Adultery 101

January 15, 2015 9:25 AM

My cousin, with whom I'm close, is mad at me because I didn't tell her that her boyfriend was cheating on her.

I have a female cousin with whom I'm very close. We live close to each other and socialize together a lot. Since my wife is basically an antisocial hermit, said cousin often tags along when I'm invited to stuff.

Cousin is a well to do woman in her mid forties and is currently in a relationship with a man. I've been asking her why they were not getting married since I know my cousin had always envisioned herself married with children. She would always tell me that it's not part of the plan.

Then I recently found out from a common friend that my cousin's boyfriend is married with kids, although his family and him are estranged. In fact they live abroad. My cousin doesn't know that I know that her boyfriend is married.

Now. During the holiday season, I spotted said boyfriend in a bar with a girl he seemed very friendly with. I didn't ask who she was nor did I care the slightest. Only, it turns out I had told my cousin I was going out to that bar that evening and she knows her boyfriend was there too. When she asked if anything interesting had happened, I did not mention that I had run into her boyfriend.

Fast forward. She just found out her boyfriend is going out with this other girl, and is angry at me for not telling her. Is she right about this?

The problem is that I really don't feel guilty about not telling her because a/ male solidarity (in this country a man doesn't rat on another on things like infidelity) and b/ she is not even married to the boyfriend (not that I'd have told her anyway)

She is hurt and probably expects me to apologise about not-having-her-best-interest-at-heart but I don't want to. Then again, I'm wondering if I'm not just being a selfish prick.

Question is: how would you handle this?

posted by Kwadeng to Human Relations (51 answers total)

Wow.

You should apologize. You knew a couple of pieces of information that would impact her life, and you didn't think it was important?

i think you're wrong here. I am speaking as an American, so this may be a cultural thing.
posted by heathrowga at 9:29 AM on January 15, 2015 [44 favorites]

In my country, male solidarity is considered to be based on misogynistic and arbitrary principles, and it would be shocking to value it higher than solidarity with a close loved one, or friend. Your cousin clearly feels betrayed and devalued by you, and with good reason.

At the very least, it seems you're withholding an apology on the basis of pride. Is it worth it to you to hurt and potentially alienate your cousin and close friend for a vague sense that you're in the right? If so, you don't deserve her friendship, and I hope for her to find a close companion who respects her and looks out for her best interest.
posted by namesarehard at 9:30 AM on January 15, 2015 [78 favorites]

Uhhhhh.

1) I don't know what country you live in, but "male solidarity" that protects men from the consequences of cheating is stupid bullshit. (By the way, the consequences for women when their boyfriends cheat can be any of the following: broken heart, STDs, financial ruin, and wasting significant portions of their time.)

2) Who cares if she's married? People in serious relationships are also hurt by cheating. Cheating is a deep violation of trust.

3) You didn't have to tell her if you didn't want to. I would apologize and say that you simply didn't know the full extent of the situation, and didn't want to cause drama or get involved in something you didn't understand. I don't know why you don't understand her hurt, though. Would you enjoy being cheated on? Would you feel betrayed if your friends just let it happened and shrugged their shoulders when you found out?
posted by stoneandstar at 9:31 AM on January 15, 2015 [72 favorites]

I thought it was a bit of a moral grey area until I read that your reasonings were "male solidarity" and that they aren't married. Now I'm sorry to say that I think you are being a jerk. It's not cool to place a general loyalty to your gender over a person you are related to and consider yourself close with. And a non-married relationship can still be very, very real and important. I understand that you're living in a different culture than I am, in the United States, but I don't think that gives you an excuse not to treat people you care about with respect.

Think about this: If you were in a serious relationship, and your cousin found out your partner was cheating on you and didn't tell you because she didn't care enough to bother with it (which seems to be a strong motivating factor here, even though you didn't say so explicitly): would you be upset with her? Would you be hurt she didn't care enough to clue you into the fact that someone you trusted was betraying that trust?
posted by something something at 9:31 AM on January 15, 2015 [43 favorites]

Even in a social context where it's not expected that men will "rat on" infidelity, this seems like a "blood is thicker than water" situation.

You should apologize and tell your cousin what you know about her "boyfriend" being married, if you haven't already.

You should have done that when you found out (if I have the timeline right) and then would have avoided the whole situation with the bar.
posted by Jahaza at 9:32 AM on January 15, 2015 [8 favorites]

Blood is thicker than water. And you stand up for your friends.
IMO, she is right -and you are wrong.

You think some generalized concept of male solidarity trumps both family and friends.
That is an incredible position.

You saw a family member and a friend getting burned -
and decided to turn a blind eye because of some insane macho-man code? Wow.
posted by Flood at 9:34 AM on January 15, 2015 [22 favorites]

If you think "male solidarity" (i.e allowing a man to lie and betray someone they have presumably committed themselves too because hey "Hi five bro!") trumps your close family relationship (because hey she's just a woman right?) then I don't know what to say to you to make you understand how incredibly wrong and screwed up your priorities are.
posted by whoaali at 9:35 AM on January 15, 2015 [86 favorites]

Then again, I'm wondering if I'm not just being a selfish prick.

Yeah, I think you are. Good luck finding a new best female friend. If you can't buck up and apologize and I think it would be perfectly within bounds to say, "It made me really uncomfortable and I didn't know what to think and I know now that I should have told you but I just wasn't sure...I'm sorry for that now, please forgive me."

Or, you know. Male solidarity, I guess. You chose him over her in that case. Bleh.
posted by amanda at 9:37 AM on January 15, 2015 [10 favorites]

Oh, also, do you know but she doesn't that he's married? If so, time to fess up. If this is true then I think this is a factor in your complicated moral quandary about "snitching" on the boyfriend. It's not just the boyfriend being caught out, it sounds like you don't really know what the whole story is in their relationship (but why? if you are so close?). Just get this all out in the open so you can either be a better friend to this woman or she can cut you out of her life.
posted by amanda at 9:40 AM on January 15, 2015 [13 favorites]

a/ male solidarity (in this country a man doesn't rat on another on things like infidelity)

I hate to pile on ... this detail seems to be killing everyone ... but wow, I find that defense of your actions astonishingly hard-hearted, cruel, and misguided. It's so utterly beyond the pale of what I consider an acceptable attitude toward your female relative that I am hoping you have misinterpreted this norm.

As I'm reading you, you think you owe a duty of solidarity to people you don't know, because they're male, over a woman even if she's close family?

So yes, you owe her an apology.
posted by jayder at 9:40 AM on January 15, 2015 [21 favorites]

Sorry, but male solidarity = dick move.
posted by pibeandres at 9:43 AM on January 15, 2015 [8 favorites]

That reasoning sounds to me like the equivalent of someone completely screwing over a friend and then excusing themselves by saying "It's just business".

If you were in the same position, or say you found out you'd been cuckolded and were raising some other guy's kids, and your cousin knew about it all along, would you seriously accept the same bullshit excuses yourself and consider your cousin to have properly and sincerely held up her end of the friendship? If you wouldn't take this shit from her you sure as hell shouldn't expect her to take it from you.
posted by XMLicious at 9:45 AM on January 15, 2015 [7 favorites]

If you are not sorry, at least admit to her that you care more about "male solidarity" than you do about her life. Be honest with her, whatever your feelings are, so she can know in the future how much she should trust you or do anything to make your life easier if she ever has that choice. Own it.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:45 AM on January 15, 2015 [26 favorites]

I don't think you should have done anything for male solidarity, but I think you were in the right for not telling your cousin. It is always, 100%, without a doubt NEVER a good idea to get involved in the problems of someone else's relationship.

In an ideal world, you would present the damning information to the person being wronged and they would thank you and act on the information by breaking it off with the aggrieving party. You would be chummy and closer after you looked out for them.

In the real world, most of the time that situation ends in the couple staying together either through the person not believing you or believing you and stupidly forgiving the other person. It leaves you being the "one that tried to break them up" and things are weird with your former friend and downright hostile with their cheating SO. Even if your friend/cousin did the right thing, you would probably end up resented for it.

edit: and boy did you ever pick the wrong site to mention something like "male solidarity." Woowee.
posted by Willie0248 at 9:45 AM on January 15, 2015 [12 favorites]

How do you not even take an interest in the fact that your "close" cousin is being railroaded? You knew this guy was married and didn't tell her? So much WTF here it's unreal.

how would you handle this?

This scenario wouldn't happen to me because I can't even imagine making your choices here, in this universe or any other. The right thing for you to do now is to apologize to your cousin and reflect deeply on all the things people are saying.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:48 AM on January 15, 2015 [10 favorites]

Echoing amanda, one standout question to me was if she knows he's married with children. If she doesn't, that fact is hugely more important than you spotting her dude in a bar with another woman.

And yeah, I think you owe her an apology. "Male solidarity" the the bunk as others have pointed out already. (Edit: I'm male, by the way.) You're taking the side of some sketchy dude over your blood relation with whom you say you're close. I infer that when you say you didn't ask who she was, you either spoke to him at the bar or mentioned you'd seen him. In that case he's even expecting you to cover for him even though he isn't even being discreet about cheating on your cousin. I hope you can tell how wrong that situation is.
posted by Gelatin at 9:48 AM on January 15, 2015 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: I didn’t mean to threadsit but… just to clarify before I’m hanged for misogyny

a/ I’m quite positive that my cousin knows that her boyfriend is married

b/ I just ran into the boyfriend talking to a woman at a bar, and I have no proof he was indeed cheating on my cousin. I didn't see the point in stirring up trouble when I had no evidence
posted by Kwadeng at 9:53 AM on January 15, 2015 [2 favorites]

If you need (another) reminder of how serious this is for your cousin, you might consider the fact that if she has not been using barrier protection with him (condoms) under the assumption that she is the only one he is sexually active with, she's just been confronted with the anxiety/hassle/fear of having to go for a full STD panel (many STDs--including HIV--can be "silent" for women with regards to detectable symptoms).

[ETA: if she DOES know about the wife, he may have assured her that his wife is tested/clean--which means the news of additional partners is still a big bad surprise, in terms of her choices about sexual health risk.]
posted by blue suede stockings at 9:55 AM on January 15, 2015 [6 favorites]

What you're saying is this: "Even though we're close and familiy, i really don't give a shit if a total male stranger lies to you and cheats on you, because...we both have a penis."

That line of thought is so fucked up you're embarrassing all the selfish pricks of the world.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:55 AM on January 15, 2015 [77 favorites]

In another universe, I could imagine you posting a question along the lines of, "Dear AskMeFi, I was at a bar the other night and saw my cousin's boyfriend in the company of another woman. I didn't ask any questions, but just to be safe, I told my cousin about it. She broke up with her boyfriend even though he claims the woman was just a friend. Now everyone is telling me that I should stop creating drama and mind my own business. Did I do the right thing?" I can imagine the pile-on.

The point of that hypothetical is that this is a situation where reasonable people could disagree on whether or not to tell. I agree with Willie0248 that the most prudent course is generally not to involve yourself in someone else's relationship. The wrongdoer is the boyfriend - you didn't cheat on your cousin. Even if you had told your cousin, you would likely not be hailed as a hero and your family and friends would remember that you are an informer. In general, people don't like rats, except when they do.
posted by Tanizaki at 9:56 AM on January 15, 2015 [4 favorites]

I didn't see the point in stirring up trouble when I had no evidence

Then apologize and say this. If you don't want to apologize, then I guess you think you did nothing wrong and she's silly to feel hurt, so I'd say give up on being friends with this person (she deserves a better friend anyway).

"Male solidarity" is what leads to women being treated as less than human, and feeling that way too. If I suspected this was your reason for not telling me something so major, I'd really hate you right now. An apology is the LEAST you could do.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:00 AM on January 15, 2015 [25 favorites]

It's a relief to know she at least knows whatever he's told her about being married, but the situation with the other girl in the bar makes me wonder how much of that is true, or if he even told her the same story you heard from your friend.

I understand the reluctance to stir up a lot of drama based on relatively few facts, but you deliberately chose not to mention to your cousin that you'd seen him at a bar with another woman. Why not? She might have known about it anyway or he was even there with her blessing. You seem to have had your suspicions about what he was doing, but it isn't completely unreasonable not to share them if you aren't sure. But there's no call not to simply state the basic facts" "Yeah, I saw your dude at the bar. He had a female friend with him," or something like that.

As blue suede stocking pointed out, the dude's cheating may well have put her health at risk. He wasn't even being subtle about it; she deserved to know.
posted by Gelatin at 10:04 AM on January 15, 2015 [4 favorites]

You made some decisions that show you don't respect/care for your cousin very much and you were disloyal to her for pretty ridiculous and illegitimate reasons. And, now you're rationalizing and minimizing them to defend decisions that aren't defensible. It's good for your cousin to see who you really are and know that she can't really count on you to have her back. Don't apologize if you don't see the error of your ways, it will only cloud the situation and give her a false sense of security.
posted by quince at 10:14 AM on January 15, 2015 [9 favorites]

I suspect, given past questions, that not speaking up wasn't so much 'male solidarity' as it was 'cheater solidarity.'

You done gone fucked up here. Saying "Um so I saw your significant other in a compromising situation with someone else, not sure what was going on exactly, but figure you should know" is a basic standard of human decency.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:17 AM on January 15, 2015 [32 favorites]

You ran into the boyfriend talking to a woman at a bar, and when your cousin asked you what happened there you chose to lie to her, even though you say you had 'no evidence' of wrongdoing --- that's what you have to apologize for, your lying. And your line about "male solidarity" just comes off as bull, because if you truly believed nothing happened between the boyfriend and the other woman, you'd have told your cousin the truth.

Instead, you have chosen to lie for a man you know is cheating on both his wife and his current girlfriend (your cousin), rather than support that cousin, whom you yourself say in your original post does not know that her boyfriend, a liar like you, is in fact married. You also chose to lie by omission, by never telling your cousin that you have known for some time that her boyfriend is married.

Apologize to your cousin, and tell her the truth --- all the truth.
posted by easily confused at 10:17 AM on January 15, 2015 [6 favorites]

It costs nothing to apologize, and if you value the friendship, you will.

That said, it would be perfectly legitimate not to tell her that you saw the guy with a girl in a bar because you thought it was innocent. Being in a bar with a woman does not equal sex with the said woman. You could say "I probably should have mentioned this considering how it turned out, but at the time it didn't seem like a thing."

Some of her anger is misplaced -- she didn't spot the cheating herself. Personally I think it could be a bit creepy to say "Hey, I saw your married boyfriend in a bar. With a female third party!!!" unless they were hanging all over each other.
posted by musofire at 10:19 AM on January 15, 2015

It doesn't even have to go so far as "I saw your significant other in a compromising situation" (though I'll say again that I inferred you did think it was compromising at the time). All you have to say is "Hey, I saw Bob at the bar last night. He was sitting with Alice."

If your cousin says "Who's Alice?" or "He told me he was alone" or "He said he was at the library," then any uncertainty you might have had about whether it was compromising vanishes.

But again, I don't think that's what happened. He was cheating fairly blatantly and counting on you -- correctly -- to cover for him. Not good at all.
posted by Gelatin at 10:20 AM on January 15, 2015 [6 favorites]

I suspect, given past questions, that not speaking up wasn't so much 'male solidarity' as it was 'cheater solidarity.'

I've been reading OP's past posts and comments as well (including the deleted one) and... I'm at a loss. OP is coming from a philosophy and personal history where cheating is perfectly acceptable, so of course it's going to be hard for OP to grasp why the cousin and others here are reacting this way.

Your cousin is right. You should have told her what you saw. You're looking for some sort of justification (again) and I don't think you'll find many people here willing to do that.
posted by mochapickle at 10:24 AM on January 15, 2015 [22 favorites]

I haven't read up on the OP's past posts, but it sounds as if her boyfriend's cheating (and his own casual acceptance of same) wasn't perfectly acceptable to his cousin, and I would strongly suggest he think about that fact.
posted by Gelatin at 10:27 AM on January 15, 2015 [2 favorites]

The problem is that I really don't feel guilty about not telling her because a/ male solidarity (in this country a man doesn't rat on another on things like infidelity) and b/ she is not even married to the boyfriend (not that I'd have told her anyway)


The answer was C) I didn't really know what was going on, and didn't want to jump to conclusions. I'm so sorry this has happened to you. I wish I had told you what I saw.That guy is a jerk!


Also - who cares whether you feel guilty or not? That's not the only criterion on which to base an apology. Your cousin is hurting. Apologizing and expressing sympathy costs you ZERO.

You blew it.
posted by vitabellosi at 10:35 AM on January 15, 2015 [8 favorites]

I spotted said boyfriend in a bar with a girl he seemed very friendly with

What do you mean by "very friendly"?
posted by extramundane at 10:40 AM on January 15, 2015

You say that you didn't have any evidence, so why didn't you at least say you saw him there with someone when asked directly? The logical conclusion (that I bet your cousin reached) is that you are trying to cover up some pretty shitty behavior.
posted by unreasonable at 10:44 AM on January 15, 2015 [6 favorites]

I don't think you're a terrible person for not having told your cousin about the girl in the bar. You had no way of knowing what was going on, and it's not really your business.

The "male solidarity" thing and the idea that you wouldn't have told her even if you were 100% sure her boyfriend was cheating....? That's the part that's grossing me out.

Maybe think about why you feel that way, and if those reasons are good reasons.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 10:55 AM on January 15, 2015 [3 favorites]

By male solidarity I hope you don't mean that you, too, get "very friendly" with strange women at bars in the absence of your wife. Your description of your wife being an antisocial hermit sounds dismissive at best - this is obviously my opinion but you're coming off as misogynistic in more ways than just using 'male solidarity' as an excuse.

Even if you didn't want to stir the pot, a casual remark to your cousin that you saw this guy with a different woman that wasn't his wife could have been a sufficient heads-up.
posted by Everydayville at 10:56 AM on January 15, 2015 [5 favorites]

I think you need to unpack the "male solidarity" thing a little. You said "in this country a man doesn't rat on another on things like infidelity." There are three things here you need to think more deeply about.

A) Why doesn't a man rat on another man? What would be wrong with it? Is that cheating is only technically against the rules but the belief is that really it's ok? That's probably not all of it because if it were then one wouldn't "rat" on cheating women either. Is it because of a belief that even if it's hurtful, the pain of the person being hurt is less valuable than the pleasure or enjoyment of the person doing the cheating? Figure out exactly why in that culture a man doesn't "rat" on another man.

B) Once you've done that, ask yourself if you subscribe to that belief. Who cares if the culture does. You are an individual who gets to think your own thoughts and make your own decisions. Do not blame the fact that other people believe X for your doing Y. If you believe that men are somehow entitled to cheat because their desire for whatever they get out of that is more important than the hurt and damage they cause, then own it. Say that. Say it to your cousin so she knows what she's dealing with and can get on with her life and make friends who value her life and her feelings. If you don't believe that, then what difference does it make that people around you do?

C) Finally, this idea of "ratting." If you had told her then it would not have been about him. That is, the point wasn't to give damaging information about him, it was to give her information useful in building her life. I'm reminded of some sitcom parent (maybe 7th Heaven -- yes, I'm embarrassed if it was 7th Heaven) saying to some kid that it's only "tattling" and not allowed if the point is to get someone in trouble. If the point is to help someone, then it's not tattling and it's the right thing to do. The point of telling, had you chosen to do that would have been to help your cousin and friend. It's only "ratting" if you empathize with him. Try putting yourself in her place instead of his.

Finally, I agree that there would have been a reasonable-people-disagree case for not telling her. HOwever, it's too late to pretend "I wasn't sure" was your motive for not telling. Even if that were one of your reasons (and it's suspicious that you only brought it up as a reason after being piled on), if your other two reasons held, then you wouldn't have told even had you walked in on them fucking, right? Had you walked in on that he would still be male, you would still live in a culture where men don't "rat" on each other, and they would still not be married. Sounds like you wouldn't have told regardless.

So, if you don't believe the underlying assumptions that Part A lead you to, then apologize and stop letting those assumptions influence your behaviour. If you do believe those things then tell her flat out, she deserves to know who her friends are.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:05 AM on January 15, 2015 [4 favorites]

Not to pile on, but I agree with everyone upthread who is saying that choosing "male solidarity" over a close relationship with a friend/family member is a shitty thing to do regardless of what country you reside. I can see you not volunteering the information, since what you saw was ambiguous at best, but your cousin asked you "if anything interesting happened." You simply could have said something like, "Yes, I saw him. I don't know how interesting this is or if it means anything, but he was chatting with a young woman. She could have just been a work colleague or something though, so I wouldn't go jumping to any conclusions." Then let her handle it from there.

As for repairing your relationship with your cousin, yes, apologize & say you didn't realize how significant it was. Promise that in the future, you'll be more aware and candid (and actually do that). For the love of God, please do not mention any of that "male solidarity" business. It doesn't help your case or ease her hurt feelings.
posted by katemcd at 11:09 AM on January 15, 2015 [1 favorite]

The 'male solidarity' comment is stupid and misogynistic. Now you know. Please don't abide by this anymore.

Frankly, you have two things here that skirt the ethics issues, and your cousin is slightly misguided.

1. He is a married man. If she knows he is married, she already knows he is a cheater. It seems hypocritical to be miffed that the man she's cheating with is cheating on her. Duh!

2. So he's in a bar with another woman. How are you supposed to know who she is and what he's doing with her. Could be a customer, a relative or some other innocuous connection. Oddly enough, my mind doesn't rush to INFIDELITY when I see a man in a relationship out with another woman.

Where you screwed up: You didn't cop to seeing him out when you went to the bar. In the future, "Yeah, I saw Joe at the club the other night." You don't have to say, "all hugged up with a beautiful woman." But never overtly lie and say you didn't see someone when you know you did.

What to do now: Apologize to your cousin. "Rosie, I'm sorry I didn't mention seeing Joe at the club the other night. I saw him with a woman and honestly it never occurred to me that he was cheating with her. When I saw them it seemed innocent to me. I'm so used to the stupid bro-code that I lied about seeing him there though. Trust me, I understand now that I should always be truthful with you. I have to be honest, I'm shocked that you were okay with dating a married man. In the future, I'll say something to you once I hear about it because if he'll do it with you, he'll do it to you. You deserve better. You're a wonderful woman and you deserve a man who will marry you and start a family with you. Don't settle for anything less."

I think this can be salvaged, but cherish all people equally, and certainly put family members above random cheating assholes in your regard.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:12 AM on January 15, 2015 [9 favorites]

"I didn't see the point in stirring up trouble when I had no evidence."

That's a legit reason not to get involved, and should be the crux of your apology to your cousin. When I see a male acquaintance out with a woman who is not his partner, I don't assume romance unless demonstrated. I might not have even bothered to relate it when asked if anything interesting happened; unless there was romance, nothing interesting really did happen unless I hung out with them or something.

But you abused your cousin's trust, and you need to apologize for that — and you gave dishonorable reasons for doing so, which you should probably examine separately. And in pretty much every country, safeguarding the interests of your family comes above etiquette obligations to strangers or even the nebulous "male solidarity."
posted by klangklangston at 11:24 AM on January 15, 2015 [5 favorites]

I've been reading OP's past posts and comments as well (including the deleted one) and... I'm at a loss. OP is coming from a philosophy and personal history where cheating is perfectly acceptable, so of course it's going to be hard for OP to grasp why the cousin and others here are reacting this way.


I've read OP's past posts and comments too. I'm also at a loss. I question OP's description of his culture in light of his cousin's reaction and wonder if OP is sincerely expecting meaningful advice from AskMe. I think OP's history is especially relevant to this AskMe.

OP, according to your posts and comments, you live in a French-speaking African country. You describe yourself as a gay man who dates and has sex with other men. In this post you mention your wife. This seems to be acceptable according to your description of your culture which is one in which "primary relationships are [not] at any risk of collapsing because of the affair and finally, in any case marriages don't break here because one partner is cheating. Also, being gay is not an issue" (your words).

But if, as you say, affairs don't jeopardize relationships and marriages don't break because one partner is cheating, then why is your cousin upset? Something is not adding up.

And if your culture is the way you describe, why would you post this question to the AskMe audience when surely these drastic cultural differences would render any advice you might receive here meaningless?
posted by Majorita at 11:29 AM on January 15, 2015 [41 favorites]

As a data point, OP, I want to point out that I immediately recognised this post as yours, before checking the username, based on your posting history. I say that not to pile on but because it seems that all your questions here are based on some odd assumptions about morality that I suggest are worth questioning:

-- "my culture says x is fine" is an open and shut answer to "should I do x", without more. Many people think that "my culture says x" is only a starting point for determining whether doing x is the right thing for them personally to do. There is room to interrogate /why/ that belief exists, whether it coheres with one's own deep commitments, feelings, and intuitions (eg about how one would like to be treated). I suspect there may be elements in what you already believe about morality, in terms of how you think it acceptable to act, that aren't 100% on board with the moral and cultural tradition you are speaking of. For example, it's unlikely that a very gender-normative society would be down with men falling in love with other men and committing to them (even if a degree of casual homosexuality is accepted). It is important to decide if you are picking and choosing here, taking the bits of the moral tradition that make your life easier and ditching the bits that would constrain you.

-- Relatedly, "Is there a fixed abstract rule that stops me doing x?" is the only question to ask about whether to do x. Even if there is no rule, x might be something you shouldn't do in the particularities of your own situation and your relationships. For example, suppose it's true that your cousin is just over-sensitive and most women in your culture would understand that you were allowed to hide this information. But so what? It's your cousin you want the relationship with (or not?), so who cares about how random abstract women or men would respond? The question isn't necessarily "am I allowed?", it might be "will doing this make that particular person unhappy/happy in a way that would make me unhappy/happy? Would it damage our relationship? Is it worth what I would lose or gain?"

I'm from the UK and from a very traditional immigrant background. I understand that Western norms sometimes don't make room for or sense of the traditional norms of a different culture. But it doesn't look to me like that's what's going on here because your statement of what your culture demands seems so superficial and negative (I get to do x, which is shocking to Western sensibilities, there's no "because"). I somehow doubt you are pitting the best of your culture's moral tradition against Western (?) platitudes like "honesty is good" and "hurting people is bad".
posted by Aravis76 at 11:56 AM on January 15, 2015 [14 favorites]

1. He is a married man. If she knows he is married, she already knows he is a cheater. It seems hypocritical to be miffed that the man she's cheating with is cheating on her. Duh!

He's married but estranged from his family. I don't think it's the same type of situation? (Maybe it is? Not sure from the question.)
posted by stoneandstar at 12:17 PM on January 15, 2015 [1 favorite]

It's possible, of course, that he deceived the cousin as to the nature of his relationship with his wife; pretending to be separated, for example, when it would be news to his wife. The dude, at a minimum, has proved not to be trustworthy. And all that that implies.

OP, if your cousin has been having sex with this guy, she owes it to herself to get checked out for sexually transmitted diseases. That means she is going to have to undergo an embarrassing and possibly expensive process. He may well have been cheating on her before you saw anything, so I won't say it's your fault, but what if your warning her could have saved her that hassle? Please ask yourself, is the male solidarity you spoke of worth that price?
posted by Gelatin at 12:42 PM on January 15, 2015

Best answer: Ouch! Seems like a bloke in a relationship is not able to speak to a woman, or have a drink with her, without it being cheating ... really?

Get a grip people. The OP may have made his choice for reasons many of us disagree with, but HE DID NOT KNOW (then) that this bloke was cheating his cousin. Is he supposed to report to his cousin every time he sees this man talking to a woman? If/when he has solid grounds for believing that cheating is happening, THEN he should say something to his cousin.
posted by GeeEmm at 12:59 PM on January 15, 2015 [2 favorites]

I don't think that's a fair summary of the comments in this tread. The OP said the dude "seemed very friendly" with the woman in question, whatever that means, but more to the point he said he would not have told his cousin even if he had known the guy was having an affair. And on top of that he lied by omission about even having seen the dude in the bar.
posted by Gelatin at 1:10 PM on January 15, 2015 [11 favorites]

She is hurt and probably expects me to apologise about not-having-her-best-interest-at-heart but I don't want to.... Question is: how would you handle this?

I would apologize even though I didn't want to.
posted by John Cohen at 3:30 PM on January 15, 2015 [2 favorites]

OK, I think "male solidarity" is nonsense, and you definitely owe loyalty to your female friends, in general.

With that said, if I read this right, your cousin is knowingly dating a married man? Who has kids? If she's already cheating with him, I'm perplexed as to why she would believe either that the BF has a sacred duty of fidelity to this already infidelity-based relationship, or that anyone else is obligated to police that fidelity. Cheaters gonna cheat.
posted by Bardolph at 4:08 PM on January 15, 2015 [2 favorites]

The fact that you felt more loyalty to strangers of some gender than to someone who is literally FAMILY makes you seem a little nuts. My family is from a male dominating culture, but not even there does so called "male solidarity" trump solidarity to a member of one's own family. She's absolutely right to be hurt by your actions here.
posted by rancher at 5:55 PM on January 15, 2015 [8 favorites]

Okay, so I think everyone else has reiterated about how "male solidarity" for a random douche over your friend/family member is wrong. I do concur that just seeing him with a woman in a bar might be ambiguous enough to not say anything, depending on how "friendly" they were being (if groping was involved, that's over the line). A fair amount of folks who have said they saw someone cheating have been rewarded by their friend telling them off and sticking with the cheater because "I luuuuv him," so that's why whether or not to tell is a debatable question. It may not work and it may only make things worse for the friendship. It's a horrible position to be in because you're "wrong" either way.

But now that the worst has already happened, I'd suggest asking her, "So, if I see your boyfriend with another woman, do you want me to tell you or not?" Usually it's not a question anyone can ask directly, but in this case, it might make the "tell or not" dilemma easier if you know what she wants directly.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:33 PM on January 15, 2015

a/ I’m quite positive that my cousin knows that her boyfriend is married

b/ I just ran into the boyfriend talking to a woman at a bar, and I have no proof he was indeed cheating on my cousin. I didn't see the point in stirring up trouble when I had no evidence

IMO, these are two valid reasons for minding your own business.

Many moons ago, my little brother called me and it came out that my oldest brother's wife told him they were having an affair, and he didn't know how to handle that info. My advice was to keep his mouth shut and stop having heart-to-heart talks with the SIL. I didn't tell my oldest brother (for one thing, it was second hand news, for another, the SIL was the biggest liar and drama queen walking, and I knew OB loved the wench.) Turns out LB kept yakking with her, and during the divorce it came out that I had been told about the affair. My oldest brother was pissed, said some ugly things, and refused to talk to me until the day he died. It sucked. Does it hurt? Yes. Was I sick about it when YB told me about her? Yes. Would I do the same thing again? Yes. Only thing I'd do different is reach out like crazy to him, especially after the divorce happened.

Telling someone they're being cheated on is a veritable shit storm waiting to happen. Unless you walk in and they're in bed together, you don't know for sure what's going on. Unless you happen to have a camera and take a picture, there's no actual proof. There is no way I'd expect my sibs or kids to be the bearer of that kind of tale, unless they were upfront enough to sit down in front of both my husband and I to talk about it. And that's not their responsibility anyway. My relationship is my responsibility.

And double what Bardolph said about Cheaters gonna cheat.


That said:

Wow, did you ever fuck up by bringing up this stupid idea of "male solidarity."

Yeah. That's about the shittist excuse there is, not to mention your posting history. But that's your bizness, not mine.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:39 PM on January 15, 2015

I was pretty confused about what your question even was after your update. But we have seen this before in your questions, specially in your last deleted post. Your update clarifies that the stated question isn't actually your question. I think your question again is "cheating: AMIRITE?"

And the answer is still the same: this isn't BragFilter.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 7:51 PM on January 15, 2015 [4 favorites]

She asked if anything interesting happened. Seeing somebody your cousin is dating, and not even speaking to them, doesn't qualify as "interesting".

Should you apologize? Of course. Somebody's upset and it's just the right thing to do. Do you have to cop to anything? Of course not, you didn't do anything wrong.

"I'm sorry I didn't mention it, I would have if I'd known how important that was to you. I saw he was there, we didn't even say hi, I didn't really think about it."
posted by colin_l at 9:43 PM on January 15, 2015 [2 favorites]