Should I ask for acknowledgement and apology?
April 22, 2015 3:07 PM Subscribe
For an almost 2 years, my wife and I were in a rough spot. She was very often angry, her anger was usually directed at me, and her anger often resulted in name-calling and sometimes worse. She never apologized for or acknowledged anything upsetting she said. As detailed 'inside,' this angry spiral ended abruptly (and surprisingly) after a medical intervention for an unrelated issue. Part of me very much wants to talk to her about this episode. I hope for apology and acknowledgement; I fear that it wouldn't be offered.
Three of the most vivid examples of her unpredictable rage include: (1) Once we were at a restaurant and she became angry after I made a study-habit suggestion. She started muttering / repeating, “you’re an asshole” and kicking me hard in the shins under the restaurant table. Another time, when I was trying to hustle my family out of a restaurant because the parking meter was about to expire she became overwhelmed and start shouting “You’re a dick! You’re an asshole. A fucking asshole!” before storming out with our (terrified) kids (both under age 10) in tow. Another time I asked her to scratch my back after what was a hard day for me, and she responded with a terrifying rage, throwing a salt shaker across the room so hard that it dented the wall. Other statements seared into my memory include, “You’re a great dad but you’re a shitty, shitty husband," and "I just wish you would die," and “You’re a disappointment!”
Once her anger subsided, she never offered acknowledgement or apology for anything said or done. If I asked she either didn't remember what she said (and she did suggest that she 'dissociated' sometimes when angry and didn't really remember what happened) or alternatively she would launch into another rage, ranting about how the previous angry rage was all my fault. Often I was left apologizing for doing something that triggered the rage.
I begged for therapy and couples counselling. I began seeing an individual counsellor. We had two disastrous sessions with couples therapists; In both sessions at the therapists coaxing I relayed stories similar to the above, and my wife became very very angry and shut down in the session, refusing to return to the therapist ever again.
I was walking on eggshells around her — her anger was unpredictable and terrifying. I met with a divorce attorney after she threatened in a rage to ‘not come home tonight.’ At the suggestion of the attorney I began documenting daily my interactions with her, as well as my kids, in preparation for possible divorce. I planned to delay the divorce until summer 2015, in order to accommodate my own career considerations.
At the end of last summer, my wife’s physicians wanted to remove one of her ovaries because of irregular cysts that raised some concern for ovarian cancer. When they went in, they found ruptured cysts and severe (undiagnosed) endometriosis. Everything came out -- cysts, uterus, both ovaries, (and thankfully no cancer) and my wife began hormone replacement therapy.
And just like that, the anger ended. The woman with a sunny disposition who I married and had kids with was back. No more walking on eggshells. No more need to document and plan for divorce. Family life again feels really, really good. And it's not that she never gets angry anymore, but when she does get angry it's for more understandable reasons, and she doesn't 'lose her shit' anymore.
Now that we're well clear of this phase, part of me wants to address the dark time; I’m still carrying some pain, fear and sadness from it. I think our older child may be traumatized at best, or think that that’s how married adults interact normally at worst. Part of me is afraid still to address it. Times are good now. Why rock the boat? What will an acknowledgement or apology gain? Am I just trying to stir shit up unnecessarily? Life is busy, with two careers and two young kids, why would I disrupt our current happiness with concerns about stuff that is now such old old news? If I bring this up, how should I phrase things?
Three of the most vivid examples of her unpredictable rage include: (1) Once we were at a restaurant and she became angry after I made a study-habit suggestion. She started muttering / repeating, “you’re an asshole” and kicking me hard in the shins under the restaurant table. Another time, when I was trying to hustle my family out of a restaurant because the parking meter was about to expire she became overwhelmed and start shouting “You’re a dick! You’re an asshole. A fucking asshole!” before storming out with our (terrified) kids (both under age 10) in tow. Another time I asked her to scratch my back after what was a hard day for me, and she responded with a terrifying rage, throwing a salt shaker across the room so hard that it dented the wall. Other statements seared into my memory include, “You’re a great dad but you’re a shitty, shitty husband," and "I just wish you would die," and “You’re a disappointment!”
Once her anger subsided, she never offered acknowledgement or apology for anything said or done. If I asked she either didn't remember what she said (and she did suggest that she 'dissociated' sometimes when angry and didn't really remember what happened) or alternatively she would launch into another rage, ranting about how the previous angry rage was all my fault. Often I was left apologizing for doing something that triggered the rage.
I begged for therapy and couples counselling. I began seeing an individual counsellor. We had two disastrous sessions with couples therapists; In both sessions at the therapists coaxing I relayed stories similar to the above, and my wife became very very angry and shut down in the session, refusing to return to the therapist ever again.
I was walking on eggshells around her — her anger was unpredictable and terrifying. I met with a divorce attorney after she threatened in a rage to ‘not come home tonight.’ At the suggestion of the attorney I began documenting daily my interactions with her, as well as my kids, in preparation for possible divorce. I planned to delay the divorce until summer 2015, in order to accommodate my own career considerations.
At the end of last summer, my wife’s physicians wanted to remove one of her ovaries because of irregular cysts that raised some concern for ovarian cancer. When they went in, they found ruptured cysts and severe (undiagnosed) endometriosis. Everything came out -- cysts, uterus, both ovaries, (and thankfully no cancer) and my wife began hormone replacement therapy.
And just like that, the anger ended. The woman with a sunny disposition who I married and had kids with was back. No more walking on eggshells. No more need to document and plan for divorce. Family life again feels really, really good. And it's not that she never gets angry anymore, but when she does get angry it's for more understandable reasons, and she doesn't 'lose her shit' anymore.
Now that we're well clear of this phase, part of me wants to address the dark time; I’m still carrying some pain, fear and sadness from it. I think our older child may be traumatized at best, or think that that’s how married adults interact normally at worst. Part of me is afraid still to address it. Times are good now. Why rock the boat? What will an acknowledgement or apology gain? Am I just trying to stir shit up unnecessarily? Life is busy, with two careers and two young kids, why would I disrupt our current happiness with concerns about stuff that is now such old old news? If I bring this up, how should I phrase things?
"I still have some unresolved issues from when you were unwell. I will be starting therapy on X date, and I'll be looking into therapy for the children. At some point, you and I will have to talk about it; would you rather do so with a separate therapist or do you want to try having those conversations unaided?"
If she reacts badly to your request, things are not okay. Being mortified is understandable, but refusing to cooperate with what you need for your mental health is not.
Seeming okay isn't and should not be enough. Refusing to acknowledge it is not firm healthy ground for a relationship.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:17 PM on April 22, 2015 [27 favorites]
If she reacts badly to your request, things are not okay. Being mortified is understandable, but refusing to cooperate with what you need for your mental health is not.
Seeming okay isn't and should not be enough. Refusing to acknowledge it is not firm healthy ground for a relationship.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:17 PM on April 22, 2015 [27 favorites]
Well, your current happiness and the current happiness of at least one of your children is being impacted by the fact that your wife became an abusive, rage-filled person who forced everyone to walk on eggshells. And, while it may have been due to a major hormone imbalance as well as other health-related issues, it does not excuse her from being held accountable for inexcusable and damaging behavior. It seems that you're still walking on eggshells. Maybe not about everything, but certainly about this.
Tell her that you will start therapy for yourself and also pursue it for your oldest child. Tell her that you'd like to discuss what happened when she's ready, and that you do have the expectation that it will be discussed and resolved at some point. Tell her that the aftermath of her extreme anger is still causing you significant pain and that you're concerned about what the children witnessed. If she reacts poorly and resists acknowledging her abusive behavior and also refuses to apologize to you and address this with the kids, you know that the problem, while currently hibernating, is still there. At that point, I'd return to joint counseling to help work your way through it.
posted by quince at 3:26 PM on April 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
Tell her that you will start therapy for yourself and also pursue it for your oldest child. Tell her that you'd like to discuss what happened when she's ready, and that you do have the expectation that it will be discussed and resolved at some point. Tell her that the aftermath of her extreme anger is still causing you significant pain and that you're concerned about what the children witnessed. If she reacts poorly and resists acknowledging her abusive behavior and also refuses to apologize to you and address this with the kids, you know that the problem, while currently hibernating, is still there. At that point, I'd return to joint counseling to help work your way through it.
posted by quince at 3:26 PM on April 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
You have held your tongue until now. You have seen that your wife's improvement coincided with ovarian cancer treatment and hormone replacement therapy. If you are still having trouble letting the past go, you too may be traumatized as well as your children. These things will not go away until you deal with them and get some kind of closure, and your children too. I think family counselling may be needed for your whole family in order to heal from your family's rough patch, and certainly it's time to help your children as it seems that they're entering puberty soon, and will need to be establishing relationships of their own. It would be a shame if any of this became an impediment to them in forming loving relationships in the future.
posted by halhurst at 3:30 PM on April 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by halhurst at 3:30 PM on April 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Have you heard of (perhaps she was tested for) an ovarian teratoma, or the book Brain on Fire? They both describe psychosis that is tied to brain inflammation arising from tumors. These cases may be quite relevant, or they could just help you differentiate your real wife from the monster that raised its head.
I think continued processing, as your understanding of it and your memories evolve, of those events would help you and her.
posted by Dashy at 3:45 PM on April 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think continued processing, as your understanding of it and your memories evolve, of those events would help you and her.
posted by Dashy at 3:45 PM on April 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Get some individual counseling as to why you are unwilling to see the rage your wife suffered from was indeed, connected to a medical condition. I am surprised you are not aware of that.
It sounds to me like he's perfectly aware of that. It's still allowed to hurt.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:00 PM on April 22, 2015 [77 favorites]
It sounds to me like he's perfectly aware of that. It's still allowed to hurt.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:00 PM on April 22, 2015 [77 favorites]
People still hold some responsibility for their behavior regardless of whatever medical or psychological conditions are the cause. That's not to say you get to hold it against her but the negative affects it had on your life do need to be acknowledged. The anger is done for her but the pain it caused you and your children is not. Bring it up neutrally. Talk about it as a "bad thing that happened" not a "bad thing she did."
posted by AtoBtoA at 4:00 PM on April 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by AtoBtoA at 4:00 PM on April 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
If you want to stay married, and if you want things to keep on improving, do not ask for an apology. What for? You're her husband. You've already documented in case of a divorce, so you're protected there. But as long as you are her husband, it's "for better or for worse, through sickness and in health."
Your wife was sick. Then she got better. If the behaviour is no longer an issue at this point and time, you had best move on and look to the future.
Now, if the behaviour returns, be sure to set firm boundaries and to communicate your feelings and your wants very clearly. And continue to document.
But asking for an apology at this stage just seems like dredging up old stuff. Forget about it. Love your wife. Live life.
posted by Nevin at 4:05 PM on April 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
Your wife was sick. Then she got better. If the behaviour is no longer an issue at this point and time, you had best move on and look to the future.
Now, if the behaviour returns, be sure to set firm boundaries and to communicate your feelings and your wants very clearly. And continue to document.
But asking for an apology at this stage just seems like dredging up old stuff. Forget about it. Love your wife. Live life.
posted by Nevin at 4:05 PM on April 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
I don't mean to dismiss your feelings, but imagine that while she was on fire she made the room too hot for you to bear.
She went though a lot of trauma and I think asking her to apologize now could REALLY hurt and diminish what she was going though and what she then went though with the surgery, etc.
She could be harboring feeling of guilt and confusion and embarrassment over her behavior.
I would work on understanding that this appears to be from a medical condition which made her suffer greatly, along with your family.
If my husband was suffering from the flu and threw up on the floor and I had to deal with that mess, I would not then ask him to apologize.
To get me through this I would focus on how she was suffering and the joy that it is over.
posted by beccaj at 4:15 PM on April 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
She went though a lot of trauma and I think asking her to apologize now could REALLY hurt and diminish what she was going though and what she then went though with the surgery, etc.
She could be harboring feeling of guilt and confusion and embarrassment over her behavior.
I would work on understanding that this appears to be from a medical condition which made her suffer greatly, along with your family.
If my husband was suffering from the flu and threw up on the floor and I had to deal with that mess, I would not then ask him to apologize.
To get me through this I would focus on how she was suffering and the joy that it is over.
posted by beccaj at 4:15 PM on April 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
You know, love is not a zero-sum game. You can both have been traumatized by this terrible health condition, as well as your kids.
My recommendation since you are the one asking is to first approach her as your loved wife and maybe start with how lucky everyone is it wasn't ovarian cancer and that you are so glad she is okay. Then I love the phrasing above...let her know you'd like to talk about it. Acknowledge that for her, it must have been strange to be so out of control and for the cure to be such an immediate return to her regular self. Then of course your feelings, and those of your kids, count too.
I wouldn't demand an apology. I myself would ask her to just listen, and share from your heart what you felt like then -- the actual feelings, like scared/embarrassed/confused/abandoned -- and, over time, how you feel now -- uncertain, a little abandoned in not talking about it. If you can, try to walk the line between the strongest language and minimizing. You might want to write a few feelings out. Remember that you have years ahead, so if she can hear 10% now and 10% in two weeks...it will be fine. Ask her to join with you in making sure the kids have what they need to get secure again.
I am so sorry your family went through this.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:37 PM on April 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
My recommendation since you are the one asking is to first approach her as your loved wife and maybe start with how lucky everyone is it wasn't ovarian cancer and that you are so glad she is okay. Then I love the phrasing above...let her know you'd like to talk about it. Acknowledge that for her, it must have been strange to be so out of control and for the cure to be such an immediate return to her regular self. Then of course your feelings, and those of your kids, count too.
I wouldn't demand an apology. I myself would ask her to just listen, and share from your heart what you felt like then -- the actual feelings, like scared/embarrassed/confused/abandoned -- and, over time, how you feel now -- uncertain, a little abandoned in not talking about it. If you can, try to walk the line between the strongest language and minimizing. You might want to write a few feelings out. Remember that you have years ahead, so if she can hear 10% now and 10% in two weeks...it will be fine. Ask her to join with you in making sure the kids have what they need to get secure again.
I am so sorry your family went through this.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:37 PM on April 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
I would pile on with the people who say don't ask for an apology for something that was not really under her control but at the same time it would be good to be able to have a conversation about it and to share some of what it was like for you (especially if you can be as non-blaming about it as possible)
I would start with offering to listen and learn about what it was like for her. Does she remember she remember any of what happened? What was it like when the rage took over? This will also give you a sense of how willing she is share with you. Be sensitive to the fact that she may have a lot of shame and guilt about her behavior and if this makes her feel defensive, she may want to avoid the conversation or be focused on justifying herself.
After listening, you can say "that was a really hard time for all of us. I would like to let you a little bit of what it was like for me..." If you can do that, you may feel like you got the acknowledgement you are wanting - to be heard and maybe to have her say "yes it was hard for all of us - you as well as me"
If you do talk about it, I would use language that separates her (as in her 'real' self) from the illness induced rages. For example, instead of saying 'when you got angry..." I might say "when the illness induced anger showed up..."
Couples counseling might help you have these conversations. I would be gentle and non blaming in approaching it - "I love so much and I am so happy to have the normal you back but I am having trouble just letting go of the past. I would like to talk about it with you but I don't know if I can do it in a loving way that wouldn't be hurtful to you without some outside help. Would you be willing to do a few sessions with a couples counselor to help us have that conversation?"
If you think it would be better to do individual therapy first, I would also try to make as unthreatening as possible. "I'm so happy that things are better but I'm having trouble letting go of what happened so I'm going to get some help so we can have a better marriage."
For your child, if you want to talk about therapy, I would focus on the current behaviors that you are observing without going into the fact that you believe her behavior is the cause. No one wants to be the bad parents that harms their child and, anyway, kids are complicated and it might be something completely different.
Good luck!
posted by metahawk at 4:39 PM on April 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I would start with offering to listen and learn about what it was like for her. Does she remember she remember any of what happened? What was it like when the rage took over? This will also give you a sense of how willing she is share with you. Be sensitive to the fact that she may have a lot of shame and guilt about her behavior and if this makes her feel defensive, she may want to avoid the conversation or be focused on justifying herself.
After listening, you can say "that was a really hard time for all of us. I would like to let you a little bit of what it was like for me..." If you can do that, you may feel like you got the acknowledgement you are wanting - to be heard and maybe to have her say "yes it was hard for all of us - you as well as me"
If you do talk about it, I would use language that separates her (as in her 'real' self) from the illness induced rages. For example, instead of saying 'when you got angry..." I might say "when the illness induced anger showed up..."
Couples counseling might help you have these conversations. I would be gentle and non blaming in approaching it - "I love so much and I am so happy to have the normal you back but I am having trouble just letting go of the past. I would like to talk about it with you but I don't know if I can do it in a loving way that wouldn't be hurtful to you without some outside help. Would you be willing to do a few sessions with a couples counselor to help us have that conversation?"
If you think it would be better to do individual therapy first, I would also try to make as unthreatening as possible. "I'm so happy that things are better but I'm having trouble letting go of what happened so I'm going to get some help so we can have a better marriage."
For your child, if you want to talk about therapy, I would focus on the current behaviors that you are observing without going into the fact that you believe her behavior is the cause. No one wants to be the bad parents that harms their child and, anyway, kids are complicated and it might be something completely different.
Good luck!
posted by metahawk at 4:39 PM on April 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Short answer: No, you should not ask for an apology or acknowledgement.
I second everything beccaj just said.
I also will add: did you ever diminish what your wife was going through, suggest she might be imagining things or exaggerating them, or decline to support her when she may have asked for assistance during the two year period she was sick? Because if you did (and I'm guessing you did, because you did it just above in your ask) while your wife's rage and acting out crossed a line, her baseline assessment that you were an asshole and not a good husband was correct.
Your wife was in incredible pain and discomfort during the whole time this was going on. She was probably terrified both at not knowing what was happening and at the fact that many of her doctors and even her own husband didn't believe her.
Think about how that would feel from her angle. She may have been as ready to divorce you. And if you ask for an apology from her now, she may well decide that how she saw you when she was sick was correct, and to go right ahead.
So go now and apologize to your wife for not believing her about how sick she was for so long. Tell her you'll believe her and support her in the future. Tell her that you plan on seeing a therapist to work through some of this. Then do that. Once you've given that a couple of months of real work, if you're still feeling some discussion with your wife is necessary, then you can strategize about that with your therapist.
Good luck!
posted by susiswimmer at 4:43 PM on April 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
I second everything beccaj just said.
I also will add: did you ever diminish what your wife was going through, suggest she might be imagining things or exaggerating them, or decline to support her when she may have asked for assistance during the two year period she was sick? Because if you did (and I'm guessing you did, because you did it just above in your ask) while your wife's rage and acting out crossed a line, her baseline assessment that you were an asshole and not a good husband was correct.
Your wife was in incredible pain and discomfort during the whole time this was going on. She was probably terrified both at not knowing what was happening and at the fact that many of her doctors and even her own husband didn't believe her.
Think about how that would feel from her angle. She may have been as ready to divorce you. And if you ask for an apology from her now, she may well decide that how she saw you when she was sick was correct, and to go right ahead.
So go now and apologize to your wife for not believing her about how sick she was for so long. Tell her you'll believe her and support her in the future. Tell her that you plan on seeing a therapist to work through some of this. Then do that. Once you've given that a couple of months of real work, if you're still feeling some discussion with your wife is necessary, then you can strategize about that with your therapist.
Good luck!
posted by susiswimmer at 4:43 PM on April 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
I think the OP was on the receiving end of abuse from his wife, and just because things are OK now I don't think he is out of line if he wants to discuss his side of this experience with his wife.
I have a very close friend (whom I've been friends with for 40+ years) who has had a host of PTSD-related mental health issues crop up in the last 10 years. He is finally (!!!) in a good spot and is taking good care of himself and those he loves. Hooray! But he spent about ten years on an emotional roller coaster that swung wildly between being OK-ish and being very un-well, and in that time he hurt everyone close to him in one way or another, mostly though words and but also occasionally by breaking things while in a rage. I was on the receiving end of a few of his tirades and it was incredibly painful, so I can only imagine what it was like for his wife and kids who took a lot more of this from him. As I said, he's under good care now and has the right mix of meds and therapy, so in that sense he's "cured", but it was a very dark period in his life and in the lives of those around him. One of the things he has done to try and close that chapter of his life is acknowledge what he did and apologize to the people he hurt for his abusive behavior. It doesn't change what he did, but it does salve the wounds and allow everyone to gain closure.
OP, I do not think you are out of line in wanting your wife to apologize for the abusive behavior she directed at you and (indirectly?) at your kids, even if that behavior was apparently due to a previously unknown medical cause. That said, only you know your wife, and only you can judge if she is emotionally strong enough to have this discussion without relapsing, or without the discussion causing her an undue amount of pain and shame. I think some pain and shame are going to be inevitable, but it is really for you to do the math and figure out if the emotional cost of getting her to acknowledge and apologize is worth it. Some say it isn't worth it and you should let and that sleeping dogs lie. I say that sunlight is a strong disinfectant, and for your own healing needs you require some closure from her, even if it is only, "I was sick without realizing it and this lead me to say some very mean and hurtful things, most of which I don't remember. I didn't really mean them, and I'm sorry I caused you and the kids as much pain as I did."
I would want that sort of apology if I were in your situation, OP, but if I had to choose between getting that apology and possibly risking the currently nice status quo vs. not getting an apology and remaining hurt, but continuing to enjoy a nice, calm, loving, and mutually respectful relationship with my wife going forward, the prospect of better relations going forward (but with no apology) probably wins. It's a tough call, though. A very tough call.
posted by mosk at 4:43 PM on April 22, 2015 [35 favorites]
I have a very close friend (whom I've been friends with for 40+ years) who has had a host of PTSD-related mental health issues crop up in the last 10 years. He is finally (!!!) in a good spot and is taking good care of himself and those he loves. Hooray! But he spent about ten years on an emotional roller coaster that swung wildly between being OK-ish and being very un-well, and in that time he hurt everyone close to him in one way or another, mostly though words and but also occasionally by breaking things while in a rage. I was on the receiving end of a few of his tirades and it was incredibly painful, so I can only imagine what it was like for his wife and kids who took a lot more of this from him. As I said, he's under good care now and has the right mix of meds and therapy, so in that sense he's "cured", but it was a very dark period in his life and in the lives of those around him. One of the things he has done to try and close that chapter of his life is acknowledge what he did and apologize to the people he hurt for his abusive behavior. It doesn't change what he did, but it does salve the wounds and allow everyone to gain closure.
OP, I do not think you are out of line in wanting your wife to apologize for the abusive behavior she directed at you and (indirectly?) at your kids, even if that behavior was apparently due to a previously unknown medical cause. That said, only you know your wife, and only you can judge if she is emotionally strong enough to have this discussion without relapsing, or without the discussion causing her an undue amount of pain and shame. I think some pain and shame are going to be inevitable, but it is really for you to do the math and figure out if the emotional cost of getting her to acknowledge and apologize is worth it. Some say it isn't worth it and you should let and that sleeping dogs lie. I say that sunlight is a strong disinfectant, and for your own healing needs you require some closure from her, even if it is only, "I was sick without realizing it and this lead me to say some very mean and hurtful things, most of which I don't remember. I didn't really mean them, and I'm sorry I caused you and the kids as much pain as I did."
I would want that sort of apology if I were in your situation, OP, but if I had to choose between getting that apology and possibly risking the currently nice status quo vs. not getting an apology and remaining hurt, but continuing to enjoy a nice, calm, loving, and mutually respectful relationship with my wife going forward, the prospect of better relations going forward (but with no apology) probably wins. It's a tough call, though. A very tough call.
posted by mosk at 4:43 PM on April 22, 2015 [35 favorites]
Also, OP, people get PTSD from medical crises, and that's not just for the person with the medical condition but anyone around them who was affected or had to be caretakers or were just frightened/uprooted by it (as, for example, your children were). (People also suffer PTSD from domestic abuse. Which you experienced. It doesn't matter if she was on drugs or raging hormones or just an asshole.)
A good therapist should be able to do an assessment with you for that.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:59 PM on April 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
A good therapist should be able to do an assessment with you for that.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:59 PM on April 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
I have medically diagnosed PMDD and serious hormonal challenges and other chemical stuff going on, and I think you are absolutely within your rights to talk to her about how difficult this was for you and I think that you should ask her again to go to counseling. I think you need to process what sounds like a really horrific time and I'm so sorry you had to deal with that. I also think that as a mom, displaying that sort of behavior to a child, requires ownership of that behavior and a desire to make it right. I cannot think of any occasion where that is not required once the person is aware of the inappropriateness of the behavior.
If I have a freak out, I own that thing. If I have a tantrum, it's a tantrum. If I overreact, I say I overreacted. I trust my husband to tell me gently "I think you are not thinking straight" and I trust him more than I trust my own brain. I know gaslighting and I know manipulative and when he says that to me, I know to sit and take it deeply seriously, because he doesn't say it often and on every single occasion he's been right.
That said. When you live with a lot of hormonal challenges one thing you learn is that truth and fiction can coexist. It can be absolutely true that your partner is distracted and not paying appropriate attention to the relationship, but it can be absolutely false that they are a shitty partner and never pay attention to you.
So there might be underlying truth to some things that she's had a problem with and those things might be worth paying attention to and talking through--it is important to be open to that too while understanding that calling your partner an asshole in front of your kids (or not, for that matter) is not appropriate.
It really sounds like you need to rebuild intimacy, the intimacy that comes from sharing the truth. And your truth counts as much as hers does.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 6:00 PM on April 22, 2015 [23 favorites]
If I have a freak out, I own that thing. If I have a tantrum, it's a tantrum. If I overreact, I say I overreacted. I trust my husband to tell me gently "I think you are not thinking straight" and I trust him more than I trust my own brain. I know gaslighting and I know manipulative and when he says that to me, I know to sit and take it deeply seriously, because he doesn't say it often and on every single occasion he's been right.
That said. When you live with a lot of hormonal challenges one thing you learn is that truth and fiction can coexist. It can be absolutely true that your partner is distracted and not paying appropriate attention to the relationship, but it can be absolutely false that they are a shitty partner and never pay attention to you.
So there might be underlying truth to some things that she's had a problem with and those things might be worth paying attention to and talking through--it is important to be open to that too while understanding that calling your partner an asshole in front of your kids (or not, for that matter) is not appropriate.
It really sounds like you need to rebuild intimacy, the intimacy that comes from sharing the truth. And your truth counts as much as hers does.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 6:00 PM on April 22, 2015 [23 favorites]
I don't think you want an apology so much as an acknowledgement and an understanding that you won't tolerate this behavior going forward. Sounds like she had a good justification for her anger, but that in no way makes her abusive behavior acceptable. It falls to you to take care of yourself so that if she starts acting this way in the future you can recognize and act on it, instead of reacting to each outburst.
posted by disconnect at 6:05 PM on April 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by disconnect at 6:05 PM on April 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Please go see a therapist to help you deal with your trauma from your wife's behaviour. My kid is mentally ill and her behaviour was traumatising for me in a variety of ways. The fact that she was ill at the time didn't make my trauma any less real. But I got over it (and she has matured and her behaviour massively improved, luckily) in large measure with personal therapy. YMMV. I think you should talk to your wife. But not without tools and skills to make it easier for both of you to have that ongoing discussion. Because it's going to take more than a one-time talk. Does she know how upsetting her behaviour was, for example? So upsetting that you planned to divorce her? She may not need to know that. But it's one of the things you could discuss with a good therapist. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 6:27 PM on April 22, 2015
posted by Bella Donna at 6:27 PM on April 22, 2015
What are you hoping to gain from this? What is an apology going to do for you?
There are many emotional states from which to demand an apology- you might be rational and clear-headed and simply worried in a matter-of-fact way that she does not realize it was not okay and might do it again. Or, you could be sulking and vindictive and want to get back at her, humbling her and making her admit you are right and she deserves chastisment and penance.
I think you know which one is healthier for both of you. And your kids. I would get very, very clear with yourself first and resolve the emotional bits within your own psyche before bringing it up.
posted by quincunx at 6:30 PM on April 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
There are many emotional states from which to demand an apology- you might be rational and clear-headed and simply worried in a matter-of-fact way that she does not realize it was not okay and might do it again. Or, you could be sulking and vindictive and want to get back at her, humbling her and making her admit you are right and she deserves chastisment and penance.
I think you know which one is healthier for both of you. And your kids. I would get very, very clear with yourself first and resolve the emotional bits within your own psyche before bringing it up.
posted by quincunx at 6:30 PM on April 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
There are often several stages of healing from trauma. The initial stage is often either acting out or shutting down (or both), then there's generally a return to seeming normalcy, where the traumatized person starts to feel more stable and strong and "normal." That stage can last for a long time, and for some people that's the conclusion of the healing process. For many others, however, once that stability feels real and once the traumatized person feels safe again, any pushed-down feelings of anger and fear and helplessness and sadness might start to emerge again, because it's finally safe to address them.
I'm biased because I'm a therapist, but in my experience, people in that stage where older feelings are resurfacing tend to do best by processing those feelings with a third party (like a therapist) and then deciding whether and how they'd like to confront the person who may be responsible for the trauma. That gives the traumatized person a place to vent all their pent-up anger and sadness without having to worry about hurting someone else's feelings, and a place to get the emotional validation they need while doing so, and then a place to work out how to approach the person responsible for the trauma in an appropriate and realistic way, depending on the traumatized person's goals and expectations.
I'm sorry this happened to you and that you're still carrying around this pain. I think you should absolutely talk to someone about it, but I'm not sure the person to whom you should talk right now is your wife. Eventually, yes, but maybe not until you've talked to a therapist or super-trusted loved one outside your family.
posted by jaguar at 6:40 PM on April 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
I'm biased because I'm a therapist, but in my experience, people in that stage where older feelings are resurfacing tend to do best by processing those feelings with a third party (like a therapist) and then deciding whether and how they'd like to confront the person who may be responsible for the trauma. That gives the traumatized person a place to vent all their pent-up anger and sadness without having to worry about hurting someone else's feelings, and a place to get the emotional validation they need while doing so, and then a place to work out how to approach the person responsible for the trauma in an appropriate and realistic way, depending on the traumatized person's goals and expectations.
I'm sorry this happened to you and that you're still carrying around this pain. I think you should absolutely talk to someone about it, but I'm not sure the person to whom you should talk right now is your wife. Eventually, yes, but maybe not until you've talked to a therapist or super-trusted loved one outside your family.
posted by jaguar at 6:40 PM on April 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
I don't know what the right answer is, but I think it's natural to want for her to admit how much she hurt you and her kids, and for you to feel like she understands that it was wrong. It's hard to just move on from something like that and let it go, and you may always resent it and have trouble fully letting go out of it without this acknowledgment. You never want for people you love to be able to casually hurt you in such deep ways and you want to know that's not how she is. That being said, it may very well be a difficult thing for her to confront herself and admit. Just as it was traumatizing for you, I'm sure she feels some shame and regret on her end, even if it is true she was disassociating from her own angry outbursts. So, this may be a difficult thing to discuss for that reason. But perhaps it would help you to know if she does feel the shame and regret over her past actions, and maybe it would help her to know if you can forgive her and not continue to see her as the person she once was. Maybe then you can both feel like you're free to move on.
You probably do need to talk to your children, in my opinion. I am not on the psychology field, so I would probably consultant with a therapist, but it might be worth you and your wife taking a joint approach to say, mom had a medical issue that made her act in a way that was inappropriate and not how you treat people you love, and she can apologize to your kids. The kid may want or need therapy to work through it -- it's hard for your home, which should be your safe haven, to be rife with unpredictable abuse.
I would encourage you to try to figure out what exactly medically was causing her problems and why they've gone away, especially as you address what happened in the past and think about moving forward.
posted by AppleTurnover at 7:00 PM on April 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
You probably do need to talk to your children, in my opinion. I am not on the psychology field, so I would probably consultant with a therapist, but it might be worth you and your wife taking a joint approach to say, mom had a medical issue that made her act in a way that was inappropriate and not how you treat people you love, and she can apologize to your kids. The kid may want or need therapy to work through it -- it's hard for your home, which should be your safe haven, to be rife with unpredictable abuse.
I would encourage you to try to figure out what exactly medically was causing her problems and why they've gone away, especially as you address what happened in the past and think about moving forward.
posted by AppleTurnover at 7:00 PM on April 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's a bit like manslaughter and murder. The same outcome, different causes and responsibility. But what matters isn't getting some kind of tit-for-tat parity of pain, it's acknowledging hurts and damage and figuring out how to heal them and build up a store of trust and compassionate love that was used up during your wife's illness by both of you.
Go for the therapist and work on seeing this as an illness with harm done by accident. If your wife refuses to acknowledge and remedy the damage (ditto for you), that's a new problem to deal with.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:20 PM on April 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Go for the therapist and work on seeing this as an illness with harm done by accident. If your wife refuses to acknowledge and remedy the damage (ditto for you), that's a new problem to deal with.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:20 PM on April 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think you do need to talk with your wife and acknowledge how this felt for you. You might also mention that you would like her to discuss the condition and her changed behavior with your children if she hasn't already; you can both sit with your children and talk about how the interaction at the time was not normal and not how you choose to love each other.
But I don't think you ought to ask for an apology. You're healing right now, but so is she. Asking for an apology sounds very rigid, accusing, and unsupportive. You know there's a reason for her behavioral changes, and you can choose to have a discussion about what happens if it ever comes up again, but you ought to be forgiving and loving for now, just as she should be with you. This is what marriage is. I'm so glad she's healthy now and think you both have some work to do on the marriage, but it can absolutely be done.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 7:43 PM on April 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
But I don't think you ought to ask for an apology. You're healing right now, but so is she. Asking for an apology sounds very rigid, accusing, and unsupportive. You know there's a reason for her behavioral changes, and you can choose to have a discussion about what happens if it ever comes up again, but you ought to be forgiving and loving for now, just as she should be with you. This is what marriage is. I'm so glad she's healthy now and think you both have some work to do on the marriage, but it can absolutely be done.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 7:43 PM on April 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
ok here comes an unorthodox and illegal suggestion: if you can get your hands on some Ecstasy, and roll with your wife, you will probably find that this discussion can happen with ease and love and you can have it and move on.
If not, well, I don't think "asking for an apology" is exactly the way to frame it, but I bet you could probably get what you need in terms of acknowledgment if you ask her how she's feeling, and how it compares to how she felt before, and about her experience of the change, and how it felt to have the ovaries etc out, and what she remembers, and tell her your truth of what you experienced, and how grateful you are to have the real her back.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:17 PM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
If not, well, I don't think "asking for an apology" is exactly the way to frame it, but I bet you could probably get what you need in terms of acknowledgment if you ask her how she's feeling, and how it compares to how she felt before, and about her experience of the change, and how it felt to have the ovaries etc out, and what she remembers, and tell her your truth of what you experienced, and how grateful you are to have the real her back.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:17 PM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wonder - if you had a giant cyst/tumor near your testicles that you weren't aware of but you were living with constant, intense feelings of rage and anger that you couldn't even explain to yourself but nevertheless those furious feelings overruled everything else in your thoughts - you just blew up for no reason, called people you love names and even threw things or hit walls or drove too fast in a rage -
then you began to have some pain where you certainly didn't want to have pain at all and you finally went to a doctor about it and he found the cyst, high up where you couldn't feel it, and it was removed surgically and you had to wait for test results to be sure it wasn't testicular cancer and it finally came back okay and, oddly enough,
all your rage and anger had disappeared like a miracle when you had the surgery!
How then would you feel if your wife came back months later and told you she wanted you to acknowledge your ill treatment of her - all those times you lashed out at her and she didn't deserve it, etc. - but you knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that you were not the one in control of that behavior - it was strictly from increased testosterone levels due to the cyst/tumor -
how would you feel about apologizing to her?
Let it go, for heaven's sake, and be glad she's back and she doesn't have cancer and you've weathered a great and horrible storm. It's over for you - let it be over for her.
posted by aryma at 10:47 PM on April 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
then you began to have some pain where you certainly didn't want to have pain at all and you finally went to a doctor about it and he found the cyst, high up where you couldn't feel it, and it was removed surgically and you had to wait for test results to be sure it wasn't testicular cancer and it finally came back okay and, oddly enough,
all your rage and anger had disappeared like a miracle when you had the surgery!
How then would you feel if your wife came back months later and told you she wanted you to acknowledge your ill treatment of her - all those times you lashed out at her and she didn't deserve it, etc. - but you knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that you were not the one in control of that behavior - it was strictly from increased testosterone levels due to the cyst/tumor -
how would you feel about apologizing to her?
Let it go, for heaven's sake, and be glad she's back and she doesn't have cancer and you've weathered a great and horrible storm. It's over for you - let it be over for her.
posted by aryma at 10:47 PM on April 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Alcoholics aren't necessarily in control of their behavior either, and yet they're often encouraged to reach out to those their behavior has harmed as part of their own recovery process.
I agree with the first several comments. It's really terrific that the OP's wife is better, but her well being is not the only one that's important. The OP stuck by his wife during a devastatingly difficult situation, during which he endured abuse that doubtless would provoke choruses of DTMFA if it were presented as an ongoing situation, and he is entitled to at least a discussion of what he and the family went thru while his wife was struggling with a situation beyond her control. Refusing to acknowledge it can't be healthy.
I like the suggestion to begin with an acknowledgment and celebration of her recovery, then follow it up by just telling her that you'd like to have a discussion when she's ready. Ideally the mere suggestion would prompt a spontaneous apology from a loving person who is horrified by her behavior but not sure how or if she should bring it up. I hope you don't focus on an apology as being required to the exclusion of her hearing and acknowledging that everyone in the family suffered thru her illness together. At the very least, though, she can prepare herself to have the discussion you need to have.
I am so sorry for what you all went thru, and truly happy your wife is better. I hope you all are able to get past this situation and heal together.
posted by Gelatin at 6:05 AM on April 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I agree with the first several comments. It's really terrific that the OP's wife is better, but her well being is not the only one that's important. The OP stuck by his wife during a devastatingly difficult situation, during which he endured abuse that doubtless would provoke choruses of DTMFA if it were presented as an ongoing situation, and he is entitled to at least a discussion of what he and the family went thru while his wife was struggling with a situation beyond her control. Refusing to acknowledge it can't be healthy.
I like the suggestion to begin with an acknowledgment and celebration of her recovery, then follow it up by just telling her that you'd like to have a discussion when she's ready. Ideally the mere suggestion would prompt a spontaneous apology from a loving person who is horrified by her behavior but not sure how or if she should bring it up. I hope you don't focus on an apology as being required to the exclusion of her hearing and acknowledging that everyone in the family suffered thru her illness together. At the very least, though, she can prepare herself to have the discussion you need to have.
I am so sorry for what you all went thru, and truly happy your wife is better. I hope you all are able to get past this situation and heal together.
posted by Gelatin at 6:05 AM on April 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I really think you need to discuss this, confidentially, with someone completely removed from the situation. Your wife is no doubt aware of her behaviour but, as others have mentioned above, she was going through some incredibly major shit and that can result in all kinds of atypical behaviour. Give all the facts to a third party who can help you process it objectively.
If you can, you need to give her lots of time and when you do decide to talk to her about it, you need to be able to approach the subject in as neutral a way as possible. This could be years away.
Separately, you should talk to your child if she is upset, encourage her to trust her mum again and to know that her mum loves her but she is a person who has good days and bad days, just like we all do, and that the bad days are absolutely not the child's fault.
I'm sure there'll come a day when you can talk about this without it being like prodding an open wound. It just might not be right now.
posted by h00py at 6:30 AM on April 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you can, you need to give her lots of time and when you do decide to talk to her about it, you need to be able to approach the subject in as neutral a way as possible. This could be years away.
Separately, you should talk to your child if she is upset, encourage her to trust her mum again and to know that her mum loves her but she is a person who has good days and bad days, just like we all do, and that the bad days are absolutely not the child's fault.
I'm sure there'll come a day when you can talk about this without it being like prodding an open wound. It just might not be right now.
posted by h00py at 6:30 AM on April 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't know whether you can or should get an apology in which your wife accepts responsibility for what she did, but I think eventually you may get an acknowledgment from her that she regrets what happened and knows it hurt you. In any event, I think talking about what happened would probably be good for both of you. However, you need to find the right time to raise the issue (maybe not quite yet?) and try to do so in a non-judgmental way.
I believe some of the people above are being much too harsh on you by (1) assuming, without evidence, that you really were horrible to her and (2) thinking that you somehow aren't entitled to your own anger and trauma over what happened and how you were treated because there is a medical explanation. You had every right to be hurt by how you were treated and those emotions don't magically disappear after a medical problem was, thankfully, discovered. For your own emotional health and the future of your relationship with your wife, I think you do need to deal with your pain and getting some acknowledgment from your wife may help you, if she is up to it. Please don't listen to the people who are trying to shame you for your feelings.
posted by Area Man at 6:42 AM on April 23, 2015 [20 favorites]
I believe some of the people above are being much too harsh on you by (1) assuming, without evidence, that you really were horrible to her and (2) thinking that you somehow aren't entitled to your own anger and trauma over what happened and how you were treated because there is a medical explanation. You had every right to be hurt by how you were treated and those emotions don't magically disappear after a medical problem was, thankfully, discovered. For your own emotional health and the future of your relationship with your wife, I think you do need to deal with your pain and getting some acknowledgment from your wife may help you, if she is up to it. Please don't listen to the people who are trying to shame you for your feelings.
posted by Area Man at 6:42 AM on April 23, 2015 [20 favorites]
I would phrase it as talking about how things are good now, and then steer into talking about how things had not been good.
eg I'm so happy with our marriage these days, I'm not sure you realized how scary it was for us when you were sick. The power of that (cyst etc) over your moods had a big impact and I'm really glad we made it through that, because things are good. It's really good to have the loving woman I married back, and I know the kids can tell the difference. Have considered talking to them about what was going on and why you were sometimes so angry?
By suggesting that she talk to them, you're also getting her to talk to you.
posted by aimedwander at 7:06 AM on April 23, 2015
eg I'm so happy with our marriage these days, I'm not sure you realized how scary it was for us when you were sick. The power of that (cyst etc) over your moods had a big impact and I'm really glad we made it through that, because things are good. It's really good to have the loving woman I married back, and I know the kids can tell the difference. Have considered talking to them about what was going on and why you were sometimes so angry?
By suggesting that she talk to them, you're also getting her to talk to you.
posted by aimedwander at 7:06 AM on April 23, 2015
Another vote for not asking for an apology. I think that conversation could go NOT in the direction you intended (getting an apology, reassurance and closure) and feelings could get hurt. I'm not sure if you told her you were gathering evidence for a divorce, but if she knew the extent to which you where making plans to leave her while she was dealing with a very serious undiagnosed illness- it could really hurt her and undo a lot of the progress it sounds like you have made. I know how you were treated was wrong, not okay, ruined that part of your life... But sometimes the best way forward is to find closure with yourself and let sleeping dogs lie.
posted by pairofshades at 7:55 AM on April 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by pairofshades at 7:55 AM on April 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
"medical intervention for an unrelated issue"
Also, why are you describing this as an unrelated issue. It sounds like the root of it all.
posted by pairofshades at 7:57 AM on April 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also, why are you describing this as an unrelated issue. It sounds like the root of it all.
posted by pairofshades at 7:57 AM on April 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Every once in a while, there is an AskMe response that completely blows my mind.
OP, you are being taken out behind the woodshed right now, and I really cannot rightly understand why, without coming to some very uncharitable conclusions about my fellow Mefites. So let's just skip it.
In an attempt to address your question--
Part of me very much wants to talk to her about this episode. I hope for apology and acknowledgement; I fear that it wouldn't be offered.
Yeah man, that makes a lot of sense. Even if what you want is more acknowledgement than apology (which, I'm not you and I don't know) I think living under the conditions you describe, clearly being under a tremendous amount of emotional and mental stress, and having children to worry about to boot, who are not only being affected now but, as you rightly point out, very likely will be affected in the future-- I'd want my partner to validate my experience as well. You lived her experience with her, as far as I can tell, and she's done a pretty great job of refusing to live yours with you, and that isn't fair.
As an aside, even if you are somehow able to summon the herculean strength to just "get over it" and be glad your wife is back (like I said: let's skip it), your children should not be expected to be able or required to follow suit, and discussing how that time may have affected them and their perception of how relationships work is so obviously worth doing that it really, really, really bothers me that no one is speaking to that.
Why rock the boat? What will an acknowledgement or apology gain?
Potentially? Closure, validation, and restored intimacy for you. For her, an awareness of the effects her illness and response to it had on the life the two of you share together, as well as the pain her family experienced as a result. If I were your wife, *I* would want that, particularly if I truly did not feel like I was in control of my response during that time.
Am I just trying to stir shit up unnecessarily? Life is busy, with two careers and two young kids, why would I disrupt our current happiness with concerns about stuff that is now such old old news?
You'd do it because even though it happened in the past, it's still affecting you, which means it's still affecting your relationship, and almost certainly affecting your children, their perception of the two of you, and their understanding of how healthy romantic relationships work generally.
If I bring this up, how should I phrase things?
I'm with jaguar here; her (screw it. I need pronouns) second paragraph is pretty much my feeling on this, and I very much hope you follow her advice.
posted by Poppa Bear at 11:37 AM on April 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
OP, you are being taken out behind the woodshed right now, and I really cannot rightly understand why, without coming to some very uncharitable conclusions about my fellow Mefites. So let's just skip it.
In an attempt to address your question--
Part of me very much wants to talk to her about this episode. I hope for apology and acknowledgement; I fear that it wouldn't be offered.
Yeah man, that makes a lot of sense. Even if what you want is more acknowledgement than apology (which, I'm not you and I don't know) I think living under the conditions you describe, clearly being under a tremendous amount of emotional and mental stress, and having children to worry about to boot, who are not only being affected now but, as you rightly point out, very likely will be affected in the future-- I'd want my partner to validate my experience as well. You lived her experience with her, as far as I can tell, and she's done a pretty great job of refusing to live yours with you, and that isn't fair.
As an aside, even if you are somehow able to summon the herculean strength to just "get over it" and be glad your wife is back (like I said: let's skip it), your children should not be expected to be able or required to follow suit, and discussing how that time may have affected them and their perception of how relationships work is so obviously worth doing that it really, really, really bothers me that no one is speaking to that.
Why rock the boat? What will an acknowledgement or apology gain?
Potentially? Closure, validation, and restored intimacy for you. For her, an awareness of the effects her illness and response to it had on the life the two of you share together, as well as the pain her family experienced as a result. If I were your wife, *I* would want that, particularly if I truly did not feel like I was in control of my response during that time.
Am I just trying to stir shit up unnecessarily? Life is busy, with two careers and two young kids, why would I disrupt our current happiness with concerns about stuff that is now such old old news?
You'd do it because even though it happened in the past, it's still affecting you, which means it's still affecting your relationship, and almost certainly affecting your children, their perception of the two of you, and their understanding of how healthy romantic relationships work generally.
If I bring this up, how should I phrase things?
I'm with jaguar here; her (screw it. I need pronouns) second paragraph is pretty much my feeling on this, and I very much hope you follow her advice.
posted by Poppa Bear at 11:37 AM on April 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'd work it out in therapy, as Jaguar suggested.
The concern that I would have is if this comes up again for you guys and, since it went unaddressed this time, it will go unaddressed again because the precedent had been set. It's disturbing that her coping mechanism for her health problems consisted of lashing out at you like a crazy person. Sorry, but that's not OK in my book.
posted by PsuDab93 at 12:01 PM on April 23, 2015
The concern that I would have is if this comes up again for you guys and, since it went unaddressed this time, it will go unaddressed again because the precedent had been set. It's disturbing that her coping mechanism for her health problems consisted of lashing out at you like a crazy person. Sorry, but that's not OK in my book.
posted by PsuDab93 at 12:01 PM on April 23, 2015
Like you, I would want to talk about this with my wife. To pretend it never happened is too much like those Stalinist photos where they edit Trotsky out-- I have trouble moving forward without acknowledging the past first.
Then, I agree with Jaguar that you'd do well to talk it out with a therapist first. While she is absolved of "blame" by being under the influence of distressing hormones, your wife did and said some hateful things to you, and it would probably be good to work out some of your residual distress with a third party.
Finally when you do bring it to her, I wouldn't approach it so much as an apology as wanting to process what has happened. "Wife, I love you so much and am so grateful that you are well, and that your surgery has made you feel so much better. I am also still processing the ways that our life was hard before your surgery. I don't bring this up to blame you for anything, but there were things that scared and upset me, and it would make me feel better and more secure if we could talk about what happened, so I can get some closure on it."
posted by feets at 12:20 PM on April 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Then, I agree with Jaguar that you'd do well to talk it out with a therapist first. While she is absolved of "blame" by being under the influence of distressing hormones, your wife did and said some hateful things to you, and it would probably be good to work out some of your residual distress with a third party.
Finally when you do bring it to her, I wouldn't approach it so much as an apology as wanting to process what has happened. "Wife, I love you so much and am so grateful that you are well, and that your surgery has made you feel so much better. I am also still processing the ways that our life was hard before your surgery. I don't bring this up to blame you for anything, but there were things that scared and upset me, and it would make me feel better and more secure if we could talk about what happened, so I can get some closure on it."
posted by feets at 12:20 PM on April 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
How then would you feel if your wife came back months later and told you she wanted you to acknowledge your ill treatment of her - all those times you lashed out at her and she didn't deserve it, etc. - but you knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that you were not the one in control of that behavior - it was strictly from increased testosterone levels due to the cyst/tumor -
Uh, I'd TOTALLY want my hypothetical wife to do this rather than emotionally repressing everything
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:08 PM on April 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
Uh, I'd TOTALLY want my hypothetical wife to do this rather than emotionally repressing everything
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:08 PM on April 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
Oh, and for the record:
If what you've described happened to me, I would absolutely want and expect an apology from someone who loved me and were trying to spend the rest of their life with me. If I didn't get that, or a *very* calm discussion about what had happened, how it felt, and what I needed from my spouse to get on with life, I would lose a significant amount of intimacy with and respect for my spouse, full stop. At the very least, even if the last two years were completely blacked out from her memory, she should be willing and wanting to empathize with the experience you and your children had at her hand, because it sucked for you and she loves you.
Owning your mistakes doesn't mean you could have made a different one under the same circumstances, it means accepting that you were the source of pain for another person. The times I have not wanted to have discussions like this one, where my real agency is questionable, have been because I did not want to reveal to the person I hurt *or myself* the exact line where my illness ended and my complicity began.
posted by Poppa Bear at 2:35 PM on April 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
If what you've described happened to me, I would absolutely want and expect an apology from someone who loved me and were trying to spend the rest of their life with me. If I didn't get that, or a *very* calm discussion about what had happened, how it felt, and what I needed from my spouse to get on with life, I would lose a significant amount of intimacy with and respect for my spouse, full stop. At the very least, even if the last two years were completely blacked out from her memory, she should be willing and wanting to empathize with the experience you and your children had at her hand, because it sucked for you and she loves you.
Owning your mistakes doesn't mean you could have made a different one under the same circumstances, it means accepting that you were the source of pain for another person. The times I have not wanted to have discussions like this one, where my real agency is questionable, have been because I did not want to reveal to the person I hurt *or myself* the exact line where my illness ended and my complicity began.
posted by Poppa Bear at 2:35 PM on April 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
I find the suggestions that you shouldn't attempt to talk about this at all extremely bizarre. I also don't think that approaching this from a position of seeking an apology is useful for either of you.
What I don't understand is why you can't just bring it up. "Hey, can we talk about how things were before the surgery?" Actually, I have a guess: You're afraid she'll blow up again. From what you say, though, that's not who your wife is any more. As you say, she's the same happy, reasonable person you married.
So, yeah, you're traumatized and need to talk about it, but that same trauma is preventing you from doing so. If there are other factors that give you real reasons to believe that she will be unable to have a constructive conversation about this, then that's a separate issue that you haven't told us anything about.
Just talk to her. Don't ask for anything. Don't blame anyone. Just tell her what you're feeling and what you're worried about. If you can't do that, then what is a marriage?
posted by cmoj at 3:04 PM on April 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
What I don't understand is why you can't just bring it up. "Hey, can we talk about how things were before the surgery?" Actually, I have a guess: You're afraid she'll blow up again. From what you say, though, that's not who your wife is any more. As you say, she's the same happy, reasonable person you married.
So, yeah, you're traumatized and need to talk about it, but that same trauma is preventing you from doing so. If there are other factors that give you real reasons to believe that she will be unable to have a constructive conversation about this, then that's a separate issue that you haven't told us anything about.
Just talk to her. Don't ask for anything. Don't blame anyone. Just tell her what you're feeling and what you're worried about. If you can't do that, then what is a marriage?
posted by cmoj at 3:04 PM on April 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
The concern that I would have is if this comes up again for you guys and, since it went unaddressed this time, it will go unaddressed again because the precedent had been set.
That would be my concern, too.
I'm in Camp Acknowledgement But It Doesn't Have to Be Right Now. Jaguar's advice seems sound.
For what it's worth, I had a similar situation as your wife about five years ago, where side effects from meds included both disassociation and angry outbursts. I don't have a husband or kids, but I did treat my closest friends to a most spectacular display of rage, to the point where my best friend left the restaurant in tears. I was the first to acknowledge it a few weeks later, but if they had come to me and asked first, they would absolutely not have been out of line to do so. In fact, me carrying around guilt and shame without any of us clearing the air would have driven a wedge further between us. And I would definitely not have expected them to apologize to me for being insufficiently supportive, on top of having to process me behaving like a right shit to them.
posted by Recliner of Rage at 8:05 PM on April 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
That would be my concern, too.
I'm in Camp Acknowledgement But It Doesn't Have to Be Right Now. Jaguar's advice seems sound.
For what it's worth, I had a similar situation as your wife about five years ago, where side effects from meds included both disassociation and angry outbursts. I don't have a husband or kids, but I did treat my closest friends to a most spectacular display of rage, to the point where my best friend left the restaurant in tears. I was the first to acknowledge it a few weeks later, but if they had come to me and asked first, they would absolutely not have been out of line to do so. In fact, me carrying around guilt and shame without any of us clearing the air would have driven a wedge further between us. And I would definitely not have expected them to apologize to me for being insufficiently supportive, on top of having to process me behaving like a right shit to them.
posted by Recliner of Rage at 8:05 PM on April 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
OP, please go to therapy and look into therapy for your children. You are victims of abuse. It doesn't matter that the abuse was primarily the fault of a disease.
I recommend simply approaching your wife with something like, "I'm so happy that you're better. I was scared I'd have to lose the love of my life. Before your diagnosis and treatment, things seemed really dark for all of us, and now life is sunny again. Honestly though, I'm having a difficult time getting past some of the things that happened when you were ill. I know it was rough for you, but I'm not sure you know how rough it was for me and the kids, and it's still really painful. So I'm going to see a therapist. I think it might be a good idea for Child to see a therapist too, just in case. I want to get past this so badly, and I'd really appreciate your support. "
If it's too much to say, write it down for her and remember the endearments and I Love Yous.
posted by zennie at 7:48 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I recommend simply approaching your wife with something like, "I'm so happy that you're better. I was scared I'd have to lose the love of my life. Before your diagnosis and treatment, things seemed really dark for all of us, and now life is sunny again. Honestly though, I'm having a difficult time getting past some of the things that happened when you were ill. I know it was rough for you, but I'm not sure you know how rough it was for me and the kids, and it's still really painful. So I'm going to see a therapist. I think it might be a good idea for Child to see a therapist too, just in case. I want to get past this so badly, and I'd really appreciate your support. "
If it's too much to say, write it down for her and remember the endearments and I Love Yous.
posted by zennie at 7:48 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
So... I've spent the last several days thinking about responding to your question and also thinking about not responding. Your question has brought a lot up for me, as did many of the answers. I, like others, am kind of shocked by the sorts of responses you have recieved. I've been kind of hurt by some of them, as well, as I've gone through something somewhat similar to what you have been through. So, here I am: under my sockpuppet, responding because I think perhaps my experiences may help you think about yours.
So, a couple years ago, my boyfriend went crazy. I know that term is offensive to some people, but it is the best way he and I have to describe what happened. I can give you the medical term: he had his first manic episode. But that term, "manic episode," just doesn't get to the horror of what we went through. My significant other got eaten alive by chemicals in his brain. He wasn't there. He was replaced by something else--something erratic and incoherent and dangerous. There is a very important sense in which that manic episode killed him. While it had hold of his brain, he--the very sweet and kind and generous and responsible person I know him to be--was dead. Gone. Erased.
Now, if you go back to the one question I've previously asked under this sockpuppet, you can see me struggling at one of the worst points of his mania. But even that question doesn't do justice to how awful it was. I was so deep in survival mode when I wrote that question that I couldn't express just how deeply horrible everything was. At the worst of it, my SO was most definitely a threat to himself and others. Ultimately, he ended up getting involuntarily hospitalized. And then he slowly got better.
My SO was in terrible shape, and he was terrible to me, and he was terrible to others, and he was terrible to himself. But, you know what? He wasn't ever as terrible to me as your wife was to you. He never hurt me, even when he was so far lost that he was delusional. He said some very mean things to me, but nothing as mean as what your wife has said to you. And the awful way he treated me was just so erratic and flighty, rather than long-standing. So, overall, it may be that the abuse you received from your spouse while she was sick is worse than the abuse I received from my SO while he was sick.
But, you know what? My husband's illness absolutely fucking destroyed us. Destroyed us. It killed him, and it absolutely destroyed our relationship. I cannot describe the full force of the anger and rage and frustration and fucking misery that I felt in response to how he treated me, to how he was. I cannot describe just how utterly wrong everything about how we interacted was. I loved him still and cared about him, but it was like loving and caring for a poisonous void--it was killing me. There came a time when my love for him was completely empty of kindness. I couldn't like him because of what his illness had made him.
But, here's the thing: reader, I married him.
Yup. We weren't married when this happened, but we are now. It's been over two years since the manic episode. Now, we're newlyweds. Our relationship has never been stronger, and we have never been closer. I love him, I care for him, and I like him. He loves and cares for and likes me, too. I think my husband and I may be a success story for you to think about.
I don't know if I can say entirely why we were able to move past that horrible time, but here are some parts of it:
1) Therapy. I was in therapy at the time, and I continued to be in therapy. Holy shit was that important. It gave me space to feel whatever I was feeling, no matter what hectic or awful stuff was going on immediately around me.
2) We took our time. It took two. fucking. years. for us to rebuild our relationship. Two years. Now, that's a long time. There was a period, after my now-husband got out of the hospital, that he was really frustrated by the state of our relationship. He still wasn't entirely himself again yet, but he was getting closer to there. He kept saying things like, "I just want to go back to the way things were before!" and "I feel like I've been robbed of everything I care about, and I just want you back." I had similar frustrations. But we just had to deal with those frustrations and allow things to move slowly. I had to learn to trust him again, and he had to make sure he was in fact trustworthy. That takes time. We had to relearn what our rhythms are. One of the biggest things I had to relearn: how to laugh with him. There is a comfort and a pleasantness that needs to exist between two people, for them to be silly and sweet and funny with each other. It took two years.
3) Open communication. One important fact about my husband's particular illness is that it could very well come back. We could go through again what we went through before. And so, we have had to plan and prepare. We have a financial and personal plan in place, in case he ever goes manic again. He also needs continuous medical care, which means that we again have something to talk over, to plan for. All of this set us up to talk candidly about what his illness was/is like, and what we can do about it. I can tell him, if need be, "I am scared of another manic attack," and he can respond. He can tell me, if need be, "I really feel messed up right now," and I can respond. This means that what happened before doesn't become an elephant in the room. We can confront our memories of it and our fears about the future together, as a team.
4) Reconciliation. I almost labelled this "apologies", but I changed my mind. Like others have brought up before, someone in the midst of a medical emergency like what my husband or your wife went through isn't really positioned to apologize after the fact. My husband didn't have control over what he did while manic, and it seems as though your wife didn't, either. But, when my husband came back from the mania, he felt fucking awful. The guilt is something deep and intense, and he has had to work hard to get over it. He has apologized, and profusely--although, again, it isn't really the sort of situation where an apology is appropriate. Part of the reason why I have been able to trust him again is because he has acknowledged what happened while he was manic, and he has actively and purposefully distanced himself from who he was while manic. If he hadn't done that--if his behavior and actions while manic just went completely unaddressed from the moment he got back from the hospital--then we wouldn't have made it. When you have been hurt, you need that hurt to be acknowledged. If my husband hadn't acknowledged how he had hurt me, I wouldn't have been able to trust him, to feel real and happy with him.
So, from the position I'm in now, those four points are what I'd say allowed us to rebuild and re-love. Looking at your current situation, here is what I can suggest:
1) Give it time. If I'm interpreting your question correctly, it's only been a couple months since your wife's surgery. That may feel like a lot of time, but it isn't. The scale of the disruption in your relationship was so extreme (two years of a rough patch!) that it only makes sense rebuilding would take a long time. I'm not sure if you feel committed and strong enough to dedicate to that amount of rebuilding. That's something for you to decide. But I would suggest trying to avoid feeling "itchy" about how long it's taking to feel close and comfortable with her again. That you're still angry now doesn't mean you will be always. That you're still upset and hurt now doesn't mean you will be always. But you may be for a while yet.
2) Talk to her. Yes: talk to her. I don't understand at all the advice in this thread to keep your feelings to yourself. That advice left me feeling almost sick, especially when I thought about what that same advice, applied to my case, would mean for me. I am so sorry you've been told to keep quiet. That's not going to help. You were abused. Whether she meant it or not, you. were. abused. It is right to feel hurt and angry about that. It would be wrong not to feel hurt and angry after what you have gone through! You need to express those emotions to your wife. You need to make sure that your relationship is one in which the pain you have suffered is acknowledged.
But with that said...
3) Think first, before you talk to her. You are probably a mixed-up ball of emotions right now. There has been so much going on with you, emotionally, that it is probably hard to see what you want, or to really put words to what you feel. There is a lot going on with you. Note just all the doubt and uncertainty you display in your question--you don't yet know what you want to say, and you don't yet know how to say it. This is something you need to figure out.
This is what therapy can help you with: making sense of your emotions, figuring out what you want, and developing a script for how to discuss everything that has happened with your wife. This is why you want to go to therapy by yourself: so you can have a space that is fully dedicated just to your emotions, so you can examine them, make sense of them, and come to terms with what it is you need from your wife. Given how your wife has ignored the issue(s), it's likely going to be a tough conversation. She might, herself, be a ball of mixed-up, bad emotions and not know what to do about it. Talking to her is going to involve strength and compassion. I doubt you're yet in a position to approach the topic with your wife, from a position of strength and compassion. A therapist can help you get there.
In the end, I don't think I have any Super Special Advice that only people who have saved their relationships after extreme medical disruption. My advice is the same as anyone else's. I hope, though, that my experience with a similar sort of situation can help shed some light on what you're going through and what you can expect to go through in the future. I've put a lot of myself into this answer. I hope it can help you make sense of what you're feeling.
What you have gone through is hard. You have suffered through a hardship. But, moreso, I think you still are suffering in that hardship. The shattered relationship doesn't just miraculously mend itself, when the root cause of the shattering goes away. It's not like a knife wound miraculously heals up, once the knife has been taken out. There's still bleeding, there's still pain, there's still a desperate need for help and healing. Don't let anyone tell you differently: someone who is sick can still hurt you; recovery from that hurt is still necessary and hard, even if that someone isn't ultimately culpable for their actions.
If you think it would be worthwhile, you're welcome to MeMail me. My situation is different enough from your own that I'm not sure how helpful I can be... But I have survived. My husband and I have survived. I hope you and your wife can, too.
posted by The Puppet of Secrets at 2:06 PM on April 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
So, a couple years ago, my boyfriend went crazy. I know that term is offensive to some people, but it is the best way he and I have to describe what happened. I can give you the medical term: he had his first manic episode. But that term, "manic episode," just doesn't get to the horror of what we went through. My significant other got eaten alive by chemicals in his brain. He wasn't there. He was replaced by something else--something erratic and incoherent and dangerous. There is a very important sense in which that manic episode killed him. While it had hold of his brain, he--the very sweet and kind and generous and responsible person I know him to be--was dead. Gone. Erased.
Now, if you go back to the one question I've previously asked under this sockpuppet, you can see me struggling at one of the worst points of his mania. But even that question doesn't do justice to how awful it was. I was so deep in survival mode when I wrote that question that I couldn't express just how deeply horrible everything was. At the worst of it, my SO was most definitely a threat to himself and others. Ultimately, he ended up getting involuntarily hospitalized. And then he slowly got better.
My SO was in terrible shape, and he was terrible to me, and he was terrible to others, and he was terrible to himself. But, you know what? He wasn't ever as terrible to me as your wife was to you. He never hurt me, even when he was so far lost that he was delusional. He said some very mean things to me, but nothing as mean as what your wife has said to you. And the awful way he treated me was just so erratic and flighty, rather than long-standing. So, overall, it may be that the abuse you received from your spouse while she was sick is worse than the abuse I received from my SO while he was sick.
But, you know what? My husband's illness absolutely fucking destroyed us. Destroyed us. It killed him, and it absolutely destroyed our relationship. I cannot describe the full force of the anger and rage and frustration and fucking misery that I felt in response to how he treated me, to how he was. I cannot describe just how utterly wrong everything about how we interacted was. I loved him still and cared about him, but it was like loving and caring for a poisonous void--it was killing me. There came a time when my love for him was completely empty of kindness. I couldn't like him because of what his illness had made him.
But, here's the thing: reader, I married him.
Yup. We weren't married when this happened, but we are now. It's been over two years since the manic episode. Now, we're newlyweds. Our relationship has never been stronger, and we have never been closer. I love him, I care for him, and I like him. He loves and cares for and likes me, too. I think my husband and I may be a success story for you to think about.
I don't know if I can say entirely why we were able to move past that horrible time, but here are some parts of it:
1) Therapy. I was in therapy at the time, and I continued to be in therapy. Holy shit was that important. It gave me space to feel whatever I was feeling, no matter what hectic or awful stuff was going on immediately around me.
2) We took our time. It took two. fucking. years. for us to rebuild our relationship. Two years. Now, that's a long time. There was a period, after my now-husband got out of the hospital, that he was really frustrated by the state of our relationship. He still wasn't entirely himself again yet, but he was getting closer to there. He kept saying things like, "I just want to go back to the way things were before!" and "I feel like I've been robbed of everything I care about, and I just want you back." I had similar frustrations. But we just had to deal with those frustrations and allow things to move slowly. I had to learn to trust him again, and he had to make sure he was in fact trustworthy. That takes time. We had to relearn what our rhythms are. One of the biggest things I had to relearn: how to laugh with him. There is a comfort and a pleasantness that needs to exist between two people, for them to be silly and sweet and funny with each other. It took two years.
3) Open communication. One important fact about my husband's particular illness is that it could very well come back. We could go through again what we went through before. And so, we have had to plan and prepare. We have a financial and personal plan in place, in case he ever goes manic again. He also needs continuous medical care, which means that we again have something to talk over, to plan for. All of this set us up to talk candidly about what his illness was/is like, and what we can do about it. I can tell him, if need be, "I am scared of another manic attack," and he can respond. He can tell me, if need be, "I really feel messed up right now," and I can respond. This means that what happened before doesn't become an elephant in the room. We can confront our memories of it and our fears about the future together, as a team.
4) Reconciliation. I almost labelled this "apologies", but I changed my mind. Like others have brought up before, someone in the midst of a medical emergency like what my husband or your wife went through isn't really positioned to apologize after the fact. My husband didn't have control over what he did while manic, and it seems as though your wife didn't, either. But, when my husband came back from the mania, he felt fucking awful. The guilt is something deep and intense, and he has had to work hard to get over it. He has apologized, and profusely--although, again, it isn't really the sort of situation where an apology is appropriate. Part of the reason why I have been able to trust him again is because he has acknowledged what happened while he was manic, and he has actively and purposefully distanced himself from who he was while manic. If he hadn't done that--if his behavior and actions while manic just went completely unaddressed from the moment he got back from the hospital--then we wouldn't have made it. When you have been hurt, you need that hurt to be acknowledged. If my husband hadn't acknowledged how he had hurt me, I wouldn't have been able to trust him, to feel real and happy with him.
So, from the position I'm in now, those four points are what I'd say allowed us to rebuild and re-love. Looking at your current situation, here is what I can suggest:
1) Give it time. If I'm interpreting your question correctly, it's only been a couple months since your wife's surgery. That may feel like a lot of time, but it isn't. The scale of the disruption in your relationship was so extreme (two years of a rough patch!) that it only makes sense rebuilding would take a long time. I'm not sure if you feel committed and strong enough to dedicate to that amount of rebuilding. That's something for you to decide. But I would suggest trying to avoid feeling "itchy" about how long it's taking to feel close and comfortable with her again. That you're still angry now doesn't mean you will be always. That you're still upset and hurt now doesn't mean you will be always. But you may be for a while yet.
2) Talk to her. Yes: talk to her. I don't understand at all the advice in this thread to keep your feelings to yourself. That advice left me feeling almost sick, especially when I thought about what that same advice, applied to my case, would mean for me. I am so sorry you've been told to keep quiet. That's not going to help. You were abused. Whether she meant it or not, you. were. abused. It is right to feel hurt and angry about that. It would be wrong not to feel hurt and angry after what you have gone through! You need to express those emotions to your wife. You need to make sure that your relationship is one in which the pain you have suffered is acknowledged.
But with that said...
3) Think first, before you talk to her. You are probably a mixed-up ball of emotions right now. There has been so much going on with you, emotionally, that it is probably hard to see what you want, or to really put words to what you feel. There is a lot going on with you. Note just all the doubt and uncertainty you display in your question--you don't yet know what you want to say, and you don't yet know how to say it. This is something you need to figure out.
This is what therapy can help you with: making sense of your emotions, figuring out what you want, and developing a script for how to discuss everything that has happened with your wife. This is why you want to go to therapy by yourself: so you can have a space that is fully dedicated just to your emotions, so you can examine them, make sense of them, and come to terms with what it is you need from your wife. Given how your wife has ignored the issue(s), it's likely going to be a tough conversation. She might, herself, be a ball of mixed-up, bad emotions and not know what to do about it. Talking to her is going to involve strength and compassion. I doubt you're yet in a position to approach the topic with your wife, from a position of strength and compassion. A therapist can help you get there.
In the end, I don't think I have any Super Special Advice that only people who have saved their relationships after extreme medical disruption. My advice is the same as anyone else's. I hope, though, that my experience with a similar sort of situation can help shed some light on what you're going through and what you can expect to go through in the future. I've put a lot of myself into this answer. I hope it can help you make sense of what you're feeling.
What you have gone through is hard. You have suffered through a hardship. But, moreso, I think you still are suffering in that hardship. The shattered relationship doesn't just miraculously mend itself, when the root cause of the shattering goes away. It's not like a knife wound miraculously heals up, once the knife has been taken out. There's still bleeding, there's still pain, there's still a desperate need for help and healing. Don't let anyone tell you differently: someone who is sick can still hurt you; recovery from that hurt is still necessary and hard, even if that someone isn't ultimately culpable for their actions.
If you think it would be worthwhile, you're welcome to MeMail me. My situation is different enough from your own that I'm not sure how helpful I can be... But I have survived. My husband and I have survived. I hope you and your wife can, too.
posted by The Puppet of Secrets at 2:06 PM on April 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
I think it is really important to talk this out with your wife, if only because you need to have a discussion with your children where you explain that Mom was sick, but if she hadn't been sick, that that is absolutely not an ok way to treat people, and *is* enough reason to not live with someone anymore.
It's really important for kids to know that any kind of anger and abuse like that is not ok, not normalised. Otherwise they may be left with the impression that you all would have just continued with those rages, their whole childhood, if your wife had not been cured.
posted by Elysum at 5:43 PM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's really important for kids to know that any kind of anger and abuse like that is not ok, not normalised. Otherwise they may be left with the impression that you all would have just continued with those rages, their whole childhood, if your wife had not been cured.
posted by Elysum at 5:43 PM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Something like, "Before your cancer scare, things were rough, and I was wondering if we could talk about that time?" If she doesn't acknowledge anything or want to talk about it, then there's another set of issues to work with, but it could be that she's just not sure if she should bring it up either.
posted by xingcat at 3:14 PM on April 22, 2015 [7 favorites]