And I'm (Not) Proud To Be An American...
April 14, 2015 10:00 AM Subscribe
I have this weird hang up about my nationality that I feel is impeding my social progress in a new country. Any and all advice about how to get past this would be appreciated.
I apologize for this very odd-seeming question and I hope I don't offend anyone with what I am about to say, but (as I've alluded to in previous questions), I am originally from the US but am currently living abroad. The region of the world where I am now living has been extremely negatively impacted by US foreign policy for at least half a decade, if not more, and this has created a lot of well-deserved resentment for the US among many people there. I understand this 100%. In fact, I sympathize completely with such feelings of resentment toward US dominance (both economic and cultural) and being the very leftist person that I am, I agree with much, if not all of the anti-US sentiment I see here, both in my current country and the region as a whole.
I know that people always say that their anger is directed toward US government policy and not toward individual people from the US, but at the same time, there are a bunch of stereotypes about people from the US that exist here, and as is the case with most stereotypes, many of them are based somewhat in truth. Such stereotypes include extreme ignorance combined with an insufferable arrogance, blatant disrespect for the host country and its customs, isolating themselves into groups composed of only people from their country, and a general like "cultural imperialist"-type attitude about life in the host country (think "colonial veranda"). CLEARLY not everyone from the US living in another country is like this (I am most certainly not, and I know for a fact that there are others who aren't like this either), but again, as in most cases, stereotypes stick, even if they are hurtful and false in a lot of cases.
Anyway, I have no clue how I can bridge this. Like I said, I agree 100% with the anti-US sentiment, like I am not offended by it at all and you will never in a million years see me trying to defend the US's actions in this region (b/c they are truly indefensible, IMO), but at the same time, it does feel weird agreeing with all of the anti-US sentiment as someone from the US. I guess I'm afraid people will think I am being disingenuous and am "hiding" my true jingoistic "America F*ck Yeah" feelings or whatever (which is not the case at all). I put a TON of pressure on myself to never conform to any of the above stereotypes, because I don't want to be like "those Americans sitting on the colonial veranda." I can see that it is hurting me both psychologically and socially, as in I am terrified to talk to people. I'm terrified to talk to people who might have things in common with me (i.e. political views) because I'm scared that the instant they find out I am from the US, they will reject me. I reject friendship from anyone who appears a little bit *too* interested in the United States and its culture because I fear that their interests stems from an admiration for US values such as capitalism, neoliberalism, etc, and that they would be somehow "disappointed" with the fact that I don't agree at all with any of those such values and that I am not the picture of their "ideal American." I could go into the fact that, although I am interested in politics, especially the politics of this particular region, I am terrified to talk about it (outside of an academic setting) due to the extremely polarized political culture that is found here (as well as the fact that I, as an American, could appear arrogant, hence falling into one of the above stated stereotypes), but that's a conversation for another time and perhaps for another Ask Mefi question.
I realize that I am assuming a lot about people and that "to assume makes an ass out of u and me" but I would just rather not find myself in some type of uncomfortable situation with anyone wrt politics and other subjects like that.
BTW I haven't approached this topic in therapy yet because it sounds weird as hell to say that you are "ashamed" of your nationality (something you can't control, really), so.
I hope this question isn't too strange or too offensive and again, I apologize if it is. It wasn't my intention to offend anyone.
I apologize for this very odd-seeming question and I hope I don't offend anyone with what I am about to say, but (as I've alluded to in previous questions), I am originally from the US but am currently living abroad. The region of the world where I am now living has been extremely negatively impacted by US foreign policy for at least half a decade, if not more, and this has created a lot of well-deserved resentment for the US among many people there. I understand this 100%. In fact, I sympathize completely with such feelings of resentment toward US dominance (both economic and cultural) and being the very leftist person that I am, I agree with much, if not all of the anti-US sentiment I see here, both in my current country and the region as a whole.
I know that people always say that their anger is directed toward US government policy and not toward individual people from the US, but at the same time, there are a bunch of stereotypes about people from the US that exist here, and as is the case with most stereotypes, many of them are based somewhat in truth. Such stereotypes include extreme ignorance combined with an insufferable arrogance, blatant disrespect for the host country and its customs, isolating themselves into groups composed of only people from their country, and a general like "cultural imperialist"-type attitude about life in the host country (think "colonial veranda"). CLEARLY not everyone from the US living in another country is like this (I am most certainly not, and I know for a fact that there are others who aren't like this either), but again, as in most cases, stereotypes stick, even if they are hurtful and false in a lot of cases.
Anyway, I have no clue how I can bridge this. Like I said, I agree 100% with the anti-US sentiment, like I am not offended by it at all and you will never in a million years see me trying to defend the US's actions in this region (b/c they are truly indefensible, IMO), but at the same time, it does feel weird agreeing with all of the anti-US sentiment as someone from the US. I guess I'm afraid people will think I am being disingenuous and am "hiding" my true jingoistic "America F*ck Yeah" feelings or whatever (which is not the case at all). I put a TON of pressure on myself to never conform to any of the above stereotypes, because I don't want to be like "those Americans sitting on the colonial veranda." I can see that it is hurting me both psychologically and socially, as in I am terrified to talk to people. I'm terrified to talk to people who might have things in common with me (i.e. political views) because I'm scared that the instant they find out I am from the US, they will reject me. I reject friendship from anyone who appears a little bit *too* interested in the United States and its culture because I fear that their interests stems from an admiration for US values such as capitalism, neoliberalism, etc, and that they would be somehow "disappointed" with the fact that I don't agree at all with any of those such values and that I am not the picture of their "ideal American." I could go into the fact that, although I am interested in politics, especially the politics of this particular region, I am terrified to talk about it (outside of an academic setting) due to the extremely polarized political culture that is found here (as well as the fact that I, as an American, could appear arrogant, hence falling into one of the above stated stereotypes), but that's a conversation for another time and perhaps for another Ask Mefi question.
I realize that I am assuming a lot about people and that "to assume makes an ass out of u and me" but I would just rather not find myself in some type of uncomfortable situation with anyone wrt politics and other subjects like that.
BTW I haven't approached this topic in therapy yet because it sounds weird as hell to say that you are "ashamed" of your nationality (something you can't control, really), so.
I hope this question isn't too strange or too offensive and again, I apologize if it is. It wasn't my intention to offend anyone.
A Word of Encouragement
for Our Blushing Exiles.
(1898)
—————
. . . Well, what do you think of our country now? And what do you think of the figure she is cutting before the eyes of the world? For one, I am ashamed—(Extract from a long and heated letter from a Voluntary Exile, Member of the American Colony, Paris.)
AND so you are ashamed. I am trying to think out what it can have been that has produced this large attitude of mind and this fine flow of sarcasm. Apparently you are ashamed to look Europe in the face; ashamed of the American name; temporarily ashamed of your nationality. By the light of remarks made to me by an American here in Vienna, I judge that you are ashamed because:
1. We are meddling where we have no business and no right; meddling with the private family matters of a sister nation; intruding upon her sacred right to do as she pleases with her own, unquestioned by anybody.
2. We are doing this under a sham humanitarian pretext.
3. Doing it in order to filch Cuba, the formal and distinct disclaimer in the ultimatum being very, very thin humbug, and easily detectable as such by you and virtuous Europe.
4. And finally you are ashamed of all this because it is new, and base, and brutal, and dishonest; and because Europe, having had no previous experience of such things, is horrified by it and can never respect us nor associate with us any more.
Brutal, base, dishonest? We? Land thieves? Shedders of innocent blood? We? Traitors to our official word? We? Are we going to lose Europe’s respect because of this new and dreadful conduct? Russia’s, for instance? Is she lying stretched out on her back in Manchuria, with her head among her Siberian prisons and her feet in Port Arthur, trying to read over the fairy tales she told Lord Salisbury, and not able to do it for crying because we are maneuvering to treacherously smouch Cuba from feeble Spain, and because we are urgently shedding innocent Spanish blood?
Is it France’s respect that we are going to lose? Is our unchivalric conduct troubling a nation which exists to-day because a brave young girl saved it when its poltroons had lost it—a nation which deserted her as one man when her day of peril came? Is our treacherous assault upon a weak people distressing a nation which contributed Bartholomew’s Day to human history? Is our ruthless spirit offending the sensibilities of the nation which gave us the Reign of Terror to read about? Is our unmanly intrusion into the private affairs of a sister nation shocking the feelings of the people who sent Maximilian to Mexico? Are our shabby and pusillanimous ways outraging the fastidious people who have sent an innocent man (Dreyfus) to a living hell, taken to their embraces the slimy guilty one, and submitted to a thousand indignities Emile Zola—the manliest man in France?
Is it Spain’s respect that we are going to lose? Is she sitting sadly conning her great history and contrasting it with our meddling, cruel, perfidious one—our shameful history of foreign robberies, humanitarian shams, and annihilations of weak and unoffending nations? Is she remembering with pride how she sent Columbus home in chains; how she sent half of the harmless West Indians into slavery and the rest to the grave, leaving not one alive; bow she robbed and slaughtered the Inca’s gentle race, then beguiled the Inca into her power with fair promises and burned him at the stake; how she drenched the New World in blood, and earned and got the name of The Nation with the Bloody Footprint; how she drove all the Jews out of Spain in a day, allowing them to sell their property, but forbidding them to carr>^ any money out of the country; how she roasted heretics by the thousands and thousands in her public squares, generation after generation, her kings and her priests looking on as at a holiday show; how her Holy Inquisition imported hell into the earth; how she was the first to institute it and the last to give it up—and then only under compulsion; how, with a spirit unmodified by time, she still tortures her prisoners to-day; how, with her ancient passion for pain and blood unchanged, she still crowds the arena with ladies and gentlemen and priests to see with delight a bull harried and persecuted and a gored horse dragging his entrails on the ground; and how, with this incredible character surviving all attempts to civilize it, her Duke of Alva rises again in the person of General Weyler—to-day the most idolized personage in Spain—and we see a hundred thousand women and children shut up in pens and pitilessly starved to death?
Are we indeed going to lose Spain’s respect? Is there no way to avoid this calamity—or this compliment? Are we going to lose her respect because we have made a promise in our ultimatum which she thinks we shall break? And meantime is she trying to recall some promise of her own which she has kept?
Is the Professional Official Fibber of Europe really troubled with our morals? Dear Parisian friend, are you taking seriously the daily remark of the newspaper and the orator about “this noble nation with an illustrious history”? That is mere kindness, mere charity for a people in temporary hard luck. The newspaper and the orator do not mean it. They wink when they say it.
And so you are ashamed. Do not be ashamed; there is no occasion for it.
—Mark Twain
posted by quincunx at 10:08 AM on April 14, 2015 [32 favorites]
for Our Blushing Exiles.
(1898)
—————
. . . Well, what do you think of our country now? And what do you think of the figure she is cutting before the eyes of the world? For one, I am ashamed—(Extract from a long and heated letter from a Voluntary Exile, Member of the American Colony, Paris.)
AND so you are ashamed. I am trying to think out what it can have been that has produced this large attitude of mind and this fine flow of sarcasm. Apparently you are ashamed to look Europe in the face; ashamed of the American name; temporarily ashamed of your nationality. By the light of remarks made to me by an American here in Vienna, I judge that you are ashamed because:
1. We are meddling where we have no business and no right; meddling with the private family matters of a sister nation; intruding upon her sacred right to do as she pleases with her own, unquestioned by anybody.
2. We are doing this under a sham humanitarian pretext.
3. Doing it in order to filch Cuba, the formal and distinct disclaimer in the ultimatum being very, very thin humbug, and easily detectable as such by you and virtuous Europe.
4. And finally you are ashamed of all this because it is new, and base, and brutal, and dishonest; and because Europe, having had no previous experience of such things, is horrified by it and can never respect us nor associate with us any more.
Brutal, base, dishonest? We? Land thieves? Shedders of innocent blood? We? Traitors to our official word? We? Are we going to lose Europe’s respect because of this new and dreadful conduct? Russia’s, for instance? Is she lying stretched out on her back in Manchuria, with her head among her Siberian prisons and her feet in Port Arthur, trying to read over the fairy tales she told Lord Salisbury, and not able to do it for crying because we are maneuvering to treacherously smouch Cuba from feeble Spain, and because we are urgently shedding innocent Spanish blood?
Is it France’s respect that we are going to lose? Is our unchivalric conduct troubling a nation which exists to-day because a brave young girl saved it when its poltroons had lost it—a nation which deserted her as one man when her day of peril came? Is our treacherous assault upon a weak people distressing a nation which contributed Bartholomew’s Day to human history? Is our ruthless spirit offending the sensibilities of the nation which gave us the Reign of Terror to read about? Is our unmanly intrusion into the private affairs of a sister nation shocking the feelings of the people who sent Maximilian to Mexico? Are our shabby and pusillanimous ways outraging the fastidious people who have sent an innocent man (Dreyfus) to a living hell, taken to their embraces the slimy guilty one, and submitted to a thousand indignities Emile Zola—the manliest man in France?
Is it Spain’s respect that we are going to lose? Is she sitting sadly conning her great history and contrasting it with our meddling, cruel, perfidious one—our shameful history of foreign robberies, humanitarian shams, and annihilations of weak and unoffending nations? Is she remembering with pride how she sent Columbus home in chains; how she sent half of the harmless West Indians into slavery and the rest to the grave, leaving not one alive; bow she robbed and slaughtered the Inca’s gentle race, then beguiled the Inca into her power with fair promises and burned him at the stake; how she drenched the New World in blood, and earned and got the name of The Nation with the Bloody Footprint; how she drove all the Jews out of Spain in a day, allowing them to sell their property, but forbidding them to carr>^ any money out of the country; how she roasted heretics by the thousands and thousands in her public squares, generation after generation, her kings and her priests looking on as at a holiday show; how her Holy Inquisition imported hell into the earth; how she was the first to institute it and the last to give it up—and then only under compulsion; how, with a spirit unmodified by time, she still tortures her prisoners to-day; how, with her ancient passion for pain and blood unchanged, she still crowds the arena with ladies and gentlemen and priests to see with delight a bull harried and persecuted and a gored horse dragging his entrails on the ground; and how, with this incredible character surviving all attempts to civilize it, her Duke of Alva rises again in the person of General Weyler—to-day the most idolized personage in Spain—and we see a hundred thousand women and children shut up in pens and pitilessly starved to death?
Are we indeed going to lose Spain’s respect? Is there no way to avoid this calamity—or this compliment? Are we going to lose her respect because we have made a promise in our ultimatum which she thinks we shall break? And meantime is she trying to recall some promise of her own which she has kept?
Is the Professional Official Fibber of Europe really troubled with our morals? Dear Parisian friend, are you taking seriously the daily remark of the newspaper and the orator about “this noble nation with an illustrious history”? That is mere kindness, mere charity for a people in temporary hard luck. The newspaper and the orator do not mean it. They wink when they say it.
And so you are ashamed. Do not be ashamed; there is no occasion for it.
—Mark Twain
posted by quincunx at 10:08 AM on April 14, 2015 [32 favorites]
Stop thinking you can read people's minds or predict the future. Honestly, the specific subject that concerns you does not matter here. You need to engage with people honestly or you can't have a relationship. Please talk to your therapist about this.
posted by chaiminda at 10:20 AM on April 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by chaiminda at 10:20 AM on April 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
Be proud of what you can, be polite in acknowledging what you should. When I meet people from countries that have some shame in their pasts, which is every country, I appreciate people who are aware of problems, but have a genuine affection for their home. Everyone loves a listener; ask people to tell you more if they express concerns. Be open to learning what others dislike about the US, as well as what others wish the US could/should be.
posted by theora55 at 10:28 AM on April 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 10:28 AM on April 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
I say this with respect and understanding for the feelings you are having, but your assumption that you know what people around you will think and do strikes me as the most arrogant and colonialist thing in this question. Trust that the people around you are as nuanced and thoughtful as you are and be yourself.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:41 AM on April 14, 2015 [33 favorites]
posted by Rock Steady at 10:41 AM on April 14, 2015 [33 favorites]
BTW I haven't approached this topic in therapy yet because it sounds weird as hell to say that you are "ashamed" of your nationality (something you can't control, really), so.
Something that is affecting you this significantly needs to be broached with your therapist. It doesn't really matter what the topic is. The important part is the huge impact it is having on you.
Second, you say you are ashamed of being an American because of the way the US government treats other countries and because Americans generalize about other cultures but at the same time, you are stereotyping the non-American people around you - that they aren't intelligent enough or rational enough to be able to separate US policy from the actions and attitudes of an individual US citizen. Treat people around you as individuals. Expect that other people will do the same for you.
On preview, what Rock Steady said.
posted by Beti at 10:45 AM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Something that is affecting you this significantly needs to be broached with your therapist. It doesn't really matter what the topic is. The important part is the huge impact it is having on you.
Second, you say you are ashamed of being an American because of the way the US government treats other countries and because Americans generalize about other cultures but at the same time, you are stereotyping the non-American people around you - that they aren't intelligent enough or rational enough to be able to separate US policy from the actions and attitudes of an individual US citizen. Treat people around you as individuals. Expect that other people will do the same for you.
On preview, what Rock Steady said.
posted by Beti at 10:45 AM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I can't favorite @quincunx's comment enough.
Reasonable people know that a) you are not personally responsible for the USA's foreign policy b) all countries have a murky past (international law is very darwinian) and c) all countries' local media is full of nationalist propaganda to a greater or lesser extent.
I would just avoid discussing politics with people who you don't know well. That's usually a sensible precaution in any case :-)
posted by richb at 10:46 AM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Reasonable people know that a) you are not personally responsible for the USA's foreign policy b) all countries have a murky past (international law is very darwinian) and c) all countries' local media is full of nationalist propaganda to a greater or lesser extent.
I would just avoid discussing politics with people who you don't know well. That's usually a sensible precaution in any case :-)
posted by richb at 10:46 AM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Aren't you doing yourself what you are worried others will do to you?
I travel a fair amount internationally for work, and I work in a very international environment. One of the best things about being American means, quite frankly, you do not have to apologize for the actions of our government, past present or future.
Remember that the US is far more diverse than many other societies, and far more free. This will be both surprising, and sometimes enlightening, to those from other cultures and countries where this is not so (openly disagreeing with the opinions espoused by the leadership? how can this be!). And people's interest can at the same time be genuine! Baseball - Hollywood - Cheeseburgers - Disney! People from Maine are different from people from Texas who are different from people from California! It's a big country!
You will, of course, meet those who believe you to be either the ugly, backwards-baseball-cap-wearing American, or alternatively a stooge of whatever government they hate or policy they believe you endorse. There's not much you can do about that, and guess what: you can encounter that right here at home.
The best advice is to put your best foot forward, acknowledge and be open about your own preconceptions and possible prejudices while at the same time showing that you are your own person, and help lift those of others you meet.
posted by scolbath at 10:47 AM on April 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
I travel a fair amount internationally for work, and I work in a very international environment. One of the best things about being American means, quite frankly, you do not have to apologize for the actions of our government, past present or future.
Remember that the US is far more diverse than many other societies, and far more free. This will be both surprising, and sometimes enlightening, to those from other cultures and countries where this is not so (openly disagreeing with the opinions espoused by the leadership? how can this be!). And people's interest can at the same time be genuine! Baseball - Hollywood - Cheeseburgers - Disney! People from Maine are different from people from Texas who are different from people from California! It's a big country!
You will, of course, meet those who believe you to be either the ugly, backwards-baseball-cap-wearing American, or alternatively a stooge of whatever government they hate or policy they believe you endorse. There's not much you can do about that, and guess what: you can encounter that right here at home.
The best advice is to put your best foot forward, acknowledge and be open about your own preconceptions and possible prejudices while at the same time showing that you are your own person, and help lift those of others you meet.
posted by scolbath at 10:47 AM on April 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
Stereotypes are not just based on what see as much as what we don't see, meaning those stereotypes could be applied to just about any nationality if said nationality just so happened to also be a world super power. When I lived in Europe (Germany and Austria) for my graduate studies and post doc I wasn't surprised at anti-American sentiment (and I concur with you that it's sometimes difficult to talk about these global concerns without taking it personally) as much as I was with how Germans/Austrians view their own country, which often support similar or worse activities as America. For example, some Germans were quick to point out that Americans are very racist and treat blacks poorly but then fail to see that Germany has plenty of xenophobic tendencies and treats their Turkish citizens as unwelcome foreigners (to generalize). While I wouldn't go pointing out hypocrisy, bear in mind that you really don't have to agree or disagree--people just want you to listen and don't necessarily care about how your going to defend yourself against their opinions.
posted by waving at 10:48 AM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by waving at 10:48 AM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
An article made it to Metafilter in the past year. Some researchers at a university did a study and concluded that the US is no longer a republic, but instead is actually run by assorted groups of interests such as corporations.
Are there people that you care about who live in the United States? If so, then perhaps you can take the same approach as the people you are in conversation with. You care about the people in the US, but you do not care for the actions of the government.
posted by aniola at 10:54 AM on April 14, 2015
Are there people that you care about who live in the United States? If so, then perhaps you can take the same approach as the people you are in conversation with. You care about the people in the US, but you do not care for the actions of the government.
posted by aniola at 10:54 AM on April 14, 2015
You sound delightfully young. You've got to know you're not going to be able to fool anyone for long into believing you are NOT some American foreign-exchange student type of person, especially once you blind them with your perfectly white teeth as you open up your always-smiling mouth and out tumbles your extremely American-sounding accent. (Yes, even if you all happen to share the same native tongue -- you will still sound a bit off to them when you speak. Ask me how I know.) Just accept this, and be yourself. You can't control how people respond to you, and at some point you have got to learn to be comfortable in your own skin. Therapy is excellent for that (spoken like a real American.)
posted by hush at 10:55 AM on April 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by hush at 10:55 AM on April 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
I remember hearing a bit of the kind of thing you're talking about when I lived in the UK and travelled around Europe. (I'm a boring Canadian so I mostly got blank stares, but I did see what you mean.) You're neglecting the point, which is obvious to anyone you're speaking to, that you've already made a statement by choosing not to live in the US.
FWIW, the Americans I met abroad demonstrated their cosmopolitanism simply by not behaving like tourists, acclimating/engaging with local culture, showing knowledge of history, an interest in languages, etc. Things you are probably already doing. They tended to take gentle ribbing with humour (one occasionally responded with ironic "yee-haws"), and they acknowledged fair criticisms of US foreign policy, and were willing to engage in discussion about it. As far as I know, no one came away with the impression these expats were secretly hiding Big Macs and guns in their apartments.
I'm sure it's true that you do see people's backs stiffening a bit when they learn you're American, and that's no doubt uncomfortable, but you can loosen them up by just being yourself. You're where you are for a reason.
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:12 AM on April 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
FWIW, the Americans I met abroad demonstrated their cosmopolitanism simply by not behaving like tourists, acclimating/engaging with local culture, showing knowledge of history, an interest in languages, etc. Things you are probably already doing. They tended to take gentle ribbing with humour (one occasionally responded with ironic "yee-haws"), and they acknowledged fair criticisms of US foreign policy, and were willing to engage in discussion about it. As far as I know, no one came away with the impression these expats were secretly hiding Big Macs and guns in their apartments.
I'm sure it's true that you do see people's backs stiffening a bit when they learn you're American, and that's no doubt uncomfortable, but you can loosen them up by just being yourself. You're where you are for a reason.
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:12 AM on April 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
You seem to go by a lot of assumptions here. You'd probably be surprised that in many places, people don't have that much of an opinion about Americans. Where I come from, people are so busy being anti French (the past colonial master) that they actually hold Americans in high regard.
But even in the country in which you currently live, there are certainly more people than you care to acknowledge who judge others solely on their own merits. And this is my piece of advice to you: do away with the stereotypes and treat people as individuals.
posted by Kwadeng at 11:49 AM on April 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
But even in the country in which you currently live, there are certainly more people than you care to acknowledge who judge others solely on their own merits. And this is my piece of advice to you: do away with the stereotypes and treat people as individuals.
posted by Kwadeng at 11:49 AM on April 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm going to give it to you straight -- this is a false conversation that does not exist and is therefore not worth having. "Politics" is a narrative that people everywhere are given to keep them occupied and distracted. If you engage in this type of talk, you are pretty much automatically wasting your time and actively working against your own best interests.
There is no Right or Left. There are no policies or issues you or others can change. There is no such thing as "politics" to be discussed.
You have nothing to apologize for, and if people are angry with you, they are misguided into thinking that they or you have control or power to change a system that is entirely rigged to consume everyone and everything. All that is, any war or action or law, is 100% designed to concentrate wealth and resources. That's it.
Since "politics" is a useless discussion, I invite you instead to become an active listener seeking to understand without judgement when folks talk about the very real consequences of greed and inhumanity we are all experiencing.
Stop buying into the narrative that "politics" exists, and the problem communicating with others you are complaining of goes away. I can't exactly help you with the underlying reality I explained to you here. My hope is that when people everywhere "get" that goods, services, safety, and security does not have to come in a Win/Lose package, then we'll all have something productive to discuss with each other!
For the moment, you should understand this is all bullshit and enjoy getting to know people. You can listen and not be too judgmental. Understanding is a gift you can impart freely.
The only thing you need to show others actively and passively is that we are the same under the skin. (Unless you or them is a psychopath or sociopath, but ya know, in general, greed, violence and killing suck and there isn't much to disagree with there. Wash, rinse, repeat as necessary.)
posted by jbenben at 11:59 AM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
There is no Right or Left. There are no policies or issues you or others can change. There is no such thing as "politics" to be discussed.
You have nothing to apologize for, and if people are angry with you, they are misguided into thinking that they or you have control or power to change a system that is entirely rigged to consume everyone and everything. All that is, any war or action or law, is 100% designed to concentrate wealth and resources. That's it.
Since "politics" is a useless discussion, I invite you instead to become an active listener seeking to understand without judgement when folks talk about the very real consequences of greed and inhumanity we are all experiencing.
Stop buying into the narrative that "politics" exists, and the problem communicating with others you are complaining of goes away. I can't exactly help you with the underlying reality I explained to you here. My hope is that when people everywhere "get" that goods, services, safety, and security does not have to come in a Win/Lose package, then we'll all have something productive to discuss with each other!
For the moment, you should understand this is all bullshit and enjoy getting to know people. You can listen and not be too judgmental. Understanding is a gift you can impart freely.
The only thing you need to show others actively and passively is that we are the same under the skin. (Unless you or them is a psychopath or sociopath, but ya know, in general, greed, violence and killing suck and there isn't much to disagree with there. Wash, rinse, repeat as necessary.)
posted by jbenben at 11:59 AM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is a hang-up in your mind. I do not believe this is as severe as you are suggesting - you are projecting it on to your experiences.
People judge people for the themselves - not for the race or nationality. Or, are you trying to befriend people who are racist? If people are not willing to judge you for yourself, why would you want to be their friend anyway.
posted by Flood at 12:02 PM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
People judge people for the themselves - not for the race or nationality. Or, are you trying to befriend people who are racist? If people are not willing to judge you for yourself, why would you want to be their friend anyway.
posted by Flood at 12:02 PM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Please don't argue with other commenters, and please don't return to the thread repeatedly to restate your answer. Thanks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:11 PM on April 14, 2015
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:11 PM on April 14, 2015
Here is something I have learned from living abroad for the last 3.5 years: your opinions about America and being American shift a lot, and what you think now is not necessarily what you will think in a year, or two years, or more.
For instance, for the first two years that I was abroad, I was really pissed off at the U.S. and the U.S. government, because I truly started to see some things from a non-American perspective and it made me feel lied to and betrayed even though that probably sounds a bit melodramatic. American politicians had been telling me for as long as I could remember that we were "the greatest country on earth" and even though I had studied a lot of history and had been reading European newspapers for a while, I'd thought that maybe things were pretty good in America even if they're weren't "the best." And then I got acquainted with European healthcare systems and European public transportation and the fact that there wasn't a mass shooting in my European country every six months and women's bodily rights weren't being steadily eroded, and I got SO MAD. And I stayed mad for about two years, which meant that I was basically willing to agree with anyone who wanted to bash America about anything.
But now that I've been away longer, my feelings have changed bit. I know America has its problems, and that the American government has done a lot of awful things, but I can think of very few places that don't have a lot of problems and there are very few governments that haven't done awful things. That doesn't excuse the U.S. government, it just puts it in perspective. I don't think I will ever feel terribly patriotic, but I do know that I love specific people and specific places that are American and I always will. I have also realized that there are some things that America does well, maybe better than other places, along with a lot of things that America does poorly, even though those two categories don't necessarily match up neatly with the things American politicians tell you.
The evolution of your feelings will probably be different than mine, because you're a different person, but I tell you how it went for me just in case that helps you put things in perspective a bit.
In practical terms, I think you should do the following: start talking to people in the country you're in. You will probably make some mistakes, but it's better to make some mistakes and get to know some local people than to hold yourself back the whole time out of fear and anxiety. If they want to talk to you about America and you feel like talking about it with them, then talk to them. In my experience, people often have very strong opinions about the U.S. and they are often quite ready to share them with you, but they are usually much less willing to listen to any criticism of their home country. People often like educating you about their country though, so if you're willing to listen and ask questions without injecting too much of your own opinion into things, then you can learn quite a lot. If you want to avoid the American expat community, then avoid them, but don't avoid making friends with other foreigners, because sometimes it is such a goddamn relief to talk to someone else who is living as a foreigner in the same foreign land. You can't change anyone's opinion about America or Americans really, so don't take that responsibility onto yourself. Just be who you authentically are, and people will decide if they like you or they don't. Living in a foreign country can be really tiring, so I think you have to take care of yourself a bit more aggressively than you might at home, which includes figuring out polite ways to duck out of conversations you don't want to be in (sometimes you just don't feel like being quizzed about American politics and why things are the way they are, and that's ok).
posted by colfax at 12:25 PM on April 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
For instance, for the first two years that I was abroad, I was really pissed off at the U.S. and the U.S. government, because I truly started to see some things from a non-American perspective and it made me feel lied to and betrayed even though that probably sounds a bit melodramatic. American politicians had been telling me for as long as I could remember that we were "the greatest country on earth" and even though I had studied a lot of history and had been reading European newspapers for a while, I'd thought that maybe things were pretty good in America even if they're weren't "the best." And then I got acquainted with European healthcare systems and European public transportation and the fact that there wasn't a mass shooting in my European country every six months and women's bodily rights weren't being steadily eroded, and I got SO MAD. And I stayed mad for about two years, which meant that I was basically willing to agree with anyone who wanted to bash America about anything.
But now that I've been away longer, my feelings have changed bit. I know America has its problems, and that the American government has done a lot of awful things, but I can think of very few places that don't have a lot of problems and there are very few governments that haven't done awful things. That doesn't excuse the U.S. government, it just puts it in perspective. I don't think I will ever feel terribly patriotic, but I do know that I love specific people and specific places that are American and I always will. I have also realized that there are some things that America does well, maybe better than other places, along with a lot of things that America does poorly, even though those two categories don't necessarily match up neatly with the things American politicians tell you.
The evolution of your feelings will probably be different than mine, because you're a different person, but I tell you how it went for me just in case that helps you put things in perspective a bit.
In practical terms, I think you should do the following: start talking to people in the country you're in. You will probably make some mistakes, but it's better to make some mistakes and get to know some local people than to hold yourself back the whole time out of fear and anxiety. If they want to talk to you about America and you feel like talking about it with them, then talk to them. In my experience, people often have very strong opinions about the U.S. and they are often quite ready to share them with you, but they are usually much less willing to listen to any criticism of their home country. People often like educating you about their country though, so if you're willing to listen and ask questions without injecting too much of your own opinion into things, then you can learn quite a lot. If you want to avoid the American expat community, then avoid them, but don't avoid making friends with other foreigners, because sometimes it is such a goddamn relief to talk to someone else who is living as a foreigner in the same foreign land. You can't change anyone's opinion about America or Americans really, so don't take that responsibility onto yourself. Just be who you authentically are, and people will decide if they like you or they don't. Living in a foreign country can be really tiring, so I think you have to take care of yourself a bit more aggressively than you might at home, which includes figuring out polite ways to duck out of conversations you don't want to be in (sometimes you just don't feel like being quizzed about American politics and why things are the way they are, and that's ok).
posted by colfax at 12:25 PM on April 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: Okay, I've seen that I've offeded or made angry some people by this question and again, I apologize profusely because that was not my intention. Anyway, thanks for all of your replies and I know that not as many people care that I'm American as I probably think that they do (Im currently working in therapy on this problem that I have where I simultaneously believe that no one cares about me yet at the same time they are judging me very harshly, not just about this but in general). To give some context to the anti-US sentiment in this region, let's just say that in recent history the U.S. has sponsored or has supported very brutal and bloody dictatorships responsible for the deaths of thousands of people (so really, these people have a damn good reason to look upon the U.S. with suspicion). I know that I need to just ignore people who base their judgement on me on my nationality (either positively or negatively) and find people who will look at me as a person as opposed to something dumb like a nationality. Also I am aware that people aren't thinking about this terrible history with the U.S. every day and that probably some of them do not care, though I will say it strikes me as odd that one would not care about something like that. Anyway I'll shut up for now and I'll say that I am open to learning and listening but if the person starts talking about how things were so much better during the dictatorship times (bc there are quite a few people who look upon this era with positive nostalgia), I do think I have a right to not listen to them and to dismiss their opinions as horrible ones. Again I apologize to everyone who was offended or made angry by my question.
posted by lana0112 at 1:57 PM on April 14, 2015
posted by lana0112 at 1:57 PM on April 14, 2015
If I were to travel internationally, I plan to just say "I'm from California."
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 6:56 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 6:56 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd like to add: be proud that you are representing the US, the part that does care about the rest of the world, and isn't afraid to engage with it! That, alone, speaks volumes about the kinds of America that exist. As others have said, it's a big, diverse country, so much so that you can present the best of it to them, if you wish. Take your picks and run with them; as an example, I like Yosemite, so I could go on for days about how amazing it is that there is a national parks system.
You are the change you wish to see!
posted by the letter at 7:14 PM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
You are the change you wish to see!
posted by the letter at 7:14 PM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
and being the very leftist person that I am
This here might be your real problem, because instead of observing your surroundings with an open mind, you apply your moral standards and therefore set yourself up for disappointment when people aren't liberal or political enough or don't espouse the causes that are dear to you. When someone says that things were so much better during the dictatorship times, it is their personal experience and it is a perfectly valid opinion. By not being able to hear them, which is vastly different from agreeing with them, you are being the bigot that you denounce.
Your post conveys a youth feel to so I'll say this kindly: when (your flavour of) politics are the sole prism through which you view the world, they call it prejudice. This may be something for you to ponder.
posted by Kwadeng at 10:05 PM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
This here might be your real problem, because instead of observing your surroundings with an open mind, you apply your moral standards and therefore set yourself up for disappointment when people aren't liberal or political enough or don't espouse the causes that are dear to you. When someone says that things were so much better during the dictatorship times, it is their personal experience and it is a perfectly valid opinion. By not being able to hear them, which is vastly different from agreeing with them, you are being the bigot that you denounce.
Your post conveys a youth feel to so I'll say this kindly: when (your flavour of) politics are the sole prism through which you view the world, they call it prejudice. This may be something for you to ponder.
posted by Kwadeng at 10:05 PM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
No one in these places expects you to, or would admire you for, dissociating yourself from your American identity, and would regard an excess affinity for their identity as laughably false. The atomization of cultural, national, ethnic and religious identity that liberates (or afflicts, as you please) Americans is not found in most of the rest of the world. They want you to be courteous and curious, but they expect you to be a proud American.
And be 100% certain that even the staunchest critics of American politicians at least begrudgingly respect American power and wealth, and many outright admire it, and anyone you're likely to meet has a dozen friends and family members who immigrated to America and report back on a prosperity and security that in their homeland is enjoyed only by the most pedigreed of aristocrats and the most exceptional of self-made people.
posted by MattD at 12:21 AM on April 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
And be 100% certain that even the staunchest critics of American politicians at least begrudgingly respect American power and wealth, and many outright admire it, and anyone you're likely to meet has a dozen friends and family members who immigrated to America and report back on a prosperity and security that in their homeland is enjoyed only by the most pedigreed of aristocrats and the most exceptional of self-made people.
posted by MattD at 12:21 AM on April 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
If you speak the local language with an accent or sound like English is your first language, the locals can probably guess that you're American. While the locals may object to American foreign policy, they are unlikely to despise you personally unless you represent yourself as a strong supporter of such foreign policy (and it sure sounds like you don't).
Unless there's an extreme anti-American sentiment that actually threatens your life, saying something along the lines of "I'm American, but believe me, I don't like what the government has done / is doing" should be fine.
posted by theorique at 5:48 AM on April 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Unless there's an extreme anti-American sentiment that actually threatens your life, saying something along the lines of "I'm American, but believe me, I don't like what the government has done / is doing" should be fine.
posted by theorique at 5:48 AM on April 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've lived in Europe since 1997 now, and found myself nodding along to ashworth's comment. I probably would have said something more idealistic ten years ago (just because I was younger and more idealist then, not much because of anything external), but it just so happens, I'm in therapy, with a French therapist, and my therapist agrees that finding strategies to work around and with the dualistic view (you are both individual and representative) are very important, given that the stereotypes held here are very at odds with who I am as an individual.
For instance. I grew up in Oregon, am pretty leftist, but that's no issue – what has proven to be the biggest issue for me is that the "representative" part comes from real-life experiences of others with Americans. Like it or not, the vast majority of Americans who come to live in France (my particular case, thus this example) are financially well-off and privileged. They don't have to worry about much, and just sort of cruise through life here. Yes. I'm generalizing. But fellow Americans also know the stereotype: members of the upper-middle and upper classes who travel to and live in Europe. I am from firmly working class. Builders, farmers. I caught crawdads with my bare hands, mooed at the cows on friends' ranches, changed the oil and spark plugs on my '72 Chevy Nova SS, and learned to fire shotguns as a kid. That sort of thing. (And I'm a woman. If there's one projection I get a real hoot out of, it's when people first assume I'm a prim and proper Parisienne due to my Franco-French accent and clothes.) Even in the States I was an odder-one-out; my brains bootstrapped me into a knowledge-worker and now management middle class. I came to Lyon as an exchange student with 25 other students, all of them from upper-class American families who paid their ways. I was the only one with maxed-out work-study, plus a scholarship, plus financial aid, and zero parental assistance. The ONLY ONE. It wasn't just my year. My application to go to France was nearly rejected because of my background (I was told this in so many words). It was only because I was top of my class and had scholarship financing that they squeaked me through, with reserves: "we've never sent someone like you before." All this to say, the stereotypes do have a basis because systemic reinforcement of privilege etc. etc.
Psychological projection as a negative is very strong when there's any sort of characteristic about you that is generally viewed as societally acceptable to scapegoat. Your nationality and stereotypes surrounding it can be that sort of characteristic. It also boils down to accepting that you won't be accepted. And that means not being accepted by a lot more people than others who haven't experienced this may realize. It's different from sexism (which hey we get to deal with too in different cultures, woohoo *sigh*), racism, homophobia, etc. but there are similar systemic mechanisms. It's enforced more through micro-aggressions and silently condoned bullying/harassment than anything else. Being aware of that is a big step in the right direction. It makes it less about you, and less about judging others, and more about seeing that systemic abuses suck, and affect all of us to greater and lesser degrees.
To boil it down to things you might be able to adopt as well, I don't tell people where I'm from any more, not even when I'm directly asked, for at least 2-3 months. By that time the "individual" aspect has become more firmly anchored and I've had the chance to see how they treat people from other countries. There are people with whom I accentuate my Norwegian ancestry more than my US birth roots. There are others I'm able to joke about being from Springfield of The Simpsons' fame. There are very, very few indeed, with whom I talk about my origins without a second thought. I learned the hard, painful way not to do that. (Oh the stories. Omigod the stories. Sigh.)
Do feel free to approach this with your therapist, and use as many factual examples as you can. FWIW, my own therapist went through her own growth and awareness through analysing my experiences. At first she would say, "to find friends, why don't you go out to expat meetups?" This was on the French Riviera. It was suggesting a hippy lit major from the Oregon boondocks (me) go out for far-right lobby cocktails in a big, conservative city. (Expat groups on the Riviera are famously conservative, rich, and donate to the ickier types of lobbies.) She didn't realize a lot of her own assumptions until we worked through the issues. So, just be aware it ain't easy, it's okay that it's not easy (that generally means you have a conscience), and that we're all muddling through life, icky lobbyists included, but that doesn't mean you have to force yourself into milieux or conversations you don't want to be part of.
posted by fraula at 6:54 AM on April 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
For instance. I grew up in Oregon, am pretty leftist, but that's no issue – what has proven to be the biggest issue for me is that the "representative" part comes from real-life experiences of others with Americans. Like it or not, the vast majority of Americans who come to live in France (my particular case, thus this example) are financially well-off and privileged. They don't have to worry about much, and just sort of cruise through life here. Yes. I'm generalizing. But fellow Americans also know the stereotype: members of the upper-middle and upper classes who travel to and live in Europe. I am from firmly working class. Builders, farmers. I caught crawdads with my bare hands, mooed at the cows on friends' ranches, changed the oil and spark plugs on my '72 Chevy Nova SS, and learned to fire shotguns as a kid. That sort of thing. (And I'm a woman. If there's one projection I get a real hoot out of, it's when people first assume I'm a prim and proper Parisienne due to my Franco-French accent and clothes.) Even in the States I was an odder-one-out; my brains bootstrapped me into a knowledge-worker and now management middle class. I came to Lyon as an exchange student with 25 other students, all of them from upper-class American families who paid their ways. I was the only one with maxed-out work-study, plus a scholarship, plus financial aid, and zero parental assistance. The ONLY ONE. It wasn't just my year. My application to go to France was nearly rejected because of my background (I was told this in so many words). It was only because I was top of my class and had scholarship financing that they squeaked me through, with reserves: "we've never sent someone like you before." All this to say, the stereotypes do have a basis because systemic reinforcement of privilege etc. etc.
Psychological projection as a negative is very strong when there's any sort of characteristic about you that is generally viewed as societally acceptable to scapegoat. Your nationality and stereotypes surrounding it can be that sort of characteristic. It also boils down to accepting that you won't be accepted. And that means not being accepted by a lot more people than others who haven't experienced this may realize. It's different from sexism (which hey we get to deal with too in different cultures, woohoo *sigh*), racism, homophobia, etc. but there are similar systemic mechanisms. It's enforced more through micro-aggressions and silently condoned bullying/harassment than anything else. Being aware of that is a big step in the right direction. It makes it less about you, and less about judging others, and more about seeing that systemic abuses suck, and affect all of us to greater and lesser degrees.
To boil it down to things you might be able to adopt as well, I don't tell people where I'm from any more, not even when I'm directly asked, for at least 2-3 months. By that time the "individual" aspect has become more firmly anchored and I've had the chance to see how they treat people from other countries. There are people with whom I accentuate my Norwegian ancestry more than my US birth roots. There are others I'm able to joke about being from Springfield of The Simpsons' fame. There are very, very few indeed, with whom I talk about my origins without a second thought. I learned the hard, painful way not to do that. (Oh the stories. Omigod the stories. Sigh.)
Do feel free to approach this with your therapist, and use as many factual examples as you can. FWIW, my own therapist went through her own growth and awareness through analysing my experiences. At first she would say, "to find friends, why don't you go out to expat meetups?" This was on the French Riviera. It was suggesting a hippy lit major from the Oregon boondocks (me) go out for far-right lobby cocktails in a big, conservative city. (Expat groups on the Riviera are famously conservative, rich, and donate to the ickier types of lobbies.) She didn't realize a lot of her own assumptions until we worked through the issues. So, just be aware it ain't easy, it's okay that it's not easy (that generally means you have a conscience), and that we're all muddling through life, icky lobbyists included, but that doesn't mean you have to force yourself into milieux or conversations you don't want to be part of.
posted by fraula at 6:54 AM on April 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
Okay, I've seen that I've offeded or made angry some people by this question and again, I apologize profusely because that was not my intention.
Just as a more general counterpoint: I think you've gotten some critical feedback about your thinking, but I don't get the sense that you've made people in this thread feel offended or angry at all. I think it's great that you're working on your perception that others are judging you harshly in therapy and would echo the recommendation that you fold this topic into the work you're already doing there. Just as an outside observer, it seems like it's pretty connected.
posted by deludingmyself at 7:18 AM on April 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
Just as a more general counterpoint: I think you've gotten some critical feedback about your thinking, but I don't get the sense that you've made people in this thread feel offended or angry at all. I think it's great that you're working on your perception that others are judging you harshly in therapy and would echo the recommendation that you fold this topic into the work you're already doing there. Just as an outside observer, it seems like it's pretty connected.
posted by deludingmyself at 7:18 AM on April 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
As someone who immigrated to the U.S., I'd just like to note how US-centric your own view is. Even if it IS anti-US, it's still very a mindset that sort of assumes "America is the center of everything."
I'm not saying you ACTUALLY think this, but this type of thinking implies "Anybody who got screwed by their own government, or their own people, screw them, right?"
You don't seem to be mindful of the crimes perpetrated by humanity on their own, on each other, both throughout history and today. Awful things that surprisingly have nothing to do with the U.S.
I would advise you to 1) read history and 2) talk to people around you and see what actually affects their lives today.
posted by neeta at 9:28 AM on April 15, 2015
I'm not saying you ACTUALLY think this, but this type of thinking implies "Anybody who got screwed by their own government, or their own people, screw them, right?"
You don't seem to be mindful of the crimes perpetrated by humanity on their own, on each other, both throughout history and today. Awful things that surprisingly have nothing to do with the U.S.
I would advise you to 1) read history and 2) talk to people around you and see what actually affects their lives today.
posted by neeta at 9:28 AM on April 15, 2015
deludingmyself: "I think it's great that you're working on your perception that others are judging you harshly in therapy and would echo the recommendation that you fold this topic into the work you're already doing there. Just as an outside observer, it seems like it's pretty connected."
I agree with this comment completely. I actually think the politics stuff is kind of a red herring - it's just a symptom of a larger issue around how you think others perceive and judge you. Once you make progress on that core issue, I think your difficulties with discussing politics will solve themselves, so to speak.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:33 AM on April 15, 2015
I agree with this comment completely. I actually think the politics stuff is kind of a red herring - it's just a symptom of a larger issue around how you think others perceive and judge you. Once you make progress on that core issue, I think your difficulties with discussing politics will solve themselves, so to speak.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:33 AM on April 15, 2015
Response by poster: Thanks again for your comments and yes, I agree that the politics thing is somewhat of a red herring (though at the same time I refuse to "respect" and "support" the opinions of pro-dictatorship era people, as those are people I have literally zero interest in being friends with or associating with - really would you befriend and "respect" the opinions of a neo-nazi or an active member of a racist hate group or something like that?), and for that i would like it that people try not to make snarky and condescending comments about my political views and or my youth (im getting a whole lot of "if you're 20 and left wing you have a heart and if you're 30 and right wing you have a brain" or however that expression goes from a few of these comments to be quite honest), because those are important to me and they will not be changing drastically anytime soon. Anyway, yeah this is all just a reflection of my general insecurity and I will bring it up in therapy in that context since I do not feel comfortable bringing up my political views with people in real life who I don't know well and again, the politics thing is more of a symptom than a cause.
posted by lana0112 at 12:37 PM on April 15, 2015
posted by lana0112 at 12:37 PM on April 15, 2015
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posted by Faint of Butt at 10:08 AM on April 14, 2015 [26 favorites]