While I was in a coma, you suggested I die
June 17, 2015 2:50 PM Subscribe
While I was in a coma earlier this year, one of my in-laws suggested my plug should be pulled.
In February of this year, I was critically ill and put into a medically induced coma for 30 days. While I was out, the doctors recommended a very risky surgery that I possibly would not make it through but it was the only chance for me. Since the alternative of doing nothing would lead to death, my husband, children and siblings all agreed having the surgery was the only way to go. If I was able to have a voice in this, I would have said, "Go for it!"
Before the surgery, my SIL pulled my husband aside and suggested to him that that he have me removed from the ventilator, call hospice and let me die. Needless to say, my husband and rest of my family were not happy with her suggestion.
SURPRISE! I pulled through the surgery and am now getting close to being back to normal. My husband waited about 2 months after I came home to tell me what she suggested. Of course I was shocked, angry and confused as to why she would have proposed this
This weekend I will see her for the first time since I became ill and am not sure how to react/respond to her. I certainly don't want to say nothing and let this eat me up inside, nor do I like drama. I am asking for thoughts on the best way to handle this.
In February of this year, I was critically ill and put into a medically induced coma for 30 days. While I was out, the doctors recommended a very risky surgery that I possibly would not make it through but it was the only chance for me. Since the alternative of doing nothing would lead to death, my husband, children and siblings all agreed having the surgery was the only way to go. If I was able to have a voice in this, I would have said, "Go for it!"
Before the surgery, my SIL pulled my husband aside and suggested to him that that he have me removed from the ventilator, call hospice and let me die. Needless to say, my husband and rest of my family were not happy with her suggestion.
SURPRISE! I pulled through the surgery and am now getting close to being back to normal. My husband waited about 2 months after I came home to tell me what she suggested. Of course I was shocked, angry and confused as to why she would have proposed this
This weekend I will see her for the first time since I became ill and am not sure how to react/respond to her. I certainly don't want to say nothing and let this eat me up inside, nor do I like drama. I am asking for thoughts on the best way to handle this.
Did she understand that it was a medically-induced coma and that your family was moving ahead with the surgery? I ask because otherwise her reasoning is bizarre as well as callous.
posted by bgal81 at 2:54 PM on June 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by bgal81 at 2:54 PM on June 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
This is a very complex situation that probably requires a therapist not an online forum.
I guess just keep in mind that some people might advocate the withdrawal of life support because they think that is the most loving and humane approach. I would advocate it for my own relatives and would want it for myself if the chances of long term survival at my current level of functioning was low (and it often is very, very low after a coma, depending on the cause, and age and condition of the person in the coma).
posted by latkes at 2:54 PM on June 17, 2015 [76 favorites]
I guess just keep in mind that some people might advocate the withdrawal of life support because they think that is the most loving and humane approach. I would advocate it for my own relatives and would want it for myself if the chances of long term survival at my current level of functioning was low (and it often is very, very low after a coma, depending on the cause, and age and condition of the person in the coma).
posted by latkes at 2:54 PM on June 17, 2015 [76 favorites]
What does your husband think you should do? I would discuss with him: it's likely he already went through the emotional and practical reactions to your SIL's suggestion.
But, I'd suggest doing your best to let it go: her suggestion is the way she handled a very emotional situation at the time; lots of people do stupid, unthinking things while confronted with such a difficult situation, and your SIL stuck her foot into the worst of it. She may be embarrassed by it, since others in your family may have already confronted or discussed it with her, and what are you to gain: her publicly apologizing for suggesting you die? Do you want her to admit she was wrong? Will that really help the situation?
posted by AzraelBrown at 2:59 PM on June 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
But, I'd suggest doing your best to let it go: her suggestion is the way she handled a very emotional situation at the time; lots of people do stupid, unthinking things while confronted with such a difficult situation, and your SIL stuck her foot into the worst of it. She may be embarrassed by it, since others in your family may have already confronted or discussed it with her, and what are you to gain: her publicly apologizing for suggesting you die? Do you want her to admit she was wrong? Will that really help the situation?
posted by AzraelBrown at 2:59 PM on June 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
It also depends a bit on what you want out of it. Clear the air? Explanation as to why she suggested what she did? Did she understand what the surgery was supposed to be for? Because I can think of ways that this would be totally innocent assholery and ways that it would be not innocent. Assuming for the moment that this was out of character (as you probably would have mentioned had it been in character):
"SIL, when I was in a coma you suggested that we take me off life support and let me go to hospice care, and I'm really upset about it. Can you give me more details about why you suggested it, so that we can go back to our old relationship? I don't want this to be secret knowledge that bothers me or to blow up our family from the drama, [if this is true] and I know you are a kind person so you probably meant this well but it did not come across well." Do this in private.
I'm glad you're doing better.
posted by jeather at 3:00 PM on June 17, 2015 [29 favorites]
"SIL, when I was in a coma you suggested that we take me off life support and let me go to hospice care, and I'm really upset about it. Can you give me more details about why you suggested it, so that we can go back to our old relationship? I don't want this to be secret knowledge that bothers me or to blow up our family from the drama, [if this is true] and I know you are a kind person so you probably meant this well but it did not come across well." Do this in private.
I'm glad you're doing better.
posted by jeather at 3:00 PM on June 17, 2015 [29 favorites]
Whoa, that sounds like an intense experience from beginning to end and I am sorry that you had to go through it.
My inclination is to not say anything on the matter at all - first, it's clear that there's no reason to ever include her in or provide information about your health.
Secondly, the best revenge is a life well-lived.
posted by stowaway at 3:00 PM on June 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
My inclination is to not say anything on the matter at all - first, it's clear that there's no reason to ever include her in or provide information about your health.
Secondly, the best revenge is a life well-lived.
posted by stowaway at 3:00 PM on June 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
Keep in mind, she believed that she had your husband's best interests at heart. It's good to have a variety of opinions in a medical situation. It allows the decider to see all sides.
If this was me, I'd make a joke of it. But that's me and I didn't just nearly die.
It seems unlikely (without additional information) that she was acting maliciously. And, hey: you're here. This seems like an easy thing to forgive.
posted by ColdChef at 3:02 PM on June 17, 2015 [24 favorites]
If this was me, I'd make a joke of it. But that's me and I didn't just nearly die.
It seems unlikely (without additional information) that she was acting maliciously. And, hey: you're here. This seems like an easy thing to forgive.
posted by ColdChef at 3:02 PM on June 17, 2015 [24 favorites]
(If it was me, I'd bring her a variety of extension cords and tell her that she's welcome to pull these plugs as often as she'd like. Not hilarious, but funny enough.)
posted by ColdChef at 3:05 PM on June 17, 2015 [54 favorites]
posted by ColdChef at 3:05 PM on June 17, 2015 [54 favorites]
Building on what latkes said, I think her motivation is really the determinant to how you should feel about her going forward, and will inform you about how to proceed this weekend. I have several friends and one family member that are very strong proponents of DNR, so if one of them were to suggest pulling the plug on someone in a coma, I would not be surprised. On the other hand, yeah, this was an induced coma and therefore therapeutic and planned, so WTF, SIL?!
I don't know what sort of history you have with her, if she's a person who sees the world through hopeful eyes or someone who sees death as the inevitable outcome waiting for each of us, but I would want to follow up with her. Especially since you are recovering (yay!) and will hopefully be present for years to come. So I suppose if this were me I'd try to approach this with as little bitterness and as much humor as possible - not necessarily jokey, but with sensitivity and some grace. And if she proves to be an asshole or refuses to explain herself, well, at least you know who to NOT trust with your medical Power of Attorney.
Congrats on your recovery, and I hope your health continues to improve.
posted by mosk at 3:11 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't know what sort of history you have with her, if she's a person who sees the world through hopeful eyes or someone who sees death as the inevitable outcome waiting for each of us, but I would want to follow up with her. Especially since you are recovering (yay!) and will hopefully be present for years to come. So I suppose if this were me I'd try to approach this with as little bitterness and as much humor as possible - not necessarily jokey, but with sensitivity and some grace. And if she proves to be an asshole or refuses to explain herself, well, at least you know who to NOT trust with your medical Power of Attorney.
Congrats on your recovery, and I hope your health continues to improve.
posted by mosk at 3:11 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Needless to say, my husband and rest of my family were not happy with her suggestion.
That's not necessarily a "needless to say," though. You were critically ill, and the surgery was "risky." Many, many people have Do Not Resuscitate orders or directives asking doctors not to take extraordinary lifesaving measures exactly because they do not want major interventions if there is little chance of success or little chance for a high quality of life afterward.
I know that many people want as much intervention as possible no matter the potential outcome, and that's fine, too. But there are absolutely valid arguments and feelings on both sides of the spectrum, and most people are coming from a place of love and compassion when advocating for either side.
posted by jaguar at 3:11 PM on June 17, 2015 [57 favorites]
That's not necessarily a "needless to say," though. You were critically ill, and the surgery was "risky." Many, many people have Do Not Resuscitate orders or directives asking doctors not to take extraordinary lifesaving measures exactly because they do not want major interventions if there is little chance of success or little chance for a high quality of life afterward.
I know that many people want as much intervention as possible no matter the potential outcome, and that's fine, too. But there are absolutely valid arguments and feelings on both sides of the spectrum, and most people are coming from a place of love and compassion when advocating for either side.
posted by jaguar at 3:11 PM on June 17, 2015 [57 favorites]
Its possible she had a personal experience with a friend or family member who was in a coma and ended up suffering a lot. She also might not have understood what exactly going on and mistakenly thought chances of recovery were extremely low.
posted by hermanubis at 3:12 PM on June 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by hermanubis at 3:12 PM on June 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
There was no real reason for him to tell you what she said. I don't know why she said it to begin with - since there was apparently still a decent chance - and I don't know how he thought it would help anybody to mention it to you now.
Best to just let it go. I suppose you could ask her why, but I don't really know what you hope to gain from this.
If there's one lesson to learn from this experience:
Write a living will. Plan for whatever you can.
posted by Strudel at 3:12 PM on June 17, 2015 [65 favorites]
Best to just let it go. I suppose you could ask her why, but I don't really know what you hope to gain from this.
If there's one lesson to learn from this experience:
Write a living will. Plan for whatever you can.
posted by Strudel at 3:12 PM on June 17, 2015 [65 favorites]
I think people are kind of missing this part, and OP, I think you're kind of downplaying this:
the doctors recommended a very risky surgery that I possibly would not make it through but it was the only chance for me. Since the alternative of doing nothing would lead to death
It sounds like you would not have just woken up from the coma, medically induced or not.
posted by jaguar at 3:13 PM on June 17, 2015 [17 favorites]
the doctors recommended a very risky surgery that I possibly would not make it through but it was the only chance for me. Since the alternative of doing nothing would lead to death
It sounds like you would not have just woken up from the coma, medically induced or not.
posted by jaguar at 3:13 PM on June 17, 2015 [17 favorites]
Why would your husband tell you this? This seems to me to be a prime example whereby him pretending it never happened, never mentioning it again, and brushing it under the rug like they used to do in the good old repressed days would have been a nice option. In your shoes, I would be mad at him for burdening me with this information.
I think advice on how to proceed is contingent on whether your husband has told her you know about her suggestion, and whether he has told her how you feel about it.
posted by bimbam at 3:14 PM on June 17, 2015 [138 favorites]
I think advice on how to proceed is contingent on whether your husband has told her you know about her suggestion, and whether he has told her how you feel about it.
posted by bimbam at 3:14 PM on June 17, 2015 [138 favorites]
She didn't know what she was doing or saying. She's not a doctor and as easy as it is for me to say, try not to take this personally. She may feel regretful or embarrassed for suggesting that life support be discontinued. The best thing you can do for yourself, and for her, is to forgive her and accept that a well-intentioned and uninformed person suggested something, nothing else. When you look at it, she really did nothing to you.
posted by Fairchild at 3:17 PM on June 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Fairchild at 3:17 PM on June 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
This is one hundred percent the kind of suggestion that could have been entirely well meant--it's quite probably the suggestion that I'd make in a similar situation. Risky surgeries often don't have great outcomes--and if you're lucky, the not-great outcome is death. If you're not lucky, it's maybe the rest of your life in pain, repeated medical interventions, possibly unable to live independently or to communicate--and that's before you start looking at the financial and emotional costs not just the surgery, but the possibility of long-term care, etc. I feel really strongly that in many cases, dying as painlessly as possible is a better alternative, and it's certainly what I would advocate for in the event that I or someone I loved was faced with this scenario.
Please try not to read too much into this--I feel like "suggested that I die" is about as uncharitable a read as you can make, here.
posted by MeghanC at 3:18 PM on June 17, 2015 [54 favorites]
Please try not to read too much into this--I feel like "suggested that I die" is about as uncharitable a read as you can make, here.
posted by MeghanC at 3:18 PM on June 17, 2015 [54 favorites]
People say really crazy, illogical, poorly worded things when faced with stressful, traumatic experiences. I'm sure your SIL did not actually want you to be dead, but was likely not thinking clearly and was trying to just support your husband (her brother?).
For example, perhaps your husband was really struggling with the risks involved in the decision and she was just trying to let him know that she would be there for him if he decided that he couldn't go through with a procedure that might kill you.
I mean, really, if I was told my spouse might die from a risky procedure I sure as hell would have a hard time coming to terms with that decision if I agreed to the procedure and he then died.
I think the most important question is: does your SIL seem happy that you are alive and recovering now? If so, let that speak for her.
posted by joan_holloway at 3:21 PM on June 17, 2015 [17 favorites]
For example, perhaps your husband was really struggling with the risks involved in the decision and she was just trying to let him know that she would be there for him if he decided that he couldn't go through with a procedure that might kill you.
I mean, really, if I was told my spouse might die from a risky procedure I sure as hell would have a hard time coming to terms with that decision if I agreed to the procedure and he then died.
I think the most important question is: does your SIL seem happy that you are alive and recovering now? If so, let that speak for her.
posted by joan_holloway at 3:21 PM on June 17, 2015 [17 favorites]
She was trying to support her brother going through a difficult time. You're thinking about this like "My SIL tried to kill me!" Well technically but also she was trying to bring up a difficult subject that may well have been in your best interest. I would just let it go.
posted by bleep at 3:21 PM on June 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by bleep at 3:21 PM on June 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
I'm so sorry you went through this. What happened with your sister-in-law does sound like a classic case for "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Some people are extraordinarily attached to the idea of DNR for themselves and project it onto other people too. I would just assume it was on that kind of level, and be nice to her. I too am kind of curious as to why your husband told you in the first place, though. Can you find out?
posted by BibiRose at 3:37 PM on June 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 3:37 PM on June 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Seriously, why did he tell you this? It's possible that she was envisioning a catastrophic outcome (likely or not) and wanted to offer support for the alternative. And she may have been putting herself in your place and felt overwhelmed by the possibility of a negative outcome. Luckily, she is not your medical power of attorney and other people like your health care advisors and your spouse were able to make a decision for you. And luckily, that outcome was positive. Unless there's some specific animosity between you, I'd give her a warm hug when you see her and never speak of it. If I were in her place, I'd be feeling very guilty and terrible about having said that even though no one could have predicted the precise outcome.
You need to heal; let this go.
posted by amanda at 3:43 PM on June 17, 2015 [14 favorites]
You need to heal; let this go.
posted by amanda at 3:43 PM on June 17, 2015 [14 favorites]
Correctly or incorrectly, I get the sense that you're thinking of this in terms of, "I lived through the surgery, so clearly she was wrong." I understand why you think that, but the real question is, "was it obvious at the time of the surgery that I would live through the surgery?"
Well-meaning and compassionate people can come to questionable decisions through an entirely appropriate decision process. Unless you actually think your SIL would prefer you dead (in which case I don't know why you even want to talk with her), I'd give her the benefit of the doubt. You already suggested what might be going on here with the wording "[i]f I was able to have a voice in this". You weren't able to have a voice in this. As such, the entire family (which includes your SIL) needs to make a decision for you. Trust me, it isn't easy to go through these decisions, and blazing through them without contemplation is not to anyone's benefit.
The real answer here is what Strudel correctly indicated - this is why a living will is absolutely necessary.
posted by saeculorum at 3:43 PM on June 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
Well-meaning and compassionate people can come to questionable decisions through an entirely appropriate decision process. Unless you actually think your SIL would prefer you dead (in which case I don't know why you even want to talk with her), I'd give her the benefit of the doubt. You already suggested what might be going on here with the wording "[i]f I was able to have a voice in this". You weren't able to have a voice in this. As such, the entire family (which includes your SIL) needs to make a decision for you. Trust me, it isn't easy to go through these decisions, and blazing through them without contemplation is not to anyone's benefit.
The real answer here is what Strudel correctly indicated - this is why a living will is absolutely necessary.
posted by saeculorum at 3:43 PM on June 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
If I was able to have a voice in this, I would have said, "Go for it!" Of course I was shocked, angry and confused as to why she would have proposed this
I presume you had no living will and that therefore nobody knew you would be urging them to go for it. It's a dreadful situation and not knowing anything about the specifics of your condition, I can't say that looking at someone in a coma and the suffering of their spouse and children as they suffered the agony if impending loss and the uncertainty of the whole thing, I too would not have suggested and ending to it.
Some people are wired to believe that where there is life, there is hope. Others of us are not. My spouse is under strict instructions: if in doubt, terminate my life support. I don't think it's fair of you to be angry at her for calling the different side of a spinning coin.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:48 PM on June 17, 2015 [27 favorites]
I presume you had no living will and that therefore nobody knew you would be urging them to go for it. It's a dreadful situation and not knowing anything about the specifics of your condition, I can't say that looking at someone in a coma and the suffering of their spouse and children as they suffered the agony if impending loss and the uncertainty of the whole thing, I too would not have suggested and ending to it.
Some people are wired to believe that where there is life, there is hope. Others of us are not. My spouse is under strict instructions: if in doubt, terminate my life support. I don't think it's fair of you to be angry at her for calling the different side of a spinning coin.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:48 PM on June 17, 2015 [27 favorites]
Another voice for the side of, "she wasn't trying to kill you." I probably would have suggested the same thing if I were in her position as a possibility for your husband to think of, rather than face a risky procedure that might fail or lead to a horrifying outcome.
I'm also adding to the chorus of voices wondering why your husband felt the need to inform you of this when ignorance in this case would have very much meant bliss for everyone.
posted by patheral at 4:04 PM on June 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm also adding to the chorus of voices wondering why your husband felt the need to inform you of this when ignorance in this case would have very much meant bliss for everyone.
posted by patheral at 4:04 PM on June 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
SURPRISE! I pulled through the surgery and am now getting close to being back to normal...
This weekend I will see her for the first time since I became ill and am not sure how to react/respond to her.
Okay, a couple of things:
-- You're not even back to normal yet. You do not HAVE to see her. I consider it kind of beyond the call of duty for you to be, say, going to a family event at this point, or having family come visit. Whatever it is, cancel your involvement. Seriously. You need more time to process this.
-- I agree with the person above who said this is heavier stuff than is appropriate for Ask Me. You really need to see a counselor about this.
-- I think a lot depends on how you think the SIL feels about you. I am sorry to say it, but I really CAN imagine in many families where it is thought that Johnny married poorly, his sister or other family might regard a coma and a pulling of the plug a rather convenient way to give Johnny an uncomplicated second chance ... and broach it just like your SIL did. Is there any chance that that's what happened?
-- Just as likely is that SIL is an idiot who has heard all the talk about DNR directives and was just talking to be talking ... it's become almost fashionable in the last decade or so to not want extraordinary measures taken to resuscitate oneself. Reminds me of a witty piece I think I read in Slate.com where the writer said "I wanna know why there aren't easy, preprinted forms directing that ALL EXTRAORDINARY MEASURES be taken to keep me alive, no matter how extreme or expensive." She may have just been ill advisedly voicing what she had heard about dying with dignity and so forth.
posted by jayder at 4:05 PM on June 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
This weekend I will see her for the first time since I became ill and am not sure how to react/respond to her.
Okay, a couple of things:
-- You're not even back to normal yet. You do not HAVE to see her. I consider it kind of beyond the call of duty for you to be, say, going to a family event at this point, or having family come visit. Whatever it is, cancel your involvement. Seriously. You need more time to process this.
-- I agree with the person above who said this is heavier stuff than is appropriate for Ask Me. You really need to see a counselor about this.
-- I think a lot depends on how you think the SIL feels about you. I am sorry to say it, but I really CAN imagine in many families where it is thought that Johnny married poorly, his sister or other family might regard a coma and a pulling of the plug a rather convenient way to give Johnny an uncomplicated second chance ... and broach it just like your SIL did. Is there any chance that that's what happened?
-- Just as likely is that SIL is an idiot who has heard all the talk about DNR directives and was just talking to be talking ... it's become almost fashionable in the last decade or so to not want extraordinary measures taken to resuscitate oneself. Reminds me of a witty piece I think I read in Slate.com where the writer said "I wanna know why there aren't easy, preprinted forms directing that ALL EXTRAORDINARY MEASURES be taken to keep me alive, no matter how extreme or expensive." She may have just been ill advisedly voicing what she had heard about dying with dignity and so forth.
posted by jayder at 4:05 PM on June 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
Hit post too soon, to answer your question... I wouldn't bring it up with her at all. With just the information given, I'd say that she wasn't acting with malicious intent and you don't need to confront her about this. If it comes up, you might ask why, but otherwise, just carry on as normal... happy to be alive and glad it all worked out in the end.
posted by patheral at 4:06 PM on June 17, 2015
posted by patheral at 4:06 PM on June 17, 2015
It seems weird in retrospect, if your options were extremely clear cut like this:
a) do nothing and definitely die
b) do the thing and either it works or you die
But if she didn't understand it that clearly, she may have thought she was giving appropriate advice. Some people have really intense body horror at the thought of being put through a surgery that fails, especially if the failure mode might not be terminal but another variation on shitty.
Whatever her intention, I think now that your husband has opted to go this route, he needs to tell her that he told you. She can either explain, or she can live with the awkwardness at least as much as you are.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:07 PM on June 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
a) do nothing and definitely die
b) do the thing and either it works or you die
But if she didn't understand it that clearly, she may have thought she was giving appropriate advice. Some people have really intense body horror at the thought of being put through a surgery that fails, especially if the failure mode might not be terminal but another variation on shitty.
Whatever her intention, I think now that your husband has opted to go this route, he needs to tell her that he told you. She can either explain, or she can live with the awkwardness at least as much as you are.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:07 PM on June 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
oh. duh. I forgot actually to answer your question.
I think you shouldn't see her this weekend, but if you must, you shouldn't mention it.
posted by jayder at 4:14 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think you shouldn't see her this weekend, but if you must, you shouldn't mention it.
posted by jayder at 4:14 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am so glad that you recovered well.
I'm with everyone here suggesting that your SIL was not trying to end your life . I've spent a fair amount of time in ICUs and one of the things we hear from families is that it is very hard to stop the train of interventions and treatments once it's going, and people often end up getting treatments that theyight not have wanted, because it's one step after another, and every step seems reasonable but the overall result is not what the patient would have wanted. Many people do want "everything" done, but many people do not. It's hard to say without knowing your relationship with your SIL, but a charitable interpretation if her actions might be that she wanted to be sure your husband knew there were other options if he didn't think you would want the full court press. I don't think this is malicious or a sign that she doesn't care for you a lot.
It's great that you came through the surgery and are doing so well, but I don't think you should be angry at your SIL for having a conversation about palliative care. If I were you, I'd seize this chance to make sure your family is aware of your preferences if you ever end up in a situation where you're not able to voice an opinion.
posted by The Elusive Architeuthis at 4:16 PM on June 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'm with everyone here suggesting that your SIL was not trying to end your life . I've spent a fair amount of time in ICUs and one of the things we hear from families is that it is very hard to stop the train of interventions and treatments once it's going, and people often end up getting treatments that theyight not have wanted, because it's one step after another, and every step seems reasonable but the overall result is not what the patient would have wanted. Many people do want "everything" done, but many people do not. It's hard to say without knowing your relationship with your SIL, but a charitable interpretation if her actions might be that she wanted to be sure your husband knew there were other options if he didn't think you would want the full court press. I don't think this is malicious or a sign that she doesn't care for you a lot.
It's great that you came through the surgery and are doing so well, but I don't think you should be angry at your SIL for having a conversation about palliative care. If I were you, I'd seize this chance to make sure your family is aware of your preferences if you ever end up in a situation where you're not able to voice an opinion.
posted by The Elusive Architeuthis at 4:16 PM on June 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
Although the circumstances were different, when my mother was hospitalized with a stroke that compromised both sides of her brain, caused by a massive heart attack, a doctor completely freaked my sister out by, first, making it appear that my mother was responsive by running his thumb down the sole of her foot as he yelled her name, causing her to reflexively jerk her head and open her eyes, and second, by telling my sister that if we did not agree to insert a feeding tube, we would be starving her to death.
My mother had no chance of recovery and I know the doctor knew this. To do as he insisted would have meant years (decades?) of a persistent vegetative state. I shuttled him out of the room and sat my sister down and said, "don't believe that charlatan." I gave her information about end of life care from my own experience and training. In other circumstances, that would have been sufficient but because this person had upset her so much, she wasn't able to think through the situation until she had spoken with a social worker and another doctor.
A stranger looking at this situation might have seen me as an angel of death and a heartless person. So much is up to perspective. Your SIL likely did not know all of the details and may very well have been doing her best for all concerned. I agree that letting it go is the best answer, but if you can't, please ask to hear from her what her thoughts and intentions were, as there's no knowing at this juncture.
With respect to the living will -- While it is a very good thing to have one (google: Advance Directive and the name of your state), the situation would have been exactly the same in your case. You will state your wishes, your husband will be appointed attorney in fact to carry out your wishes as you have told him and as you have described in the Advance Directive, and your SIL would still be likely to give her opinion as to the best way in which your wishes would be carried out. Also, there's a big difference between saying in an Advance Directive that you do not wish for extraordinary means to be used to keep you alive if there is no chance that you will recover, vs. the decision to be made here, which was between on the one hand a risky surgery that could end in death or on the other hand no surgery and certain death. I'm not sure that having an Advance Directive would have helped your family make their decision in this case.
Anyway, I'm so glad you are doing well, and I hope that you can let yourself be grateful for the good outcome and forgive the intervening nonsense.
posted by janey47 at 4:22 PM on June 17, 2015 [24 favorites]
My mother had no chance of recovery and I know the doctor knew this. To do as he insisted would have meant years (decades?) of a persistent vegetative state. I shuttled him out of the room and sat my sister down and said, "don't believe that charlatan." I gave her information about end of life care from my own experience and training. In other circumstances, that would have been sufficient but because this person had upset her so much, she wasn't able to think through the situation until she had spoken with a social worker and another doctor.
A stranger looking at this situation might have seen me as an angel of death and a heartless person. So much is up to perspective. Your SIL likely did not know all of the details and may very well have been doing her best for all concerned. I agree that letting it go is the best answer, but if you can't, please ask to hear from her what her thoughts and intentions were, as there's no knowing at this juncture.
With respect to the living will -- While it is a very good thing to have one (google: Advance Directive and the name of your state), the situation would have been exactly the same in your case. You will state your wishes, your husband will be appointed attorney in fact to carry out your wishes as you have told him and as you have described in the Advance Directive, and your SIL would still be likely to give her opinion as to the best way in which your wishes would be carried out. Also, there's a big difference between saying in an Advance Directive that you do not wish for extraordinary means to be used to keep you alive if there is no chance that you will recover, vs. the decision to be made here, which was between on the one hand a risky surgery that could end in death or on the other hand no surgery and certain death. I'm not sure that having an Advance Directive would have helped your family make their decision in this case.
Anyway, I'm so glad you are doing well, and I hope that you can let yourself be grateful for the good outcome and forgive the intervening nonsense.
posted by janey47 at 4:22 PM on June 17, 2015 [24 favorites]
How people make decisions for loved ones in a health crisis is a very individual thing. Well-meaning, loving, kind, intelligent, and compassionate people regularly find themselves on opposite sides of decisions like the one your husband made for you. This is why it's critical to think through where you stand, and make sure that the person who gets to make medical decisions for you understands this and also has properly registered legal paperwork with your wishes detailed. It seems clear that your husband was very in-tune with what you wanted. Great! This is a best case scenario! Even better that the incredibly risky surgery was amazingly successful!
But, to characterize your sister-in-law's suggestion as somehow cruel, inappropriate, or filled will malice is unfair (unless she's absolutely pathologically horrible toward you in real life and literally wishes that you'd die). It's entirely possible that she took your medical prognosis to be dire and without any hope and wanted to spare you the suffering of fruitless surgeries and trying every last intervention despite how unlikely the intervention's success would be. People regularly get lots of painful and hard-to-endure "heroic" treatments that only prolong suffering at the expense of a peaceful death. Clearly, this wasn't the case for you as you beat the odds, but that doesn't mean that all heroic and rarely successful treatments are the right decision. It's very likely that she made this suggestion while overwhelmed by grief and also with great concern that you not suffer needlessly or, possibly worse, that you'd survive, but be left in such a diminished state that you'd no longer be you. Medical choices are very rarely die or risk it all and possibly recover fully. There's a terrible middle ground that can have your body clinging to life while your mind is either locked-in or no longer operating. It's hardly a terrible thing to want to spare a loved one from suffering.
What I really can't understand is why your husband would share something like this with you when nothing good can come of it and it also will likely cause you pain and potentially damage your relationship with your family. I'd give your sister-in-law the benefit of the doubt and try to figure out what drove husband's decision to tell you. Has he somehow focused his anger and feeling of powerlessness about your illness onto your sister-in-law and now can't let go? Is he totally unable to see her suggestion in a charitable light? Seeing your life partner on death's doorstep and having to make very hard decisions can be a tremendous emotional and mental trauma. He may still be reeling and need some help to put it all behind him. I'd suggest that he seek some therapy to work through this. Him telling you this terrible thing could easily be a sign that he's not managing well and needs some help. In fact, it's the only scenario that makes sense to me in this situation.
To be clear, though, I think neither you nor your husband are ready to see her. It's OK to give yourselves some room to process and heal from this. Do whatever you have to to put this behind you. Good luck.
posted by quince at 4:28 PM on June 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
But, to characterize your sister-in-law's suggestion as somehow cruel, inappropriate, or filled will malice is unfair (unless she's absolutely pathologically horrible toward you in real life and literally wishes that you'd die). It's entirely possible that she took your medical prognosis to be dire and without any hope and wanted to spare you the suffering of fruitless surgeries and trying every last intervention despite how unlikely the intervention's success would be. People regularly get lots of painful and hard-to-endure "heroic" treatments that only prolong suffering at the expense of a peaceful death. Clearly, this wasn't the case for you as you beat the odds, but that doesn't mean that all heroic and rarely successful treatments are the right decision. It's very likely that she made this suggestion while overwhelmed by grief and also with great concern that you not suffer needlessly or, possibly worse, that you'd survive, but be left in such a diminished state that you'd no longer be you. Medical choices are very rarely die or risk it all and possibly recover fully. There's a terrible middle ground that can have your body clinging to life while your mind is either locked-in or no longer operating. It's hardly a terrible thing to want to spare a loved one from suffering.
What I really can't understand is why your husband would share something like this with you when nothing good can come of it and it also will likely cause you pain and potentially damage your relationship with your family. I'd give your sister-in-law the benefit of the doubt and try to figure out what drove husband's decision to tell you. Has he somehow focused his anger and feeling of powerlessness about your illness onto your sister-in-law and now can't let go? Is he totally unable to see her suggestion in a charitable light? Seeing your life partner on death's doorstep and having to make very hard decisions can be a tremendous emotional and mental trauma. He may still be reeling and need some help to put it all behind him. I'd suggest that he seek some therapy to work through this. Him telling you this terrible thing could easily be a sign that he's not managing well and needs some help. In fact, it's the only scenario that makes sense to me in this situation.
To be clear, though, I think neither you nor your husband are ready to see her. It's OK to give yourselves some room to process and heal from this. Do whatever you have to to put this behind you. Good luck.
posted by quince at 4:28 PM on June 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
...a very risky surgery that I possibly would not make it through but it was the only chance for me.
Need more information. What were the possible outcomes of the surgery, 100% chance of death if it failed? Possibility of a vegetative state? Something else? This would have a great deal of impact on how I might weight in if you had been my family member and how I would view your sister-in-law's advice.
But in any case, this is something you need to talk to your therapist about. And if you don't have one, you should get one, not just for this, but for all you have gone through.
posted by nanook at 4:30 PM on June 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Need more information. What were the possible outcomes of the surgery, 100% chance of death if it failed? Possibility of a vegetative state? Something else? This would have a great deal of impact on how I might weight in if you had been my family member and how I would view your sister-in-law's advice.
But in any case, this is something you need to talk to your therapist about. And if you don't have one, you should get one, not just for this, but for all you have gone through.
posted by nanook at 4:30 PM on June 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
I don't think we can make a judge's ruling on this one without more information:
(a) Do you and SIL get along? Does she hate your guts or like you?
(b) Does she have any previous history in dealing with ill relatives, people in comas, etc. that might have scarred her for life?
Because as others have said (disclaimer: we had to pull the plug on my dad back in the day), she could have been looking at it from a POV of "put her out of her misery" and not meant it in a bad way. On the other hand, if SIL didn't like you before this, uh....
Anyway, I loved Cold Chef's cords joke, but you should probably never, ever mention that you know this information. (And if I were your husband, I don't think I would have told you because good god, what are you going to do with that information for the rest of your life in dealing with her?!) No good will come from a confrontation about it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:47 PM on June 17, 2015
(a) Do you and SIL get along? Does she hate your guts or like you?
(b) Does she have any previous history in dealing with ill relatives, people in comas, etc. that might have scarred her for life?
Because as others have said (disclaimer: we had to pull the plug on my dad back in the day), she could have been looking at it from a POV of "put her out of her misery" and not meant it in a bad way. On the other hand, if SIL didn't like you before this, uh....
Anyway, I loved Cold Chef's cords joke, but you should probably never, ever mention that you know this information. (And if I were your husband, I don't think I would have told you because good god, what are you going to do with that information for the rest of your life in dealing with her?!) No good will come from a confrontation about it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:47 PM on June 17, 2015
I'm not sure what you should do but I just want to validate your feelings that it's fucked up that she suggested that and it's even more fucked up that your husband decided to tell you about it after. Hugs.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:16 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 5:16 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I spent way too much time in ICU's with my mother and then my father as they passed, and one thing I'll never forget, as friends and family would visit, is that people tend to say some really stupid shit when a friend or relative is in the hospital.
There are any number of reasons for this: it's an unpleasant situation, most people don't have much experience with it and don't know how to handle it, etc.
In the cold light of day, when you think back on it - do you really think she was maliciously attempting to get you killed? I wasn't there. I don't know what kind of relationship you have with your SIL. But - if it were me, and especially after a close brush with death - I'd much rather forgive, forget, and put as much of what was undoubtedly a horribly unpleasant experience behind me.
posted by doctor tough love at 5:26 PM on June 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
There are any number of reasons for this: it's an unpleasant situation, most people don't have much experience with it and don't know how to handle it, etc.
In the cold light of day, when you think back on it - do you really think she was maliciously attempting to get you killed? I wasn't there. I don't know what kind of relationship you have with your SIL. But - if it were me, and especially after a close brush with death - I'd much rather forgive, forget, and put as much of what was undoubtedly a horribly unpleasant experience behind me.
posted by doctor tough love at 5:26 PM on June 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's only considered stupidity or malice because we now know that you pulled through and are fine. At the time, you had no such assurances and I could easily see how your SIL could have put this idea out there as the loving compassionate option in what would have been an unbelievably stressful time for your family. Hindsight is 20/20 after all. You should never have been made aware of this fact and I would try my best to put it behind you if that's possible. And I'm overjoyed that you're here to have any kind of relationship at all with your SIL, so why not focus on making it a good one.
posted by Jubey at 5:35 PM on June 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 5:35 PM on June 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
This sounds like she was looking out for her brother and misunderstood the options, or was not privy to them.
Too often, people are not willing to let someone go, even if all hope is gone. That was not the case here, obviously, but there needs to be a voice of reason when life support will not lead to recovery.
posted by oflinkey at 5:38 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Too often, people are not willing to let someone go, even if all hope is gone. That was not the case here, obviously, but there needs to be a voice of reason when life support will not lead to recovery.
posted by oflinkey at 5:38 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Certainly, she should have said--just once, and only if she and your husband are close--"What do you think Anon would want you to choose?" But my advice would be to do a lot more thinking about what her suggestion really meant before you let it eat away at you. Unless she's a malicious person who really doesn't like you, my money would be on differing wishes regarding medical decision-making in extreme circumstances. Clearly your husband knew your wishes, but I imagine your SIL most likely hadn't heard them.
I wonder if she felt like she was the one person with enough distance to consider the possible downsides of going ahead with the surgery (while your closest family were fixated on the possibility that this very risky surgery would work out)--while also being close enough that she felt she could speak candidly to her brother. Or maybe she's just the type of person who inserts herself into other people's business. Maybe she was worried about her brother making (what she saw as) an ill-informed decision, or maybe she was thinking about what she would want if she were the one in a coma, or both, or something else entirely. Maybe she shared her opinion/concern/whatever in a thoughtless way, or maybe your husband was so distraught that anything she said would have felt heartless. I guess I'm just saying what you describe as a straightforwardly shocking thing.
You had a strong emotional reaction to hearing about this conversation, coming on the heels of what must have been an emotionally exhausting medical ordeal. But I don't think your options are to either confront her or let this eat away at you. While you were near-death, she made a medical suggestion that wasn't her place to make. I suspect this is less about her and more about the intense emotional experience you and your family have been through.
posted by Meg_Murry at 5:48 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wonder if she felt like she was the one person with enough distance to consider the possible downsides of going ahead with the surgery (while your closest family were fixated on the possibility that this very risky surgery would work out)--while also being close enough that she felt she could speak candidly to her brother. Or maybe she's just the type of person who inserts herself into other people's business. Maybe she was worried about her brother making (what she saw as) an ill-informed decision, or maybe she was thinking about what she would want if she were the one in a coma, or both, or something else entirely. Maybe she shared her opinion/concern/whatever in a thoughtless way, or maybe your husband was so distraught that anything she said would have felt heartless. I guess I'm just saying what you describe as a straightforwardly shocking thing.
You had a strong emotional reaction to hearing about this conversation, coming on the heels of what must have been an emotionally exhausting medical ordeal. But I don't think your options are to either confront her or let this eat away at you. While you were near-death, she made a medical suggestion that wasn't her place to make. I suspect this is less about her and more about the intense emotional experience you and your family have been through.
posted by Meg_Murry at 5:48 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
My wife and I have faced critical situations in hospitals where life and death decisions have to be made, and you have to talk bluntly about all the possibilities. Our son was in the NICU for 3 months and there were times where we had conversations about very difficult topics where we hashed out every possibility. I think I saw on metafilter a good rule for those sorts of conversations:
What happens during those talks in the hospital, stays at the hospital.
I would be livid if my wife said to my son down the track "oh your father brought up the idea of not going ahead with x surgery, which turned out to be totally successful". In those moments you need to have all kinds of "what if" conversations.
To me, this speaks more about your husband than your sister in law. That should have stayed where it happened, in the middle of a crisis life and death decision time. Why, oh why, would he tell you that? What possible good could it do anyone to have you know that?
posted by Admira at 5:49 PM on June 17, 2015 [63 favorites]
What happens during those talks in the hospital, stays at the hospital.
I would be livid if my wife said to my son down the track "oh your father brought up the idea of not going ahead with x surgery, which turned out to be totally successful". In those moments you need to have all kinds of "what if" conversations.
To me, this speaks more about your husband than your sister in law. That should have stayed where it happened, in the middle of a crisis life and death decision time. Why, oh why, would he tell you that? What possible good could it do anyone to have you know that?
posted by Admira at 5:49 PM on June 17, 2015 [63 favorites]
To make sure there is no misunderstanding regarding your health care wishes or end of life wishes on the part of loved ones, family or any personal representatives make sure you complete a detailed advanced healthcare directive applicable to your state. This also allows the appointment of a specific representative or alternate to act on your behalf in the event you are unable to do so based on your instructions. This makes it clear what your instructions, feelings, desires are regarding treatment options.
posted by WinstonJulia at 6:00 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by WinstonJulia at 6:00 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am glad you got better. With that said, Her suggestion was not for you. It was not with you in mind. It was for the people around you that you love. It was a suggestion she likely hated to make, but was there because very rarely do people think about the condition someone may be in when they don't come back - that those you love would be chained to your bedside, every day reminded that the lost you in every way besides your corporal form. Her suggestion was to make sure that if your husband needed to make that decision that he knew it was okay - that if it was in his mind that he knew there was family support. Your husband told you because he was frightened, and having to make that decision was an actual decision that he had to weigh - not your sister in law.
Your husband, and likely your sister in law, love you - and are likely very glad that you pulled through. Advocating for a controllable and peaceful death doesn't mean they don't love you - in fact, that could have been a decision they would have had to live with for the rest of their lives.
My wife has said, she wouldn't know what to do if I was in a similar situation. But, having a voice in dissent of the popular opinion also acts as a support if the decision to be made had been to end life support.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:11 PM on June 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
Your husband, and likely your sister in law, love you - and are likely very glad that you pulled through. Advocating for a controllable and peaceful death doesn't mean they don't love you - in fact, that could have been a decision they would have had to live with for the rest of their lives.
My wife has said, she wouldn't know what to do if I was in a similar situation. But, having a voice in dissent of the popular opinion also acts as a support if the decision to be made had been to end life support.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:11 PM on June 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
Also, to justify her husband saying that... He likely felt guilt, because likely a little piece was scared that making this decision would have been the wrong decision and a more peaceful death could have been preferable. Both he and your sister likely told you not to be mean, but for an opportunity for forgiveness - even if they chose right and did nothing wrong. Part of them considered doing something that they may have been ashamed of.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:15 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:15 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
To me, this speaks more about your husband than your sister in law. That should have stayed where it happened, in the middle of a crisis life and death decision time. Why, oh why, would he tell you that? What possible good could it do anyone to have you know that?
It's not entirely the same but I had something similar where my husband threw information at me that I was incapable of dealing with, was not something I needed to deal with, that was about him, and did it in such a way as to completely compromise a lot of things (work, our relationship, the upcoming events for the next month, my mental health). It did not go well and it's been 18 months and I'm still dealing with how hurt I was. The most validating thing that happened was my therapist (I put myself back into the mental health care system the moment I could use a phone again after he gave me the information) said "it wasn't okay for him to burden you with something he could, and should, have dealt with on his own, and if he was going to involve you, he should have approached it with more care".
What was the point of bringing you into a discussion and an event you have no control over?
(that said, I agree this was probably a 'worst case scenario, what I'd want' type thing from your SIL, even though in the same situation I'd be devastated too)
posted by geek anachronism at 6:35 PM on June 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's not entirely the same but I had something similar where my husband threw information at me that I was incapable of dealing with, was not something I needed to deal with, that was about him, and did it in such a way as to completely compromise a lot of things (work, our relationship, the upcoming events for the next month, my mental health). It did not go well and it's been 18 months and I'm still dealing with how hurt I was. The most validating thing that happened was my therapist (I put myself back into the mental health care system the moment I could use a phone again after he gave me the information) said "it wasn't okay for him to burden you with something he could, and should, have dealt with on his own, and if he was going to involve you, he should have approached it with more care".
What was the point of bringing you into a discussion and an event you have no control over?
(that said, I agree this was probably a 'worst case scenario, what I'd want' type thing from your SIL, even though in the same situation I'd be devastated too)
posted by geek anachronism at 6:35 PM on June 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
Really glad you made it through.
I think the rationale MeghanC and others have described is probably what your SIL was thinking about, with a heavy heart, no doubt; she was more than likely thinking about protecting her brother from the in-between outcomes that were possible. (I'm not like DarlingBri; can't easily see myself thinking that way, personally, but I'm sure it's not a way of thinking people come to lightly.) And I agree with Nanukthedog about your husband's likely motivations for telling you.
You've all been through so incredibly much, in different ways. I really hope there's some counselling available, for all of you. I think talking about this in that kind of mediated context would be a good thing. Formal support is important, I think, because a counsellor will have seen guilt and anger and a lot else from all the angles, many times, and could help you understand each other more easily, while this is the first (and hopefully only) time you and your family have faced anything like this.
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:38 PM on June 17, 2015
I think the rationale MeghanC and others have described is probably what your SIL was thinking about, with a heavy heart, no doubt; she was more than likely thinking about protecting her brother from the in-between outcomes that were possible. (I'm not like DarlingBri; can't easily see myself thinking that way, personally, but I'm sure it's not a way of thinking people come to lightly.) And I agree with Nanukthedog about your husband's likely motivations for telling you.
You've all been through so incredibly much, in different ways. I really hope there's some counselling available, for all of you. I think talking about this in that kind of mediated context would be a good thing. Formal support is important, I think, because a counsellor will have seen guilt and anger and a lot else from all the angles, many times, and could help you understand each other more easily, while this is the first (and hopefully only) time you and your family have faced anything like this.
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:38 PM on June 17, 2015
Way too much missing from your question to answer. How old are you and what is your baseline quality of life? What was the illness? What other than death and pulling through could the surgery have left you to deal with? Are you the type of independent person who would feel like a burden if others had to care for you? Could you have, do you need lifelong intensive care? Was there ever any ill-will between yous before? Why did your husband tell you like it was a thing? and on and on with details
But I think the best thing you can go with here is to believe Hanlon's Razor (Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity). I think you SIL either didn't have all the details or was in emotional stress, or probably both, causing a spoken thoughtfart.
posted by WeekendJen at 7:19 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
But I think the best thing you can go with here is to believe Hanlon's Razor (Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity). I think you SIL either didn't have all the details or was in emotional stress, or probably both, causing a spoken thoughtfart.
posted by WeekendJen at 7:19 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have had family in the hospital, and recently my spouse's family - with lots of visiting and various people sending out "reports" and "updates" and whatnot. On top of people tend to say some really stupid shit when a friend or relative is in the hospital, I can also attest to the fact that you can have multiple people in the same room, at the same time, listening to the same nurse give the same update and that evening get 2 or 3 VERY different - like, crazy different - reports. It was nuts. Not only do people say dumb stuff, but they have their own views and prior experiences AND their own (emotional, intellectual) limits to understanding what the nurse is saying. (Like, one person was sending out "facts" that were just wrong.) Various relatives were in various states of emotional distress, sleep deprivation, etc. On top of that, nurses and doctors communicate differently too, so once you have upset sleep-deprived people visiting at different times and talking to different staff members it turns into a hot mess almost immediately.
He shouldn't have told you. Assume the best intentions and try to let it go. (My bet is that she didn't understand all the details of what was going on and what the options and likely outcomes were.)
And yay, it worked?!? Congrats!!
posted by jrobin276 at 7:39 PM on June 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
He shouldn't have told you. Assume the best intentions and try to let it go. (My bet is that she didn't understand all the details of what was going on and what the options and likely outcomes were.)
And yay, it worked?!? Congrats!!
posted by jrobin276 at 7:39 PM on June 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Just pull her aside, tell her how this knowledge of what she said made you feel and ask her any questions you think are necessary.
If she's contrite, hug it out. If she isn't, get a t-shirt made that says "still alive, bitch"and wear it whenever the mood suits you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:58 PM on June 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
If she's contrite, hug it out. If she isn't, get a t-shirt made that says "still alive, bitch"and wear it whenever the mood suits you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:58 PM on June 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Mod note: From the OP:
"I appreciate all of the great feedback and will follow my own rule of "if you are not sure if you should do something,it is better not to" and not say anything. At least for now.posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 9:02 PM on June 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
When this happened, my SIL did not freely offer this up to my husband. He saw her pulling aside several of the ICU nurses and having private conversations with them. It was only when he pressed her pretty hard for what she was talking to them about, that she told him it was that she thought I should be taken off my ventilator and left to die. That is why i don't think it can be written off as something stupid said a the wrong time.
I do not have an adversarial relationship with my SIL, however, I am guarded when I am around her. My SIL has a history of doing some very malicious things to the family which I won't detail but has caused great damage to several individuals including a couple of their family pets. In many ways, she reminds me of the charater Kathy Bates played in the movie Misery. Seems kind by external appearances but she has a very.dark.side.
My husband and I do have living wills so she has no power to influence decisions in our matters. I know my husband told me only to reinforce she cannot be trusted. Especially in light of the fact that his parents are very elderly and she could have an influence in decisions affecting them in the future. He wants me to be very aware of what she is capable of.
Thanks for all of your input and advice. I do appreciate it. And I plan to follow the best advice several of you have offered up to live life and live it well.
What an illuminating update. Stay away from her. She sounds monstrous. I'm so sorry you have to deal with someone like this. Live well. Live long. Live without a person like this in your life.
posted by quince at 9:15 PM on June 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by quince at 9:15 PM on June 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
I have a friend who has severe PTSD, to the point where he has attemped suicide at least once.
One of the things that helped him the most, surprisingly, was a dear friend telling him she understood if he felt that he could not keep fighting, and that if he truly did feel like he could no longer summon the will to keep on going, she would support him 100%. Having that, he says, relieved some of the guilt and misery he felt re: his percieved 'failure' to deal with his trauma.
It's possible that your SIL is coming from the same place - basically trying to let your husband/family know that it's okay to not go on fighting, that sometimes letting someone die is the most humane, loving thing you can do for them. Sometimes stress means that people say things awkwardly; I would give your SIL the benefit of the doubt and assume she was trying to be supportive during a very difficult time.
posted by Tamanna at 9:16 PM on June 17, 2015
One of the things that helped him the most, surprisingly, was a dear friend telling him she understood if he felt that he could not keep fighting, and that if he truly did feel like he could no longer summon the will to keep on going, she would support him 100%. Having that, he says, relieved some of the guilt and misery he felt re: his percieved 'failure' to deal with his trauma.
It's possible that your SIL is coming from the same place - basically trying to let your husband/family know that it's okay to not go on fighting, that sometimes letting someone die is the most humane, loving thing you can do for them. Sometimes stress means that people say things awkwardly; I would give your SIL the benefit of the doubt and assume she was trying to be supportive during a very difficult time.
posted by Tamanna at 9:16 PM on June 17, 2015
... Just saw your update. Never mind, I take all of that back, stay the hell away from this woman and for the love of God make sure you have your living will and all other paperwork sorted out ASAP.
posted by Tamanna at 9:17 PM on June 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Tamanna at 9:17 PM on June 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
To which I would also add, for your own peace of mind, lock things down so she doesn't have power of attorney over your in-laws' health decisions, either. She sounds like a piece of work. And as someone anticipating a similar situation coming up in her family life, I don't envy you. Glad you made it through ok, and good luck!
posted by bitter-girl.com at 9:36 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by bitter-girl.com at 9:36 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I would pull her aside and whisper, "I can't wait until the shoe is on the other foot."
posted by komara at 9:37 PM on June 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by komara at 9:37 PM on June 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's funny because I read the update, and it sounds like she wasn't pressuring your husband at all but educating herself by asking the proffessionals directly involved in your care for realistic, off the record information about possible outcomes of the procedure. Maybe a few of them told her horror stories? Maybe she was more concerned about her brother in that instance than you?
Anyway, he pushed her for her opinion and she gave it. It sounds sort of like you think she was conspiring with the hospital staff, trying to shift the tide against you.
I never see a value in turning shit like this into higher drama than necessary. Is she an ongoing threat to your existence? Maybe put it behind you.
posted by bonobothegreat at 10:24 PM on June 17, 2015 [17 favorites]
Anyway, he pushed her for her opinion and she gave it. It sounds sort of like you think she was conspiring with the hospital staff, trying to shift the tide against you.
I never see a value in turning shit like this into higher drama than necessary. Is she an ongoing threat to your existence? Maybe put it behind you.
posted by bonobothegreat at 10:24 PM on June 17, 2015 [17 favorites]
When this happened, my SIL did not freely offer this up to my husband. He saw her pulling aside several of the ICU nurses and having private conversations with them. It was only when he pressed her pretty hard for what she was talking to them about, that she told him it was that she thought I should be taken off my ventilator and left to die.
Sadly, nurses can be rather bleak in their expectations of patient recovery. I say this as a nurse. We see too many poor outcomes, even in the young that we tend to expect the worst. This isn't always the best way to approach serious situations, especially in the young.
This happened with my family when my mother developed Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. My sister and I are both nurses. She arrived at the hospital first, and had spoken with the nursing staff.
Before the Doctor even had the chance to discuss her treatment options, my sister was discussing with my mother what she wanted done with her things, Code status, and funeral arrangements.
Four years later my mother is still alive and doing very well. But my sister is no longer her healthcare representative. We don't discuss the pain it caused, but it is still there. No one wants a blow up.
Her actions HAD to have hurt your husband terribly. I don't know if he had been disturbed by her behavior before your illness, but he certainly is now.
Sometimes there is a family member that decides to be the "voice of reality". Especially if they believe they have "inside" information. There can power in being the bearer of bad tidings, being the practical one. I don't think she thought of ending life support as killing you, because in her mind you were already dead. This still bothers me, and I think you are correct in keeping your distance. Trust your instincts. And use your previous experiences to guide you.
Bless you and your family, your recovery is wonderful and I wish you the best of everything.
posted by moonlily at 11:01 PM on June 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
Sadly, nurses can be rather bleak in their expectations of patient recovery. I say this as a nurse. We see too many poor outcomes, even in the young that we tend to expect the worst. This isn't always the best way to approach serious situations, especially in the young.
This happened with my family when my mother developed Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. My sister and I are both nurses. She arrived at the hospital first, and had spoken with the nursing staff.
Before the Doctor even had the chance to discuss her treatment options, my sister was discussing with my mother what she wanted done with her things, Code status, and funeral arrangements.
Four years later my mother is still alive and doing very well. But my sister is no longer her healthcare representative. We don't discuss the pain it caused, but it is still there. No one wants a blow up.
Her actions HAD to have hurt your husband terribly. I don't know if he had been disturbed by her behavior before your illness, but he certainly is now.
Sometimes there is a family member that decides to be the "voice of reality". Especially if they believe they have "inside" information. There can power in being the bearer of bad tidings, being the practical one. I don't think she thought of ending life support as killing you, because in her mind you were already dead. This still bothers me, and I think you are correct in keeping your distance. Trust your instincts. And use your previous experiences to guide you.
Bless you and your family, your recovery is wonderful and I wish you the best of everything.
posted by moonlily at 11:01 PM on June 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
Wow. I'm so sorry you went through that kind of terrifying health crisis and am glad you're out the other side and back on mefi.
If you're going to see this woman at some kind of family function, be as civil and professional as possible. Do not bring this up to her; do not cause drama with her. Your goal right now is going to be keeping this dangerous, animal-abusing, disturbed person out of your life as much as you possibly can. Trust your instincts and disengage. You probably want to talk through a plan of action with your husband. Everyone saying your husband should have just hushed this up for tact's sake, hoping she was just socially inept, was working off incomplete information-- it sounds like he told you this because he was seriously troubled by his sister's behavior and thought you two would need to deal with this. The status quo of the sister being accepted by the family and allowed to mill around the ICU trying to influence nursing staff is completely unacceptable; you guys might have to start laying hard boundaries with the rest of his family, who have been enabling her behavior, as well.
As for this weekend, you don't need to see her if you don't feel comfortable around her-- you're still recovering from a major medical emergency, and it's ultimately his responsibility to protect you from his toxic family.
Best wishes with your recovery, so glad to hear you are OK, and please stay safe.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 11:23 PM on June 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
If you're going to see this woman at some kind of family function, be as civil and professional as possible. Do not bring this up to her; do not cause drama with her. Your goal right now is going to be keeping this dangerous, animal-abusing, disturbed person out of your life as much as you possibly can. Trust your instincts and disengage. You probably want to talk through a plan of action with your husband. Everyone saying your husband should have just hushed this up for tact's sake, hoping she was just socially inept, was working off incomplete information-- it sounds like he told you this because he was seriously troubled by his sister's behavior and thought you two would need to deal with this. The status quo of the sister being accepted by the family and allowed to mill around the ICU trying to influence nursing staff is completely unacceptable; you guys might have to start laying hard boundaries with the rest of his family, who have been enabling her behavior, as well.
As for this weekend, you don't need to see her if you don't feel comfortable around her-- you're still recovering from a major medical emergency, and it's ultimately his responsibility to protect you from his toxic family.
Best wishes with your recovery, so glad to hear you are OK, and please stay safe.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 11:23 PM on June 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
I second bleep.
That said, maybe think twice about having her dog-sit when you guys go out of town.
posted by blueberry at 11:56 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
That said, maybe think twice about having her dog-sit when you guys go out of town.
posted by blueberry at 11:56 PM on June 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
My goodness, this new information changes everything. I concur with what has been said by everyone since your update and also would add to make sure in whatever way is possible that this woman has no power of attorney over your husband's parents. If they were aware and dismayed by her comments, this may already be taken care of but best check to be sure.
posted by Jubey at 12:02 AM on June 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 12:02 AM on June 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yikes, yeah, I hadn't seen your update either... I guess if you can't not see her this weekend, just say Hi and then see something you have to do somewhere else...? And if you have children who are old enough, it's probably a good time to take them aside and just let them know where exactly she stands on the trust-worthiness scale.
posted by blueberry at 12:10 AM on June 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by blueberry at 12:10 AM on June 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
The update completely changes the question... stay the hell away from SIL. I would not mention this and would continue being civil but distant and guarded.
posted by chickenmagazine at 2:37 AM on June 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by chickenmagazine at 2:37 AM on June 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Is there any upside to saying anything? If she's that mich of a piece of work, it won't clear the air. She'll admit to nothing and there will be painful drama for you to wade through.
Can you and your husband agree on a way to keep a distance to her? She's toxic.
posted by Omnomnom at 3:08 AM on June 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
Can you and your husband agree on a way to keep a distance to her? She's toxic.
posted by Omnomnom at 3:08 AM on June 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
holy shit stay the fuuuuck away from her and have as little to do with her as you can
no good can come of it
posted by Sebmojo at 4:39 AM on June 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
no good can come of it
posted by Sebmojo at 4:39 AM on June 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Maybe i'm just a dark asshole, but i had sort of whipped up the scenario your update describes in my head before you even posted that.
I have an aunt like this. I don't really want to super elaborate on it, but it was a similarly shit thing in a trying situation.
Cut her out of your life as much as possible. Just never talk to her again. Maybe wave and say hi if you have to, but don't even bother with any event she'll be at.
It's been almost 15 years since my insert-shit-situation and i still completely avoid my person like that.
Your husband should support you. That is fucking terrifying and bullshit. Both my parents and some other close people know what's up, and support me 100%. Including my dad, and it's his sister.
posted by emptythought at 4:41 AM on June 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
I have an aunt like this. I don't really want to super elaborate on it, but it was a similarly shit thing in a trying situation.
Cut her out of your life as much as possible. Just never talk to her again. Maybe wave and say hi if you have to, but don't even bother with any event she'll be at.
It's been almost 15 years since my insert-shit-situation and i still completely avoid my person like that.
Your husband should support you. That is fucking terrifying and bullshit. Both my parents and some other close people know what's up, and support me 100%. Including my dad, and it's his sister.
posted by emptythought at 4:41 AM on June 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
So I read your update, and I don't see any reason to talk to her. She likes to cause trouble, why let her know she's upset you at all? There's no real relationship to repair. Just tell her how happy you were that the family was so supportive during that difficult time and continue not to give her any room in your lives.
posted by jeather at 5:29 AM on June 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by jeather at 5:29 AM on June 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
If you have good reason to think your SIL is a covert psychopath who is trying to fucking kill you, then don't interact with her ever again.
FFS.
I mean if the rest of the family is just kind of used to the idea that "SIL is a bit of a serial killer, yeah, it's just the way she is" you don't have to take your cues from them.
Obviously don't make an explicit fuss that she could leverage against you, but for goodness sake do not be in her presence especially if you are the least bit physically vulnerable.
posted by tel3path at 6:08 AM on June 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
FFS.
I mean if the rest of the family is just kind of used to the idea that "SIL is a bit of a serial killer, yeah, it's just the way she is" you don't have to take your cues from them.
Obviously don't make an explicit fuss that she could leverage against you, but for goodness sake do not be in her presence especially if you are the least bit physically vulnerable.
posted by tel3path at 6:08 AM on June 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
I would never, in a million years, confront a Kathy Bates with something like this.
Good on your husband for telling you! Even without your update, I suspected he had a very good reason for dropping a bomb like that.
Smile, nod, be on your best behavior, and guarded as all hell when you are around her.
Best of luck to you! And sending get well vibes :)
posted by Neekee at 6:24 AM on June 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Good on your husband for telling you! Even without your update, I suspected he had a very good reason for dropping a bomb like that.
Smile, nod, be on your best behavior, and guarded as all hell when you are around her.
Best of luck to you! And sending get well vibes :)
posted by Neekee at 6:24 AM on June 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Um. While we don't know your specific issues, we all now have a much firmer understanding that your SIL has a plethora of them.
Simple rules:
1. No one should ever be left with her.
2. She should not be allowed access to medical care information for you or your husband. Specifically, you need to make sure that hospital staff does not have permission to discuss conditions, care, and outcome with her.
3. Regarding your elderly in-laws, you may want to find out who has the power of attorney for their healthcare decisions, in the event that they are both incappacitated. More importantly, you may want to advise them to exclude her from the same information, and that may mean having a frank and honest conversation about your experience.
With that said, I have some direct experience with an aunt that is a hospice nurse who likely suffers from Munchaussen's syndrome. First she inserted herself between her 90+ year old father and her stepmother with Alzheimer's. To the point where my grandma barred her from the house and everyone thought that she did it because of the Alzheimer's. Then, 10 months later the aunt inserted herself between my mother and father when my dad had cancer. Similarly, my mom shipped her back home because she was doing crazy things. For reals. I get this kind of crazy.
posted by Nanukthedog at 7:04 AM on June 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
Simple rules:
1. No one should ever be left with her.
2. She should not be allowed access to medical care information for you or your husband. Specifically, you need to make sure that hospital staff does not have permission to discuss conditions, care, and outcome with her.
3. Regarding your elderly in-laws, you may want to find out who has the power of attorney for their healthcare decisions, in the event that they are both incappacitated. More importantly, you may want to advise them to exclude her from the same information, and that may mean having a frank and honest conversation about your experience.
With that said, I have some direct experience with an aunt that is a hospice nurse who likely suffers from Munchaussen's syndrome. First she inserted herself between her 90+ year old father and her stepmother with Alzheimer's. To the point where my grandma barred her from the house and everyone thought that she did it because of the Alzheimer's. Then, 10 months later the aunt inserted herself between my mother and father when my dad had cancer. Similarly, my mom shipped her back home because she was doing crazy things. For reals. I get this kind of crazy.
posted by Nanukthedog at 7:04 AM on June 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
While I'm willing to accept that OP's SIL is something of a spooky semi-psycho, I'm getting a strong vibe of indignation and anger from OP's update. I think OP should avoid SIL. But I also think OP should seek counseling, maybe for anger issues or PTSD.
(Hospitalization has been known to trigger depression and PTSD (google it); several years ago I had a neighbor come home from relatively simple hernia surgery with a major case of depression, which ended in suicide. Other people in this thread have already suggested therapy - I'm Nthing that suggestion).
posted by doctor tough love at 7:19 AM on June 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
(Hospitalization has been known to trigger depression and PTSD (google it); several years ago I had a neighbor come home from relatively simple hernia surgery with a major case of depression, which ended in suicide. Other people in this thread have already suggested therapy - I'm Nthing that suggestion).
posted by doctor tough love at 7:19 AM on June 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
Hi. Congrats. Welcome back to existence. The re-birthday club, we are small but strong.
There's a lot of great perspectives for you to think about above, for how to think about and handle her. Myself, I like Cold Chef's suggestion a lot.
The idea that always guides me towards a way to handle things when other perspectives don't is: how do I want to look back on this in 5 years? Do I want to have taken the high road, maintained polite but verrrrry distant, or are you OK with calling her out on the carpet and letting whatever falls out, be what may? Do I want to set myself up for having to handle continuing very hard feelings -- justifiable, but maybe not worth the work it causes me? Do I want to have just iced her out, and in 5 years that block of ice is set and frozen? Do I want to treat her like an other/alien, and in 5 years, just a distant stranger? My driving force is: what will I have to deal with in 5 years, what will make MY life easier and more peaceful. Because it's my life -- it's all about me, and this person deserves no further thought in how I handle it.
Almost dying is a real trip. Thinking about how things very realistically could have gone, but for pure luck -- there's no guidance for it. I know -- I woke up on a respirator with a very damaged body. It's really almost impossible to mentally travel the parallel possibilities that were very real and even likely.
In my case, Something happened with my mother (who is well known self-absorbed drama queen already) and my SO at the hospital, while I was out, that permanently changed his view of her. He hasn't filled me in. I'm fine with that.
Your point of view on this will continue to evolve as you gain life and distance from it. Some people do get medical PTSD -- be aware of that possibility. Having a second chance on life is really perspective-altering -- you get to really choose how you want to do it, you're starting over. Maybe you won't even care that she wanted to pull the plug, in a year, because you've moved so far on past it. Maybe it is a reason to purge bad people from your life. Your choice! But focus on you. She isn't worth the mental space.
posted by Dashy at 7:26 AM on June 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
There's a lot of great perspectives for you to think about above, for how to think about and handle her. Myself, I like Cold Chef's suggestion a lot.
The idea that always guides me towards a way to handle things when other perspectives don't is: how do I want to look back on this in 5 years? Do I want to have taken the high road, maintained polite but verrrrry distant, or are you OK with calling her out on the carpet and letting whatever falls out, be what may? Do I want to set myself up for having to handle continuing very hard feelings -- justifiable, but maybe not worth the work it causes me? Do I want to have just iced her out, and in 5 years that block of ice is set and frozen? Do I want to treat her like an other/alien, and in 5 years, just a distant stranger? My driving force is: what will I have to deal with in 5 years, what will make MY life easier and more peaceful. Because it's my life -- it's all about me, and this person deserves no further thought in how I handle it.
Almost dying is a real trip. Thinking about how things very realistically could have gone, but for pure luck -- there's no guidance for it. I know -- I woke up on a respirator with a very damaged body. It's really almost impossible to mentally travel the parallel possibilities that were very real and even likely.
In my case, Something happened with my mother (who is well known self-absorbed drama queen already) and my SO at the hospital, while I was out, that permanently changed his view of her. He hasn't filled me in. I'm fine with that.
Your point of view on this will continue to evolve as you gain life and distance from it. Some people do get medical PTSD -- be aware of that possibility. Having a second chance on life is really perspective-altering -- you get to really choose how you want to do it, you're starting over. Maybe you won't even care that she wanted to pull the plug, in a year, because you've moved so far on past it. Maybe it is a reason to purge bad people from your life. Your choice! But focus on you. She isn't worth the mental space.
posted by Dashy at 7:26 AM on June 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'll be honest, this still sounds a bit overblown to me, but, it obviously isn't to you. Given how you're feeling, I think the appropriate response here is to take legal steps to ensure she can never become your guardian/make medical decisions on your behalf and thank your lucky stars that you know what an awful person she is now.
posted by zug at 4:54 PM on June 18, 2015
posted by zug at 4:54 PM on June 18, 2015
Before the update, I had one foot in the camp of "You give people a pass for stupid shit said under trying circumstances" and one foot in the camp of "Yeah, don't ever trust this person with anything important." I kind of still do.
I think jayder has the best answer: bow out of this meeting on grounds of "I am not adequately recovered." This is heavy shit. Ms. Manners style advice doesn't really apply. You either bring it up when you can really wrestle it to the ground and do some serious sorting with this person or you play your cards close to your chest and tuck this away as useful intelligence on someone you can never trust. Either way, this is way too much drama to face right now. Don't go.
posted by Michele in California at 5:59 PM on June 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think jayder has the best answer: bow out of this meeting on grounds of "I am not adequately recovered." This is heavy shit. Ms. Manners style advice doesn't really apply. You either bring it up when you can really wrestle it to the ground and do some serious sorting with this person or you play your cards close to your chest and tuck this away as useful intelligence on someone you can never trust. Either way, this is way too much drama to face right now. Don't go.
posted by Michele in California at 5:59 PM on June 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
It kind of depends on whether you really liked her and are now deeply hurt or whether you were merely polite to each other or whether she was always a jerk.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:53 PM on June 17, 2015