel resentful? If it does, then tell them, "Sorry, I can't help with that." Don't make it a long excuse, just decline. If they press, keep repeating some version of, "Sorry, that won't be possible." Be polite, but firm. You don't have to shout or get nasty. Just keep holding the line. You will have to do this on multiple occasions, because the people around you are used to having one kind of relationship with you, and you're trying to change that. Continue being polite but firm, and they'll eventually form new habits around you.
posted by colfax at 6:49 AM on June 22, 2015
Having someone else's (perhaps a therapist's) help for this part will really make this easier, but you need to figure out what signals you are putting out that may mislead people.
It is very likely you are non-verbally communicating a message of "I don't mind doing this for you," to people when, in fact, you do mind. If you don't realize you're doing it and are getting aggravated about it, you're probably confusing people and creating frustration for both yourself and them.
posted by Nerd of the North at 8:03 AM on June 22, 2015
It is very likely you are non-verbally communicating a message of "I don't mind doing this for you," to people when, in fact, you do mind. If you don't realize you're doing it and are getting aggravated about it, you're probably confusing people and creating frustration for both yourself and them.
posted by Nerd of the North at 8:03 AM on June 22, 2015
The world really isn't a you or it dichotomy. I can't think of a reason to be rude to a waiter because he's "taking advantage of you". The most powerful person in the room is never the tyrant. I get exactly what I want from most people, and we both win. If I don't, it's not a huge deal usually and certainly not worth my anger or bile.
The only one who can make you unhappy is you. If that sounds incredibly dumb to you, think about it for awhile. If someone shouts YOU ARE STUPID at you, that doesn't mean you are stupid, or that you have to internalize it. A healthy response would be "Wow, that guy is angry. That's too bad. I'm not stupid even if I messed something up." whereas an unhealthy response would be "FUCK YOU!" right back OR internalizing it and stewing on it so it poisons your outlook.
You were doing both of the unhealthy responses.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:32 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
The only one who can make you unhappy is you. If that sounds incredibly dumb to you, think about it for awhile. If someone shouts YOU ARE STUPID at you, that doesn't mean you are stupid, or that you have to internalize it. A healthy response would be "Wow, that guy is angry. That's too bad. I'm not stupid even if I messed something up." whereas an unhealthy response would be "FUCK YOU!" right back OR internalizing it and stewing on it so it poisons your outlook.
You were doing both of the unhealthy responses.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:32 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I fully understand that the relationships I've already formed are in a way tainted and may not ever be 100% fixed because I have shown myself to be submissive/passive/a push over... but I need to know how to break this cycle for new people I meet.
If you say relationships are "tainted" instead of "shaped" or "defined," it seems you're in a tough place. I think you could look at range and blend of personality types, not just "nice guy," "assertive guy" and "asshole." You can still be nice and at the same time assertive, helpful and considerate without being a pushover.
I have a relative who was like this - put everyone first for years, until they decided no one cared about what they thought. The pendulum swung hard, which has been startling, but I think they're finding a new center, and you will, too.
My suggestion to you is that in addition to or in place of therapy, find some people who can be frank and honest with you, and call you on being a jerk or when you're falling back on being too passive. Work on something like what DarlingBri mentioned above, determining for yourself how much something matters, and have some good responses that are clear and assertive.
You can re-set relationship boundaries, but that will take consistency. You can still be nice, helping friends when you have time, going out of your way when you like, but get comfortable firmly saying "no."
And exercise instead of venting on strangers. They're going about their own lives, trying to do something for you in a professional setting, they don't deserve to be your release. If anything, try to maintain your prior "nice guy" persona to people who are doing a tough job without respect or consideration, because that can make their day. But if you know a cabbie is going a longer route, ask them why they're taking this longer path (maybe they know there's an accident up ahead), and if a waiter brings you the wrong food, calmly point it out and don't eat (and pay for) something you didn't order (unless it's better than what you originally ordered :)).
posted by filthy light thief at 8:37 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you say relationships are "tainted" instead of "shaped" or "defined," it seems you're in a tough place. I think you could look at range and blend of personality types, not just "nice guy," "assertive guy" and "asshole." You can still be nice and at the same time assertive, helpful and considerate without being a pushover.
I have a relative who was like this - put everyone first for years, until they decided no one cared about what they thought. The pendulum swung hard, which has been startling, but I think they're finding a new center, and you will, too.
My suggestion to you is that in addition to or in place of therapy, find some people who can be frank and honest with you, and call you on being a jerk or when you're falling back on being too passive. Work on something like what DarlingBri mentioned above, determining for yourself how much something matters, and have some good responses that are clear and assertive.
You can re-set relationship boundaries, but that will take consistency. You can still be nice, helping friends when you have time, going out of your way when you like, but get comfortable firmly saying "no."
And exercise instead of venting on strangers. They're going about their own lives, trying to do something for you in a professional setting, they don't deserve to be your release. If anything, try to maintain your prior "nice guy" persona to people who are doing a tough job without respect or consideration, because that can make their day. But if you know a cabbie is going a longer route, ask them why they're taking this longer path (maybe they know there's an accident up ahead), and if a waiter brings you the wrong food, calmly point it out and don't eat (and pay for) something you didn't order (unless it's better than what you originally ordered :)).
posted by filthy light thief at 8:37 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
This book may resonate with you: No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover. I've heard from several men who have had similar issues to you; they've read the book and done the exercises and seen much improvement.
Athol Kay's body of work may also prove helpful. (Website, books, videos). His main focus is fixing a marital relationship; however, he does this by directing and encouraging each person in the relationship - especially the male partner - to improve their whole life: personal boundaries and self-worth, career, physical condition.
posted by Ardea alba at 9:20 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Athol Kay's body of work may also prove helpful. (Website, books, videos). His main focus is fixing a marital relationship; however, he does this by directing and encouraging each person in the relationship - especially the male partner - to improve their whole life: personal boundaries and self-worth, career, physical condition.
posted by Ardea alba at 9:20 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
This stuck out to me like a sore thumb when I first read your question.
I often go out of my way to help people I see/deal with regularly even when I don't really want to. Never am I ever expecting anything in return for my niceness or my help other then thinking that these same people will treat me with the kindness and respect I have shown them.
So why are helping people when you don't really want to? Especially if, as you say, you're not doing it to get something in return.
I think that's a really important question to ask yourself. The answer may not be pretty (I know from personal experience) but I bet it would be helpful for you in the long run. As people have suggested above, this would be a great thing to unpack with a therapist.
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 9:44 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I often go out of my way to help people I see/deal with regularly even when I don't really want to. Never am I ever expecting anything in return for my niceness or my help other then thinking that these same people will treat me with the kindness and respect I have shown them.
So why are helping people when you don't really want to? Especially if, as you say, you're not doing it to get something in return.
I think that's a really important question to ask yourself. The answer may not be pretty (I know from personal experience) but I bet it would be helpful for you in the long run. As people have suggested above, this would be a great thing to unpack with a therapist.
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 9:44 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nthing No More Mr. Nice Guy. It changed my life forever. The last 6 months have been the best ever in my life.
I was abused by my mom pretty bad and was totally programmed like you said, although it was usually only women, I was able to stand up for myself with men. But women, it was really hard.
That book changed my life. I can't recommend it highly enough.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:17 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was abused by my mom pretty bad and was totally programmed like you said, although it was usually only women, I was able to stand up for myself with men. But women, it was really hard.
That book changed my life. I can't recommend it highly enough.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:17 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
No More Mr. Nice Guy: yes yes yes yes yes.
posted by trinity8-director at 3:39 PM on June 22, 2015
posted by trinity8-director at 3:39 PM on June 22, 2015
No More Mr. Nice Guy, for sure, but skip the one problematic chapter where he tries to extrapolate his therapeutic observations into general social theory and ends up blaming women for everything.
posted by Ndwright at 5:20 PM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Ndwright at 5:20 PM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
What you are doing is classic passive aggression. Doing things you don't want to do because you are so desperate to gain approval from the people close to you, then seething with resentment toward them.
I'm glad you recognize this is fucked up and wanting to change this because the way you're behaving is ultimately abusive to the people close to you. You are lying to them (saying you agree when you actually don't) and then blaming them for your choice to lie, and taking out your frustrations on them. It's a profoundly shitty way to treat people.
Way deeo down in there is some kernel of yourself that is profoundly dependent on the approval of others to feel ok. That's why you are driven so desperately to go along. Get into therapy, dig that out, and heal it.
posted by Sublimity at 7:38 PM on June 22, 2015
I'm glad you recognize this is fucked up and wanting to change this because the way you're behaving is ultimately abusive to the people close to you. You are lying to them (saying you agree when you actually don't) and then blaming them for your choice to lie, and taking out your frustrations on them. It's a profoundly shitty way to treat people.
Way deeo down in there is some kernel of yourself that is profoundly dependent on the approval of others to feel ok. That's why you are driven so desperately to go along. Get into therapy, dig that out, and heal it.
posted by Sublimity at 7:38 PM on June 22, 2015
Yeah uh I just read No More Mr. Nice Guy and while there is some decent standard-issue emotional honesty and integrity therapy talk and stuff about drawing boundaries, prioritizing your own needs, breaking codependency and whatnot, it is also kinda a a heavy dose of rigid-gender-normative toxic masculinity and woman-blaming. Hunting and fishing and sports and bringing your masculine energy to leading your household and aren't feminists awful emasculating harpies and women won't respect you without your testicles and such. Be selective.
posted by ead at 11:55 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by ead at 11:55 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Yeah, what's that Sirius Black quote? "If you want to get the measure of a man, take a look at how he treats his [social] inferiors, not his equals." I don't have the third HP book with me, but you get my drift...
Sorry, but if you're treating waiters and cab drivers rudely, I'd posit that you aren't the nice guy you've imagined yourself to be. Maybe - probably! - this is the result of pent-up aggression you aren't expressing to people you know in a healthy way...but that's an inadequate excuse.
You need therapy. And to be successful in therapy, you should probably work on admitting to yourself that you aren't such a "nice guy," and that you already have some "asshole/mean guy" traits. Using your own terminology here.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 5:35 PM on June 21, 2015 [55 favorites]