How traumatic is elementary school in a language you don't speak at all?
April 14, 2015 2:39 PM Subscribe
We recently moved from Toronto to Montreal and are planning to stay here for at least a few years, possibly permanently. Our 5 year old daughter starts Kindergarten in the fall, and we would very much like to send her to a French school, but will this do her more harm than good?
She currently attends a bilingual daycare, but I get the impression that it leans towards English, and the teachers definitely talk to her in English when they are speaking one-on-one. So far, she has been extremely reluctant to learn French, even saying on more than one occasion: "I don't want to talk in French. I want to speak English like people speak."
We see obvious value in her becoming bilingual, especially if Montreal, as we hope, becomes our long term home. I know that immersion is going to be the best way for her to pick up the language. But she is very shy and quiet already, and there's a part of me that's worried that she'll just clam up completely. We live in a largely Anglo neighbourhood, so it's very likely that her teachers (and the majority of her classmates) would be bilingual at a French school, so I'm not worried about her being unable to communicate something important. But, if it makes her miserable, it will be very hard on all of us.
On the home front, my wife's French is decent and improving (she works in a majority French office), but she is still far from fluent. I am working on my own French, but it's still not much beyond what I learned in high school (I work from home and entirely in English). So, realistically, we're not going to be speaking a lot of French at home by September. We have another daughter who is 18 months, and I'm sure she will become bilingual with no effort at all. Wanting to send the two of them to the same school when the baby reaches kindergarten age is a minor factor.
So, I'd love to hear form other parents who have put their kids in foreign language schools (or from adults who remember going through the same thing themselves when they were children). How hard was it? How long did it take to adjust? Did it change their personalities or behaviour?
Also, will there be problems for us interacting with the teachers and the school bureaucracy as parents with sub-par French? I don't anticipate as much, but you never know.
Thank you!
She currently attends a bilingual daycare, but I get the impression that it leans towards English, and the teachers definitely talk to her in English when they are speaking one-on-one. So far, she has been extremely reluctant to learn French, even saying on more than one occasion: "I don't want to talk in French. I want to speak English like people speak."
We see obvious value in her becoming bilingual, especially if Montreal, as we hope, becomes our long term home. I know that immersion is going to be the best way for her to pick up the language. But she is very shy and quiet already, and there's a part of me that's worried that she'll just clam up completely. We live in a largely Anglo neighbourhood, so it's very likely that her teachers (and the majority of her classmates) would be bilingual at a French school, so I'm not worried about her being unable to communicate something important. But, if it makes her miserable, it will be very hard on all of us.
On the home front, my wife's French is decent and improving (she works in a majority French office), but she is still far from fluent. I am working on my own French, but it's still not much beyond what I learned in high school (I work from home and entirely in English). So, realistically, we're not going to be speaking a lot of French at home by September. We have another daughter who is 18 months, and I'm sure she will become bilingual with no effort at all. Wanting to send the two of them to the same school when the baby reaches kindergarten age is a minor factor.
So, I'd love to hear form other parents who have put their kids in foreign language schools (or from adults who remember going through the same thing themselves when they were children). How hard was it? How long did it take to adjust? Did it change their personalities or behaviour?
Also, will there be problems for us interacting with the teachers and the school bureaucracy as parents with sub-par French? I don't anticipate as much, but you never know.
Thank you!
I moved to Canada when I was 8, at which point I knew ZERO English.
A year later, I was pretty much fluent. I honestly have no idea how...it just happened by being exposed to it all day at school.
posted by Sonic_Molson at 2:49 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
A year later, I was pretty much fluent. I honestly have no idea how...it just happened by being exposed to it all day at school.
posted by Sonic_Molson at 2:49 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Oh one thing that I should have mentioned is that we do have the option of sending her to an English school which, being in Quebec, will have a much heavier French language component than elsewhere in Canada. So that is the option we are weighing this against. My wife and I strongly prefer the idea of sending her to French school to help her become fluent as quickly as possible, but I want to make sure that's not just an ideological decision, but the one that is actually best for her.
posted by 256 at 2:50 PM on April 14, 2015
posted by 256 at 2:50 PM on April 14, 2015
i moved to the U.S. at age 9 and didn't speak a word of english. i don't remember the language barrier being traumatic or anything, and i was on the shy side of the spectrum too. i imagine kids even younger will adjust fine.
it seems like she "wants to speak English like people speak" because that's what the people around her speak, so she just wants to fit in. i think the immersive part of the school will take care of that issue, and then she'll want to speak French like the people speak.
posted by monologish at 2:52 PM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
it seems like she "wants to speak English like people speak" because that's what the people around her speak, so she just wants to fit in. i think the immersive part of the school will take care of that issue, and then she'll want to speak French like the people speak.
posted by monologish at 2:52 PM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
I moved countries at 8 and went to a school where I didn't speak the language at all. I was shy (but whiny) as a child. Even with great ESL teachers, it took me about 2 years before I could comfortably communicate the way others could, and 3 years until I could actually understand what I was reading in a chapter book. I found it very difficult to be the one child who couldn't communicate and definitely got picked on quite a lot (though it might have also been just cultural differences, rather than just lack of communication). I had one classmate who spoke the same language as me, but she very quickly (and understandably) got tired of all my questions of "what did he say?" "what did she mean?" "what does that say?" And in general, I felt stupid and just couldn't keep up.
Look, I think being bilingual is great, and I'm glad that I learned English. (My spouse only speaks English, so obviously I've improved.) But every time I've been to an immersion program, or someone I know has been to one, kids of the same language always stuck together. Or if they didn't, the adults of the program have to very actively encourage integration.
So I think your child would adapt and probably even benefit from the immersion, but asking her to not be miserable (at least for a little bit) may or may not be realistic. And your child being younger than I was, and English being closer to French than my native language means she will probably adapt much quicker.
On a related note, there are papers that say people change personalities depending on their spoken language but there are also articles claiming the opposite.
posted by ethidda at 2:52 PM on April 14, 2015
Look, I think being bilingual is great, and I'm glad that I learned English. (My spouse only speaks English, so obviously I've improved.) But every time I've been to an immersion program, or someone I know has been to one, kids of the same language always stuck together. Or if they didn't, the adults of the program have to very actively encourage integration.
So I think your child would adapt and probably even benefit from the immersion, but asking her to not be miserable (at least for a little bit) may or may not be realistic. And your child being younger than I was, and English being closer to French than my native language means she will probably adapt much quicker.
On a related note, there are papers that say people change personalities depending on their spoken language but there are also articles claiming the opposite.
posted by ethidda at 2:52 PM on April 14, 2015
Anecdata, but my father spoke nothing but German until he entered first grade after immigrating to the US: he learned English by basically being dropped in with all the other kids. Kids are resilient and pick up a language easy, so your daughter should be fine.
posted by easily confused at 2:59 PM on April 14, 2015
posted by easily confused at 2:59 PM on April 14, 2015
Last year we put our 5 year old daughter into Spanish-immersion kindergarten. Her Spanish skills were Dora the Explorer level and the teacher spoke no English in the classroom. She learned to read and do math and science in Spanish at school and we've been working on her English reading at home. She's in first grade and she loves it though she tends to be quiet in the classroom because she's still not completely fluent like her classmates who speak Spanish at home. At our house I have a high school understanding of Spanish and my wife is not-quite fluent. My mother in law, who is fully fluent, does chat with my daughter in Spanish now and then.
Kids are resilient. Five years old or thereabouts is basically the perfect time to pick up a second language. Chances are your kid will find the other kids who speak English on the playground (my daughter did).
posted by sleeping bear at 2:59 PM on April 14, 2015
Kids are resilient. Five years old or thereabouts is basically the perfect time to pick up a second language. Chances are your kid will find the other kids who speak English on the playground (my daughter did).
posted by sleeping bear at 2:59 PM on April 14, 2015
Just a data point: I moved to Montreal fifteen years ago, and have learned French since, but if I had a time machine I would go back to when I was five and ask for French immersion.
posted by chrillsicka at 3:03 PM on April 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by chrillsicka at 3:03 PM on April 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
Have you seen this recent question? Some good answers there.
Personally speaking, my family moved to the US when I just turned 6. I knew zero English, was placed in an American kindergarten, and my mother says that I was fluent in about 6 months. So I'd say 5 years is a great age to start immersion, but then I wasn't a shy kid by any means.
I do, however, still remember crying and crying on the school bus coming home on the first day because I couldn't tell the driver where my house was (he knew, but I didn't know that). I will also admit to the world 40 years after the fact that I had an accident at school because I couldn't tell my teacher I reeeeally had to use the restroom... Not trying to scare you, but there will be bumps like that. But then there will be bumps in school no matter what, I think (I'm a mom, too).
How she balances the two languages as she grows up is a big "depends."
posted by misozaki at 3:19 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Personally speaking, my family moved to the US when I just turned 6. I knew zero English, was placed in an American kindergarten, and my mother says that I was fluent in about 6 months. So I'd say 5 years is a great age to start immersion, but then I wasn't a shy kid by any means.
I do, however, still remember crying and crying on the school bus coming home on the first day because I couldn't tell the driver where my house was (he knew, but I didn't know that). I will also admit to the world 40 years after the fact that I had an accident at school because I couldn't tell my teacher I reeeeally had to use the restroom... Not trying to scare you, but there will be bumps like that. But then there will be bumps in school no matter what, I think (I'm a mom, too).
How she balances the two languages as she grows up is a big "depends."
posted by misozaki at 3:19 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's kindergarten. She will be able to do it in French. She will also not be the first child in the program whose family speaks English at home. I'm not a product of that system, but several of my cousins are, and none of them spoke French at home.
Give it a shot. There are many more potential upsides than downsides to this. And you will die of the cuteness when she starts speaking French with a tiny, perfect French accent.
posted by zennie at 3:35 PM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Give it a shot. There are many more potential upsides than downsides to this. And you will die of the cuteness when she starts speaking French with a tiny, perfect French accent.
posted by zennie at 3:35 PM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
To your question, my mother and maternal grandmother both learned English (this is in the US) by being dropped off at school on the first day of kindergarten. Neither ever criticized that experience.
We have another daughter who is 18 months, and I'm sure she will become bilingual with no effort at all.
I am the parent of two bilingual children of elementary school age in the US. Please believe me when I say it is not effortless. It is blood to the end. You talk about how you and your wife want her to become bilingual as soon as possible, but your daughter says she doesn't want to speak French. You cannot make someone learn a language they don't want to. My wife and I have enough of a challenge on our hands where our kids actually like speaking their L2. I wish people would not say that children "pick up" language - that implies an ease that just is not there.
If your daughter wants to speak French, she will. If she doesn't, she won't. That would not be the end of the world and she can always decide to learn French or Persian or no foreign language at all later in her life. If you are determined to send her to the French school, I think that you and your wife need to make a plan of "if she is still miserable after X weeks, we pull her out". Maybe give it four to six weeks to see if she truly doesn't want to speak French.
posted by Tanizaki at 3:37 PM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
We have another daughter who is 18 months, and I'm sure she will become bilingual with no effort at all.
I am the parent of two bilingual children of elementary school age in the US. Please believe me when I say it is not effortless. It is blood to the end. You talk about how you and your wife want her to become bilingual as soon as possible, but your daughter says she doesn't want to speak French. You cannot make someone learn a language they don't want to. My wife and I have enough of a challenge on our hands where our kids actually like speaking their L2. I wish people would not say that children "pick up" language - that implies an ease that just is not there.
If your daughter wants to speak French, she will. If she doesn't, she won't. That would not be the end of the world and she can always decide to learn French or Persian or no foreign language at all later in her life. If you are determined to send her to the French school, I think that you and your wife need to make a plan of "if she is still miserable after X weeks, we pull her out". Maybe give it four to six weeks to see if she truly doesn't want to speak French.
posted by Tanizaki at 3:37 PM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Being bilingual has so many upsides. Yes, I had a tough time growing up, especially during puberty, but speaking 2 languages fluently has so many advantages.
I moved to the US at age 3. According to my mother, I cried everyday for a month, but was fluent 6 months later.
Having seen many kids who don't speak the local language, I'd say they are all resilient until about puberty. After that, kids seem to have more trouble making friends, which I feel is the key to learning a language. It also helps if the kid is not around other kids who speak his language.
The other thing you need to watch out - even if you speak your mother language at home, your kids will use the language which is easiest for them. This is especially true if there is more than 1 kid at home. I spoke Japanese at home and with my very few Japanese friends, but my Japanese was very poor and I had a strong American accent which I was teased about when I moved back to Japan at age 12.
Retaining the language requires effort. After I moved back to Japan, my parents basically forced me to speak English, volunteer as a translator, take the TOEIC test, etc. It helps, and most people can't tell that I haven't lived in the US in over 20 years.
Again, there are bumps. I remember very few of them about moving to the US, but I remember so many things which happened after we moved back to Japan. I was teased, I was called a foreigner, I cried every night for 2 years wanting to move back to the US. However, after high school, there have only been advantages.
posted by xmts at 3:40 PM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I moved to the US at age 3. According to my mother, I cried everyday for a month, but was fluent 6 months later.
Having seen many kids who don't speak the local language, I'd say they are all resilient until about puberty. After that, kids seem to have more trouble making friends, which I feel is the key to learning a language. It also helps if the kid is not around other kids who speak his language.
The other thing you need to watch out - even if you speak your mother language at home, your kids will use the language which is easiest for them. This is especially true if there is more than 1 kid at home. I spoke Japanese at home and with my very few Japanese friends, but my Japanese was very poor and I had a strong American accent which I was teased about when I moved back to Japan at age 12.
Retaining the language requires effort. After I moved back to Japan, my parents basically forced me to speak English, volunteer as a translator, take the TOEIC test, etc. It helps, and most people can't tell that I haven't lived in the US in over 20 years.
Again, there are bumps. I remember very few of them about moving to the US, but I remember so many things which happened after we moved back to Japan. I was teased, I was called a foreigner, I cried every night for 2 years wanting to move back to the US. However, after high school, there have only been advantages.
posted by xmts at 3:40 PM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
My son has gone to a Spanish immersion school since kindergarten. We love it and it's been wonderful. In retrospect, I honestly cannot even remember what we told him about it beforehand! Huh.
He loves it. His school is 80+% native Spanish speakers, but the vast majority of those kids also speak fluent English by the time they enroll in kindergarten. So he was in a similar situation as your daughter, it sounds like (his classmates are already bilingual and he was truly learning a language from zero).
It's a 90/10 model school in case you're interested, but to be honest that 10% in kindy is barely relevant. It's mostly the "specials" such as PE and library that are in English. All grammar, math, science, etc. was taught in Spanish; the primary teachers didn't speak in English to the children.
It's such a huge advantage to learn so early and get the accent down - I watch these kids, and they attempt proper pronunciations and accents so unselfconsciously. It also made my son a much better reader in English, almost instantly. I'd highly recommend it to anyone.
posted by peep at 3:48 PM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
He loves it. His school is 80+% native Spanish speakers, but the vast majority of those kids also speak fluent English by the time they enroll in kindergarten. So he was in a similar situation as your daughter, it sounds like (his classmates are already bilingual and he was truly learning a language from zero).
It's a 90/10 model school in case you're interested, but to be honest that 10% in kindy is barely relevant. It's mostly the "specials" such as PE and library that are in English. All grammar, math, science, etc. was taught in Spanish; the primary teachers didn't speak in English to the children.
It's such a huge advantage to learn so early and get the accent down - I watch these kids, and they attempt proper pronunciations and accents so unselfconsciously. It also made my son a much better reader in English, almost instantly. I'd highly recommend it to anyone.
posted by peep at 3:48 PM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I moved to the US when I was 5 and I was extremely shy and quiet. I didn't know any English, but I don't think it was a problem at all. Kids pick up languages really fast, much faster and fluidly than adults. In fact, I don't even really remember what the language-learning process was - I just somehow picked up English because enough people around me spoke it. Interestingly, about 60-70% of the other kids in the class didn't speak much English either (they were native Spanish speakers), but over the course of the year, we all became fluent in English.
posted by movicont at 4:16 PM on April 14, 2015
posted by movicont at 4:16 PM on April 14, 2015
I'm going to second the other commenter who said they wished they'd been put in immersion sooner. I started learning French when I was about 10 and it was an uphill battle. Kids who were younger than me took it up like a sponge, which I resented at the time.
Later, in college, I got a scholarship that paid me to go ahead and get my science degree as planned at my state school (in a state where students usually flee to more popular states/schools), but to also get a bachelor's degree in French language. To incentivize this deal, I also got to be an exchange student for a year and live with a host family. I was 18, had been learning French for about 8 years without any element of immersion, and moved in with my wonderful hosts feeling like I knew a lot of the language other than how to actually be conversant in it. OMG I cannot express how immediately and totally the difference between immersive and non-immersive language acquisition became clear. Night and day. I still talk about that period feeling like I could feel my brain making new connections and generating skills on an almost day-to-day basis. I was telling this to one of my instructors at the time, and she very casually responded (paraphrasing), 'now you're remembering what it was like to learn English as an infant.' That has stuck with me ever since!
At 5, your daughter is a mental sponge of such plasticity that there's almost no way to relate as an adult. She's biologically adapted to language acquisition during this period in her life, and though, yes, she may feel awkward or shy for a while, in a very short time she will recognize that she can now talk like a whole bunch of other people. Even better, she'll likely get to the state--quickly--that takes adults years, decades to reach, in which her thoughts happen in English and French, rather than her French being a game of trying to listen, translate and then respond. It's the difference between a mother tongue and some high school French. In ten or fifteen years, she will almost certainly thank you for gifting her une deuxième langue maternelle.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:22 PM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Later, in college, I got a scholarship that paid me to go ahead and get my science degree as planned at my state school (in a state where students usually flee to more popular states/schools), but to also get a bachelor's degree in French language. To incentivize this deal, I also got to be an exchange student for a year and live with a host family. I was 18, had been learning French for about 8 years without any element of immersion, and moved in with my wonderful hosts feeling like I knew a lot of the language other than how to actually be conversant in it. OMG I cannot express how immediately and totally the difference between immersive and non-immersive language acquisition became clear. Night and day. I still talk about that period feeling like I could feel my brain making new connections and generating skills on an almost day-to-day basis. I was telling this to one of my instructors at the time, and she very casually responded (paraphrasing), 'now you're remembering what it was like to learn English as an infant.' That has stuck with me ever since!
At 5, your daughter is a mental sponge of such plasticity that there's almost no way to relate as an adult. She's biologically adapted to language acquisition during this period in her life, and though, yes, she may feel awkward or shy for a while, in a very short time she will recognize that she can now talk like a whole bunch of other people. Even better, she'll likely get to the state--quickly--that takes adults years, decades to reach, in which her thoughts happen in English and French, rather than her French being a game of trying to listen, translate and then respond. It's the difference between a mother tongue and some high school French. In ten or fifteen years, she will almost certainly thank you for gifting her une deuxième langue maternelle.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:22 PM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
I moved to Germany when I was 10, and was put in a german school without knowing any german. I really hated it. I became fluent in german after a couple of years, but it was *work* and honestly i think it has made me shyer and hide in the background even more than i otherwise would have. I remember me and my parents struggling over my homework for hours and hours and feeling like a failure and stupid. That part probably only lasted a few months to a year but that's a long time as a child. My sister was 8 and more outgoing and picked up the language a bit easier but it was still work for her and took at least 6 months to adjust. The idea I hear a lot that kids are resilient and pick up a language easily felt like a large part of the problem tbh (and was a narrative i was very aware of failing) It certainly can be true but it can also be linked to kind of not taking children's lives and problems seriously?
(I think there's this idea that there's a 'magic time' for language learning, where kids just have to immerse themselves fully and they'll speak the language without any extra effort or input. This for sure is partly true, largely, I suspect, because at a young age children are spending a lot of time and getting lots of guidance basically still learning their native language. The flipside of this idea though is the idea that if children don't immerse themselves right now they'll be losing something they can never regain, wasting an opportunity they don't fully understand (for instance I remember my parents getting angry with me for wanting to make friends with english speaking children at school- because how was i going to learn, when honestly it was a lifeline for me). I think the whole childhood is a magical language learning time view can be really counterproductive and cause lots of unnecessary anguish: I know lots of people whose parents immersed them in a language at a young age, which they spoke for a while but then forgot entirely, or whose knowledge was really rudimentary and quickly overtaken by children getting regular lessons in the same language at school (this particularly so for 'prestige' languages taught by rich parents with the idea of children learning languages young as a kind of lifehack*). Similarly I know lots of people who have learnt to speech languages with great degrees of fluency in their teens and adulthood.
Which is not to say that the french language school is a bad idea it sounds like it could work really well, but just to give some perspectives against the common ideas that it'll (1) necessarily be easy, or be hard but at a time of life that doesn't really count (2) make her 'fluent' in a way that can never be undone
*I think the whole thing is also really linked to ideas of naturalness and nativeness and what counts as speaking a language fluently in a really pernicious way (that is also really pervasive and runs deep)- i will concede that it is easier for people who learn a language young to not have an accent that bares traces of other languages the person speaks as like the primary marker of really *knowing* a language like its part of your being, which i think should be fought against)
posted by ninjablob at 4:24 PM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
(I think there's this idea that there's a 'magic time' for language learning, where kids just have to immerse themselves fully and they'll speak the language without any extra effort or input. This for sure is partly true, largely, I suspect, because at a young age children are spending a lot of time and getting lots of guidance basically still learning their native language. The flipside of this idea though is the idea that if children don't immerse themselves right now they'll be losing something they can never regain, wasting an opportunity they don't fully understand (for instance I remember my parents getting angry with me for wanting to make friends with english speaking children at school- because how was i going to learn, when honestly it was a lifeline for me). I think the whole childhood is a magical language learning time view can be really counterproductive and cause lots of unnecessary anguish: I know lots of people whose parents immersed them in a language at a young age, which they spoke for a while but then forgot entirely, or whose knowledge was really rudimentary and quickly overtaken by children getting regular lessons in the same language at school (this particularly so for 'prestige' languages taught by rich parents with the idea of children learning languages young as a kind of lifehack*). Similarly I know lots of people who have learnt to speech languages with great degrees of fluency in their teens and adulthood.
Which is not to say that the french language school is a bad idea it sounds like it could work really well, but just to give some perspectives against the common ideas that it'll (1) necessarily be easy, or be hard but at a time of life that doesn't really count (2) make her 'fluent' in a way that can never be undone
*I think the whole thing is also really linked to ideas of naturalness and nativeness and what counts as speaking a language fluently in a really pernicious way (that is also really pervasive and runs deep)- i will concede that it is easier for people who learn a language young to not have an accent that bares traces of other languages the person speaks as like the primary marker of really *knowing* a language like its part of your being, which i think should be fought against)
posted by ninjablob at 4:24 PM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
When I was 3, we moved to France. We lived on an American Air Force base, and spoke English at home, so I just picked up the odd word of French, even though my parents were pretty fluent in good basic French and had French friends etc.. When I was 5, my parents put me in French kindergarten, where the teacher spoke only French to us and we had to answer back only in French. I was a really shy kid (I mean I was super shy and a bit socially awkward), but I just remember some whispered conversations with the other kids (some of whom knew English) to help me figure out what was what, and then I got pretty fluent in French pretty fast (to the point that by the end of that school year my parents would sometimes ask me to translate for them, because my accent was better than theirs).
I don't see the downside of putting your daughter in French school, and you can certainly make sure she has a few survival words in hand prior to starting school (such as words for the bathroom), as that will help her feel more confident. For me, the big motivator in learning French fast was being able to communicate with everyone at school.
By the way, we still spoke English at home; the total French immersion at school (plus going to French shops in the town, etc. and speaking some French there) was more than good enough for me to learn French. My parents never pushed me to speak or practice it at home unless I wanted to, beyond doing my homework, which was all in French of course.
This was informed partly by my mother and her family having emigrated to America from Germany when my mother was 6. My mother was put into American school knowing no English, and picked it up very fast at that young age. She was pretty fluent in about a year. However, like many immigrant families they spoke mostly German at home, even though her parents both knew some English already when they came to America. She and her 3 year old sister learned their accentless American English at school and from talking to their friends. Her parents had fairly heavy German accents their whole lives, despite having to speak English at their jobs.
Sadly, we moved back to the U.S. when I was 6 and I went back to English only schools, and lost all the French. This is one of the big regrets of my life, that I was unable to keep up the French in some kind of bilingual school (such schools were rare and too expensive for my parents at that time.)
posted by gudrun at 4:56 PM on April 14, 2015
I don't see the downside of putting your daughter in French school, and you can certainly make sure she has a few survival words in hand prior to starting school (such as words for the bathroom), as that will help her feel more confident. For me, the big motivator in learning French fast was being able to communicate with everyone at school.
By the way, we still spoke English at home; the total French immersion at school (plus going to French shops in the town, etc. and speaking some French there) was more than good enough for me to learn French. My parents never pushed me to speak or practice it at home unless I wanted to, beyond doing my homework, which was all in French of course.
This was informed partly by my mother and her family having emigrated to America from Germany when my mother was 6. My mother was put into American school knowing no English, and picked it up very fast at that young age. She was pretty fluent in about a year. However, like many immigrant families they spoke mostly German at home, even though her parents both knew some English already when they came to America. She and her 3 year old sister learned their accentless American English at school and from talking to their friends. Her parents had fairly heavy German accents their whole lives, despite having to speak English at their jobs.
Sadly, we moved back to the U.S. when I was 6 and I went back to English only schools, and lost all the French. This is one of the big regrets of my life, that I was unable to keep up the French in some kind of bilingual school (such schools were rare and too expensive for my parents at that time.)
posted by gudrun at 4:56 PM on April 14, 2015
Just to respond a bit to ninjablob's comment above, because it relates to my field of work, "knowing a lanugage like it's part of your being" isn't something that the scientific consensus considers negative, or even undesirable. Translation organizations have various names for this kind of innate capacity to mentally translate and switch between languages, but, to use the UN terminology, "perfect command" of a language is both desirable and much simpler when language instruction begins at a very early age.
There's a gulf of difference separating the development of language skills at age 5 than at age 10, and there's a monumental body of research dedicated to human development and language acquisition. There's little in the literature that suggests that harm comes from immersing a child in a new language when they're still in the so-called 'sensitive period', but plenty of research on the difficulty (and potential implications of) doing so after the critical phases of acquisition have passed. The difference between the two is the difference between learning an additional first language and (struggling to learn) a second language. Age 5 is by most measures squarely within the sensitive period. Were your daughter 10, and not 5, this would be a more difficult dilemma. Check out this journal if you want to explore a bit more.
In any case, any of the options you propose are equally valid. I wish you well in your new city!
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 5:10 PM on April 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
There's a gulf of difference separating the development of language skills at age 5 than at age 10, and there's a monumental body of research dedicated to human development and language acquisition. There's little in the literature that suggests that harm comes from immersing a child in a new language when they're still in the so-called 'sensitive period', but plenty of research on the difficulty (and potential implications of) doing so after the critical phases of acquisition have passed. The difference between the two is the difference between learning an additional first language and (struggling to learn) a second language. Age 5 is by most measures squarely within the sensitive period. Were your daughter 10, and not 5, this would be a more difficult dilemma. Check out this journal if you want to explore a bit more.
In any case, any of the options you propose are equally valid. I wish you well in your new city!
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 5:10 PM on April 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
I was the first of my generation on my father's side to show up to kindergarten speaking English. All of my cousins, along with my father, aunt, and uncle, did fine. The human mind is wired to learn languages, particularly at a young age.
The thing you have to remember is that your child doesn't really understand English all that well, either and is constantly absorbing new words every day. It will be the same experience for her in class-- she will just learn a lot more different words, given that she we be speaking French in class and English at home.
posted by deanc at 5:20 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
The thing you have to remember is that your child doesn't really understand English all that well, either and is constantly absorbing new words every day. It will be the same experience for her in class-- she will just learn a lot more different words, given that she we be speaking French in class and English at home.
posted by deanc at 5:20 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
You know your kid best. My friend found francophone school in Montreal very traumatic, as did her younger brother. However, I know she wouldn't trade her French skills and she's used them in her career. I didn't send my child to French immersion because the thought of French plus child's severe anxiety and speech delay led my child to burst into tears and I could tell it was just not for my child. But every child is different! I never thought I'd have a child who was terrified of French and, as I just said in another thread, it turns out that not doing French was a great decision. But you know your child - it sounds like she just wants to be doing what everyone else is doing and so it sounds like she'll be fine. Plus, unlike my friend in the 70s, there will be lots of French language learners.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 5:21 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 5:21 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm a native English speaker who got dropped into an French immersion program when I was 10 and it was fine. A couple other kids spoke English, and we spoke English to each other, but all our classes except for English were in French. I don't recall any trauma.
posted by rtha at 5:23 PM on April 14, 2015
posted by rtha at 5:23 PM on April 14, 2015
I did this at age 4 in Germany, as an American kid who'd never spoken German before. (My parents both spoke reasonably proficient German, but I don't believe any of the teachers spoke English. Maybe one?) I did fine, and by the end of two weeks I was back to my old talkative self.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 5:25 PM on April 14, 2015
posted by spaceman_spiff at 5:25 PM on April 14, 2015
Short answer: don't hesitate, send her to French school.
Long answer: I live in Montreal and have two kids in French school. My partner is francophone, I'm anglophone but the two of us "met" in English so we've always spoken English at home. The kids' daycare was officially bilingual but anglo in practice so my two were much more adept in English than French when they started school. Both of them had about 1/2 dozen non-French speakers in their kindergarten classes out of groups of 20. The kids don't care about language at that age, they just play. Within a few months all the kids were functional and within a year they were all more or less fluent. At this point my biggest problem is me not fitting in: my 1st and 3rd grader correct my French accent and other errors all the time, the ungrateful sprogs. More than once I've had conversations in French with their friends after school only to find out a few months later that the kids are from anglo families. Typical Montreal moment when the two anglophone parents realize 15 minutes into a conversation in French that they're both anglophones.
We are in the Maguerite Bourgeoys school board and the biggest issues for me have been on my side: when I volunteer in the school I must speak French at all times, all instructions for homework are in French of course, and all official communication with the school is in French (it really helps if you can speak some French to do parent/teacher night - in my experience many of the teachers don't speak any English). In addition the rules/politics are sometimes frustrating. My eldest was told that he couldn't read an English novel in the afterschool care (totally ridiculous...), there are NO English books in the school library, the "English classes" are a joke - a couple of hours a week with the poor teacher who wheels a cart from room to room teaching children with wildly different levels of English ability. But frankly that stuff is more of a hassle for the uniligual franco kids - my kids get plenty of English books, tv and conversation at home.
For me it was an easy, easy choice. I have friends who sent their daughter to a "bilingual" school in the English system. She's now finishing grade three and her spoken French is just terrible. Other friends sent their kids to regular English schools and they are learning French, but it's just not the same level. My kids switch effortlessly between the two languages, both speaking and reading. It has helped me too, BTW. When I first moved here from Vancouver I spoke next to no French, and I'm quite good now. Nothing like reviewing verb tenses with your 8yo to remember how to conjugate l'imparfait!
Also, and this gets a bit political, many of my anglo/allophone friends that grew up here had terrible experiences with the French school system and have opted to go for the English system for elementary instead. I think for many of them there is a strong cultural desire to do this, and to protect the anglo schools in a way, which, for the most part, have falling enrollment. Many of my friends who moved here from "away", or who are in mixed (anglo/franco) relationships have opted to send their kids to French school. We don't seem to have the same link to the English school boards. And of course, it's pretty amazing to see your child become fluent in another language so easily. The politics have changed and mellowed out since the 70s and despite the irritations I listed above the school is used to working with parents who don't have French as a first language.
French school, all the way.
posted by Cuke at 6:05 PM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Long answer: I live in Montreal and have two kids in French school. My partner is francophone, I'm anglophone but the two of us "met" in English so we've always spoken English at home. The kids' daycare was officially bilingual but anglo in practice so my two were much more adept in English than French when they started school. Both of them had about 1/2 dozen non-French speakers in their kindergarten classes out of groups of 20. The kids don't care about language at that age, they just play. Within a few months all the kids were functional and within a year they were all more or less fluent. At this point my biggest problem is me not fitting in: my 1st and 3rd grader correct my French accent and other errors all the time, the ungrateful sprogs. More than once I've had conversations in French with their friends after school only to find out a few months later that the kids are from anglo families. Typical Montreal moment when the two anglophone parents realize 15 minutes into a conversation in French that they're both anglophones.
We are in the Maguerite Bourgeoys school board and the biggest issues for me have been on my side: when I volunteer in the school I must speak French at all times, all instructions for homework are in French of course, and all official communication with the school is in French (it really helps if you can speak some French to do parent/teacher night - in my experience many of the teachers don't speak any English). In addition the rules/politics are sometimes frustrating. My eldest was told that he couldn't read an English novel in the afterschool care (totally ridiculous...), there are NO English books in the school library, the "English classes" are a joke - a couple of hours a week with the poor teacher who wheels a cart from room to room teaching children with wildly different levels of English ability. But frankly that stuff is more of a hassle for the uniligual franco kids - my kids get plenty of English books, tv and conversation at home.
For me it was an easy, easy choice. I have friends who sent their daughter to a "bilingual" school in the English system. She's now finishing grade three and her spoken French is just terrible. Other friends sent their kids to regular English schools and they are learning French, but it's just not the same level. My kids switch effortlessly between the two languages, both speaking and reading. It has helped me too, BTW. When I first moved here from Vancouver I spoke next to no French, and I'm quite good now. Nothing like reviewing verb tenses with your 8yo to remember how to conjugate l'imparfait!
Also, and this gets a bit political, many of my anglo/allophone friends that grew up here had terrible experiences with the French school system and have opted to go for the English system for elementary instead. I think for many of them there is a strong cultural desire to do this, and to protect the anglo schools in a way, which, for the most part, have falling enrollment. Many of my friends who moved here from "away", or who are in mixed (anglo/franco) relationships have opted to send their kids to French school. We don't seem to have the same link to the English school boards. And of course, it's pretty amazing to see your child become fluent in another language so easily. The politics have changed and mellowed out since the 70s and despite the irritations I listed above the school is used to working with parents who don't have French as a first language.
French school, all the way.
posted by Cuke at 6:05 PM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
I moved to the US when I was 8 and my middle brother was 5. Neither of us knew any English words beyond yes/no. We both became fluent within a year and a half. I remember placing into honors English as soon as it become available when I was 10. There was ESOL at our school and other kids who didn't speak English at first and we all learned pretty quickly.
On the other hand, both me and my brother were pretty miserable and called my grandmother every weekend begging her to come and take us back home for at least a year. I think I still had fantasies of going back till I was 12, although as far as my parents were concerned it was possible that we would be going back, so in a sense they encouraged it...
I don't think the language is what made us really miserable though. It was because we missed our friends, and the huge culture shock of being in this foreign country where they did things "stupidly." I'm not sure how different Montreal would be in other ways.
posted by uncreative at 7:12 PM on April 14, 2015
On the other hand, both me and my brother were pretty miserable and called my grandmother every weekend begging her to come and take us back home for at least a year. I think I still had fantasies of going back till I was 12, although as far as my parents were concerned it was possible that we would be going back, so in a sense they encouraged it...
I don't think the language is what made us really miserable though. It was because we missed our friends, and the huge culture shock of being in this foreign country where they did things "stupidly." I'm not sure how different Montreal would be in other ways.
posted by uncreative at 7:12 PM on April 14, 2015
I forgot to mention, my youngest brother was 1 when we moved to the US. My parents and I never spoke English at home, and our neighborhood was also full of immigrants who spoke our original language. When he got sent to kindergarden at age 4, my parents were sure he spoke no English. After his first day, they asked the teacher if everything went ok since he doesn't speak English, and the teacher said, that his English is great and he translated for all the other little kids who actually didn't speak English. So I agree that very likely for the youngest, it will be pretty effortless..
posted by uncreative at 7:19 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by uncreative at 7:19 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hi! I was in the same boat as your daughter, and things worked out just fine.
I was raised in small-town Quebec by two anglo parents (Mom had taken some French in high school, Dad knew just enough to get by at work). We moved there from English Canada when I was five, and I started Grade 1 with all of the French kids. The only French words I knew before starting school were "bonjour" and how to count to ten.
Three months in, I was chatting with everyone. Mom and Dad did their best to help me with homework (learning along with me in many cases), but full immersion and befriending the neighbourhood kids made a huge difference. Although we moved back to an English community five years later, I held on to my Quebec accent. I now work at a fully bilingual university, and believe that those years were incredibly helpful re: job success down the line. I don't believe being in that environment hindered my academic success at all (especially in the early grades).
Even if your daughter ends up switching to an English program later on, I would wholeheartedly recommend starting with the French school route.
posted by betafilter at 8:15 PM on April 14, 2015
I was raised in small-town Quebec by two anglo parents (Mom had taken some French in high school, Dad knew just enough to get by at work). We moved there from English Canada when I was five, and I started Grade 1 with all of the French kids. The only French words I knew before starting school were "bonjour" and how to count to ten.
Three months in, I was chatting with everyone. Mom and Dad did their best to help me with homework (learning along with me in many cases), but full immersion and befriending the neighbourhood kids made a huge difference. Although we moved back to an English community five years later, I held on to my Quebec accent. I now work at a fully bilingual university, and believe that those years were incredibly helpful re: job success down the line. I don't believe being in that environment hindered my academic success at all (especially in the early grades).
Even if your daughter ends up switching to an English program later on, I would wholeheartedly recommend starting with the French school route.
posted by betafilter at 8:15 PM on April 14, 2015
All of my partner's siblings grew up speaking Dutch at home while living in New Zealand, and they all started monolingual English school around age 5, without much preparation. All of them are extremely well-adjusted, high-achieving bilingual adults.
I think your daughter will be fine if you plop her into a French school, but I think less than the language, the environment you can create for her will determine how happy she is with the transition. If you can help her feel as socially integrated and supported as possible, she'll probably feel less resentment and recognize how useful French is for doing all the cool stuff she wants to do, like play with her friends, draw in art class, go to soccer games, whatever.
posted by wakannai at 9:10 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think your daughter will be fine if you plop her into a French school, but I think less than the language, the environment you can create for her will determine how happy she is with the transition. If you can help her feel as socially integrated and supported as possible, she'll probably feel less resentment and recognize how useful French is for doing all the cool stuff she wants to do, like play with her friends, draw in art class, go to soccer games, whatever.
posted by wakannai at 9:10 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
More anecdotal evidence: My dad actually insisted that I speak only Tamil up until kindergarten because he was sure I'd pick up English with no trouble in school, and sure enough, I did, to the point where I speak it perfectly today.
I'm going to second everyone who says raising bilingual children is not easy- it takes continuous effort, both on your part and the child's, and a commitment to actively speak both languages. I barely speak any Tamil now because my family switched to English once I started school.
posted by Tamanna at 9:16 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm going to second everyone who says raising bilingual children is not easy- it takes continuous effort, both on your part and the child's, and a commitment to actively speak both languages. I barely speak any Tamil now because my family switched to English once I started school.
posted by Tamanna at 9:16 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Send her to French school but be supportive. Language is a highly politicized thing in Quebec. It was news this week when someone saw a single line of English on an official vehicle – I am not kidding, it was reported in a mainstream newspaper. Some teachers can be very zealous about making sure kids don't speak any English to each other, at all, even outside the classroom. She may not meet any other English-speaking kids, but in case she does, make sure she understands any language rules have to be obeyed and that she should not speak English to anyone in the school building, but that speaking it at home is still OK.
posted by zadcat at 10:15 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by zadcat at 10:15 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think sending her to a french school is a great idea and probably the best way to get fluency in the language. I'm a speech therapist, but work with adults these days. When I was training, we were taught about the situation where kids get sent to a school speaking no English (very common here in the UK). We were taught about a 'silent period' of about 6 months where the child is developing understanding but can't yet speak the new language effectively. This is normal. It will be hard but it's just an expected part of learning a completely new language.
Good luck!
posted by kadia_a at 11:10 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Good luck!
posted by kadia_a at 11:10 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
From a slightly different perspective, I'm a governor at a school in the UK where we get a fair number of children starting school with no or very little English. They all seem to adjust and pick up English very quickly and the other children don't have a problem getting along with them or playing games together. Different schools can be different of course, but there's no reason why it has to be a problem.
posted by crocomancer at 1:52 AM on April 15, 2015
posted by crocomancer at 1:52 AM on April 15, 2015
Nthing everyone else,
moved to Mexico at 14 not knowing much more than "Hola", hated school for a few weeks but within six months I could communicate effectively and within a year I dreamed in Spanish. I learned a huge amount about how languages work by having two to compare. They say fish don't know what water is but I'll bet lungfish do because they have something to compare it to.
posted by Octaviuz at 4:39 AM on April 15, 2015
moved to Mexico at 14 not knowing much more than "Hola", hated school for a few weeks but within six months I could communicate effectively and within a year I dreamed in Spanish. I learned a huge amount about how languages work by having two to compare. They say fish don't know what water is but I'll bet lungfish do because they have something to compare it to.
posted by Octaviuz at 4:39 AM on April 15, 2015
Nthing the "definitely give it a shot". Grew up in Canada, but very much only spoke Polish at home. Apparently I had an english tutor at the school who I don't remember, but I very much remember both the language I exclusively spoke until I was 5, and the language I'm surrounded by now. It's all "instinctive" too - I certainly just switch into the appropriate language and really don't remember learning either.
My parents tried to get me into French Immersion, but the teachers thought I would have had trouble. Maybe, maybe not....but I wish they had pushed the issue. Either way, knowing two languages (even if not very well) makes picking up other languages WAY easier, so...yes, do it, even if the french itself doesn't matter to their adult life.
(For the anglo-school option, anecdata shows me they learn very little french. I have a few friends who grew up in Anglo Montreal, and they have the same cereal-box french all the Ontario people do.)
posted by aggyface at 5:28 AM on April 15, 2015
My parents tried to get me into French Immersion, but the teachers thought I would have had trouble. Maybe, maybe not....but I wish they had pushed the issue. Either way, knowing two languages (even if not very well) makes picking up other languages WAY easier, so...yes, do it, even if the french itself doesn't matter to their adult life.
(For the anglo-school option, anecdata shows me they learn very little french. I have a few friends who grew up in Anglo Montreal, and they have the same cereal-box french all the Ontario people do.)
posted by aggyface at 5:28 AM on April 15, 2015
We moved to Paris from NYC when I was four. We moved in June and during the summer I spent a lot of time in the local park playing with French kids. Neither of my parents spoke French. By the time I started school in the fall I was probably pretty fluent. I don't remember having any problems with language. I do remember having more socio-cultural problems because of the rigid discipline in those schools. My parents' childrearing style was pretty loose and I had also been to a very progressive nursery school in NYC. I know nothing about the Quebecois schools but you might want to check them out to see if the style of teaching and of classroom management appeal to you. Don't worry about her learning the French, she's already had some exposure to it and will get more over the summer, especially if she can play with French-speaking kids.
posted by mareli at 6:06 AM on April 15, 2015
posted by mareli at 6:06 AM on April 15, 2015
Just as a counterpoint, I was also a very shy child in preschool and kindergarten, to the point where I didn't want to talk in class at all most of the time, even for critical things like asking to go to the bathroom (I just waited all day!). I went to school in English, my native language, but I have a very strong feeling that switching to a new language would have been fairly traumatic for me, personally, even though it's not hard for children to learn languages in general. If you do try it, just try really hard to understand how it's going for her (even though I was a communicative kid at home at that age, I didn't know how to articulate what was going on at school, so don't assume she'll definitely tell you if something's wrong).
posted by three_red_balloons at 10:34 AM on April 15, 2015
posted by three_red_balloons at 10:34 AM on April 15, 2015
I am a teacher in Monteal. I just wanted to add that not all French schools are zealous about your child not speaking any English on school grounds, and not all English schools are sure to deliver "useless" French instruction. I would recommend actually checking out the schools in your neighbourhood and getting a better sense of what their instruction and policies look like before you make your choice.
posted by eisforcool at 1:42 PM on April 15, 2015
posted by eisforcool at 1:42 PM on April 15, 2015
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I learned enough German that year to get along with the other kids, as far as I recall. I don't believe I was traumatized or anything, unless you count the pair of lederhosen that I wore a few times.
My USian brother and his Canadian wife took their kids to Japan for a year at around the same age. As far as I know, none of them turned out to be axe murderers either.
posted by spacewrench at 2:46 PM on April 14, 2015