How can I get my 1.5 year old dog trained!?
November 20, 2005 9:06 AM Subscribe
I have a Shih Tzu (male) that I just can't get trained. Please help! Read on...
He's 1.5 years old and he's still peeing and pooping in the house. The first 9 months of his life he was bouncing between me and my girlfirend's houses, one of which has two cats. But the last 6 months or so he's been at my house all the time, with no cats, and we still can't get him trained. We consulted with a dog trainer, who basically coached us on getting him on a schedule, giving him treats *immediately* after he goes outside, etc.
First problem is that we can't seem to get him on a proper eating schedule. Sometimes he eats first thing in the morning and then at night, and sometimes his food from the morning sits there all day and then he'll eat at midnight.
Scheduling aside, he just seems unable to connect "outside" to going to the bathroom. We're trying to keep him in our view all the time, but there are 4-5 hours each day when we're at work and nobody's home. Just now he ate and then immediately ran upstairs. I knew he was going to poop so I followed him right away and caught him in the act and brought him downstairs and outside immediately to finish the job, but he wouldn't even finish it.
Even worse, yesterday he peed on my bed of all things! He usually never peed in what I called the "safe area" (because it's where we sleep), but that was kinda the last straw. He was not crate trained (maybe that was our biggest mistake), but either way it seems to be too late for that.
Help! What do I do?
He's 1.5 years old and he's still peeing and pooping in the house. The first 9 months of his life he was bouncing between me and my girlfirend's houses, one of which has two cats. But the last 6 months or so he's been at my house all the time, with no cats, and we still can't get him trained. We consulted with a dog trainer, who basically coached us on getting him on a schedule, giving him treats *immediately* after he goes outside, etc.
First problem is that we can't seem to get him on a proper eating schedule. Sometimes he eats first thing in the morning and then at night, and sometimes his food from the morning sits there all day and then he'll eat at midnight.
Scheduling aside, he just seems unable to connect "outside" to going to the bathroom. We're trying to keep him in our view all the time, but there are 4-5 hours each day when we're at work and nobody's home. Just now he ate and then immediately ran upstairs. I knew he was going to poop so I followed him right away and caught him in the act and brought him downstairs and outside immediately to finish the job, but he wouldn't even finish it.
Even worse, yesterday he peed on my bed of all things! He usually never peed in what I called the "safe area" (because it's where we sleep), but that was kinda the last straw. He was not crate trained (maybe that was our biggest mistake), but either way it seems to be too late for that.
Help! What do I do?
I can't help you altogether, but as for controlling the dog's eating schedule... take the food away. Put the food down at the same time every day, give him 30 minutes with it, then take it away. He'll quickly learn to eat when the food's put in front of him.
In addition, feed the same food/portion each time. This way, unless the dog has a physical illness, you know what time to expect him to do his business (X hours after eating). Then, make sure you're already outside at that time.
posted by dobbs at 9:22 AM on November 20, 2005
In addition, feed the same food/portion each time. This way, unless the dog has a physical illness, you know what time to expect him to do his business (X hours after eating). Then, make sure you're already outside at that time.
posted by dobbs at 9:22 AM on November 20, 2005
Oh, and if the trainer you hired didn't tell you to take the food away? They're a terrible trainer--do not give them any more money. It's the most basic thing in regulating an animal's schedule and you should have been told it straight off.
posted by dobbs at 9:24 AM on November 20, 2005
posted by dobbs at 9:24 AM on November 20, 2005
It's supposed to be possible to start crate training later in life, and your dog isn't very old.
posted by dilettante at 9:34 AM on November 20, 2005
posted by dilettante at 9:34 AM on November 20, 2005
Response by poster: The trainer actually did tell us to take the food away. We tried it for just about 2 weeks and he wasn't eating. Probably our fault on that one for not giving him long enough or trusting the system. But at this point, we're ready to try anything.
posted by Ekim Neems at 9:41 AM on November 20, 2005
posted by Ekim Neems at 9:41 AM on November 20, 2005
Seconding dobbs. It won't take more than a couple of days for the dog to understand he's going to miss out if he doesn't eat when the food goes down. You may even want to try switching to wet food or a wet/dry mix as it tends to result in a faster processing time.
And yes, be outside before the pooping starts. You want to create an environment where he can't fail. You may have to ration his water as well, so that you can take him outside after a good drink and wait for pee as well. When you're home, gate him into the room with you so he's not out of your sight and learn his sniffing/circling pre-elimination signals. Right now, he doesn't know how to hold his bowels or bladder, and that's something that takes time before the muscle control develops. He's going to have to understand that he's supposed to go outside before he'll learn to hold it, so expect this to take a couple of months before it's reliable.
Exercise will stimulate their bowels, so let him eat, wait half an hour or so, and go outside to play.
It's not too late to crate train. Most dogs can learn regardless of age.
Get some Nature's Miracle and clean up every accident he has so it doesn't smell like the right place to go. You might consider buying some housebreaking pads if you choose not to crate him. They're treated to smell like a good place to eliminate, so that if he can't hold it until you get home, at least he might stop going anywhere but the pads.
Consistency is really the key here, and since your schedule isn't you're going to have to be extra vigilant when you're home. Elimination rules are generally part of a dog's instincts, but he has to understand where his den boundaries are before it'll click.
We have a puppy who's never really been forced to hold it because we have a dog door for our older dog who can't wait all day, but if something happens and he can't get outside, he will absolutely wait until he can. It probably helps that the older dog always goes outside, so he's had a role model.
Anecdotally, I've seen older dogs (particularly males) in foster care with unknown backgrounds finally start to catch on if their alpha male also occasionally pees outside. That's between you, your neighbors, and your feelings about peeing in your own yard, but it might be worth a late-night try.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:51 AM on November 20, 2005
And yes, be outside before the pooping starts. You want to create an environment where he can't fail. You may have to ration his water as well, so that you can take him outside after a good drink and wait for pee as well. When you're home, gate him into the room with you so he's not out of your sight and learn his sniffing/circling pre-elimination signals. Right now, he doesn't know how to hold his bowels or bladder, and that's something that takes time before the muscle control develops. He's going to have to understand that he's supposed to go outside before he'll learn to hold it, so expect this to take a couple of months before it's reliable.
Exercise will stimulate their bowels, so let him eat, wait half an hour or so, and go outside to play.
It's not too late to crate train. Most dogs can learn regardless of age.
Get some Nature's Miracle and clean up every accident he has so it doesn't smell like the right place to go. You might consider buying some housebreaking pads if you choose not to crate him. They're treated to smell like a good place to eliminate, so that if he can't hold it until you get home, at least he might stop going anywhere but the pads.
Consistency is really the key here, and since your schedule isn't you're going to have to be extra vigilant when you're home. Elimination rules are generally part of a dog's instincts, but he has to understand where his den boundaries are before it'll click.
We have a puppy who's never really been forced to hold it because we have a dog door for our older dog who can't wait all day, but if something happens and he can't get outside, he will absolutely wait until he can. It probably helps that the older dog always goes outside, so he's had a role model.
Anecdotally, I've seen older dogs (particularly males) in foster care with unknown backgrounds finally start to catch on if their alpha male also occasionally pees outside. That's between you, your neighbors, and your feelings about peeing in your own yard, but it might be worth a late-night try.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:51 AM on November 20, 2005
I'll second the crate training. It works because dogs don't like to go to the bathroom where they have to lie down in it. It should work with an older dog as well. Just make sure that you take your dog out right away after you take him out of the crate. Then praise him for going to the bathroom outside, and give him a treat. You want to reinforce the positive behavior, while not giving him a chance to pee or poo inside. You should be as thorough as possible in cleaning up the places he has already gone inside, as he will be attracted to do it there again if any smell remains. Getting a consistent feeding schedule should help as well.
I would also make sure that he's not having some kind of problem that is causing this as well, such as kidney or bladder problems.
posted by jefeweiss at 10:04 AM on November 20, 2005
I would also make sure that he's not having some kind of problem that is causing this as well, such as kidney or bladder problems.
posted by jefeweiss at 10:04 AM on November 20, 2005
The VERY first thing to do is get a thorough vet exam, to rule out any physical cause for this. Unless the dog has seen the vet recently specifically to rule out physical causes for a housetraining problem, you need to get him to the vet.
What dobbs said. Food down for 20-30 minutes, then taken away until the next mealtime (he should have his daily ration split into two meals a day).
dilettante is also correct, you need to crate train this dog, and make sure you don't get a crate that's too big, the dog needs room to turn around, stand up and lie down comfortably, no more - if you give him too much space he will be able to relieve himself in there and get away from it, so he won't have any incentive to hold it in. You must TRAIN him to the crate (Ian Dunbar's "Before & After You Get Your Puppy" has a good crate training section, more here and here). I would also get a "Vari Kennel" style of crate, not a wire one, since I have seen dogs manage to relieve themselves through the bars of a wire crate, and that is exactly what you do not want. The dog needs to be treated like a puppy, because from the standpoint of housetraining, he IS a puppy. From now until the dog has been reliably housetrained (as in no accidents and no attempts at accidents)for six months or more, the dog needs to be on a lead, attached to you, or in his crate at all times. Feed on a schedule, take out on a schedule (after every meal, after every nap, after every play session, or at least every 4 hours or so), reward like mad for relieving himself outside (praise calmly when he starts, attach a word to each deed ("good potty, Fido...gooooooood potty", you'll feel like an idiot, but attaching a word to this is VERY useful), and when he's done, throw a party, jump around, tell him he's the best dog in the world, feed him extra-good treats (like cooked chicken), in general make it really obvious that he's just done something amazing. This is also a good area to use clicker training in. Do not shout at or punish him for messing in the house, this serves no useful purpose and may actually make the process harder since he will start to become anxious about it (without actually understanding - remember, it's easier to teach a dog what TO do than what NOT to do).
You absolutely do need to manage the dog extremely closely until you get this solved, every single time you allow the dog to make a mess in the house, you are reinforcing the behaviour of messing in the house - defecation or urination is a self-rewarding behaviour. Make sure the dog gets plenty of exercise and is eating a good diet, make a schedule and stick to it, do not ever let the dog out of your sight or off-lead in the house, if you catch him in the act, say "AH AH!" and hustle him outside right away, gentle praise for relieving himself, big party and reward when he's done (keep a bowl of treats out of his reach near the back door and grab a handful every time you take him out), and the next time he messes in the house, take a newspaper, roll it up, and hit yourself over the head with it for allowing it to happen.
Housetraining is very easy if you do it right the first time, once you have allowed a dog to get into the habit of messing in the house, you first have to overcome the obstacle of the dog thinking the house is the bathroom and THEN retrain it to go outside. This is not the dog's fault, it's because of a lack of proper training and management from day one. Also, get into fun, positive obedience training classes with the dog, you will learn a lot about how dogs think and learn (if you have a good trainer), you will bond better with your dog, and your dog will be happier and have more structure to his life - all these things will make living with the dog better.
posted by biscotti at 10:04 AM on November 20, 2005
What dobbs said. Food down for 20-30 minutes, then taken away until the next mealtime (he should have his daily ration split into two meals a day).
dilettante is also correct, you need to crate train this dog, and make sure you don't get a crate that's too big, the dog needs room to turn around, stand up and lie down comfortably, no more - if you give him too much space he will be able to relieve himself in there and get away from it, so he won't have any incentive to hold it in. You must TRAIN him to the crate (Ian Dunbar's "Before & After You Get Your Puppy" has a good crate training section, more here and here). I would also get a "Vari Kennel" style of crate, not a wire one, since I have seen dogs manage to relieve themselves through the bars of a wire crate, and that is exactly what you do not want. The dog needs to be treated like a puppy, because from the standpoint of housetraining, he IS a puppy. From now until the dog has been reliably housetrained (as in no accidents and no attempts at accidents)for six months or more, the dog needs to be on a lead, attached to you, or in his crate at all times. Feed on a schedule, take out on a schedule (after every meal, after every nap, after every play session, or at least every 4 hours or so), reward like mad for relieving himself outside (praise calmly when he starts, attach a word to each deed ("good potty, Fido...gooooooood potty", you'll feel like an idiot, but attaching a word to this is VERY useful), and when he's done, throw a party, jump around, tell him he's the best dog in the world, feed him extra-good treats (like cooked chicken), in general make it really obvious that he's just done something amazing. This is also a good area to use clicker training in. Do not shout at or punish him for messing in the house, this serves no useful purpose and may actually make the process harder since he will start to become anxious about it (without actually understanding - remember, it's easier to teach a dog what TO do than what NOT to do).
You absolutely do need to manage the dog extremely closely until you get this solved, every single time you allow the dog to make a mess in the house, you are reinforcing the behaviour of messing in the house - defecation or urination is a self-rewarding behaviour. Make sure the dog gets plenty of exercise and is eating a good diet, make a schedule and stick to it, do not ever let the dog out of your sight or off-lead in the house, if you catch him in the act, say "AH AH!" and hustle him outside right away, gentle praise for relieving himself, big party and reward when he's done (keep a bowl of treats out of his reach near the back door and grab a handful every time you take him out), and the next time he messes in the house, take a newspaper, roll it up, and hit yourself over the head with it for allowing it to happen.
Housetraining is very easy if you do it right the first time, once you have allowed a dog to get into the habit of messing in the house, you first have to overcome the obstacle of the dog thinking the house is the bathroom and THEN retrain it to go outside. This is not the dog's fault, it's because of a lack of proper training and management from day one. Also, get into fun, positive obedience training classes with the dog, you will learn a lot about how dogs think and learn (if you have a good trainer), you will bond better with your dog, and your dog will be happier and have more structure to his life - all these things will make living with the dog better.
posted by biscotti at 10:04 AM on November 20, 2005
Also, keep the crate where you are - do not banish the dog to another room, have it in your bedroom at night and in the busiest part of the house during the day.
posted by biscotti at 10:05 AM on November 20, 2005
posted by biscotti at 10:05 AM on November 20, 2005
I once owned a wonderful, kind little Shih Tzu who had problems similar to yours - mostly the not eating, but housebreaking did take surprisingly long. I fear that despite their friendliness, they are stone fucking dumb. Lyn Never has some ace stuff above, and please please please give this great little dog a chance.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:06 AM on November 20, 2005
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:06 AM on November 20, 2005
Crate training is the answer here, and biscotti's advice above is 100% right on. If you really put the time and effort in, your dog will take right to it.
posted by MrZero at 10:09 AM on November 20, 2005
posted by MrZero at 10:09 AM on November 20, 2005
Response by poster: We're definitely willing to put in the time and effort. We love this dog to death; I think he's too cute for his own good.
How long can we expect it to take for him to stop whining in the crate? And what exactly is a "lead" if we're not going to crate train? Does that mean that we just keep him on a short leash or something when we're in the house to ensure he doesn't sneak off to go to the bathroom?
We have been giving him treats as soon as he's finished. I put a beggin strip in my pocket when I take him out, and within 2 seconds of him finishing I say "good boy!" in a highpitched voice and give him the treat.
I remember we tried to crate train him right away when we got him, but he literally was crying to the point that he was almost screaming for 4 hours straight. He didn't just give up and go to sleep.
I agree with Optimus Chyme when I say he really does seem stupid in a lot of ways. But really smart in others. He's just not smart when it comes to the things I want him to be smart about!
posted by Ekim Neems at 10:27 AM on November 20, 2005
How long can we expect it to take for him to stop whining in the crate? And what exactly is a "lead" if we're not going to crate train? Does that mean that we just keep him on a short leash or something when we're in the house to ensure he doesn't sneak off to go to the bathroom?
We have been giving him treats as soon as he's finished. I put a beggin strip in my pocket when I take him out, and within 2 seconds of him finishing I say "good boy!" in a highpitched voice and give him the treat.
I remember we tried to crate train him right away when we got him, but he literally was crying to the point that he was almost screaming for 4 hours straight. He didn't just give up and go to sleep.
I agree with Optimus Chyme when I say he really does seem stupid in a lot of ways. But really smart in others. He's just not smart when it comes to the things I want him to be smart about!
posted by Ekim Neems at 10:27 AM on November 20, 2005
Oh, and I don't know if the trainer told you this, but when he goes outside successfully you have to throw a freaking party. Jump up and down, pet him, do the full out "yay such a good dog!", give him treats, throw his favorite toy. The dog has to think he just turned lead into gold (which I guess he kind of did). Dogs are total positive reinforcement sponges.
You may also want to start now with the door bell. Hang a big jingle bell at his level by the door he goes out, and on the way outside help him ring the bell (I've heard a dab of peanut butter is easiest, but if he already knows "shake" or "wave" or "high five" you can work with that) until he learns that he can ring the bell to ask to go outside. Do the good dog yay thing there, too. You may want to move the bell when you're not home, though, until he works out that part of the equation.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:28 AM on November 20, 2005
You may also want to start now with the door bell. Hang a big jingle bell at his level by the door he goes out, and on the way outside help him ring the bell (I've heard a dab of peanut butter is easiest, but if he already knows "shake" or "wave" or "high five" you can work with that) until he learns that he can ring the bell to ask to go outside. Do the good dog yay thing there, too. You may want to move the bell when you're not home, though, until he works out that part of the equation.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:28 AM on November 20, 2005
Be cautious with the treated "training pads"--I know a dog who was trained using those and now seeks out rugs and other pad-like spots to pee, inside.
posted by needs more cowbell at 10:40 AM on November 20, 2005
posted by needs more cowbell at 10:40 AM on November 20, 2005
Oops, cross post. You're already throwing the party - that's a good start. Just keep up on not letting him fail.
I think shih-tzus aren't very good jumpers, right? You can probably get away with using baby gates to keep him in your vicinity rather than a leash. At night, you may have to creatively block him into one side of the bed so that he's got to go over you to pee somewhere in the room away from his sleeping place. Nights should be better once you're controlling his food and water, though.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:46 AM on November 20, 2005
I think shih-tzus aren't very good jumpers, right? You can probably get away with using baby gates to keep him in your vicinity rather than a leash. At night, you may have to creatively block him into one side of the bed so that he's got to go over you to pee somewhere in the room away from his sleeping place. Nights should be better once you're controlling his food and water, though.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:46 AM on November 20, 2005
We have been giving him treats as soon as he's finished. I put a beggin strip in my pocket when I take him out, and within 2 seconds of him finishing I say "good boy!" in a highpitched voice and give him the treat.
Are you sure he really understand praise? We took our puppy through puppy class, and they had us train him specifically to recognize praise as good (or to reinforce the idea). You sit down in front of the dog, say "Good boy", or whatever equivalent you consistently use, and immediately hand over a treat. Over and over, a couple of minutes a day. We were told that otherwise, the delay between the praise and the treat or the act and the treat could be enough to interfere with the mental connection.
Out of curiosity, have you gone through any kind of obedience training class with your dog, or done any regular training? There are some very basic information sheets in pdf at the bottom of this page. Disclaimer: our puppy class was through this organization.
You know how people run up to pregnant women and new parents and start giving them all kinds of insane advice?
posted by dilettante at 11:16 AM on November 20, 2005
Are you sure he really understand praise? We took our puppy through puppy class, and they had us train him specifically to recognize praise as good (or to reinforce the idea). You sit down in front of the dog, say "Good boy", or whatever equivalent you consistently use, and immediately hand over a treat. Over and over, a couple of minutes a day. We were told that otherwise, the delay between the praise and the treat or the act and the treat could be enough to interfere with the mental connection.
Out of curiosity, have you gone through any kind of obedience training class with your dog, or done any regular training? There are some very basic information sheets in pdf at the bottom of this page. Disclaimer: our puppy class was through this organization.
You know how people run up to pregnant women and new parents and start giving them all kinds of insane advice?
posted by dilettante at 11:16 AM on November 20, 2005
Just chiming in to add to the crate training chorus. He may never stop whining about it, but you just have to be tough and do it. Make sure that you keep a pretty rigid schedule with it. When I crate trained my dog, I took him out of the crate every two hours (this was obviously the best, since I worked at home). Take him out to do his bid'ness and then play with him for a good while.
One thing that really helped me when I was learning how to train my dog and how he understands the world was along the lines of what Lyn Never said about creating an environment where the dog can't fail. The dog needs to learn that going to the bathroom in the house is simply not an option. Same goes for other things the dog needs to learn. Not listening to you? Isn't an option. If the dog doesn't respond to your command, you simply repeat it and repeat it until it finally submits. Eating on his own schedule? Not an option. He eats when you put the food down, or he doesn't eat. It's hard to be firm, because the dog is cute and you want him to be happy, but if you keep reminding yourself that he will be a much happier and healthy dog in the long run, it gets much easier.
posted by pazazygeek at 11:20 AM on November 20, 2005
One thing that really helped me when I was learning how to train my dog and how he understands the world was along the lines of what Lyn Never said about creating an environment where the dog can't fail. The dog needs to learn that going to the bathroom in the house is simply not an option. Same goes for other things the dog needs to learn. Not listening to you? Isn't an option. If the dog doesn't respond to your command, you simply repeat it and repeat it until it finally submits. Eating on his own schedule? Not an option. He eats when you put the food down, or he doesn't eat. It's hard to be firm, because the dog is cute and you want him to be happy, but if you keep reminding yourself that he will be a much happier and healthy dog in the long run, it gets much easier.
posted by pazazygeek at 11:20 AM on November 20, 2005
If you actually follow a crate training plan (outlined in the links I posted, and also in most good, modern puppy books), you should be able to acclimatize him to the crate fairly easily, it's a process, and you must make a policy to never let him out until he has been quiet for at least 5-10 seconds once you shut him in there (but before you get to shutting him in, you'll have been feeding him lots of treats in there and letting him come in and out many times). I don't think NOT crate training him should be considered as an option for this dog - you need to confine him to a small enough area when he is not under your direct supervision and control that he will not want to relieve himself - anything larger than a correctly-sized crate (even a large crate) is too much space and will make this whole thing harder to accomplish (if it's even possible to accomplish it at all without using a crate, which I very much doubt).
I say "lead" (as in "lead a horse to water" not as in "lead pipe") instead of "leash" a lot of the time, it's the same thing. What I mean is that the dog needs to be attached to you by collar and leash or in his crate 100% of the time when he's indoors for now. You need to be able to interrupt him immediately if he starts to relieve himself inside, get him outside, gentle praise when he starts, let him finish, reward like mad - you cannot do this effectively enough if you do not have direct control of him with a leash. If he's crated humanely (i.e. not left in there for hours and hours with no break, given enough exercise and human contact, not crated away from people in a separate room, etc.) when you are not with him and you keep him under direct control 100% of the time when he's not crated, AND you follow a schedule for feeding him and taking him out AND make sure he gets enough exercise AND make it extremely clear that the best things in the world happen to him when he relieves himself outside (I would use an extra-special treat that is his favourite thing in the world and that he never gets at any other time, bits of steak or chicken or bacon or cheese - you want him to say "WOAH!...what did I do to get that and how do I do it again?", not just "hey a treat, great"), you can have success with this. I strongly suggest you look into clicker training at least this one behaviour, it will make things easier. The reason to crate him or keep him on-leash at all times is that every time he has an accident in the house it is reinforcing his idea that the bathroom is inside, you have to absolutely stop him ever having another accident again, or at least stop him from finishing an accident he's started, you need direct physical control of him to accomplish this, anything less is not setting him up for success. Even just confining him to a smaller area allows him plenty of time to relieve himself before you get there, you will be much less likely to solve this if you try and find shortcuts.
It will probably take quite a few months or more, but if you commit to doing it you can do it. Yes, it will be a hassle, and will definitely require determination and commitment on your part, but your only other option is to have a dog that is not housebroken for the next decade plus. I'm glad you're committed to fixing this, you'll succeed if you remember that.
Do NOT use those puppy housetraining pads, as needs more cowbell says - the idea is to retrain the dog to understand that he can NEVER relieve himself inside the house, those training pads just reinforce the idea that he can mess in the house, and believe me, he already knows that, you want him to learn that the bathroom is OUTSIDE - the only way to do this is by making it true.
posted by biscotti at 11:23 AM on November 20, 2005
I say "lead" (as in "lead a horse to water" not as in "lead pipe") instead of "leash" a lot of the time, it's the same thing. What I mean is that the dog needs to be attached to you by collar and leash or in his crate 100% of the time when he's indoors for now. You need to be able to interrupt him immediately if he starts to relieve himself inside, get him outside, gentle praise when he starts, let him finish, reward like mad - you cannot do this effectively enough if you do not have direct control of him with a leash. If he's crated humanely (i.e. not left in there for hours and hours with no break, given enough exercise and human contact, not crated away from people in a separate room, etc.) when you are not with him and you keep him under direct control 100% of the time when he's not crated, AND you follow a schedule for feeding him and taking him out AND make sure he gets enough exercise AND make it extremely clear that the best things in the world happen to him when he relieves himself outside (I would use an extra-special treat that is his favourite thing in the world and that he never gets at any other time, bits of steak or chicken or bacon or cheese - you want him to say "WOAH!...what did I do to get that and how do I do it again?", not just "hey a treat, great"), you can have success with this. I strongly suggest you look into clicker training at least this one behaviour, it will make things easier. The reason to crate him or keep him on-leash at all times is that every time he has an accident in the house it is reinforcing his idea that the bathroom is inside, you have to absolutely stop him ever having another accident again, or at least stop him from finishing an accident he's started, you need direct physical control of him to accomplish this, anything less is not setting him up for success. Even just confining him to a smaller area allows him plenty of time to relieve himself before you get there, you will be much less likely to solve this if you try and find shortcuts.
It will probably take quite a few months or more, but if you commit to doing it you can do it. Yes, it will be a hassle, and will definitely require determination and commitment on your part, but your only other option is to have a dog that is not housebroken for the next decade plus. I'm glad you're committed to fixing this, you'll succeed if you remember that.
Do NOT use those puppy housetraining pads, as needs more cowbell says - the idea is to retrain the dog to understand that he can NEVER relieve himself inside the house, those training pads just reinforce the idea that he can mess in the house, and believe me, he already knows that, you want him to learn that the bathroom is OUTSIDE - the only way to do this is by making it true.
posted by biscotti at 11:23 AM on November 20, 2005
Are you sure he really understand praise? We took our puppy through puppy class, and they had us train him specifically to recognize praise as good (or to reinforce the idea).
Heh. I've heard of that concept, I'm not convinced by it. On the scale of "how reinforcing something is" for a given dog, praise is likely to be WAY down the list, and is definitely not high enough on the list to be useful for initial training and especially not for retraining (as in this case). Praise is normally only useful as an adjunct reward in initial training, it's not useful by itself (I never stop rewarding my dog with things he actually finds reinforcing - I use praise all the time, but I don't expect him to work for praise alone). We'd like to think that praise is enough, but it's really not, especially in a case like this. Dogs like to be praised, but that doesn't mean they like it enough to change ingrained behaviour for it.
We can try all we like to make the dog think that praise is better than the dog thinks it is, but that's like me trying to convince you that Brussels sprouts are delicious and your favourite thing in the world when you just don't like them. No matter how much I try to train you to think that Brussels sprouts are delicious, you are not going to see them as rewarding enough to truly be a behavioural reinforcer (as in "something that makes you more likely to repeat a behaviour in order to get"). Unless I starved you and only offered you Brussels sprouts, and even then, you wouldn't LIKE them, I'd just have placed you in a position where ANYTHING was better than what you already had (i.e. nothing). If the goal is to get the dog to repeat the behaviour you want, then you need to tailor the reward to the dog, not try and tailor the dog to the reward.
posted by biscotti at 11:36 AM on November 20, 2005
Heh. I've heard of that concept, I'm not convinced by it. On the scale of "how reinforcing something is" for a given dog, praise is likely to be WAY down the list, and is definitely not high enough on the list to be useful for initial training and especially not for retraining (as in this case). Praise is normally only useful as an adjunct reward in initial training, it's not useful by itself (I never stop rewarding my dog with things he actually finds reinforcing - I use praise all the time, but I don't expect him to work for praise alone). We'd like to think that praise is enough, but it's really not, especially in a case like this. Dogs like to be praised, but that doesn't mean they like it enough to change ingrained behaviour for it.
We can try all we like to make the dog think that praise is better than the dog thinks it is, but that's like me trying to convince you that Brussels sprouts are delicious and your favourite thing in the world when you just don't like them. No matter how much I try to train you to think that Brussels sprouts are delicious, you are not going to see them as rewarding enough to truly be a behavioural reinforcer (as in "something that makes you more likely to repeat a behaviour in order to get"). Unless I starved you and only offered you Brussels sprouts, and even then, you wouldn't LIKE them, I'd just have placed you in a position where ANYTHING was better than what you already had (i.e. nothing). If the goal is to get the dog to repeat the behaviour you want, then you need to tailor the reward to the dog, not try and tailor the dog to the reward.
posted by biscotti at 11:36 AM on November 20, 2005
Dogs like to be praised, but that doesn't mean they like it enough to change ingrained behaviour for it.
I think the idea was to get him to understand that praise is a signal that there will be a treat coming - that otherwise the delay was too much for puppy brains or something. It seemed to work okay for ours, but he's incredibly people-oriented and attention motivated, much more than most other dogs I've had or known, and will sometimes ignore treats from one person if someone else will pet him and fuss over him.
And damn it, it was this page of very simple stuff. I didn't close a bracket or something.
posted by dilettante at 11:45 AM on November 20, 2005
I think the idea was to get him to understand that praise is a signal that there will be a treat coming - that otherwise the delay was too much for puppy brains or something. It seemed to work okay for ours, but he's incredibly people-oriented and attention motivated, much more than most other dogs I've had or known, and will sometimes ignore treats from one person if someone else will pet him and fuss over him.
And damn it, it was this page of very simple stuff. I didn't close a bracket or something.
posted by dilettante at 11:45 AM on November 20, 2005
I think the idea was to get him to understand that praise is a signal that there will be a treat coming
That does make sense. That's sort of operant conditioning, which is what clicker training is based on.
posted by biscotti at 12:06 PM on November 20, 2005
That does make sense. That's sort of operant conditioning, which is what clicker training is based on.
posted by biscotti at 12:06 PM on November 20, 2005
One thing that I haven't really seen here is to suggest that when he does make a mistake inside, don't make a big deal about it. To a dog who may not really know praise from other kinds of attention, it could be that any "negative" attention that you give him when he goes inside might seem pretty close to what he gets outside, though for you it's obviously completely different.
posted by mikel at 3:27 PM on November 20, 2005
posted by mikel at 3:27 PM on November 20, 2005
Almost everything here is great advice. I just want to add a note about crate-training.
Make sure you follow it as a reputable book or site describes. It's not as simple as "put the dog in the crate, close the door, wait." Again, you need positive reinforcement to convince the dog that the crate is his den and somewhere he really, really wants to be. There's a lot of detail on this, so look it up -- don't do it alone.
Disclaimer: I've never known a Shih Tzu. My family used to raise German shepherds through Fidelco.
posted by booksandlibretti at 3:51 PM on November 20, 2005
Make sure you follow it as a reputable book or site describes. It's not as simple as "put the dog in the crate, close the door, wait." Again, you need positive reinforcement to convince the dog that the crate is his den and somewhere he really, really wants to be. There's a lot of detail on this, so look it up -- don't do it alone.
Disclaimer: I've never known a Shih Tzu. My family used to raise German shepherds through Fidelco.
posted by booksandlibretti at 3:51 PM on November 20, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Ekim Neems at 9:17 AM on November 20, 2005