To Take a Year Off or To Go On To Law School?
April 16, 2015 5:15 PM Subscribe
I want to take a year off start obtaining my bachelor's degree before going on to law school. However, my dad (who is the one paying for my education) wants me to go straight to law school and I am conflicted over what is the right thing for me to do.
Hi everybody!
I am currently attending college and will be graduating a year early this May. I plan on going to law school; however, I desperately want to take a year off. I want the year off to improve my mental and physical health and to cultivate better study habits which I severely lack. I also want more time to study for the LSAT. I feel burned out since I loaded my schedule up with enough classes to allow me to graduate a year early. I didn't get enough experience working in internships or organizations while I was in college and that is something I wish to build so that my chances of getting accepted into law school will be higher. The biggest reason why I want to take a year off, though, is to improve my mental health since I've been dealing with depression.
The only thing standing in the way of me doing this is my dad who's being amazing and is kindly paying for my education. Even though I've told him that I'm actively searching for a job and going on interviews, he's said that he does not want me working. He wants me to continue and finish my education now while he still has his job and the means with which to pay for law school. He told me what I can do is simply apply as a part-time student in law school and take minimal amount of classes so I don't stress myself out. I'm considering this.
By the way, it is important that I mention that my dad is not pressuring me to start law school. He said that if I really want to take a year off then I may, but that he is simply giving me advice. So I'm not asking for help on how to convince my dad to change his mind, I just want to know from other people if maybe my dad DOES have the right idea. He is successful and very wise so this is why I feel conflicted about my decision because in the back of my mind I am thinking he may be right.
So my question to you all is should I go on to law school in the fall or take the year off? If any of you have gone through a similar situation I would appreciate your feedback. Thank you, everyone.
Hi everybody!
I am currently attending college and will be graduating a year early this May. I plan on going to law school; however, I desperately want to take a year off. I want the year off to improve my mental and physical health and to cultivate better study habits which I severely lack. I also want more time to study for the LSAT. I feel burned out since I loaded my schedule up with enough classes to allow me to graduate a year early. I didn't get enough experience working in internships or organizations while I was in college and that is something I wish to build so that my chances of getting accepted into law school will be higher. The biggest reason why I want to take a year off, though, is to improve my mental health since I've been dealing with depression.
The only thing standing in the way of me doing this is my dad who's being amazing and is kindly paying for my education. Even though I've told him that I'm actively searching for a job and going on interviews, he's said that he does not want me working. He wants me to continue and finish my education now while he still has his job and the means with which to pay for law school. He told me what I can do is simply apply as a part-time student in law school and take minimal amount of classes so I don't stress myself out. I'm considering this.
By the way, it is important that I mention that my dad is not pressuring me to start law school. He said that if I really want to take a year off then I may, but that he is simply giving me advice. So I'm not asking for help on how to convince my dad to change his mind, I just want to know from other people if maybe my dad DOES have the right idea. He is successful and very wise so this is why I feel conflicted about my decision because in the back of my mind I am thinking he may be right.
So my question to you all is should I go on to law school in the fall or take the year off? If any of you have gone through a similar situation I would appreciate your feedback. Thank you, everyone.
Assuming you are in the US, I would definitely advise against going part time- there is (unfortunately) a stigma about part time programs for law that could severely limit your options later on down the line.
posted by susiswimmer at 5:34 PM on April 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by susiswimmer at 5:34 PM on April 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'm confused - are you already admitted to a law school? You talk about wanting more time to study for the LSATs, so it sounds like you haven't applied yet, in which case... aren't you already having a year between when you finish in May and when you'd start law school in the fall of 2016?
The first year of law school is notorious difficult - I think one would be best off going in refreshed and ready, or at least really gung-ho. You don't sound like any of those.
posted by rtha at 5:47 PM on April 16, 2015 [17 favorites]
The first year of law school is notorious difficult - I think one would be best off going in refreshed and ready, or at least really gung-ho. You don't sound like any of those.
posted by rtha at 5:47 PM on April 16, 2015 [17 favorites]
He told me what I can do is simply apply as a part-time student in law school and take minimal amount of classes so I don't stress myself out.
That's truly horrible advice! Do not, I repeat, do not ever go to a US law school part-time. Full-time ABA-accredited law programs are the only ones worth the money. This is not like an "executive MBA" or something where you can dabble and take your time.
to cultivate better study habits which I severely lack.
You not having solid study habits after 3 years of undergrad is a big red flag here. It does not bode well. The first year of law school is going to be very stressful, and it is going to require your full and undivided attention.
What rtha just said-- this doesn't read like you have any acceptances yet. Take the year off to get your mental health in order first. If you do not get into a top-ranked school (IMHO top 15), you are going to need to have mostly A's and/or be on the law review to even get a decent 6-figure-paying job - which is what most law grads seem to want and expect.
posted by hush at 5:50 PM on April 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
That's truly horrible advice! Do not, I repeat, do not ever go to a US law school part-time. Full-time ABA-accredited law programs are the only ones worth the money. This is not like an "executive MBA" or something where you can dabble and take your time.
to cultivate better study habits which I severely lack.
You not having solid study habits after 3 years of undergrad is a big red flag here. It does not bode well. The first year of law school is going to be very stressful, and it is going to require your full and undivided attention.
What rtha just said-- this doesn't read like you have any acceptances yet. Take the year off to get your mental health in order first. If you do not get into a top-ranked school (IMHO top 15), you are going to need to have mostly A's and/or be on the law review to even get a decent 6-figure-paying job - which is what most law grads seem to want and expect.
posted by hush at 5:50 PM on April 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all so so so much for your advice so far.
Only here to answer one question: I've already applied but the school is allowing me to send my LSAT scores after the deadline. I was told my chances of attending this school are high, but it's not top-tier. I am taking the LSAT in June. I don't feel that I've had enough time to prepare for it.
Thank you for all the honest responses so far. My dad is not a lawyer himself so he doesn't know that being part-time student is a bad idea. And neither did I so thank you all for the help.
That's it from me.
Edit: And yes, I am in the US!
posted by NowYouKnow at 5:56 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Only here to answer one question: I've already applied but the school is allowing me to send my LSAT scores after the deadline. I was told my chances of attending this school are high, but it's not top-tier. I am taking the LSAT in June. I don't feel that I've had enough time to prepare for it.
Thank you for all the honest responses so far. My dad is not a lawyer himself so he doesn't know that being part-time student is a bad idea. And neither did I so thank you all for the help.
That's it from me.
Edit: And yes, I am in the US!
posted by NowYouKnow at 5:56 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Are you in the US? I'm assuming you are.
If the answers to both are not a resounding "Yes," you should not be going to law school next year, and possibly ever.
Seconding this super-hard.
Also, the first year of law school at a top notch law school is grueling.
This is because the grades you get for the batch of classes traditionally taken during your first year, known as 1L, determine the interviews and opportunities that you get for your 2L summer. In particular, stellar 1L grades at a top law school are important for the "best" internships/summer 2L jobs, like the ones at big firms that pay $160K a year, a job with a nonprofit like the ACLU or even a nonprofit providing legal services to the local community, and the federal clerkships and assignments to certain shiny government programs. In turn, the job or internship that you have your 2L summer either results in an offer that determines what you do after graduation, or is a big stepping stone to that job.
Miss the golden ring, and while it's not impossible, it's much, much harder. Therefore, unless you are ready to give 100000000000% your first year of law school, no matter what the cost, yeah, no, don't go to law school next year.
As anecdata, I started law school six days after I finished undergrad. When I finished my last 1L exam, I was SO EXCITED that I didn't even care that I'd accidentally spilled an entire liter of extra-pulp orange juice all over my laptop on my way out of the room. I JUST DID NOT CARE I WAS DONE I WAS DONE I WAS LEAVING THAT FUCKING ROOM OH MY GOD FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM.
posted by joyceanmachine at 5:57 PM on April 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
If the answers to both are not a resounding "Yes," you should not be going to law school next year, and possibly ever.
Seconding this super-hard.
Also, the first year of law school at a top notch law school is grueling.
This is because the grades you get for the batch of classes traditionally taken during your first year, known as 1L, determine the interviews and opportunities that you get for your 2L summer. In particular, stellar 1L grades at a top law school are important for the "best" internships/summer 2L jobs, like the ones at big firms that pay $160K a year, a job with a nonprofit like the ACLU or even a nonprofit providing legal services to the local community, and the federal clerkships and assignments to certain shiny government programs. In turn, the job or internship that you have your 2L summer either results in an offer that determines what you do after graduation, or is a big stepping stone to that job.
Miss the golden ring, and while it's not impossible, it's much, much harder. Therefore, unless you are ready to give 100000000000% your first year of law school, no matter what the cost, yeah, no, don't go to law school next year.
As anecdata, I started law school six days after I finished undergrad. When I finished my last 1L exam, I was SO EXCITED that I didn't even care that I'd accidentally spilled an entire liter of extra-pulp orange juice all over my laptop on my way out of the room. I JUST DID NOT CARE I WAS DONE I WAS DONE I WAS LEAVING THAT FUCKING ROOM OH MY GOD FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM.
posted by joyceanmachine at 5:57 PM on April 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
Go to law school. One reason law school is tough is to toughen you for your clients and workload as a lawyer. Take the summer after law school off. Your Dad has only so much time and money, he will also be free, after you are through law school.
posted by Oyéah at 6:28 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Oyéah at 6:28 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
have you seen this flow chart?
do not go to law school unless you know what lawyers actually do (because you have spent significant time working in the legal field) and can imagine yourself doing nothing else.
posted by mattbcoset at 6:30 PM on April 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
do not go to law school unless you know what lawyers actually do (because you have spent significant time working in the legal field) and can imagine yourself doing nothing else.
posted by mattbcoset at 6:30 PM on April 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
Do not go to law school unless the following three things are true:
1) You've been accepted to a Top 10 law school. Maybe Top 20 if you have a very good reason for specifically wanting to attend that school (e.g., you are attending UT Austin because you specifically want to practice law in Texas). Anything else has very, very high risks of you ending up permanently under-employed or unemployed. I suspect that you are not considering a Top 20 law school, because I can't imagine a scenario in which a Top 20 law school would accept a June LSAT for this fall or would promise an applicant that she'll get in.
2) You know what it means to be a lawyer, and you know what kind of lawyer you want to be and why you want to be it. That means that you have to have experience both working with lawyers and working in other kinds of non-lawyer jobs, so that you know what you want to do for a living in the long term. And I don't mean internships; I mean real jobs.
3) You have a specific plan for paying for law school and avoiding spending the rest of your life in crushing debt.
Do not go to law school unless all three of those things are true for you. It sounds like, for you, only #3 is true right now. Take a few years off, work full-time in one or more different fields, get a sense of what you're good at and what you like to do, then decide whether you want to study hard enough for the LSAT to get into a Top 10 or Top 20 law school.
I am a lawyer. Many of my former classmates are either pretty poor, or desperately unhappy in their jobs as lawyers. Some are both poor and unhappy. Law school is objectively, for many people, a terrible idea, and it can ruin your life if you don't make the decision to go very, very carefully.
posted by decathecting at 6:34 PM on April 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
1) You've been accepted to a Top 10 law school. Maybe Top 20 if you have a very good reason for specifically wanting to attend that school (e.g., you are attending UT Austin because you specifically want to practice law in Texas). Anything else has very, very high risks of you ending up permanently under-employed or unemployed. I suspect that you are not considering a Top 20 law school, because I can't imagine a scenario in which a Top 20 law school would accept a June LSAT for this fall or would promise an applicant that she'll get in.
2) You know what it means to be a lawyer, and you know what kind of lawyer you want to be and why you want to be it. That means that you have to have experience both working with lawyers and working in other kinds of non-lawyer jobs, so that you know what you want to do for a living in the long term. And I don't mean internships; I mean real jobs.
3) You have a specific plan for paying for law school and avoiding spending the rest of your life in crushing debt.
Do not go to law school unless all three of those things are true for you. It sounds like, for you, only #3 is true right now. Take a few years off, work full-time in one or more different fields, get a sense of what you're good at and what you like to do, then decide whether you want to study hard enough for the LSAT to get into a Top 10 or Top 20 law school.
I am a lawyer. Many of my former classmates are either pretty poor, or desperately unhappy in their jobs as lawyers. Some are both poor and unhappy. Law school is objectively, for many people, a terrible idea, and it can ruin your life if you don't make the decision to go very, very carefully.
posted by decathecting at 6:34 PM on April 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
Please. Georgetown has a "part time" program and its (the evening division, specifically) students have the same clerkships and careers add the rest of the students. If it's a good school, and you get good grades and make law review, you'll be as likely as any graduate to find a law job, graduating part time.
That said, wait a year or more. Get some professional experience (of any kind), spend some time as an adult in the world and you'll be a much better lawyer and law student and potential hire.
posted by crush-onastick at 6:34 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
That said, wait a year or more. Get some professional experience (of any kind), spend some time as an adult in the world and you'll be a much better lawyer and law student and potential hire.
posted by crush-onastick at 6:34 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, I cannot disagree strongly enough with Oyéah. Law school is not tough to toughen you up. Law school is tough as a culling mechanism, to separate those who will become gainfully employed from those who will not be. There are not enough legal jobs for all the people who are graduating from law school, and most experts agree that there never will be. Law school is tough because it is a battle among the students to find employment in the profession we train for.
posted by decathecting at 6:36 PM on April 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by decathecting at 6:36 PM on April 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
I guess its possible that part time programs are looked down upon, but the number of DC people I know who either started part time and switched to full or continued through to graduation part time (I fall in this second group) who landed top firm jobs, clerkships, coveted prosecutors offices, etc belies this.(I allow that plenty part time attendees, myself included, attended law school in furtherance of specific already embarked upon career paths) DC, Georgetown, GW, WCL (American U), Catholic U and George Mason all have part time programs. They are all ABA accredited.
I appreciate all the "never go to law school" stuff. And I also understand that plenty of lawyers end up deeply unhappy. And sure, law school is challenging, but I think law students and lawyers are REALLY good at complaining. (Take the year! Relax a bit! Get yourself together ). Definitely think seriously about whether you really want to be a lawyer or not. And why (maybe take the year to work ad an assistant or paralegal, etc in the kind of law you'd like to practice. (Surely, Dad will pay is not enough of a reason). But while the naysayers here aren't wrong, especially about their own experiences, don't let them have overdue influence.
posted by atomicstone at 6:48 PM on April 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I appreciate all the "never go to law school" stuff. And I also understand that plenty of lawyers end up deeply unhappy. And sure, law school is challenging, but I think law students and lawyers are REALLY good at complaining. (Take the year! Relax a bit! Get yourself together ). Definitely think seriously about whether you really want to be a lawyer or not. And why (maybe take the year to work ad an assistant or paralegal, etc in the kind of law you'd like to practice. (Surely, Dad will pay is not enough of a reason). But while the naysayers here aren't wrong, especially about their own experiences, don't let them have overdue influence.
posted by atomicstone at 6:48 PM on April 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
You have excellent reasons for taking a year off.
You are correct, working for a year after undergrad is likely to increase your chances of getting accepted to the law school of your choice.
Personally, I feel that working between undergrad and law school is a great idea for everyone. It gives you an idea of what the working world is like and what you might want to do (or what you do NOT want to do); it gives you perspective and insight into the real world that is useful when you head back to school; it gives you a break from studying and exams; it gives you something to put on your resume; it gives you some money in the bank to help you pay for school.
DC and other areas may be different, but where I live in Boston, the part-time programs are not as prestigious as the full-time schools. Around here the legal profession is pretty snobby and unless you have a very good reason (e.g., you are working as a patent agent while going to school part-time to be a patent attorney), you unfortunately might be looked down upon for attending a part-time program.
If your dad were actually threatening not to pay if you take a year off, it would be a harder decision because law school can be very expensive and the debt is a huge burden. But it sounds like he's just giving you friendly advice, and my advice is not to take his advice.
posted by chickenmagazine at 6:56 PM on April 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
You are correct, working for a year after undergrad is likely to increase your chances of getting accepted to the law school of your choice.
Personally, I feel that working between undergrad and law school is a great idea for everyone. It gives you an idea of what the working world is like and what you might want to do (or what you do NOT want to do); it gives you perspective and insight into the real world that is useful when you head back to school; it gives you a break from studying and exams; it gives you something to put on your resume; it gives you some money in the bank to help you pay for school.
DC and other areas may be different, but where I live in Boston, the part-time programs are not as prestigious as the full-time schools. Around here the legal profession is pretty snobby and unless you have a very good reason (e.g., you are working as a patent agent while going to school part-time to be a patent attorney), you unfortunately might be looked down upon for attending a part-time program.
If your dad were actually threatening not to pay if you take a year off, it would be a harder decision because law school can be very expensive and the debt is a huge burden. But it sounds like he's just giving you friendly advice, and my advice is not to take his advice.
posted by chickenmagazine at 6:56 PM on April 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Since there's been some dispute, I thought I should say that I stand by my prior statement.
However, I will admit that (as lawyers say) you can rebut that presumption if you attended an evening program because (1) you were working full time (2) there is a synergy between your full time job and the law degree that will benefit the employer (see above examples) and (3) you got top marks anyways.
I.e. you are such a hard-ass you even scare the interviewer.
Also, several of the top tier law schools and a rapidly growing set of employers really appreciate a candidate with work experience prior to law school. Something to consider.
posted by susiswimmer at 7:46 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
However, I will admit that (as lawyers say) you can rebut that presumption if you attended an evening program because (1) you were working full time (2) there is a synergy between your full time job and the law degree that will benefit the employer (see above examples) and (3) you got top marks anyways.
I.e. you are such a hard-ass you even scare the interviewer.
Also, several of the top tier law schools and a rapidly growing set of employers really appreciate a candidate with work experience prior to law school. Something to consider.
posted by susiswimmer at 7:46 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I recommend taking the year off and working in law, either as a paralegal or as a legal assistant. I had an inkling to go to law school one time, then I worked as a paralegal for nearly four years, and that inkling went away quite quickly. The flowsheet linked above is 100% dead on, even if it comes off as snarky. I would be hard-pressed to ever go anywhere near law again, and I liked my work.
The legal field is not at all what you see on TV; the pay is not going to be big bucks; it is more of a sales job (you have to recruit clients); you barely step foot in a courtroom; and the constant do-or-die stress and long, unstable hours make people into the worst versions of themselves. If you already have struggles with stress and depression, then I urge you to seriously reconsider going right into law school and to get as much experience in law as you can before you go all in.
posted by coast99 at 8:10 PM on April 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
The legal field is not at all what you see on TV; the pay is not going to be big bucks; it is more of a sales job (you have to recruit clients); you barely step foot in a courtroom; and the constant do-or-die stress and long, unstable hours make people into the worst versions of themselves. If you already have struggles with stress and depression, then I urge you to seriously reconsider going right into law school and to get as much experience in law as you can before you go all in.
posted by coast99 at 8:10 PM on April 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
Nthing all those who say you should not go to law school.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 8:11 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 8:11 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Proceeding cautiously seems wise, especially because it will give you time to find the best way to make the most of a truly great gift.
I vote for taking a year off, looking at a variety of graduate school programs, and taking a GRE prep course. A lot of graduate programs teach skills that are aspects of the legal profession, including journalism, business, social work and education - if there is a skill set that most appeals to you, you might want to look for a graduate program that is more focused on the specific skills that you want to develop. A master's degree might help you get into an excellent law school, and it likely would improve your study skills, and it might give you a wider range of job opportunities than a J.D. could in the current economy.
posted by Little Dawn at 9:09 PM on April 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I vote for taking a year off, looking at a variety of graduate school programs, and taking a GRE prep course. A lot of graduate programs teach skills that are aspects of the legal profession, including journalism, business, social work and education - if there is a skill set that most appeals to you, you might want to look for a graduate program that is more focused on the specific skills that you want to develop. A master's degree might help you get into an excellent law school, and it likely would improve your study skills, and it might give you a wider range of job opportunities than a J.D. could in the current economy.
posted by Little Dawn at 9:09 PM on April 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Nthing the advice that you absolutely should not go to law school unless you get into one of the top ten law schools (that's top ten, not top ten percent), and probably not even then. Seriously.
Yes, I am aware that you won't take this advice, because you think you're different -- everyone entering law school does. You're not. (I don't mean that in a disparaging way at all, but I've seen the same thing literally dozens of times; people think, "But I'm different, I have a passion for this work, I really want to be here, I'm going to do important work, etc. etc. etc.) But I want to get it on record, and my philosophy is that if I can talk a single person out of going to law school, I'll have accomplished something worthwhile. (Yes, I am a lawyer.)
posted by holborne at 9:26 PM on April 16, 2015 [15 favorites]
Yes, I am aware that you won't take this advice, because you think you're different -- everyone entering law school does. You're not. (I don't mean that in a disparaging way at all, but I've seen the same thing literally dozens of times; people think, "But I'm different, I have a passion for this work, I really want to be here, I'm going to do important work, etc. etc. etc.) But I want to get it on record, and my philosophy is that if I can talk a single person out of going to law school, I'll have accomplished something worthwhile. (Yes, I am a lawyer.)
posted by holborne at 9:26 PM on April 16, 2015 [15 favorites]
If law school is as much work as grad school, then I say take a year off. Otherwise you'll be burnt out.
posted by jb at 9:39 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jb at 9:39 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
> I recommend taking the year off and working in law, either as a paralegal or as a legal assistant.
Maybe three or so years after I was out of college I was thinking I wanted to go to law school. I kind of fell into a job as an admin/gopher in a tiny practice in DC where I was living, where they were doing a kind of law (civil rights! school desegregation!) that I figured was right up my alley.... Until I had to read legalese for more hours a day than I wanted to (i.e., any, really). I realized, thanks to this job, that I am completely unsuited for the actual practice of law. I like it, I think it's interesting, I like reading about legal issues and talking about them, but I would make a terrible lawyer. Do you want to be a lawyer? Do you know what that entails, in a day-to-day kind of way? I'm really glad I found out before I took the LSATs and went to law school, and I urge you strongly to be sure.
posted by rtha at 10:42 PM on April 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Maybe three or so years after I was out of college I was thinking I wanted to go to law school. I kind of fell into a job as an admin/gopher in a tiny practice in DC where I was living, where they were doing a kind of law (civil rights! school desegregation!) that I figured was right up my alley.... Until I had to read legalese for more hours a day than I wanted to (i.e., any, really). I realized, thanks to this job, that I am completely unsuited for the actual practice of law. I like it, I think it's interesting, I like reading about legal issues and talking about them, but I would make a terrible lawyer. Do you want to be a lawyer? Do you know what that entails, in a day-to-day kind of way? I'm really glad I found out before I took the LSATs and went to law school, and I urge you strongly to be sure.
posted by rtha at 10:42 PM on April 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is a big commitment, not just for you, but also for your Dad. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't speak from experience, but if even a small fraction of the comments in this thread speak the truth, then you owe it to both yourself and your Dad to step back and take some time off and make sure this is truly a worthwhile use of his money and your time.
Oh, and while I haven't known many lawyers in my life, the ones I have known were both miserable and dysfunctional.
posted by sam_harms at 10:44 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, and while I haven't known many lawyers in my life, the ones I have known were both miserable and dysfunctional.
posted by sam_harms at 10:44 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I know I shouldn't threadsit but I just wanted to give a big THANK YOU to everyone because I think you all just saved me from making the biggest mistake of my life. I will make sure to show this to my dad. Thanks!
posted by NowYouKnow at 11:08 PM on April 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by NowYouKnow at 11:08 PM on April 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
Someone recently told me about a study showing that pessimistic students tend to be more successful in law school. I said that's probably because the top 10% are terrified of losing it, the next 10% are trying like hell to break in, and the rest of us don't have a chance so fuck that, let's go bowling.
I am about a month away from wrapping up my fourth year of a part-time program. I waited four years between college and law school and went to school while I worked full time for the first three years. I went, as mattbcoset suggested you do, because I had spent several years working at a law firm and could not imagine myself doing anything else, and I even had a job lined up there after graduation. Then I realized I hated my job, I hated that field, I quit, and I used loans to repay the firm the tuition assistance they gave me, I spent this past year throwing myself into volunteering opportunities and taking classes I wanted to take instead of ones that accommodated my work schedule.
Law school is stressful. Law school part-time while working full-time is a level of stress most people don't know exists. I had more trouble with it than most, for reasons too long to go into. But due to that trouble I'm ranked in the lower third of the class, was definitely not on law review (I have never written a brief or a motion or anything like that except for the Fisher Price version I did 1L year), and last spring was the first semester I did homework for law school (or ever actually - thanks adult-diagnosis ADHD!). And, I'm one of a handful of people with a job lined up before graduation.
Why? Because an alum thinks I'm the bomb dot com and was hiring.
But also two sub-reasons:
1) My classmates from the part-time program either kept the jobs they had or got jobs without breaking a sweat because they are all older and have work experience, or are younger and freakishly driven. As for the full-time students, my top-ranked friends with no work experience are competing with their other top-ranked classmates with no work experience. They all have the same GPAs and equally awesome internships and clerkships and they all volunteer and are on reviews and journals but have no work experience. There are other schools in the area, with other great students with no experience. Big Law has found who it wants already. Most other places won't hire until bar results are out, or they will and offers will be contingent on passing. Which brings us to:
2) It's not a practicing position. I will take the bar, I will be licensed, but I don't care if I'm a lawyer. I just put myself through the four worst years ever and I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want to do, I don't care what the job title is. My salary is great, awesome bonus potential, 9 to 5ish hours, great benefits, growth, and time off. And it's exactly what I want to do; if you asked me to write my ideal job description, this would be it.
But mostly: an alum thinks I'm the bomb dot com and was hiring. Ultimately, that's how it works: you know someone who's hiring.
I'm happy I went to law school and I'm grateful for all the awful shit that happened. The friends I made are amazing and I look forward to running into them in a professional capacity in the years to come. I'll be paying back loans forever, but much less than most since I went part-time for three years. And like I said, I don't care if I practice law, I just want a fun, challenging job.
If you go to school part-time, you had better be working full-time or doing something to make yourself look awesome, otherwise you are a kid who's doing law school part time for no particular reason. If you think that working and doing school part-time is going to be easier than full-time law school, haha, HAHAHA, HA. If you are going to take a year off, take several off. One year may make you look better to law schools, though I'm not sure why, but to employers you will still look like the other kids next to you who went straight from undergrad. Law review and GPA and rank won't distinguish you from the other kids on law review with high GPAs who are ranked on either side of you.
It doesn't sound like you know what you want to do yet, so don't go yet. That's a lot of money on a maybe.
posted by good lorneing at 11:16 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am about a month away from wrapping up my fourth year of a part-time program. I waited four years between college and law school and went to school while I worked full time for the first three years. I went, as mattbcoset suggested you do, because I had spent several years working at a law firm and could not imagine myself doing anything else, and I even had a job lined up there after graduation. Then I realized I hated my job, I hated that field, I quit, and I used loans to repay the firm the tuition assistance they gave me, I spent this past year throwing myself into volunteering opportunities and taking classes I wanted to take instead of ones that accommodated my work schedule.
Law school is stressful. Law school part-time while working full-time is a level of stress most people don't know exists. I had more trouble with it than most, for reasons too long to go into. But due to that trouble I'm ranked in the lower third of the class, was definitely not on law review (I have never written a brief or a motion or anything like that except for the Fisher Price version I did 1L year), and last spring was the first semester I did homework for law school (or ever actually - thanks adult-diagnosis ADHD!). And, I'm one of a handful of people with a job lined up before graduation.
Why? Because an alum thinks I'm the bomb dot com and was hiring.
But also two sub-reasons:
1) My classmates from the part-time program either kept the jobs they had or got jobs without breaking a sweat because they are all older and have work experience, or are younger and freakishly driven. As for the full-time students, my top-ranked friends with no work experience are competing with their other top-ranked classmates with no work experience. They all have the same GPAs and equally awesome internships and clerkships and they all volunteer and are on reviews and journals but have no work experience. There are other schools in the area, with other great students with no experience. Big Law has found who it wants already. Most other places won't hire until bar results are out, or they will and offers will be contingent on passing. Which brings us to:
2) It's not a practicing position. I will take the bar, I will be licensed, but I don't care if I'm a lawyer. I just put myself through the four worst years ever and I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want to do, I don't care what the job title is. My salary is great, awesome bonus potential, 9 to 5ish hours, great benefits, growth, and time off. And it's exactly what I want to do; if you asked me to write my ideal job description, this would be it.
But mostly: an alum thinks I'm the bomb dot com and was hiring. Ultimately, that's how it works: you know someone who's hiring.
I'm happy I went to law school and I'm grateful for all the awful shit that happened. The friends I made are amazing and I look forward to running into them in a professional capacity in the years to come. I'll be paying back loans forever, but much less than most since I went part-time for three years. And like I said, I don't care if I practice law, I just want a fun, challenging job.
If you go to school part-time, you had better be working full-time or doing something to make yourself look awesome, otherwise you are a kid who's doing law school part time for no particular reason. If you think that working and doing school part-time is going to be easier than full-time law school, haha, HAHAHA, HA. If you are going to take a year off, take several off. One year may make you look better to law schools, though I'm not sure why, but to employers you will still look like the other kids next to you who went straight from undergrad. Law review and GPA and rank won't distinguish you from the other kids on law review with high GPAs who are ranked on either side of you.
It doesn't sound like you know what you want to do yet, so don't go yet. That's a lot of money on a maybe.
posted by good lorneing at 11:16 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
WOAH I missed the depression thing in your initial post. Nope nope nope. Get your poop in a group before you go to any kind of grad program. Turns out I'm bipolar, which I did not find out until the lack of sleep/downtime from law school + working full-time sent me into a really, really, really bad space for a number of months. Awful. Really really bad.
Again, I'm super-grateful for it: I had been experiencing some symptoms for a while but just thought I went through phases every now and then. Without law school stress triggering a really really awful extended period of hypomania I know I wouldn't have sought treatment. And if I hadn't gotten the bipolar nailed down I never would have found out about the ADHD.
But if you're not feeling 100%, this really does require 100%.
posted by good lorneing at 11:29 PM on April 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
Again, I'm super-grateful for it: I had been experiencing some symptoms for a while but just thought I went through phases every now and then. Without law school stress triggering a really really awful extended period of hypomania I know I wouldn't have sought treatment. And if I hadn't gotten the bipolar nailed down I never would have found out about the ADHD.
But if you're not feeling 100%, this really does require 100%.
posted by good lorneing at 11:29 PM on April 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
Take the summer after law school off.
Also, for future reference, this is the same summer that almost all the lawyers I know spent studying for the bar, so I don't think this makes a whole lot of sense.
posted by andrewesque at 6:43 AM on April 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also, for future reference, this is the same summer that almost all the lawyers I know spent studying for the bar, so I don't think this makes a whole lot of sense.
posted by andrewesque at 6:43 AM on April 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
I agree with decathecting. I am a 2008 grad of a top 20 law school and many of my classmates are chronically underemployed or have had to leave the field entirely because there are no jobs. If you can be happy doing something else, do not go to law school.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:03 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by bile and syntax at 7:03 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, for future reference, this is the same summer that almost all the lawyers I know spent studying for the bar, so I don't think this makes a whole lot of sense.
Yeah, you'll either have a job (and need to study for the bar so that you can start work in the fall with the rest of your class/program, because you'll lose your job if you don't pass the bar), or you won't have a job (and need to study for the bar to prove that you aren't a fuck-up when you hit the fall job market).
As an option, I went to a T-10 that offered a summer start to the school year. It had downsides, like the fact that my first year of law school was back-to-back-to-back semesters. Hence, the orange juice all over my laptop at the end of my spring exams.
On the upside, I took six months off between graduating law school and starting to study for the bar.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:40 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, you'll either have a job (and need to study for the bar so that you can start work in the fall with the rest of your class/program, because you'll lose your job if you don't pass the bar), or you won't have a job (and need to study for the bar to prove that you aren't a fuck-up when you hit the fall job market).
As an option, I went to a T-10 that offered a summer start to the school year. It had downsides, like the fact that my first year of law school was back-to-back-to-back semesters. Hence, the orange juice all over my laptop at the end of my spring exams.
On the upside, I took six months off between graduating law school and starting to study for the bar.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:40 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am a practicing attorney; graduated from law school 5.5 years ago. I really enjoy my (relatively new) job, but I feel like I'm an exception in the field. I attended a top-25 law school (Notre Dame), even though I was admitted to a top-10 school (Michigan) because ND gave me a significant merit-based scholarship. I went straight through from undergrad to law school, and though I don't regret attending law school, I do regret not taking a year off in between. My parents had concerns similar to your dad's, and they were skeptical that I would ever return to school if I took a year off. Hard to tell if they were right or not. So, if the question is whether you should take a year off or not, I vote take a year off.
But others have commented on the broader question of whether you should attend law school at all. I just want to add my voice to the crowd: while law school can be a good decision for some, it is probably a bad decision for the majority of law students (or perspective law students) out there. Your follow-up post above suggests you've figured this out. But if you're still considering law school at all, do a lot of reading on the issue. The legal blog Above the Law has a lot of good articles about how law school is a bad decision if you're not attending a top-tier school, and especially if you're going deeply into debt for the privilege to do so. When I was working in firm we had a couple of paralegals come and go who thought they wanted to practice law until they found out what the practice of law looked like from inside a firm. I second what others have said about the benefits of working in a firm, either as a legal assistant or a paralegal, to figure out what the life looks like. I did that for a couple of summers in college and liked it, but many have the opposite experience.
posted by craven_morhead at 7:42 AM on April 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
But others have commented on the broader question of whether you should attend law school at all. I just want to add my voice to the crowd: while law school can be a good decision for some, it is probably a bad decision for the majority of law students (or perspective law students) out there. Your follow-up post above suggests you've figured this out. But if you're still considering law school at all, do a lot of reading on the issue. The legal blog Above the Law has a lot of good articles about how law school is a bad decision if you're not attending a top-tier school, and especially if you're going deeply into debt for the privilege to do so. When I was working in firm we had a couple of paralegals come and go who thought they wanted to practice law until they found out what the practice of law looked like from inside a firm. I second what others have said about the benefits of working in a firm, either as a legal assistant or a paralegal, to figure out what the life looks like. I did that for a couple of summers in college and liked it, but many have the opposite experience.
posted by craven_morhead at 7:42 AM on April 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I actually missed the part about taking the summer after law school off. Respectfully, if your father is suggesting this, along with suggesting that you go to law school part-time so as to not stress yourself out, he's seriously misinformed about law school in general.
I'll reiterate my advice: find something different to do with your life. You're welcome to MeMail me if you want more detail. And really, do read the flow chart that mattbcoset posted above; although it's written in sort of a breezy style, it really is completely accurate and dead serious.
posted by holborne at 7:49 AM on April 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'll reiterate my advice: find something different to do with your life. You're welcome to MeMail me if you want more detail. And really, do read the flow chart that mattbcoset posted above; although it's written in sort of a breezy style, it really is completely accurate and dead serious.
posted by holborne at 7:49 AM on April 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
As someone with an obscene amout of debt I incurred at law school while following the well-meaning advice of people I respect, I can't stress enough the comments above above. I wanted to address two points specifically:
Part Time: Students admitted to a school's part time programs aren't counted when it comes time to rank the schools. Thus schools admit students with lower GPA and LSATs to part time programs so they can take their money but not hurt their rankings. Everybody knows this and part-time students have a scarlet P attached to them when it comes to interviewing for the kinds of jobs that make law school worth attending.
June LSAT: Schools are very desperate for students because the smart money is fleeing law school. Some legitimate schools (tier 1) might be willing to accept late LSATs at this point. I think Paul Campos presented evidence that some tier 1 schools were still soliciting applications into last summer for Fall 2014's class. So while this may make your school's willingness to accept a June LSAT sound less crazy, it frames the despiration of the entire law school industry and, to me, makes the entire proposition even less appealing.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 8:31 AM on April 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Part Time: Students admitted to a school's part time programs aren't counted when it comes time to rank the schools. Thus schools admit students with lower GPA and LSATs to part time programs so they can take their money but not hurt their rankings. Everybody knows this and part-time students have a scarlet P attached to them when it comes to interviewing for the kinds of jobs that make law school worth attending.
June LSAT: Schools are very desperate for students because the smart money is fleeing law school. Some legitimate schools (tier 1) might be willing to accept late LSATs at this point. I think Paul Campos presented evidence that some tier 1 schools were still soliciting applications into last summer for Fall 2014's class. So while this may make your school's willingness to accept a June LSAT sound less crazy, it frames the despiration of the entire law school industry and, to me, makes the entire proposition even less appealing.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 8:31 AM on April 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I graduated from a top-tier law school in 2000, made partner at a large law firm, and now work for the government. I went straight through from a top-ranked undergrad school to law school, and I regret that decision.
I was on the job market in 2010-2011, and it was brutal, brutal, brutal -- even as a former partner with top-tier academic credentials.
Parents who do not understand how lawyers and law school works -- especially immigrant parents, it seems -- often have the misconception that "law school" is a ticket to social mobility.
This shocks many immigrant parents paying for law school, but there are many unemployed law graduates. The employment outcomes for "lesser" schools are especially bleak.
Look up the school your dad wants you to go to on Law School Transparency and understand what's going into those numbers.
Also understand that the job market for lawyers in the 1980's and even later is different than the job market for lawyers today. It may well be that your dad interacts with lawyers his age, who had very successful career outcomes. Before going to law school, you hopefully will be able to understand how likely it is for YOU to achieve those same types of outcomes.
And finally, understand that there are an awful lot of lawyers with mental health issues and lawyers who struggle with substance abuse.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 8:50 AM on April 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
I was on the job market in 2010-2011, and it was brutal, brutal, brutal -- even as a former partner with top-tier academic credentials.
Parents who do not understand how lawyers and law school works -- especially immigrant parents, it seems -- often have the misconception that "law school" is a ticket to social mobility.
This shocks many immigrant parents paying for law school, but there are many unemployed law graduates. The employment outcomes for "lesser" schools are especially bleak.
Look up the school your dad wants you to go to on Law School Transparency and understand what's going into those numbers.
Also understand that the job market for lawyers in the 1980's and even later is different than the job market for lawyers today. It may well be that your dad interacts with lawyers his age, who had very successful career outcomes. Before going to law school, you hopefully will be able to understand how likely it is for YOU to achieve those same types of outcomes.
And finally, understand that there are an awful lot of lawyers with mental health issues and lawyers who struggle with substance abuse.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 8:50 AM on April 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
So much good advice in this thread. (Speaking as a never-practicing attorney: I went to a 2nd-tier school with a great specialty program, but could never get hired as a practicing attorney, because the government agencies, non-profits, and firms wanted top-10 graduates. I ended up doing policy/planning work for the government, went into consulting, and then back to government. I did okay, but I've spent a lot more time unemployed than the rest of my siblings.)
I will only add that while the skills one develops in law school can be useful in other fields than law (anything where an ability to read the law/regulations, think logically about them, and write clearly), if there's a chance you don't want to be a practicing attorney, there are better ways to learn those skills.
I know now what I didn't know twenty-five years ago: I could have gotten where I am today with a Master's in Public Policy, and I probably would have incurred a lot less debt along the way.
posted by suelac at 9:03 AM on April 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
I will only add that while the skills one develops in law school can be useful in other fields than law (anything where an ability to read the law/regulations, think logically about them, and write clearly), if there's a chance you don't want to be a practicing attorney, there are better ways to learn those skills.
I know now what I didn't know twenty-five years ago: I could have gotten where I am today with a Master's in Public Policy, and I probably would have incurred a lot less debt along the way.
posted by suelac at 9:03 AM on April 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Part Time: Students admitted to a school's part time programs aren't counted when it comes time to rank the schools. Thus schools admit students with lower GPA and LSATs to part time programs so they can take their money but not hurt their rankings. Everybody knows this and part-time students have a scarlet P attached to them when it comes to interviewing for the kinds of jobs that make law school worth attending.
The only alums experiencing chronic un/deremployment that I know of are full-time students and the part-time students who didn't have any work experience at all prior to law school (a stay at home mom and straight-from-college students). An entry-level attorney with several years of professional experience costs the same or negligibly more than a 25 year-old. An entry-level attorney who's used to 80-hour work weeks - between homework, their professional work, and in a lot of cases raising a family already? Bet on that horse, not the 25 year-old who was on law review (next to several part-time students). Hardly a Scarlet P. But again, you have to have that going for you, you can't just go to school part-time and get a 20 hr/week internship and hope for any kind of competitive edge in the job market.
As for lower-tier schools: if you're going to be staying in the same geographical area as where you go to school alums are a fantastic way to get jobs, and every school has alums. If you're choosing between a lower-tier school that offered you an incredible scholarship, choose that over a top-tier school you'll go into debt for. If you plan to leave the state your law school is in you definitely want a school with a national reputation, but if you're staying local it really doesn't matter.
I went to law school for a reason I didn't see on that flow chart (which, by the way, is not exactly a flow chart): creative problem-solving. I wanted to do more of the work that I did at my law firm: clients would come to us with a garden hose, a donkey, and a spatula and ask us to make them a dutch oven out of that. I loved the problem-solving aspect of the job - turns out I hated the area of practice. I have a job lined up now that involves the same kind of problem-solving, and I'm not sure why practicing law should factor into my decision to take a job if the job is what I want to do. As suelac says, there are other ways to get there that are considerably cheaper, but if you can get a good scholarship it's pretty fun.
Also: the legal field is changing fast. If you're not at big firms you're going to be doing a lot of transactional work, a lot of paperwork, a lot of things that aren't thought of classically as lawyering. Lower-tier schools are placing a lot more emphasis on skills and hands-on learning, because the fact is that reading a 200+ pages of cases about commercial transactions doesn't actually teach you how to do commercial transactions. Top-tier schools have WAY too much ego to school as a vocational endeavor, but leaving law school with skills is a smart thing to do. It will surprise you how little emphasis the law school curriculum teaches you about how to be a lawyer. If you go, take skills courses, do clinics, do extern/internships.
posted by good lorneing at 9:51 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
The only alums experiencing chronic un/deremployment that I know of are full-time students and the part-time students who didn't have any work experience at all prior to law school (a stay at home mom and straight-from-college students). An entry-level attorney with several years of professional experience costs the same or negligibly more than a 25 year-old. An entry-level attorney who's used to 80-hour work weeks - between homework, their professional work, and in a lot of cases raising a family already? Bet on that horse, not the 25 year-old who was on law review (next to several part-time students). Hardly a Scarlet P. But again, you have to have that going for you, you can't just go to school part-time and get a 20 hr/week internship and hope for any kind of competitive edge in the job market.
As for lower-tier schools: if you're going to be staying in the same geographical area as where you go to school alums are a fantastic way to get jobs, and every school has alums. If you're choosing between a lower-tier school that offered you an incredible scholarship, choose that over a top-tier school you'll go into debt for. If you plan to leave the state your law school is in you definitely want a school with a national reputation, but if you're staying local it really doesn't matter.
I went to law school for a reason I didn't see on that flow chart (which, by the way, is not exactly a flow chart): creative problem-solving. I wanted to do more of the work that I did at my law firm: clients would come to us with a garden hose, a donkey, and a spatula and ask us to make them a dutch oven out of that. I loved the problem-solving aspect of the job - turns out I hated the area of practice. I have a job lined up now that involves the same kind of problem-solving, and I'm not sure why practicing law should factor into my decision to take a job if the job is what I want to do. As suelac says, there are other ways to get there that are considerably cheaper, but if you can get a good scholarship it's pretty fun.
Also: the legal field is changing fast. If you're not at big firms you're going to be doing a lot of transactional work, a lot of paperwork, a lot of things that aren't thought of classically as lawyering. Lower-tier schools are placing a lot more emphasis on skills and hands-on learning, because the fact is that reading a 200+ pages of cases about commercial transactions doesn't actually teach you how to do commercial transactions. Top-tier schools have WAY too much ego to school as a vocational endeavor, but leaving law school with skills is a smart thing to do. It will surprise you how little emphasis the law school curriculum teaches you about how to be a lawyer. If you go, take skills courses, do clinics, do extern/internships.
posted by good lorneing at 9:51 AM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Respectfully, good lorneing, more or less everything you said is wrong, and is bad advice for the OP.
The only alums experiencing chronic un/deremployment that I know of are full-time students and the part-time students who didn't have any work experience at all prior to law school (a stay at home mom and straight-from-college students).
Not sure who you've been talking to, but I have friends who went to Columbia and NYU who can't get jobs because they didn't make partner at their firm and couldn't get hired because they were too expensive at that point in their careers. They have either had to take per diem work (when they can get it), hang a shingle, or they've left the practice of law altogether. Making it sound like the people who are underemployed or unemployed are that way because of poor planning on their part is just irresponsible, sorry.
As for lower-tier schools: if you're going to be staying in the same geographical area as where you go to school alums are a fantastic way to get jobs, and every school has alums.
That's half right: every law school has alums. But "School alums are a fantastic way to get jobs" -- no. Obviously, networking is important, but alums can't conjure up jobs out of thin air. Even the large and well-respected firms are still pretty actively laying off associates left and right, and you can't get jobs that no longer exist no matter how much the alumni want to help you.
An entry-level attorney who's used to 80-hour work weeks - between homework, their professional work, and in a lot of cases raising a family already? Bet on that horse, not the 25 year-old who was on law review (next to several part-time students).
Maybe you view it that way, but the law firms sure don't. The law is one of the most snobby and classist of professions, and they want you to look good on paper, i.e. good grades and law review, full stop. And sad to say, they mostly want the 25-year-olds, not the older students; the former are more willing to stay up until 2 AM putting a blue Post-It on every third document (which is what first-years do). They won't come out and say it, of course, but they are not likely to be terribly impressed with the person who sports a 3.1 GPA from the second-tier school, no matter how many kids he's raised and no matter what his pre-law-school resume says.
As for lower-tier schools: if you're going to be staying in the same geographical area as where you go to school alums are a fantastic way to get jobs, and every school has alums. If you're choosing between a lower-tier school that offered you an incredible scholarship, choose that over a top-tier school you'll go into debt for.
Nope nope nope nope nope nope nope. I cannot emphasize how wrong this statement is; it gets into the realm of "not even wrong." The legal profession is also driven by prestige; you go to the best school you get into, full stop, no discussion. This is one of the hugest regrets of my career; I went to the middling school that give me a 50% merit scholarship instead of the top ten school. Terrible, terrible, terrible mistake, and if I could pick one thing in my life to re-do, that would be it. I cannot tell you how many places would not even interview me because I didn't go to a top ten school, and I graduated in the top four percent of my class (17 out of 440). Employers don't care. $80,000 in debt, as opposed to $160,000, is still debt; only difference is you'll have $80M in debt with a JD that won't get you hired. (One caveat: if OP can get a full scholarship and can live at home, so that she comes out with zero debt, that might be an ok option, if she doesn't mind maybe not getting a job and having gone through three years of law school for no reason.)
If you plan to leave the state your law school is in you definitely want a school with a national reputation, but if you're staying local it really doesn't matter
See comment above. This is just flat wrong.
I went to law school for a reason I didn't see on that flow chart (which, by the way, is not exactly a flow chart): creative problem-solving. I wanted to do more of the work that I did at my law firm: clients would come to us with a garden hose, a donkey, and a spatula and ask us to make them a dutch oven out of that. I loved the problem-solving aspect of the job - turns out I hated the area of practice. I have a job lined up now that involves the same kind of problem-solving, and I'm not sure why practicing law should factor into my decision to take a job if the job is what I want to do. As suelac says, there are other ways to get there that are considerably cheaper, but if you can get a good scholarship it's pretty fun.
Again, respectfully, as you suggest, you don't need to go to law school to work in a job where you can engage in creative problem solving. In fact, it's an actively bad idea; he vast majority of law practice is sheer tedium (try drafting answers day after day if you want to see what I mean). If it's creative problem solving you want, learn to code.
Also: the legal field is changing fast.
Ok, you got this one right in form, but not in theory. It's changing fast in that it's getting harder and harder to get a job, and harder and harder to avoid being crushed by debt you can't pay off. If that's your idea of a good time, OP, go for it.
posted by holborne at 12:22 PM on April 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
The only alums experiencing chronic un/deremployment that I know of are full-time students and the part-time students who didn't have any work experience at all prior to law school (a stay at home mom and straight-from-college students).
Not sure who you've been talking to, but I have friends who went to Columbia and NYU who can't get jobs because they didn't make partner at their firm and couldn't get hired because they were too expensive at that point in their careers. They have either had to take per diem work (when they can get it), hang a shingle, or they've left the practice of law altogether. Making it sound like the people who are underemployed or unemployed are that way because of poor planning on their part is just irresponsible, sorry.
As for lower-tier schools: if you're going to be staying in the same geographical area as where you go to school alums are a fantastic way to get jobs, and every school has alums.
That's half right: every law school has alums. But "School alums are a fantastic way to get jobs" -- no. Obviously, networking is important, but alums can't conjure up jobs out of thin air. Even the large and well-respected firms are still pretty actively laying off associates left and right, and you can't get jobs that no longer exist no matter how much the alumni want to help you.
An entry-level attorney who's used to 80-hour work weeks - between homework, their professional work, and in a lot of cases raising a family already? Bet on that horse, not the 25 year-old who was on law review (next to several part-time students).
Maybe you view it that way, but the law firms sure don't. The law is one of the most snobby and classist of professions, and they want you to look good on paper, i.e. good grades and law review, full stop. And sad to say, they mostly want the 25-year-olds, not the older students; the former are more willing to stay up until 2 AM putting a blue Post-It on every third document (which is what first-years do). They won't come out and say it, of course, but they are not likely to be terribly impressed with the person who sports a 3.1 GPA from the second-tier school, no matter how many kids he's raised and no matter what his pre-law-school resume says.
As for lower-tier schools: if you're going to be staying in the same geographical area as where you go to school alums are a fantastic way to get jobs, and every school has alums. If you're choosing between a lower-tier school that offered you an incredible scholarship, choose that over a top-tier school you'll go into debt for.
Nope nope nope nope nope nope nope. I cannot emphasize how wrong this statement is; it gets into the realm of "not even wrong." The legal profession is also driven by prestige; you go to the best school you get into, full stop, no discussion. This is one of the hugest regrets of my career; I went to the middling school that give me a 50% merit scholarship instead of the top ten school. Terrible, terrible, terrible mistake, and if I could pick one thing in my life to re-do, that would be it. I cannot tell you how many places would not even interview me because I didn't go to a top ten school, and I graduated in the top four percent of my class (17 out of 440). Employers don't care. $80,000 in debt, as opposed to $160,000, is still debt; only difference is you'll have $80M in debt with a JD that won't get you hired. (One caveat: if OP can get a full scholarship and can live at home, so that she comes out with zero debt, that might be an ok option, if she doesn't mind maybe not getting a job and having gone through three years of law school for no reason.)
If you plan to leave the state your law school is in you definitely want a school with a national reputation, but if you're staying local it really doesn't matter
See comment above. This is just flat wrong.
I went to law school for a reason I didn't see on that flow chart (which, by the way, is not exactly a flow chart): creative problem-solving. I wanted to do more of the work that I did at my law firm: clients would come to us with a garden hose, a donkey, and a spatula and ask us to make them a dutch oven out of that. I loved the problem-solving aspect of the job - turns out I hated the area of practice. I have a job lined up now that involves the same kind of problem-solving, and I'm not sure why practicing law should factor into my decision to take a job if the job is what I want to do. As suelac says, there are other ways to get there that are considerably cheaper, but if you can get a good scholarship it's pretty fun.
Again, respectfully, as you suggest, you don't need to go to law school to work in a job where you can engage in creative problem solving. In fact, it's an actively bad idea; he vast majority of law practice is sheer tedium (try drafting answers day after day if you want to see what I mean). If it's creative problem solving you want, learn to code.
Also: the legal field is changing fast.
Ok, you got this one right in form, but not in theory. It's changing fast in that it's getting harder and harder to get a job, and harder and harder to avoid being crushed by debt you can't pay off. If that's your idea of a good time, OP, go for it.
posted by holborne at 12:22 PM on April 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Everything you say is correct with regard to mid-size to large law firms. I was not talking about that at all, which I thought I made clear. The legal field, and careers in law, are much more than law firms and certainly more than meat-grinding beat-the-first-years-into-submission firms. If you go to law school hoping for a $100,000+ starting salary at a fancy firm on a partner track, there is an incredibly slim chance you will define yourself as anything but underemployed. If that is what someone wants out of law school then no, they absolutely shouldn't go. Also, I cannot think of a single area of practice where there is not a huge emphasis on creative problem solving: trial strategy, negotiations, drafting persuasive briefs - it's about finding a solution with what you have in front of you.
Again, this is why OP needs to take some time to figure out what it is that they want to do for a living. A law degree might help them and it might not, and this thread is an incredibly good example of how prestige and big money are awful reasons to go to law school right now.
posted by good lorneing at 12:44 PM on April 17, 2015
Again, this is why OP needs to take some time to figure out what it is that they want to do for a living. A law degree might help them and it might not, and this thread is an incredibly good example of how prestige and big money are awful reasons to go to law school right now.
posted by good lorneing at 12:44 PM on April 17, 2015
Admissions officer at a prestigious law school here: I'll skip the editorializing about whether law school is a good proposition. Any comment that tries to answer that question is ignoring a lot of nuance because "law school" is not a singular entity. It's not something that is a good decision or a bad decision. Instead, the U.S. has 200+ law schools, some of which are good for some people, and some of which are quite terrible for some people. Blanket advice in this arena is rarely useful. /rant
As for whether to take a year off, I think it's a very good decision for many people. While I support people who decide to go straight through to law school (as I did), I usually advise those who are undecided to strongly consider taking at least one year off. If you're already leaning towards doing so, I would advise that it is clearly the right choice. Your father may be paying, but he isn't the one who has to live with the ramifications of this decision. If you don't feel intellectually, motivationally, or emotionally ready, you should absolutely take some time for yourself to develop into the sort of law student you aspire to be.
Good luck, and pm me if you want to talk further.
posted by soonertbone at 4:02 PM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
As for whether to take a year off, I think it's a very good decision for many people. While I support people who decide to go straight through to law school (as I did), I usually advise those who are undecided to strongly consider taking at least one year off. If you're already leaning towards doing so, I would advise that it is clearly the right choice. Your father may be paying, but he isn't the one who has to live with the ramifications of this decision. If you don't feel intellectually, motivationally, or emotionally ready, you should absolutely take some time for yourself to develop into the sort of law student you aspire to be.
Good luck, and pm me if you want to talk further.
posted by soonertbone at 4:02 PM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
The best advice I can give you about law school is never to let other people's happiness or unhappiness with their choices dictate your choices. I've known happy and miserable people who went to all kinds of law schools for all kinds of reasons and are and aren't still in the field. Make your choices based on research and logic and actual information (you can find out whether schools place their graduates or not).
You can get into Harvard, go, and be miserable. You can take other paths and be happy. One of my college professors, who was an academic, wanted me to apply to Yale. Another, who was a practicing lawyer, said, "Uch, what do you want to do that for?" There are lots of ways to be happy. Don't commit to the expense of any program unless you know how you'll pay for it, but I promise: there are a lot of ways for your story to go, no matter what you do next. That's the great part and the scary part.
posted by Linda_Holmes at 8:19 PM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
You can get into Harvard, go, and be miserable. You can take other paths and be happy. One of my college professors, who was an academic, wanted me to apply to Yale. Another, who was a practicing lawyer, said, "Uch, what do you want to do that for?" There are lots of ways to be happy. Don't commit to the expense of any program unless you know how you'll pay for it, but I promise: there are a lot of ways for your story to go, no matter what you do next. That's the great part and the scary part.
posted by Linda_Holmes at 8:19 PM on April 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm a lawyer. Don't go to law school. Any law school that will accept you without an LSAT score isn't worth attending.
posted by ewiar at 3:33 PM on April 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by ewiar at 3:33 PM on April 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
And in case anyone is still reading, the New York Times is talking about this very thing, leading the article with the story of a Columbia Law graduate who can't a job as a lawyer. Just in case anyone is still laboring under the illusion that you'll be fine as long as you do all the right things. (Later in the article is a guy who's $328,000 in debt after law school.)
In sum: it's a really, really, really bad idea to go to law school.
posted by holborne at 8:51 PM on April 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
In sum: it's a really, really, really bad idea to go to law school.
posted by holborne at 8:51 PM on April 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by futureisunwritten at 5:26 PM on April 16, 2015 [3 favorites]