Tiling floor and walls in a small bathroom - help me do it well
May 31, 2015 10:41 PM
I will soon be re-tiling the floor and walls of my small bathroom, after having a new subfloor installed, and old tiles removed and walls plastered. This is my first time tiling more than small mosaics for fun, and I want to hear your guidance, horror stories, and hard-learned lessons.
The setup: the bathroom in my 1926 2nd(3rd) floor flat is roughly 3m long x 1.5m wide, with an inbuilt bathtub and side-centered faucet with external shower hardware, a washing machine hookup at the far end, and at the end opposite the door, a tall tilting window with a small (60x70 cm) radiator beneath it, and on the wall opposite the tub, a wall-mounted sink. The old tiles are coming out, the floor is going to be replaced with a new subfloor to start from, and I'm going to tile the two long walls and the floor.
Wall plan: White subway tiles, bordered with black, down the length of both walls -- to a height of 1.5m above the rim of the bathtub on that side of the room, and roughly 1m on the sink side, and no tiles on the exterior wall with the window and radiator. The untiled parts will be smooth plaster so I can paint it colors to change the decor.
Floor plan: I don't have the money for it right now, but in a year or two I may have the floors ripped up in the whole flat, insulated (as we learned when the bathroom floor was open, apparently there is no insulation in there at all -- sorry, downstairs neighbor!), and have floor heating installed, replacing the radiators. So I need to replace the floor, but I don't care how nice it looks beyond "functional and basically level" since it might just get ripped up next summer. The plan there is to buy the cheapest dark-grey floor tiles I can, and install those. (€10/m2, come to mama!)
I'm specifically curious about these items:
Thanks!
The setup: the bathroom in my 1926 2nd(3rd) floor flat is roughly 3m long x 1.5m wide, with an inbuilt bathtub and side-centered faucet with external shower hardware, a washing machine hookup at the far end, and at the end opposite the door, a tall tilting window with a small (60x70 cm) radiator beneath it, and on the wall opposite the tub, a wall-mounted sink. The old tiles are coming out, the floor is going to be replaced with a new subfloor to start from, and I'm going to tile the two long walls and the floor.
Wall plan: White subway tiles, bordered with black, down the length of both walls -- to a height of 1.5m above the rim of the bathtub on that side of the room, and roughly 1m on the sink side, and no tiles on the exterior wall with the window and radiator. The untiled parts will be smooth plaster so I can paint it colors to change the decor.
Floor plan: I don't have the money for it right now, but in a year or two I may have the floors ripped up in the whole flat, insulated (as we learned when the bathroom floor was open, apparently there is no insulation in there at all -- sorry, downstairs neighbor!), and have floor heating installed, replacing the radiators. So I need to replace the floor, but I don't care how nice it looks beyond "functional and basically level" since it might just get ripped up next summer. The plan there is to buy the cheapest dark-grey floor tiles I can, and install those. (€10/m2, come to mama!)
I'm specifically curious about these items:
- Can I totally avoid having to use a wet saw (tiny apartment, noise concerns for my poor neighbors)? It seems like it should be possible to just use a manual tilecutter for straight cuts and maybe a handcutter for notching?
- For the ledger board, it looks like you just put that up to the height of your first one or two rows of tiles off the bottom, to support them on the level, and then backfill once you're done? Are there gotchas or things I'm missing?
- I plan to do a "dry run" of the tiles to figure out the right layout, before I start going nuts with thinset. Anything I should specifically keep in mind here, other than trying to keep it organized and minimizing the number of cuts?
- What's the best placement of the tiles at floor/wall joins, wall tiles then floor tiles, since floor tiles may have to come back up? Should there be overlap? It sounds like the preference is for wall tiles after floor tiles, so any water/condensate would run down and land on the floor rather than on grout, but does that matter since it's not a tiled shower?
- I plan to run the wall tiles for the full length of the non-bathtub wall, under the cabinets that are to be installed later, but that means there will be a wall depth discrepancy for the tall (192cm) cabinet. Should I have a shim between the cabinet and the plastered wall, to the same depth of the tiles, to prevent moisture from going behind the cabinet, or should I actually not tile behind the cabinet despite it being a total pain to have a gap there if I later want to replace that cabinet?
Thanks!
I did this recently in my shower (floor only):
1: forget about the handcutter for floor tiles, they're way too hard and will break in unexpected places. Also, the subway tiles have a bevel which means you're not applying pressure evenly. I ended up laying a dry run, marking the cuts, numbering them and cutting them in the yard, which worked OK.
2: as a rule of thumb, don't minimize the number of cuts, but work from the middle, especially on small surfaces.
3: since I did only the floor, my options for wall/floor joint were limited. I could slide the tiles under on one side. The waterproof grout seems to be holding out just fine though. I used (NL here too) Eurocol waterproof flexible grout (705 or 706) and thinset (can't recall the number), all available at your local bouwmarkt.
4: I do not agree rongorongo's advice to use bigger tiles: up to 15x15 cm you'd be OK, but as you go bigger than that the flatness requirement for the the plaster or flooring underneath becomes much more stringent.
posted by gijsvs at 1:52 AM on June 1, 2015
1: forget about the handcutter for floor tiles, they're way too hard and will break in unexpected places. Also, the subway tiles have a bevel which means you're not applying pressure evenly. I ended up laying a dry run, marking the cuts, numbering them and cutting them in the yard, which worked OK.
2: as a rule of thumb, don't minimize the number of cuts, but work from the middle, especially on small surfaces.
3: since I did only the floor, my options for wall/floor joint were limited. I could slide the tiles under on one side. The waterproof grout seems to be holding out just fine though. I used (NL here too) Eurocol waterproof flexible grout (705 or 706) and thinset (can't recall the number), all available at your local bouwmarkt.
4: I do not agree rongorongo's advice to use bigger tiles: up to 15x15 cm you'd be OK, but as you go bigger than that the flatness requirement for the the plaster or flooring underneath becomes much more stringent.
posted by gijsvs at 1:52 AM on June 1, 2015
Wet saws aren't very loud, and you're not going to be cutting for hours on end. A little consideration about the time of day when you work should avoid problems with the neighbors.
Tiling, however, is enough work that I think it's foolish to do this if you seriously expect to rip the floors up anytime soon. If that's really the plan then paint the walls, throw down some vinyl and be done with it.
posted by jon1270 at 3:44 AM on June 1, 2015
Tiling, however, is enough work that I think it's foolish to do this if you seriously expect to rip the floors up anytime soon. If that's really the plan then paint the walls, throw down some vinyl and be done with it.
posted by jon1270 at 3:44 AM on June 1, 2015
If you're pulling up the floors later, there will be damage to the wall tile immediately above (maybe one or two rows.) So plan for that and put in a caulk joint rather than grout joint where you're going to be removing lower wall tile. You can make it look intentional by switching to a tile color thet gives a "wall base" effect....perhaps something that goes with your gray floor tile.
The biggest thing to remind yourself is that it takes way longer than you anticipate and to always be patient and do not rush things. You will be way more critical of anything you sit and stare at, wishing you'd done a better job. Don't be afraid to rip up work in process if you'll focus on a mistake for years later.
posted by mightshould at 4:17 AM on June 1, 2015
The biggest thing to remind yourself is that it takes way longer than you anticipate and to always be patient and do not rush things. You will be way more critical of anything you sit and stare at, wishing you'd done a better job. Don't be afraid to rip up work in process if you'll focus on a mistake for years later.
posted by mightshould at 4:17 AM on June 1, 2015
Tiling sucks and so does removing existing tile so if you're going rip up the floor in a year, I wouldn't tile the floor now. Put down the cheap plastic squares. (I just edited my answer to say there's no way in hell I'd put down tile I knew I was going to have to demo in one year.)
Wet saws are awesome but they're loud and messy. Like wear ear protection loud.
Don't rush.
posted by LoveHam at 5:20 AM on June 1, 2015
Wet saws are awesome but they're loud and messy. Like wear ear protection loud.
Don't rush.
posted by LoveHam at 5:20 AM on June 1, 2015
Don't rush.
I offer no specifics except this, which is true for all do-it-yourself work. Putting pressure on yourself to meet an arbitrary deadline is just asking for trouble. Rushing or trying to cut corners will end up taking longer in the end.
posted by The Deej at 6:27 AM on June 1, 2015
I offer no specifics except this, which is true for all do-it-yourself work. Putting pressure on yourself to meet an arbitrary deadline is just asking for trouble. Rushing or trying to cut corners will end up taking longer in the end.
posted by The Deej at 6:27 AM on June 1, 2015
And, as a corollary to the "don't tile if you're going to rip it up in a year" crowd, I offer, "don't do a half-ass job just because you think it's not permanent." Priorities in home projects tend to change over time and you never know when you'll be looking at a temporary fix...forever! I have in my bathroom a very neutral 10x10 tile pattern linoleum. It probably took whoever installed it an hour to put it down. I don't love it but it just fades into the background. If you don't have the floor heat mat installed yet, Marmo or Lino would be warmer than tile.
posted by amanda at 6:45 AM on June 1, 2015
posted by amanda at 6:45 AM on June 1, 2015
Add in the chemicals to make it mold and mildew resistant. Purchase anything and everything that offers that. Always get more grout than you think you will need. Wear the knee pads for floor work. Use the spacers, even if you think you don't need them. Measure everything. And then measure everything again. It will take longer than you think. Have fans ready in case it's a rainy day and things aren't drying fast enough.
Take pictures of the trial run for reference.
posted by myselfasme at 6:58 AM on June 1, 2015
Take pictures of the trial run for reference.
posted by myselfasme at 6:58 AM on June 1, 2015
Consider using cement board instead of drywall in any area which will get wet.
Also, I've always thought that having a floor drain would make cleaning so much easier (hose it out, let it drain).
posted by H21 at 8:31 AM on June 1, 2015
Also, I've always thought that having a floor drain would make cleaning so much easier (hose it out, let it drain).
posted by H21 at 8:31 AM on June 1, 2015
Your floor is not guaranteed to be level. For this reason it is best to not start at the floor and tile up. I see that you are planning to use this trick, which is good. What I have done is measure up two or three tile (plus grout space) lengths on the wall and mark this point. Then, using a level, draw a line around the bathroom. Nail up a piece of straight wood on this line, and use that to lay your first row of tile. When these are set, remove the wood and tile down from the starter row. Use tape to hold the tiles up. If you are putting down the floor after the walls you will be able to hide the small differences, but it is better to not have to trip a small bit from the bottom of the tiles. Tile up from the starter row.
The best way to drill small holes for mounting screws in the tile is to use a masonry nail to make a small starter divot. Then drill with a masonry bit in this spot. This prevents the bit from wandering. For pipes, look for a tile hole saw. Use water to cool the drill bits.
Make sure that before your wall is closed that you have allowed for mounting your fixtures. Add additional 2 x 4s in the wall if necessary. Are you going to install a grab bar? Add mounting wood for that.
posted by Midnight Skulker at 8:57 AM on June 1, 2015
The best way to drill small holes for mounting screws in the tile is to use a masonry nail to make a small starter divot. Then drill with a masonry bit in this spot. This prevents the bit from wandering. For pipes, look for a tile hole saw. Use water to cool the drill bits.
Make sure that before your wall is closed that you have allowed for mounting your fixtures. Add additional 2 x 4s in the wall if necessary. Are you going to install a grab bar? Add mounting wood for that.
posted by Midnight Skulker at 8:57 AM on June 1, 2015
1. I'd advise not to lay tile on a floor you might tear up in a year. While really cheap tile won't break the bank, the tear-out will suck and you'll probably be bummed about the wasted effort.
2. Subfloors deflect when you walk on them. If the deflection is too great, the subfloor is not suitable for tile, because the tile installation will break and come apart. You can determine how much a subfloor will deflect if you have good knowledge of the joist structure under the subfloor, and the composition of the subfloor itself.
2.5. Spoiler alert, you probably can't tile the floor of this room. Modern vinyl can look really nice, and can be made to appear like tile.
3. I highly recommend visiting John Bridge's tile forum, at johnbridge.com. You'll find huge amounts of information, and people with loads of experience who like to hang out there and answer questions. There is also a subfloor deflection calculator. I could not have remodeled my bathrooms without this forum. John also has a book on laying tile, which I found invaluable.
posted by counterfeitfake at 8:05 AM on June 2, 2015
2. Subfloors deflect when you walk on them. If the deflection is too great, the subfloor is not suitable for tile, because the tile installation will break and come apart. You can determine how much a subfloor will deflect if you have good knowledge of the joist structure under the subfloor, and the composition of the subfloor itself.
2.5. Spoiler alert, you probably can't tile the floor of this room. Modern vinyl can look really nice, and can be made to appear like tile.
3. I highly recommend visiting John Bridge's tile forum, at johnbridge.com. You'll find huge amounts of information, and people with loads of experience who like to hang out there and answer questions. There is also a subfloor deflection calculator. I could not have remodeled my bathrooms without this forum. John also has a book on laying tile, which I found invaluable.
posted by counterfeitfake at 8:05 AM on June 2, 2015
1. use the saw. the right tools are really important. I could not imagine tiling with only a hand saw.
2. floor levelness - as others have said, NOT guaranteed. This affects a few things - first you should level your wall tile using preferably a laser level independently of the floor. Second, you need to see how not level your floor is. If it's pretty level (less than 1/2" across the whole floor) you're good to go, you can eat the difference with the thinset/mortar. Depending on the size of your tiles, you may need to level the floor with a self leveler like Ardex. Larger tiles require a more level floor, smaller tiles can flex over imperfections in the subfloor. Were I you I would choose a tile no larger than 12" x 12", even better in the 6" to 8" range, or a mosaic on a backer panel. The larger the tile, the more difficult it will be to get all the tiles level with one another - you will have little edges sticking up, and you will trip.
3. waterproofing. you should do it, especially since it seems like there is a neighbor below. You put down a membrane on the subfloor below the tiles and thinset, and it should run up the walls at least 4". It basically makes your bathroom into a giant bathtub in case something leaks.
4. If you really are going to rip this up in a year, just do vinyl. Tiling is a big pain, especailly if you want to do it right.
posted by annie o at 9:44 PM on June 4, 2015
2. floor levelness - as others have said, NOT guaranteed. This affects a few things - first you should level your wall tile using preferably a laser level independently of the floor. Second, you need to see how not level your floor is. If it's pretty level (less than 1/2" across the whole floor) you're good to go, you can eat the difference with the thinset/mortar. Depending on the size of your tiles, you may need to level the floor with a self leveler like Ardex. Larger tiles require a more level floor, smaller tiles can flex over imperfections in the subfloor. Were I you I would choose a tile no larger than 12" x 12", even better in the 6" to 8" range, or a mosaic on a backer panel. The larger the tile, the more difficult it will be to get all the tiles level with one another - you will have little edges sticking up, and you will trip.
3. waterproofing. you should do it, especially since it seems like there is a neighbor below. You put down a membrane on the subfloor below the tiles and thinset, and it should run up the walls at least 4". It basically makes your bathroom into a giant bathtub in case something leaks.
4. If you really are going to rip this up in a year, just do vinyl. Tiling is a big pain, especailly if you want to do it right.
posted by annie o at 9:44 PM on June 4, 2015
Thanks, everyone! I appreciate the input.
A little explanation of my wacky plan -- sorry, I should have been clearer up front: there are extenuating circumstances for why I'm willing to waste time/money/effort laying tile I may wind up ripping out. I'm not yet a permanent resident, and should something go catastrophically wrong and I lose my visa, I basically have 28 days to GTFO, and most of that time will be spent trying to get my cats back into the States, not sprucing things up for realtors. So, with that consideration, I'd rather have the floor look ... not obviously temporary.
Anyways, did anyone happen to have any thoughts about the cabinet shim? I think I'm still leaning towards shim and caulk at the edges. It just seems like a terrible idea to leave a gap, or that it'll look half-assed if I mount it directly to the wall first and tile around it. I'll keep back extra tiles tiles to replace broken/drilled ones later (and fix any destroyed by the floor if that comes to fruition), but ain't nobody got time to tile a random patch of wall just to replace a cabinet.
posted by sldownard at 11:27 AM on June 5, 2015
A little explanation of my wacky plan -- sorry, I should have been clearer up front: there are extenuating circumstances for why I'm willing to waste time/money/effort laying tile I may wind up ripping out. I'm not yet a permanent resident, and should something go catastrophically wrong and I lose my visa, I basically have 28 days to GTFO, and most of that time will be spent trying to get my cats back into the States, not sprucing things up for realtors. So, with that consideration, I'd rather have the floor look ... not obviously temporary.
Anyways, did anyone happen to have any thoughts about the cabinet shim? I think I'm still leaning towards shim and caulk at the edges. It just seems like a terrible idea to leave a gap, or that it'll look half-assed if I mount it directly to the wall first and tile around it. I'll keep back extra tiles tiles to replace broken/drilled ones later (and fix any destroyed by the floor if that comes to fruition), but ain't nobody got time to tile a random patch of wall just to replace a cabinet.
posted by sldownard at 11:27 AM on June 5, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
1. I found that cheap wet saws are a lot more effective than cheap manual tile cutters - there certainly seems to be a knack for using the latter in such a way as not to expensively break tiles - and the latter are also not good for doing more complex cuts such as L shaped corners, curves, etc. Wet saws make a hell of a noise in an apartment - but maybe you can arrange to use them during the day.
2. Youtube has any number of useful demonstration videos for all aspects of doing this work. There do appear to be more than one "right ways" of doing things - so you might have to choose whatever appeals best to you.
3. Try to find a "model bathroom" to use as a template: somewhere that has been done to a high standard by professionals in a style that appeals to you. When you have found it take pictures and notes so that you can see how the detailed fitting has been done.
4. Both cost and fitting complexity rise with the number of tiles that you will need to apply. For this reason, from a technical point of view alone, choose big tiles and avoid things like decorative bands. On the bathroom that I did there is a decorative band of tiles running about half way up the wall. The cost of these smaller tiles was greater than the cost of the generic, bigger tiles used on the rest of the surface.
posted by rongorongo at 1:32 AM on June 1, 2015