Witty engineers with an interest in climate science?
March 30, 2015 5:28 PM Subscribe
Seeking learned suggestions/contributions for slightly messed up anti-climate-trolling mother/daughter project.
A friend of mine is becoming quite exasperated by her mother, who frequently emails my friend right-wing, reactionary and often climate skeptic material (said friend works in climate policy...).
She decided to respond to her mother, who is an engineer, by questioning some basic tenets of engineering in a manner that illustrates the ridiculousness of climate skeptic arguments.
Can anyone with expertise in both engineering and climate science/scepticism) come up with some remarks/questions that might actually prove informative to her mother?
Bonus points for being light-hearted and amusing, yet pointed. [Their relationship is complicated, obviously, but not mean-spirited...]
And yes, I realise this is probably not a good way to persuade anyone.
A friend of mine is becoming quite exasperated by her mother, who frequently emails my friend right-wing, reactionary and often climate skeptic material (said friend works in climate policy...).
She decided to respond to her mother, who is an engineer, by questioning some basic tenets of engineering in a manner that illustrates the ridiculousness of climate skeptic arguments.
Can anyone with expertise in both engineering and climate science/scepticism) come up with some remarks/questions that might actually prove informative to her mother?
Bonus points for being light-hearted and amusing, yet pointed. [Their relationship is complicated, obviously, but not mean-spirited...]
And yes, I realise this is probably not a good way to persuade anyone.
Your friend should just tell her mother that climate science is far too complicated for her mother to understand. After all, if her mother was smart, her mother would have become a scientist instead of an engineer.
Maybe have your friend tell her mother that Fox News isn't the best place to get science information from.
It's kind of pointless for your friend to even engage her mother about this. Her mother's issue isn't scientific, it's political. I bet her mother hates Al Gore. I know a guy who flew Landsat 4 and is the biggest climate change denier there is. I bet he has a lot in common with her mother.
posted by Rob Rockets at 6:52 PM on March 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
Maybe have your friend tell her mother that Fox News isn't the best place to get science information from.
It's kind of pointless for your friend to even engage her mother about this. Her mother's issue isn't scientific, it's political. I bet her mother hates Al Gore. I know a guy who flew Landsat 4 and is the biggest climate change denier there is. I bet he has a lot in common with her mother.
posted by Rob Rockets at 6:52 PM on March 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
What you're asking for directly isn't something you're going to find. Engineering by its nature is intensely practical, and it is constantly subject to real world test. The foundation on which engineering is built is very solid, which we know because engineers produce results which work and are valuable. (Not every time, of course, but far more often than not.)
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 7:44 PM on March 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 7:44 PM on March 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Send her failed engineering projects to show that engineering is not infallible, and that good science learns from it's mistakes. YouTube search for bridge and dam collapses. Especially the ones that collapsed shortly after opening.
posted by DoubleLune at 5:32 AM on March 31, 2015
posted by DoubleLune at 5:32 AM on March 31, 2015
Obviously only an incompetent engineer has to design with a factor of safety. Ask if she adds a safety factor in her designs.
posted by JJ86 at 7:34 AM on March 31, 2015
posted by JJ86 at 7:34 AM on March 31, 2015
I dunno about sending the mother examples of 'failed engineering'. I use quotes because I've been in engineering courses where failure is used as a primary example of improving the understanding of the topic at hand. The Tacoma Narrows bridge, for example, was instrumental in showing that you shouldn't neglect this or that variable in your design lest you end up with a wing rather than a bridge. I guess I'm saying that the mother could quickly turn that effort around by saying something akin to "yea and look how much we learned from that!" so don't give her the chance.
I'm more likely to suggest the whole send her perpetual motion, cosmic healing rays, and various infrared/copper healing devices (think SkyMall-esque), or quack herbs/pharmaceuticals that are backed by experts in the field, preferably M.D.s or PhDs in Engineering or Physics. By doing so you're much better prepared to handle her reply of "but they are quacks and obviously in it for the money!" with something akin to "yep, let's trace the money on climate denial actually while we're at it".
Good luck, remember engineer != logical when discussing politics. Quite the opposite can be true actually. Source: Mechanical Engineering degree with a leftward leaning.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:36 AM on March 31, 2015
I'm more likely to suggest the whole send her perpetual motion, cosmic healing rays, and various infrared/copper healing devices (think SkyMall-esque), or quack herbs/pharmaceuticals that are backed by experts in the field, preferably M.D.s or PhDs in Engineering or Physics. By doing so you're much better prepared to handle her reply of "but they are quacks and obviously in it for the money!" with something akin to "yep, let's trace the money on climate denial actually while we're at it".
Good luck, remember engineer != logical when discussing politics. Quite the opposite can be true actually. Source: Mechanical Engineering degree with a leftward leaning.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:36 AM on March 31, 2015
JJ86: Do you have an example of how to work in a discussion of factor of safety in this case? I could see it being useful if the mother already had some leanings towards environmental preservation and, as such, the dialogue could be based on 'how much care/concern/protection is enough' but I'd be afraid that's a weak or fraught starting position to work from.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:42 AM on March 31, 2015
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:42 AM on March 31, 2015
From my understanding the conservative views and arguments on global warming isn't that it doesn't exist but that it doesn't exist because of man made causes.To me, the issues of global warming's causes are a moot point when it is well documented as happening and its effects are having an impact on us. If a problem exists and you refuse to acknowledge it then it is like designing an engineered solution without a factor of safety. If you know all of the forces involved in a problem and the strength of your materials then there should be no need for a safety factor. It implies that you are unsure and possibly incompetent. To give an example, assuming the mother is not also a 9/11 conspiracy believer, the twin towers were designed horribly because a jet crash wasn't factored into the design and that is why they fell.
posted by JJ86 at 7:59 AM on March 31, 2015
posted by JJ86 at 7:59 AM on March 31, 2015
the mother could quickly turn that effort around by saying something akin to "yea and look how much we learned from that!"
Exactly! It's failure that leads to learning. You'd be pointing out how at one time, engineering didn't take environmental factors into account, or didn't take an increase in rainfall into account, or whatever. And the engineers learned from it. Climate science is newer, and is certainly prone to error, but it keeps improving as they learn and input more data into models.
It can easily tie into the factor of safety conversation. Engineers design for a factor of safety because they don't know the future, but they do know certain types and amounts of stresses what they're designing might be subject to. Climate science is asked to be extremely precise, and told it's failed when it isn't. If we had the kind of factor of safety that engineering has, meteorologists would be saying "we predict rain in the next month" rather than giving predictions with fair accuracy down to the hour and minute.
posted by DoubleLune at 8:45 AM on March 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Exactly! It's failure that leads to learning. You'd be pointing out how at one time, engineering didn't take environmental factors into account, or didn't take an increase in rainfall into account, or whatever. And the engineers learned from it. Climate science is newer, and is certainly prone to error, but it keeps improving as they learn and input more data into models.
It can easily tie into the factor of safety conversation. Engineers design for a factor of safety because they don't know the future, but they do know certain types and amounts of stresses what they're designing might be subject to. Climate science is asked to be extremely precise, and told it's failed when it isn't. If we had the kind of factor of safety that engineering has, meteorologists would be saying "we predict rain in the next month" rather than giving predictions with fair accuracy down to the hour and minute.
posted by DoubleLune at 8:45 AM on March 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think a really good example of engineers and politicians blatantly ignoring the earth scientists, and directly failing because of it, shows that this is not a new battle, it's just a new subject, and time and again earth scientists are getting it right.
That example is the Teton Dam.
posted by DoubleLune at 8:49 AM on March 31, 2015
That example is the Teton Dam.
posted by DoubleLune at 8:49 AM on March 31, 2015
Obviously only an incompetent engineer has to design with a factor of safety. Ask if she adds a safety factor in her designs.
Any engineer would laugh at you with contempt if you said that.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 4:41 PM on March 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Any engineer would laugh at you with contempt if you said that.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 4:41 PM on March 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Toss some Colbert and Stewart her way?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPgZfhnCAdI
posted by at at 6:40 AM on April 1, 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPgZfhnCAdI
posted by at at 6:40 AM on April 1, 2015
As an engineer with a lot of environmental background, I'm having a hard time following exactly what is going on here. Can you link to examples of the stuff this mother is sending her daughter, so we can formulate a counter to it?
posted by lizbunny at 9:45 PM on April 1, 2015
posted by lizbunny at 9:45 PM on April 1, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:19 PM on March 30, 2015 [1 favorite]