toddler discipline, I want to be POSITIVE!! but I'm not sure how...
April 27, 2015 9:21 AM Subscribe
Ok, so there's a lot I like about the "positive discipline" approach I really like. Basically it feels better for us, and I think my little guy. But I can't figure out what that looks like when he is aggressive (hitting/biting/pushing), especially with his sister.
Not sure how much I need to write, but basically I don't know what to do when my just turned 2 year old hurts his 9 month old little sister. He doesn't do this a lot, but when he's having a tough time (teething, sick, tired) sometimes he'll lash out at her.
We are definitely working on encouraging him to use his words if he wants the baby to move/give him a toy/come play/stop it, etc. And that seems to work for some of the acting out. But sometimes he just out of the blue hits/bites/pushes/drops a heavy thing on her. Sometimes like he's just curious what will happen. If it's a little thing (light smack) or I see it coming and stop him, I tell him no firmly, separate them, and tell him we don't hit it hurts the baby etc. But when I don't see it coming and it's hurting her (he's in the middle of biting her or "wrestling" with her) I often yell ("NO! STOP! NO!"), I don't like yelling, it scares him, but he's hurting her and that scares me and I want it to stop, and yelling in that situation is my first instinct.
We do some time outs, but we've been inconsistent in the last month or two because he hasn't been acting out much the last couple of months and we don't understand how to do them in a way that isn't overly punitive or that seems to consistently work. He won't sit still. Nope, nada. When we were doing them more consistently we generally put him in his room with the timer, close the door, and let him out when the timer is up (90sec), and either reiterate the reason for the time out in a neutral voice or just go on to the next activity, but it seemed to sometimes just upset and wind him up more. Time outs, as we've tried to implement them have felt weird and only intermittently effective for us.
Basically I'm unsure about:
1) whether yelling at him when he is actually hurting someone else is either bad or effective?
2) what's a blow by blow positive discipline intervention and "consequence" for violent behavior?
Really what is the most effective, loving (for BOTH my children) way to handle these things IN THE MOMENT they are happening?
Not sure how much I need to write, but basically I don't know what to do when my just turned 2 year old hurts his 9 month old little sister. He doesn't do this a lot, but when he's having a tough time (teething, sick, tired) sometimes he'll lash out at her.
We are definitely working on encouraging him to use his words if he wants the baby to move/give him a toy/come play/stop it, etc. And that seems to work for some of the acting out. But sometimes he just out of the blue hits/bites/pushes/drops a heavy thing on her. Sometimes like he's just curious what will happen. If it's a little thing (light smack) or I see it coming and stop him, I tell him no firmly, separate them, and tell him we don't hit it hurts the baby etc. But when I don't see it coming and it's hurting her (he's in the middle of biting her or "wrestling" with her) I often yell ("NO! STOP! NO!"), I don't like yelling, it scares him, but he's hurting her and that scares me and I want it to stop, and yelling in that situation is my first instinct.
We do some time outs, but we've been inconsistent in the last month or two because he hasn't been acting out much the last couple of months and we don't understand how to do them in a way that isn't overly punitive or that seems to consistently work. He won't sit still. Nope, nada. When we were doing them more consistently we generally put him in his room with the timer, close the door, and let him out when the timer is up (90sec), and either reiterate the reason for the time out in a neutral voice or just go on to the next activity, but it seemed to sometimes just upset and wind him up more. Time outs, as we've tried to implement them have felt weird and only intermittently effective for us.
Basically I'm unsure about:
1) whether yelling at him when he is actually hurting someone else is either bad or effective?
2) what's a blow by blow positive discipline intervention and "consequence" for violent behavior?
Really what is the most effective, loving (for BOTH my children) way to handle these things IN THE MOMENT they are happening?
Response by poster: I've found a lot of the positive discipline info online very vague when it comes to the specifics of a situation, they just talk about how good the general philosophy is, yadda yadda. I don't disagree, but it's just not nearly specific enough to help me understand how to react.
So your answer is more helpful then I've found out there, but I'm still struggling with a few things:
For the specific scenario you mention with "NO! STOP! NO!" -- don't bother. He knows he shouldn't. His toddler brain still often overrides the "Mum said no."
Even if the, um, action is pending? Like while he is hugging his sister (he is very sweet with her a lot of the time) I see his jaw open for a bite, but I am physically too far away to get there in time to prevent it? I feel like part of my shouting is to try and stop the thing from happening...
What I did was just get up and swoop in and calmly physically remove the kid from whatever was causing an issue. It stops the problem, and the urge to repeat whatever it was then also gets a "Mum will not only make me stop hitting, but also take me away from the toys [etc]." Just chuck the kid under your arm and go about whatever.
But I can't just scoop him up and remove him, because I have to scoop up the baby and console her because she's scared and in pain. So I scoop her up, and then what? tell him no or say nothing? overtly leave him by himself for a bit or stay close while I tend to the baby? talk to him and try and address what his underlying issue might be? talk to him about how we don't hit the baby?
Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult it's just that I think I need a script or formula for exactly what I will do because when he hurts her (she's so little still) I get very upset and its very difficult to think clearly in the moment.
posted by pennypiper at 10:23 AM on April 27, 2015
So your answer is more helpful then I've found out there, but I'm still struggling with a few things:
For the specific scenario you mention with "NO! STOP! NO!" -- don't bother. He knows he shouldn't. His toddler brain still often overrides the "Mum said no."
Even if the, um, action is pending? Like while he is hugging his sister (he is very sweet with her a lot of the time) I see his jaw open for a bite, but I am physically too far away to get there in time to prevent it? I feel like part of my shouting is to try and stop the thing from happening...
What I did was just get up and swoop in and calmly physically remove the kid from whatever was causing an issue. It stops the problem, and the urge to repeat whatever it was then also gets a "Mum will not only make me stop hitting, but also take me away from the toys [etc]." Just chuck the kid under your arm and go about whatever.
But I can't just scoop him up and remove him, because I have to scoop up the baby and console her because she's scared and in pain. So I scoop her up, and then what? tell him no or say nothing? overtly leave him by himself for a bit or stay close while I tend to the baby? talk to him and try and address what his underlying issue might be? talk to him about how we don't hit the baby?
Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult it's just that I think I need a script or formula for exactly what I will do because when he hurts her (she's so little still) I get very upset and its very difficult to think clearly in the moment.
posted by pennypiper at 10:23 AM on April 27, 2015
Best answer: I find it useful to think through which situations are those which merit yelling or a time out before they happen (or to think that through after the first time a new behavior pops up and I freak). In our family time out (more like a time in) is specifically for endangering someone's safety, which includes hitting. Yelling is for "you are not safe, and also far away." And I also find it useful to think through whether my Mom Sense was tingling that something was not right beforehand, and if I could have headed it off with a snack or a change of venue. I feel way more in control when I can say "Oh, he's doing the thing that I've already decided how to handle."
Here's a blow-by-blow for how I try to behave in moments like that. First, instant removal from the situation, forcefully but not frighteningly, and sitting him on my lap on the stairs for a count of 10-20 (a bit time-outy), and saying something along the lines of "Hey, you know we don't bite. We don't bite because XYZ. Your body isn't in control right now. How can we calm it down?" He suggests either:
-A reasonable thing, which he gets. "A cheese stick? Yeah, sometimes feeling hungry can make it hard to be calm. Here you go."
-An unreasonable thing. The feeling behind the request gets sympathized with, and an alternative suggestion that addresses the feeling gets made. "You want to live with a different family? I know, it's hard to get along with all people all the time. Do you want to stay in here a few minutes by yourself to calm your body, away from everyone?"
-A non-answer, which gets redirected. "I know, she knocked over your tower, that was very frustrating! Do you want to help me make lunch?"
He was right on the edge of understanding this at your son's age, about when we started this; at that age his response was mostly the 3rd one. He's 4 now, and while he's a butt plenty (and while I don't live up to my own ideals plenty omg last week was so bad), he also sometimes says things like "I'm having a bad morning. I'm going to go to my room to sort things out." And if I walk by, he's angrily rocking in the rocking chair, or telling a stuffed animal his troubles, or whatever, and comes back out at a 2 instead of a 9 on the About To Make A Bad Choice Scale.
posted by tchemgrrl at 10:28 AM on April 27, 2015 [20 favorites]
Here's a blow-by-blow for how I try to behave in moments like that. First, instant removal from the situation, forcefully but not frighteningly, and sitting him on my lap on the stairs for a count of 10-20 (a bit time-outy), and saying something along the lines of "Hey, you know we don't bite. We don't bite because XYZ. Your body isn't in control right now. How can we calm it down?" He suggests either:
-A reasonable thing, which he gets. "A cheese stick? Yeah, sometimes feeling hungry can make it hard to be calm. Here you go."
-An unreasonable thing. The feeling behind the request gets sympathized with, and an alternative suggestion that addresses the feeling gets made. "You want to live with a different family? I know, it's hard to get along with all people all the time. Do you want to stay in here a few minutes by yourself to calm your body, away from everyone?"
-A non-answer, which gets redirected. "I know, she knocked over your tower, that was very frustrating! Do you want to help me make lunch?"
He was right on the edge of understanding this at your son's age, about when we started this; at that age his response was mostly the 3rd one. He's 4 now, and while he's a butt plenty (and while I don't live up to my own ideals plenty omg last week was so bad), he also sometimes says things like "I'm having a bad morning. I'm going to go to my room to sort things out." And if I walk by, he's angrily rocking in the rocking chair, or telling a stuffed animal his troubles, or whatever, and comes back out at a 2 instead of a 9 on the About To Make A Bad Choice Scale.
posted by tchemgrrl at 10:28 AM on April 27, 2015 [20 favorites]
but I am physically too far away to get there in time to prevent it?
I hate to say this, because it is going to put a major crimp in your ability to get anything done, but it sounds as if for the time being, this situation shouldn't get a chance to arrive -- you want to be in arm's reach of them if they're in physical contact so that you can intervene in a case like that -- so you need to be really near them if they're really near each other.
posted by redfoxtail at 10:41 AM on April 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
I hate to say this, because it is going to put a major crimp in your ability to get anything done, but it sounds as if for the time being, this situation shouldn't get a chance to arrive -- you want to be in arm's reach of them if they're in physical contact so that you can intervene in a case like that -- so you need to be really near them if they're really near each other.
posted by redfoxtail at 10:41 AM on April 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: My gut says that at this age you're still firmly in "redirection" territory. My 18 month old certainly doesn't have enough working brain cells yet to understand a time out, though maybe enough happens in that next 6 months to change the picture?
Here's how I'd play it out:
2yo is across the room, smacking baby repeatedly.
In a super stern voice (the drop it right this instant voice) I'd say NO! STOP! as I crossed the room to grab him. Hopefully this gets his attention long enough to stop a whack-in-progress. You're not berating him, you're just getting him to stop.
I'd pick him up or restrain his hands so he couldn't hit her again.
Then I would look him in the eye and say, kindly, but firmly, "No hitting."
Then, I would smile, and say "We touch the baby gently." And take his hand, and use it to stroke the baby while smiling and saying "geentle, geeeentle".
Finally, I'd move him across the room and give him something different to do, and run through the mental checklist of hungry-tired-needs attention.
If the baby's really upset, I might tend to her first, and try and involve the toddler in giving her a kiss or hug ("Oh no, the baby is sad because you hit her. Let's give her a kiss so she can feel better.") That's something you'll put more focus on as your toddler develops more empathy over time.
I think an often forgotten part of discipline, which has a nice side effect of increasing positive levels, is to specifically instruct the kid what they SHOULD do, instead of just what they should not do. Once your child is old enough to hurt the baby with malice aforethought, then you may wish to increase the punitive element, but a very young child who's lashing out because he hasn't learned to control himself needs to learn how not to lash out. I would close out the interaction by addressing the specific trigger and offering an alternative behavior. I'd say something like "Next time when you're hungry, ask Mommy for a snack." or "Next time she takes your toy, say 'Mommy, help!'" or "When you get mad, instead of hititng, you can say, 'Baby, I AM MAD!" - whatever the immediate trigger seemed to be.
Finish with an "I love you" and a kiss.
Final thoughts:
1) Don't be too wordy. Toddler won't understand. Rehearse in your mind, distill the things you say down to just a few direct words.
2) You will have to repeat this over and over and over. That doesn't mean you're failing as a parent. It just means some kids need to test a rule over and over in all different situations to be sure it still applies. (Can I hit the baby on the head? On the arm? If she took my block? If she touched me with a slobbery hand?)
posted by telepanda at 10:43 AM on April 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Here's how I'd play it out:
In a super stern voice (the drop it right this instant voice) I'd say NO! STOP! as I crossed the room to grab him. Hopefully this gets his attention long enough to stop a whack-in-progress. You're not berating him, you're just getting him to stop.
I'd pick him up or restrain his hands so he couldn't hit her again.
Then I would look him in the eye and say, kindly, but firmly, "No hitting."
Then, I would smile, and say "We touch the baby gently." And take his hand, and use it to stroke the baby while smiling and saying "geentle, geeeentle".
Finally, I'd move him across the room and give him something different to do, and run through the mental checklist of hungry-tired-needs attention.
If the baby's really upset, I might tend to her first, and try and involve the toddler in giving her a kiss or hug ("Oh no, the baby is sad because you hit her. Let's give her a kiss so she can feel better.") That's something you'll put more focus on as your toddler develops more empathy over time.
I think an often forgotten part of discipline, which has a nice side effect of increasing positive levels, is to specifically instruct the kid what they SHOULD do, instead of just what they should not do. Once your child is old enough to hurt the baby with malice aforethought, then you may wish to increase the punitive element, but a very young child who's lashing out because he hasn't learned to control himself needs to learn how not to lash out. I would close out the interaction by addressing the specific trigger and offering an alternative behavior. I'd say something like "Next time when you're hungry, ask Mommy for a snack." or "Next time she takes your toy, say 'Mommy, help!'" or "When you get mad, instead of hititng, you can say, 'Baby, I AM MAD!" - whatever the immediate trigger seemed to be.
Finish with an "I love you" and a kiss.
Final thoughts:
1) Don't be too wordy. Toddler won't understand. Rehearse in your mind, distill the things you say down to just a few direct words.
2) You will have to repeat this over and over and over. That doesn't mean you're failing as a parent. It just means some kids need to test a rule over and over in all different situations to be sure it still applies. (Can I hit the baby on the head? On the arm? If she took my block? If she touched me with a slobbery hand?)
posted by telepanda at 10:43 AM on April 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: He just turned 2. He doesn't even know why he does what he does.
The best thing isn't even positive engagement, but disengagement. And I don't mean time outs necessarily. I mean, he hits his sister, you say, "No hit," and remove him. And then you offer him alternatives.
But the catch is, he's 2. He doesn't know why he's doing what he's doing any more than you do, so definitely more hands on disengaging him from those situations.
This, too, shall pass. He'll be 4 someday.
posted by zizzle at 10:44 AM on April 27, 2015
The best thing isn't even positive engagement, but disengagement. And I don't mean time outs necessarily. I mean, he hits his sister, you say, "No hit," and remove him. And then you offer him alternatives.
But the catch is, he's 2. He doesn't know why he's doing what he's doing any more than you do, so definitely more hands on disengaging him from those situations.
This, too, shall pass. He'll be 4 someday.
posted by zizzle at 10:44 AM on April 27, 2015
Best answer: I haven't read No-Drama Discipline, but I love a few of Dan Siegal's other parenting books and they tend to be very example-heavy. There's a huge excerpt from the first chapter here that brings up hitting (and keep reading for an acknowledgment that it's hard to do in the moment when a wrestling match is going on!).
posted by jaguar at 10:44 AM on April 27, 2015
posted by jaguar at 10:44 AM on April 27, 2015
Best answer: Mom of a 7.5 and 5.5-year-old here, and I have so totally been in your exact shoes. Here's some easy advice to give, but hard advice to take: reward the behaviors you want to see more of, NOT the other way around. Give attention, relationship and reward to your child at times when he is behaving well, like: "I noticed you were feeling mad just now but that you didn't hit your sister! That shows amazing character!" and "You used your words to tell me you're feeling frustrated! You're being so successful right now -- yay!" Catch him behaving well, and notice the hell out of it. I know it sounds odd, because our society almost always does this the other way around (i.e. detention, getting sent to the principal's office, being grounded, spanking, etc). We tend to ignore kids until they break a rule in order to get our attention, then we respond by giving them a bunch of negative attention under the guise of discipline, and it sometimes becomes a vicious cycle. (See Transforming the Difficult Child: The Nurtured Heart Approach by Howard Glasser.)
Age 2+ is also a great age for starting to actively teach your child some social skills. The TV show Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood on PBS kids is an awesome, age-appropriate resource for this. It's seriously a real gem that deals with all of the issues you're facing. The right board books are really helpful, too: Hands are Not for Hitting, and all of the board books in the "Best Behavior" series by Dr. Martine Agassi are excellent. Hang in there!
posted by hush at 10:48 AM on April 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Age 2+ is also a great age for starting to actively teach your child some social skills. The TV show Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood on PBS kids is an awesome, age-appropriate resource for this. It's seriously a real gem that deals with all of the issues you're facing. The right board books are really helpful, too: Hands are Not for Hitting, and all of the board books in the "Best Behavior" series by Dr. Martine Agassi are excellent. Hang in there!
posted by hush at 10:48 AM on April 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: There is nothing wrong with physically overpowering a small child, provided that it's not done in anger and is not done in such a way as to inflict more pain than is absolutely necessary to the purpose (e.g. moving little mister bash-bash out of range of his sister, or immobilising him in a big gentle bear hug until he stops thrashing). His little kiddy brain needs to learn that you are big, gentle, reliable and irresistible.
So you're doing absolutely the right thing by separating them. The consequence for violent behavior is removal from the opportunity to commit it further.
Consistent use of a disapproval sign in conjunction with the swoop-in and separate (stern face + No! is fine, but yelling to the extent of causing genuine fear is counterproductive) should eventually get you to the point where the actual swoop is not needed any more. Reasoning with a tiny child as if he were an adult (we don't hit it hurts the baby etc.) is pretty much a waste of both your time at his present age, because verbal reasoning means nothing to brains that young; only impulses and consequences do.
He's simply not equipped yet with the brain machinery he would need to regulate his behaviour by reasoning about it. What he is equipped with is an astounding new sense of speed, power and coordination that it is fun to do stuff with. He will be doing heaps of things with his body now that he was simply not able to do six months ago. Can you imagine how godlike that must feel right now? I AM TWO! I AM IN CHARGE OF ME! GRAAAAAAR!
One of the hardest things I had to learn as a parent of little people is that it is absolutely 100% OK for me to be completely in charge; as long as I'm genuinely acting in ways that are good for the kids, I do not need to negotiate with them. With my partner about the kids? Absolutely. With the kids themselves? Not until they're old enough to have a reasoned conversation with.
Little kids need parents they experience as both reliable sources of love and comfort and as utterly irresistible forces. The love and comfort part comes easily to most of us, but the irresistible force part doesn't. I guess that's because most of us experience the unyielding imposition of will as bullying, either given or received, which is where that pattern shows up most often between adults.
But here's the thing: little kids might be not super-skilled at reasoning, but they have the best emotional antennae. If you are not fully convinced of your right to a certain mountain-like inevitability, they will notice that and they will very very quickly learn to push the buttons that work around it.
Imposing your irresistible will on small children is not bullying if it's motivated by your love and empathy for the children in your care and your well-informed understanding of their actual needs.
And there is no need for anger when a two year old hits his sister. He's not doing that because he's bad; he's doing that because he's two. That's how two year olds are. They hit, they bite, they scratch, they scream, they fling themselves about and bung on the drama like nobody's business when they don't get their way. This is not done to provoke you; it's done because godlike two-year-old power feels amazingly good and having it forcibly constrained feels terrible.
But there is a need to protect the sister, and if the cost of acting on that need is that a two year old feels terrible for a minute or two from being frustrated in his pugilistic aims? Tough. Sucks to be two. He'll get over it, and he will learn to channel his own behaviour along lines that don't involve suffering inconvenient interventions from you.
At two, they don't know right from wrong. Takes years of patient training for them to get the gist of that. You can help by doing your best to see the world from their completely unreasonable point of view, which will help you anticipate situations likely to cause a need for physical intervention; and when that intervention is needed, supply it swiftly and gently and effectively and without anger. And then do it again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again.
Testing the boundaries is a two-year-old's job description. Yours involves consistently and gently enforcing them. Do that without guilt.
Don't bother arguing with a two year old. Just win before the argument has time to take a breath.
I see his jaw open for a bite, but I am physically too far away to get there in time to prevent it? I feel like part of my shouting is to try and stop the thing from happening...
That's where you use your disapproval sign by itself before you can rush in, and hope like hell you've been consistent enough with it that he will instantly know what's coming and back off.
It's really, really important to self-review an incident like that afterwards, paying particular attention to the result you got as opposed to the result you were trying for. He's learning how to navigate the world with all his new-found physical power, but he's teaching you as well, and the more open you are to paying attention to actual results the faster you're going to learn him and the better time you're both going to have.
So if a really loud NO! STOP! NO! yell works - excellent! You now have a tool. But don't make it your only tool. The best tools are the ones that frighten him the least, because fear limits perception.
posted by flabdablet at 10:57 AM on April 27, 2015 [14 favorites]
So you're doing absolutely the right thing by separating them. The consequence for violent behavior is removal from the opportunity to commit it further.
Consistent use of a disapproval sign in conjunction with the swoop-in and separate (stern face + No! is fine, but yelling to the extent of causing genuine fear is counterproductive) should eventually get you to the point where the actual swoop is not needed any more. Reasoning with a tiny child as if he were an adult (we don't hit it hurts the baby etc.) is pretty much a waste of both your time at his present age, because verbal reasoning means nothing to brains that young; only impulses and consequences do.
He's simply not equipped yet with the brain machinery he would need to regulate his behaviour by reasoning about it. What he is equipped with is an astounding new sense of speed, power and coordination that it is fun to do stuff with. He will be doing heaps of things with his body now that he was simply not able to do six months ago. Can you imagine how godlike that must feel right now? I AM TWO! I AM IN CHARGE OF ME! GRAAAAAAR!
One of the hardest things I had to learn as a parent of little people is that it is absolutely 100% OK for me to be completely in charge; as long as I'm genuinely acting in ways that are good for the kids, I do not need to negotiate with them. With my partner about the kids? Absolutely. With the kids themselves? Not until they're old enough to have a reasoned conversation with.
Little kids need parents they experience as both reliable sources of love and comfort and as utterly irresistible forces. The love and comfort part comes easily to most of us, but the irresistible force part doesn't. I guess that's because most of us experience the unyielding imposition of will as bullying, either given or received, which is where that pattern shows up most often between adults.
But here's the thing: little kids might be not super-skilled at reasoning, but they have the best emotional antennae. If you are not fully convinced of your right to a certain mountain-like inevitability, they will notice that and they will very very quickly learn to push the buttons that work around it.
Imposing your irresistible will on small children is not bullying if it's motivated by your love and empathy for the children in your care and your well-informed understanding of their actual needs.
And there is no need for anger when a two year old hits his sister. He's not doing that because he's bad; he's doing that because he's two. That's how two year olds are. They hit, they bite, they scratch, they scream, they fling themselves about and bung on the drama like nobody's business when they don't get their way. This is not done to provoke you; it's done because godlike two-year-old power feels amazingly good and having it forcibly constrained feels terrible.
But there is a need to protect the sister, and if the cost of acting on that need is that a two year old feels terrible for a minute or two from being frustrated in his pugilistic aims? Tough. Sucks to be two. He'll get over it, and he will learn to channel his own behaviour along lines that don't involve suffering inconvenient interventions from you.
At two, they don't know right from wrong. Takes years of patient training for them to get the gist of that. You can help by doing your best to see the world from their completely unreasonable point of view, which will help you anticipate situations likely to cause a need for physical intervention; and when that intervention is needed, supply it swiftly and gently and effectively and without anger. And then do it again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again.
Testing the boundaries is a two-year-old's job description. Yours involves consistently and gently enforcing them. Do that without guilt.
Don't bother arguing with a two year old. Just win before the argument has time to take a breath.
I see his jaw open for a bite, but I am physically too far away to get there in time to prevent it? I feel like part of my shouting is to try and stop the thing from happening...
That's where you use your disapproval sign by itself before you can rush in, and hope like hell you've been consistent enough with it that he will instantly know what's coming and back off.
It's really, really important to self-review an incident like that afterwards, paying particular attention to the result you got as opposed to the result you were trying for. He's learning how to navigate the world with all his new-found physical power, but he's teaching you as well, and the more open you are to paying attention to actual results the faster you're going to learn him and the better time you're both going to have.
So if a really loud NO! STOP! NO! yell works - excellent! You now have a tool. But don't make it your only tool. The best tools are the ones that frighten him the least, because fear limits perception.
posted by flabdablet at 10:57 AM on April 27, 2015 [14 favorites]
And yes, yes, yes to what hush said when he's being gentle with his sister. Having a good, reliable set of approval signs is going to help him along more than any other single thing.
posted by flabdablet at 11:00 AM on April 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 11:00 AM on April 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm currently taking it right now, but the edX course "Positive Behavior Support for Young Children" has been awesome so far. It has a lot of concrete tools/advice - it's geared toward educators, but I could definitely see a lot of the strategies lending themselves really well to the home, too!
posted by superlibby at 11:55 AM on April 27, 2015
posted by superlibby at 11:55 AM on April 27, 2015
Best answer: I practice non-punitive parenting (including no time outs, yeah, I know), and what this looked like for us when my kids were around those ages was CONSTANT VIGILANCE. Basically, your toddler does not have the frontal lobe development (i.e., impulse control) to stop himself. He knows he shouldn't hit his sister, but he physically can't stop himself -- yet. I heavily supervised my kids at that phase, and if my older son hit/bit/whatever or began to, I'd step in and say, "I won't let you hit your brother," and physically move him away. Super calm, no big deal, just, you know, we don't do this. Did my kid like this? Nope. Lots of tantrums, trying to hit me instead, etc. When that happened, I'd put the baby in a safe place (on my back in the carrier; Pack 'n' Play; crib) and be ON with the big kid: "I am not going to let you hit me." And then staying physically present, keeping him and me safe, for when he calmed down and needed a hug.
We tried time outs around this time, and at least with my kid, they were not effective. Three minutes in a time out, and he'd come out more reactive and aggressive than before. I assume because being isolated made him feel even more abandoned than before. Sticking close has helped tremendously. Is it a huge amount of work? Yup. My younger son spent a LOT of time in a carrier or his high chair or other safe space in situations when I couldn't supervise both of them heavily (making dinner, etc.) It definitely required a change in thinking for me to get to this point, and yeah, I still yell at my kids sometimes. It's hard to unlearn all that stuff. But I've noticed that the more I empathize with my kids (while maintaining firm limits), the more empathy and patience they display. I was pretty convinced that my older son would never be able to deal with frustration appropriately -- let me tell you about when he threw a Mason jar at his father! -- but he's a completely different kid a year later.
I've found Janet Lansbury's writing to be helpful, in addition to Aha Parenting.
posted by linettasky at 12:01 PM on April 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
We tried time outs around this time, and at least with my kid, they were not effective. Three minutes in a time out, and he'd come out more reactive and aggressive than before. I assume because being isolated made him feel even more abandoned than before. Sticking close has helped tremendously. Is it a huge amount of work? Yup. My younger son spent a LOT of time in a carrier or his high chair or other safe space in situations when I couldn't supervise both of them heavily (making dinner, etc.) It definitely required a change in thinking for me to get to this point, and yeah, I still yell at my kids sometimes. It's hard to unlearn all that stuff. But I've noticed that the more I empathize with my kids (while maintaining firm limits), the more empathy and patience they display. I was pretty convinced that my older son would never be able to deal with frustration appropriately -- let me tell you about when he threw a Mason jar at his father! -- but he's a completely different kid a year later.
I've found Janet Lansbury's writing to be helpful, in addition to Aha Parenting.
posted by linettasky at 12:01 PM on April 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Redirection when possible. The best results we've ever had with redirection involves tickling. Quiet time works somewhat, but time outs at that age were a little difficult to enforce (toddlers are the very definition of irrational actors).
Also, if they hit, pay attention to the other child's injury. Make sure the other child is okay first before you give the one doing the hitting more direct attention.
Also, there is no one right way with this. I remember following the advice of a dog trainer to shake a can of pennies when my dog misbehaved - he liked it.
Also, dogs are easier to train than you are. Remember this isn't really toddler training, this is training you to help them redirect negative emotions into either a positive relationship building experience or to find better ways to spend their energy.
posted by Nanukthedog at 12:13 PM on April 27, 2015
Also, if they hit, pay attention to the other child's injury. Make sure the other child is okay first before you give the one doing the hitting more direct attention.
Also, there is no one right way with this. I remember following the advice of a dog trainer to shake a can of pennies when my dog misbehaved - he liked it.
Also, dogs are easier to train than you are. Remember this isn't really toddler training, this is training you to help them redirect negative emotions into either a positive relationship building experience or to find better ways to spend their energy.
posted by Nanukthedog at 12:13 PM on April 27, 2015
What redfoxtail said. Prevent the situation by keeping one of them close to you all the time and anticipate situations that frequently lead to problems. It won't be necessary forever, but for now it will prevent you from needing to intervene.
posted by metasarah at 1:17 PM on April 27, 2015
posted by metasarah at 1:17 PM on April 27, 2015
Response by poster: Thanks everyone, this is all very helpful. I think I needed to be reminded/encouraged that this is developmentally appropriate for a two year old, and so it is expected, if not desirable, behavior. I think that may help me be more mindful of warning signs and hopefully keep my cool better when it happens. Also I think one of the things I really struggled with was the idea of needing to have immediate consequences (and how that works when the 'victim' needs attending to immediately), but it sounds like immediacy isn't the most important thing with this style of discipline. Forgoing that, and completely eliminating the idea of punishment, makes this seem a lot less confusing.
So my plan:
posted by pennypiper at 1:37 PM on April 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
So my plan:
- Develop a "consistent disapproval sign" (not shouting) for attempting to stop an impending act when I am unable to reach him in time. Even if it doesn't work now, hopefully it will eventually.
- If baby is distressed, remove her. Say something like "no hitting/biting/etc." CALMLY as I remove her. If I can't say it calmly, don't say anything. Comfort baby.
- If Big Brother needs me while I am not calm, tell him I am upset and need to calm down.
- When baby is okay and I am CALM, then connect with him, troubleshoot/fix root causes, and model desired behavior (all with very few words).
posted by pennypiper at 1:37 PM on April 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: And it's not that I'm ignoring the suggestions for preventing these situations, it's just that I feel like we already have a good grasp on that. It was the handling the in the moment situation that I was struggling with.
posted by pennypiper at 1:41 PM on April 27, 2015
posted by pennypiper at 1:41 PM on April 27, 2015
Best answer: I'm assuming you're talking about Dr. Jane Nelsen's Positive Discipline ? She has a really amazing A-Z guide on Amazon for like 12 bucks, and it's definitely worth picking up. I loved the original book of hers that she wrote that provides all the theory behind the technique, but this guide has really helped me in my classroom by providing me with an index of behavior I can look up, then go find how to aid. I think she even has a toddler edition.
Hitting is an age appropriate impulse for toddlers, especially if they're pre-language. Basically, you have to start on the "Gentle hands" thing. Look it up for sure, but the way I use it in my pre-k classroom, is that you take your toddlers hand after s/he hits and then say something stern (but GENTLE) disapproval (I don't like that/ that hurts). Then use your hand to gently touch their arm, and say something like, "This is how I use gentle hands, can you show me how you use yours?" gently use your hand to guide theirs to gently touch your arm, then approve them.
It sounds kind of hokey, and it does take a while for them to get it, but it really works. It requires a lot of vigilance since you have to be very consistent, but it's much gentler than many alternatives.
posted by Kestrelxo at 2:46 PM on April 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hitting is an age appropriate impulse for toddlers, especially if they're pre-language. Basically, you have to start on the "Gentle hands" thing. Look it up for sure, but the way I use it in my pre-k classroom, is that you take your toddlers hand after s/he hits and then say something stern (but GENTLE) disapproval (I don't like that/ that hurts). Then use your hand to gently touch their arm, and say something like, "This is how I use gentle hands, can you show me how you use yours?" gently use your hand to guide theirs to gently touch your arm, then approve them.
It sounds kind of hokey, and it does take a while for them to get it, but it really works. It requires a lot of vigilance since you have to be very consistent, but it's much gentler than many alternatives.
posted by Kestrelxo at 2:46 PM on April 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
...
3. If Big Brother needs me while I am not calm, tell him I am upset and need to calm down.
4. When baby is okay and I am CALM, then connect with him, troubleshoot/fix root causes, and model desired behavior
All of that strikes me as exactly "model desired behavior". I think you'll do fine. And really, it's the modelling thing that makes this whole style of parenting work. Best start a family can have toward raising respectful, well-behaved kids is respectful, well-behaved parenting. Which is not at all the same thing as trying to behave as if the kids were or somehow should be miniature adults.
simple, though not particularly easy
Yes × 1000.
There's this lovely face trick that I absolutely cannot do at all but really wish I could, because it is the perfect starting point to get you from zero to calm when faced with that sudden berserker rush of drama. I know this because I had a co-worker who was the absolute master of it. So for years now it's been his face, not mine, that I use on the inside when it's time for my mind to raise just one eyebrow.
it is expected, if not desirable, behavior
Make that your parenting mantra. You are so gonna need it :-)
posted by flabdablet at 4:22 PM on April 27, 2015
3. If Big Brother needs me while I am not calm, tell him I am upset and need to calm down.
4. When baby is okay and I am CALM, then connect with him, troubleshoot/fix root causes, and model desired behavior
All of that strikes me as exactly "model desired behavior". I think you'll do fine. And really, it's the modelling thing that makes this whole style of parenting work. Best start a family can have toward raising respectful, well-behaved kids is respectful, well-behaved parenting. Which is not at all the same thing as trying to behave as if the kids were or somehow should be miniature adults.
simple, though not particularly easy
Yes × 1000.
There's this lovely face trick that I absolutely cannot do at all but really wish I could, because it is the perfect starting point to get you from zero to calm when faced with that sudden berserker rush of drama. I know this because I had a co-worker who was the absolute master of it. So for years now it's been his face, not mine, that I use on the inside when it's time for my mind to raise just one eyebrow.
it is expected, if not desirable, behavior
Make that your parenting mantra. You are so gonna need it :-)
posted by flabdablet at 4:22 PM on April 27, 2015
Develop a "consistent disapproval sign" (not shouting)
You can certainly shout if you need to grab the attention of a small person twenty yards away. The point is to use the shout for overcoming distance, not for trying to force a toddler into fight-flight-or-freeze by communicating anger or outrage.
Hitting is an age appropriate impulse for toddlers
This is an idea worth sitting with and unpacking at length, because "appropriate impulse" and "acceptable behaviour" are not at all the same thing. The trick we're trying to pull off as parents is to help them find their way from the impulse they feel to the behaviour they need. It's a huge job. It's not something that happens all by itself.
One of the saddest things I've ever had the misfortune to be witness to was a man slumped on his sofa in front of the TV with a ciggie in one hand and a beer in the other just roaring at his girlfriend's three-year-old to "act your age". Damage echoing down the generations.
posted by flabdablet at 4:38 PM on April 27, 2015
You can certainly shout if you need to grab the attention of a small person twenty yards away. The point is to use the shout for overcoming distance, not for trying to force a toddler into fight-flight-or-freeze by communicating anger or outrage.
Hitting is an age appropriate impulse for toddlers
This is an idea worth sitting with and unpacking at length, because "appropriate impulse" and "acceptable behaviour" are not at all the same thing. The trick we're trying to pull off as parents is to help them find their way from the impulse they feel to the behaviour they need. It's a huge job. It's not something that happens all by itself.
One of the saddest things I've ever had the misfortune to be witness to was a man slumped on his sofa in front of the TV with a ciggie in one hand and a beer in the other just roaring at his girlfriend's three-year-old to "act your age". Damage echoing down the generations.
posted by flabdablet at 4:38 PM on April 27, 2015
Best answer: Since you repeatedly mention calm, one thing I'd like to add, in case you ever do lose your temper, is that it's ok to apologize to a child. This will serve you well in a year or so when your child understands more and is really starting to push your buttons but is also very emotionally tapped into you. Say you yelled at him more than you meant to, and made him cry. "I got mad and used a mean voice when you hit your sister. That was unkind and I'm sorry. I don't like it when you hit your sister and you don't like it when I use a mean voice. Let's both give each other an I'm sorry kiss. Now we are ok!"
You don't grovel, you model. Over time he will learn that people lose their tempers (himself and his mother included) and then they try to make amends. This is the long game - it will be awhile til he understands - but in time he will and it will pay off.
posted by telepanda at 7:41 PM on April 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
You don't grovel, you model. Over time he will learn that people lose their tempers (himself and his mother included) and then they try to make amends. This is the long game - it will be awhile til he understands - but in time he will and it will pay off.
posted by telepanda at 7:41 PM on April 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Here is a very recent blog post from ahaparenting with an example script for when the big sibling hits the little one. The kids in the example are older than yours -- four and two -- but the article does a good job of talking about how to meet both children's needs for safety while you're trying to defuse and respond to a crisis.
Also, see this on toddlers hitting.
(The author, Laura Markham, is just about to release a book on sibling relationships. I have preordered it but not read it yet!)
posted by wyzewoman at 8:30 PM on April 27, 2015
Also, see this on toddlers hitting.
(The author, Laura Markham, is just about to release a book on sibling relationships. I have preordered it but not read it yet!)
posted by wyzewoman at 8:30 PM on April 27, 2015
Best answer: I don't need to put my two year old in time out for more than ten seconds for it to be an appropriate punishment.
Adapting '1, 2, 3 Magic' has worked really well for us as a 'disapproval sign'. After a couple of weeks of consistency, saying '1' to an open mouth resulted in a closed mouth!
posted by bq at 4:28 PM on April 28, 2015
Adapting '1, 2, 3 Magic' has worked really well for us as a 'disapproval sign'. After a couple of weeks of consistency, saying '1' to an open mouth resulted in a closed mouth!
posted by bq at 4:28 PM on April 28, 2015
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For the specific scenario you mention with "NO! STOP! NO!" -- don't bother. He knows he shouldn't. His toddler brain still often overrides the "Mum said no." What I did was just get up and swoop in and calmly physically remove the kid from whatever was causing an issue. It stops the problem, and the urge to repeat whatever it was then also gets a "Mum will not only make me stop hitting, but also take me away from the toys [etc]." Just chuck the kid under your arm and go about whatever.
If you Google "positive discipline" you should come up with more resources; I also really like How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk. Some of it will be a little more for older kids, but it's good to set up a positive discipline framework early, if that follows. Also Google the concept of "time ins."
I would focus on He doesn't do this a lot, but when he's having a tough time (teething, sick, tired) sometimes he'll lash out at her. At this age (and for quite a while to come, er, even up through adulthood in some ways) you still want to review the basics you did when he was a young baby: is this little person tired? In need of a cuddle? Hungry? Feeling unwell? It is useless to expect good behaviour from a small child who does not have the basics well tended to. Sometimes the "consequence" should just be that now the kid has a snack or a nap or a hug. Because that will be the thing that shuts down the acting out.
I save shouting for extremely urgent/dangerous situations (GET OUT OF THE ROAD!). Otherwise, it loses its effectiveness.
posted by kmennie at 9:39 AM on April 27, 2015 [4 favorites]