Game of Thrones Question
June 2, 2015 8:14 PM   Subscribe

This question has to do with a theory about Game of Thrones that is pretty popular, but not well known to all, so spoilers follow.

I'll even keep it vague in case others aren't aware. The question is this: If the R+L=J theory is true, what are the implications for John Snow's place in the world? Despite it being a pretty interesting plot twist on everything that created an incredible domino effect throughout the world that R+L happened in the first place, does this change John's claim to anything? Does it give him any possible claim of the throne (setting aside his vow to the black for a moment), for example, not just from a Targaryan perspective and being related to Daenerys, but also being from Westeros? Or does it not matter at all since the throne was conquered and the "rightful" family line supplanted by Robert Baratheon? In other words, what angle can be played if this theory is true, besides being interesting?
posted by SpacemanStix to Media & Arts (28 answers total) 7 users marked this as a favorite
 
Response by poster: Sorry, Jon Snow.
posted by SpacemanStix at 8:15 PM on June 2, 2015


Best answer: Well, taking a look at the story of R+L, we have a reference to R looking at his children and stating they were not enough prior to getting with L. Now, the creation story of House Targaryan is that King Aegon I married his two sisters and that the blood is "concentrated". You potentially have Jon and Daenerys founding a new kingdom or re-establishing the dynasty, if we follow a traditional arc. In Westeros, you can re-write the history as needed by the winner. Might makes right, brutally.

This comes from reading the books YEARS ago, but I am sure others will chime in.
posted by jadepearl at 8:24 PM on June 2, 2015


Best answer: I'll assume you're not concerned about spoilers yourself. We had a good discussion about bastardy and succession rights in a FanFare thread last season.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 8:27 PM on June 2, 2015


Best answer: Despite it being a pretty interesting plot twist on everything that created an incredible domino effect throughout the world that R+L happened in the first place, does this change John's claim to anything? Does it give him any possible claim of the throne (setting aside his vow to the black for a moment), for example, not just from a Targaryan perspective and being related to Daenerys, but also being from Westeros?

If he wants to claim it and can get both supporters and proof, and if he was a legitimate child of some kind of polygamous marriage between R+L, then yes, he technically has the best claim to the throne of anyone except possibly-fake-Aegon if possibly-fake turns out to be actually-real, since Aegon would be Jon's older brother. Under Andal law, which is pretty clearly the common law of Westeros, inheritance follows male-preference cognatic primogeniture, and since Jon and Aegon come through a male line that has precedence over Danaerys, they're both ahead of her, assuming that they're both legitimate in the respective senses.

But the technical legitimacy of all three of the Targaryen Teenagers over Stannis and Shireen doesn't actually matter because power is a shadow on the wall.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 8:34 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: But the technical legitimacy of all three of the Targaryen Teenagers over Stannis and Shireen doesn't actually matter because power is a shadow on the wall.

Yeah, it does make wonder if in a "might makes the king" universe at the end of the day, if the biggest implication might just be some sort of an interesting alliance between Jon and Daenerys, where as of right now she thinks she is the last of her family line. Jon as warden of the north (already hinted at on the show, but turned down; don't know if that's canon) and with Daenerys and her dragons, they could make a move that has both power and popular support, which Tyrion alluded to as being pretty important in this last TV episode (don't know if that's canon, either). Of course, Jon would have to somehow not be committed to his vows, but who knows.

Welp, I didn't intend to turn this into chatfilter, but those are some helpful things to think about. Thanks!
posted by SpacemanStix at 8:39 PM on June 2, 2015


Best answer: Oh, and I honestly don't remember if the show did the Robb's Will plot device, but barring that wrinkle, being L's son, legitimate or otherwise, doesn't change Jon's place in the Winterfell succession either. I guess technically it moves him behind "himself" as Ned's bastard (if he wasn't legitimate) or possibly ahead of "himself" (if he was), since Benjen and Brandon didn't have any kids.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 8:45 PM on June 2, 2015


Best answer: Since only magically intensified fire can defeat the Others, and only the Targaryens can properly wield that fire, they are the natural rulers regardless of any other claims to the throne.
posted by jamjam at 8:55 PM on June 2, 2015 [7 favorites]


Best answer: Isn't any possible "legalistic" claim trumped by the fact that he's a member of the Night's Watch and therefore cannot hold lands or titles? After all, this is precisely why Aemon Targaryen became the Maester of Castle Black -- so he could not be used as leverage by anyone opposing his younger brother, Aegon.

Jon Snow could have had a claim. But he forfeited it, even if he didn't know he was forfeiting it at the time.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:22 PM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


Best answer: might makes the king

On the surface, "might is right" means that legitimacy is just window dressing, however if you look at historical cases of usurpation, having a claim that can at least be argued as legitimate has two advantages:

1) It can get you the might - a legitimate claim can focus enough otherwise disorganised allies into a force sufficient to overcome the incumbent.

2) Once you have overcome, being able to make a claim of legitimacy helps to keep the population in line.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 9:29 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Best answer: I'm not sure if you're just looking for the inheritance answers, but here are a couple of other plot points that could come up if it's true:

In Dany's vision of Rhaegar (that jadepearl is talking about), he mentions "the dragon has three heads", which is sometimes taken to mean that they need three Targaryens to ride the three dragons - if Jon is a Targaryen, he could be one of the riders.

Also mentioned in that vision, there's a prophecy about "The prince that was promised"(/Azor Ahai). If Jon is R+L then he could be this prince (this is a pretty popular theory).
posted by the agents of KAOS at 9:40 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: Isn't any possible "legalistic" claim trumped by the fact that he's a member of the Night's Watch and therefore cannot hold lands or titles?

This show has had a lot of "screw that rule" situations going on more once, but I do wonder. Anything that happens would have to be unconventional, along the lines of Daenerys now saying she wants to "break" the wheel, rather than playing the old games where everyone is simply a spoke.
posted by SpacemanStix at 9:49 PM on June 2, 2015


As a parallel point, although Tyrion's pointed out that Daenerys had no allies in Westeros, Varys was banking his long game on the idea that a legit Targaryen ruler would rally allies to their side. Indeed, this is the reason he kept tabs on Daenerys all along.

If Varys was counting on tradition carrying the day for Daenerys, then Jon Snow would have to work against that tradition if he made a play for himself.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:27 PM on June 2, 2015


Isn't there also the question of dragons? I mean so far the show and book have made quite explicit that Danaerys is remarkable and unique in being able to survive dragon fire and approach and to some extent control/communicate with the dragons. If Jon Snow turns out to also have the equivalent nuclear codes, he (and any child he sires) becomes immediately an equivalent threat/power to her - and given that she is possibly sterile, even more powerful.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:28 PM on June 2, 2015


I don't think Jon Snow can be a true Targaryen: he was shown to be injured by fire in Season 1, after defending then-Lord Commander Mormont from the wight attack. For the theory to be true (for Dany's survival of Drogo's funeral pyre to be consistent with being a Targaryen) the writers would need to rewrite parts of the show's canon.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:32 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


She's fullblooded, right, sister and brother intermarriage? Or would she be the same genetic Targeryean mix as him? Because in the books, she's always had a very high tolerance for heat - the hot water at near-boiling, but it hasn't been remarked that she's unscathed by fire entirely, except with the pyre that involved the dragon eggs specifically. Also, there's been that line about the wildfire and magic in general increasing hugely in power since the dragons woke up, so could his (mild) fire-injury be pre-dragon awakening?

I would still have it as plausible that Jon's Targaryen heritage gives him a dragon-connection. He's got the ability to warg though, so that might be where they're headed, that he will warg into a dragon at some point.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:21 PM on June 2, 2015


Response by poster: If he wants to claim it and can get both supporters and proof

Is there anyone left alive who has this proof? What could the reveal look like?
posted by SpacemanStix at 11:55 PM on June 2, 2015


> What could the reveal look like?

Jon marries Dany for political reasons.

They have lots of kids.

Half the kids are blonde and purple-eyed.
posted by Phssthpok at 12:05 AM on June 3, 2015


Is there anyone left alive who has this proof? What could the reveal look like?

Howland Reed was at the Tower of Joy and was the only other survivor with Eddard Stark.
It's speculated that Lyanna was buried with a Targaryen wedding cloak.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:10 AM on June 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


What could the reveal look like?

Howland Reed appearing, as the man of twists and turns says. Bran using a weirwood tree to look into the past and seeing it. Varys knows everything else so he probably knows this...

CPB: Isn't any possible "legalistic" claim trumped by the fact that he's a member of the Night's Watch and therefore cannot hold lands or titles?

There's a fairly obvious way around this, but it's book-only at the moment. Are you guys OK if I post about something that hasn't happened in the show yet?

a lungful of dragon: I don't think Jon Snow can be a true Targaryen

There's really a huge amount of evidence that he is, but the clincher for me is that GRRM agreed to let D&D adapt ASOIAF when they told him who Jon's mother was. That could only mean R+L. In the books, several characters name different women as Jon's mother, and there's nothing to suggest which is the correct one. D&D must have worked out that it was Lyanna, from the textual clues.
posted by Pink Frost at 12:58 AM on June 3, 2015 [4 favorites]


If R+L=J isn't true then GRRM is a shitty writer, honestly. It's implied in the text very very strongly and that was before the show heavily foreshadowed it this season.

My theory, honestly, is that Jon and Dany will break the wheel, whether intentionally or not. Jon is clearly aware that what matters is not the game of thrones but the fight for survival against the white walkers, so I'm not sure claims are relevant. He's not going to be King, though he might rule (before he dies spectacularly in the final battle against the zombie army or something).
posted by lydhre at 5:47 AM on June 3, 2015


I don't think Jon Snow can be a true Targaryen: he was shown to be injured by fire in Season 1

Whether or not this affects show canon, GRRM has said that Dany surviving the fire was a one time magical event, not an inherent ability of Targaryens.
posted by ocherdraco at 7:42 AM on June 3, 2015 [4 favorites]


If R+L=J isn't true then GRRM is a shitty writer, honestly. It's implied in the text very very strongly and that was before the show heavily foreshadowed it this season.

My theory, honestly, is that Jon and Dany will break the wheel, whether intentionally or not. Jon is clearly aware that what matters is not the game of thrones but the fight for survival against the white walkers, so I'm not sure claims are relevant. He's not going to be King, though he might rule (before he dies spectacularly in the final battle against the zombie army or something).


Yeah, but like, GRRM has a way of setting up everything that points to a really tidy package or resolution, and then right before the characters achieve it, the important person to it all is stabbed in the kidneys and dies in the mud somewhere and the same bullshit keeps on keeping on.
posted by entropone at 7:47 AM on June 3, 2015


Isn't any possible "legalistic" claim trumped by the fact that he's a member of the Night's Watch and therefore cannot hold lands or titles? After all, this is precisely why Aemon Targaryen became the Maester of Castle Black -- so he could not be used as leverage by anyone opposing his younger brother, Aegon.

Jon Snow could have had a claim. But he forfeited it, even if he didn't know he was forfeiting it at the time.


But if Dany shows up with her dragons, and the Others are completely defeated and the Wildlings are on the Westeros side of the wall, then there no longer remains a need for the Night's Watch.

And now our watch is ended. EVERYONE GO HOME BYEEEEEEE!!!
posted by elsietheeel at 9:01 AM on June 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


Whether or not this affects show canon, GRRM has said that Dany surviving the fire was a one time magical event, not an inherent ability of Targaryens.

I think the show mentioned Aerion Brightflame and his wildfire drinking onscreen at some point, and it's definitely in the DVD supplements that have books-influenced background history information, plus we see Maester Aegon be cremated onscreen and it's confirmed that's the Targaryen way. Seems safe enough to assume book canon = show canon in terms of Targs and fire mixing perfectly well.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 11:09 AM on June 3, 2015


It's also canon that Maester Aemon could have been released from his vows if he'd wanted to be, once enough people had died improbably that it was him or Aegon the Unlikely for the throne, but he refused. And Jon's been offered legitimacy and Winterfell. Vows are vows until someone important decides they're not.
posted by corvine at 1:07 PM on June 3, 2015


Isn't any possible "legalistic" claim trumped by the fact that he's a member of the Night's Watch and therefore cannot hold lands or titles?

Until he dies, and then his watch is ended.

Now if he were to die and then be resurrected... ;)
posted by Jacqueline at 2:40 PM on June 3, 2015 [3 favorites]


That's true about Aemon, but I'm not sure comparing the Maester vows to the NW vows in terms of stickiness actually works, given that Aemon joined the NW specifically so he couldn't be used to undermine Egg's legitimacy. Releasing people from NW vows also sets a very different precedent than letting Maesters be released to go hold titles, since it's part military order and part prison.

Also, show vs books and I'm not even 100% about this, but I think Baelor the Blessed was actually a Septon and not just a lay crazy, and still got to be King.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 2:43 PM on June 3, 2015


You're right, I was forgetting he didn't take the black until after that incident.
posted by corvine at 2:49 PM on June 3, 2015


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