2008 Sienna Won't Start, Sometimes
January 4, 2015 5:31 PM Subscribe
My 2008 Toyota Sienna has had difficulty starting for 3 years now. The catch: Every time I take it to a mechanic, it works fine for them.
So far three mechanics have sent me home (no charge fortunately) after they couldn't replicate the starting problem. The last time, I got in the car at the mechanic's lot and it wouldn't start until the mechanic walked around the corner. Infuriating!
What I know:
The battery has been tested and they say it's fine.
This gets worst during the winter.
At worst I get full electricity (raise & lower windows) but the engine doesn't turn over, just a single clicking sound when I turn the key all the way, then another click when I turn it back off. I can here a humming sound from the back of the car.
When the car is sorta not feeling like starting, it will make me wait 2 to 20 minutes and finally will start after turning over a bunch, the rin-nin-nin-nin-nin-vroom sound.
I can keep the problem at bay by running the car for 10 minutes every few hours, and it's usually OK with me sleeping through the night and starts fine in the morning if I warmed it up at about 10:30 p.m.
Any ideas? How can I finally get this fixed? Thank you.
So far three mechanics have sent me home (no charge fortunately) after they couldn't replicate the starting problem. The last time, I got in the car at the mechanic's lot and it wouldn't start until the mechanic walked around the corner. Infuriating!
What I know:
The battery has been tested and they say it's fine.
This gets worst during the winter.
At worst I get full electricity (raise & lower windows) but the engine doesn't turn over, just a single clicking sound when I turn the key all the way, then another click when I turn it back off. I can here a humming sound from the back of the car.
When the car is sorta not feeling like starting, it will make me wait 2 to 20 minutes and finally will start after turning over a bunch, the rin-nin-nin-nin-nin-vroom sound.
I can keep the problem at bay by running the car for 10 minutes every few hours, and it's usually OK with me sleeping through the night and starts fine in the morning if I warmed it up at about 10:30 p.m.
Any ideas? How can I finally get this fixed? Thank you.
Best answer: We had a misfire that showed up on cold(ish) starts but went away after a day sitting in the sun waiting for the mechanic to look at it. So: any chance you can leave the car in the lot overnight so you can try and replicate the starting problems with the mechanics first thing in the morning?
posted by holgate at 5:37 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by holgate at 5:37 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I suspect you're not turning the key fully to the right when you start the car. You're turning it far enough for the starter motor to partially engage, but then it is changing back and forth from starting the engine to the starter motor being turned off because the key is just between the "on" and "start" positions.
In this particular scenario, the reason the car works inconsistently is that the engine has been warmed by previous attempts, causing it to start quicker on subsequent attempts.
For what it's worth, I've seen this with two people for two completely different reasons.
posted by saeculorum at 5:39 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
In this particular scenario, the reason the car works inconsistently is that the engine has been warmed by previous attempts, causing it to start quicker on subsequent attempts.
For what it's worth, I've seen this with two people for two completely different reasons.
posted by saeculorum at 5:39 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am not a mechanic, but am chiming in to say the same as those above. And to add, reading your story reminded me of the Vanilla Ice Cream problem (only perhaps inverted).
posted by zyxwvut at 5:41 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by zyxwvut at 5:41 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I had a problem like this with my minivan-- turned out to be a verrry small short in the ignition system (the part that's in the steering column) It was infuriating because it wouldn't "do it" for the mechanic but would sometimes be fine and sometimes not.... It took a very expensive electric diagnostic going-over to find it, but that on top of MONTHS of taking it to the mechanic and them not finding it..
posted by The otter lady at 5:44 PM on January 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by The otter lady at 5:44 PM on January 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
A thread on CarTalk.com describes similar symptoms from a failing starter:
I don't know what was broken on the starter and that it was much more un-reliable when it was cold and reacted faster when the car was run for a while and at operating temp. Being warmed up didn't stop it from malfunctioning, it just reduced the malfunctions.
posted by jon1270 at 6:19 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't know what was broken on the starter and that it was much more un-reliable when it was cold and reacted faster when the car was run for a while and at operating temp. Being warmed up didn't stop it from malfunctioning, it just reduced the malfunctions.
posted by jon1270 at 6:19 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I also have a Sienna of that vintage, and have had some trouble with starting recently in cold weather. I was scheduled to take it in so it would be sitting in their parking lot overnight, but then it warmed up here to 60 degrees! But, my advice would be to see if you can drop the van off at night, too. I will be rescheduling when it gets cold here and I find out anything useful I will post it to this thread. Maybe it is an issue with the starter's age, I wonder if it will turn out to be recall worthy.
posted by dawg-proud at 6:52 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by dawg-proud at 6:52 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
A co worker's GF had that car with that same problem, and they told her it was a problem with the starter disengaging because the steering wheel was "aligned incorrectly". She fixed it by moving the wheel a couple times before she started it.
Good luck, move that wheel. YMMV.
posted by Sphinx at 9:09 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Good luck, move that wheel. YMMV.
posted by Sphinx at 9:09 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Your car battery's ability to turn you starter is a factor of two things: voltage and current. As your battery gets older, it will slowly lose its ability to charge to a maximum voltage and will provide less available current at the required voltage.
Your starter needs a minimum current to be able to turn fast enough to start your car. As your starter gets older, it gets less efficient. Parts get worn, you may get a bit of a short, and there may be rust or residue built up in places causing physical resistance. Overtime, your starter will need more current to turn over, especially if it is cold.
Between your battery and starter there is a circuit that may contain cables, connectors, fuses, relays, etc. Each component of the circuit is a potential leak of the current, causing less current to get from the battery to the starter.
Your car is in a magical place where all three components are probably "fine" and work together under normal conditions, but the cold or some other factor is not letting the starter get the current it needs to start.
Have you asked about this at an actual Toyota dealership? Sometimes the dealerships have maintenance memos from the factory for things like this if it is a know problem like the steering wheel alignment Sphinx mentioned..
The most obvious thing to try yourself would be to get a new starter. The starter on my first car was "fine" and didn't need to be replaced, but I had to crawl under the car and arc a screwdriver between the two poles to start it. New starter worked perfectly. It might not be that expensive, although it may not solve the problem.
The easiest thing to try would be to increase the amperage at the battery. You could do this by jumping from another car, using one of those jump starter self contained battery packs, or using a plug in charger with "starting amps." I assume after 3 years you have tried this a few times, but you did not mention if it starts right away when jumped. I had a car that the starter would seize up on if it sat for more than three weeks. You would need to boost it to turn the starter over, but once it broke free the regular battery was plenty to start it. If this helps you could try a new battery or keep a jump starter charged up.
The hard part to diagnose is if the problem is with the circuit in between the battery and starter. You could remove and clean the battery terminals and clamps with steal wool or a steal brush. I have seen this alone fix similar problems. Be careful hooking it back up. You could do similar with the starter and fuse if there is one, but this is probably not a good idea if you are not familiar with them. You could also look at the cables to the battery and starter to see if they look cracked or look "swollen." This might be a sign of moisture in the wires.
Good luck.
posted by Yorrick at 10:45 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Your starter needs a minimum current to be able to turn fast enough to start your car. As your starter gets older, it gets less efficient. Parts get worn, you may get a bit of a short, and there may be rust or residue built up in places causing physical resistance. Overtime, your starter will need more current to turn over, especially if it is cold.
Between your battery and starter there is a circuit that may contain cables, connectors, fuses, relays, etc. Each component of the circuit is a potential leak of the current, causing less current to get from the battery to the starter.
Your car is in a magical place where all three components are probably "fine" and work together under normal conditions, but the cold or some other factor is not letting the starter get the current it needs to start.
Have you asked about this at an actual Toyota dealership? Sometimes the dealerships have maintenance memos from the factory for things like this if it is a know problem like the steering wheel alignment Sphinx mentioned..
The most obvious thing to try yourself would be to get a new starter. The starter on my first car was "fine" and didn't need to be replaced, but I had to crawl under the car and arc a screwdriver between the two poles to start it. New starter worked perfectly. It might not be that expensive, although it may not solve the problem.
The easiest thing to try would be to increase the amperage at the battery. You could do this by jumping from another car, using one of those jump starter self contained battery packs, or using a plug in charger with "starting amps." I assume after 3 years you have tried this a few times, but you did not mention if it starts right away when jumped. I had a car that the starter would seize up on if it sat for more than three weeks. You would need to boost it to turn the starter over, but once it broke free the regular battery was plenty to start it. If this helps you could try a new battery or keep a jump starter charged up.
The hard part to diagnose is if the problem is with the circuit in between the battery and starter. You could remove and clean the battery terminals and clamps with steal wool or a steal brush. I have seen this alone fix similar problems. Be careful hooking it back up. You could do similar with the starter and fuse if there is one, but this is probably not a good idea if you are not familiar with them. You could also look at the cables to the battery and starter to see if they look cracked or look "swollen." This might be a sign of moisture in the wires.
Good luck.
posted by Yorrick at 10:45 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
This happened with my 2003 Saturn for YEARS (it happened unpredictably but mostly in cold, damp weather and I had to wait 9-11 minutes to be able to restart it) and it turned out to be a short in the security system that was hooked into the ignition. Unfortunately I don't have more technical jargon for it. Replacing the starter did NOT help (we tried that when it first happened), but replacing the security system did. I had to have my keys reprogrammed.
I took it to the shop four times, and they couldn't reproduce it. I finally got an answer when I couldn't start it after a routine oil change. I ran into the shop and dragged the mechanic back out by his hand. We were both giddy.
Tell them to check your security system.
posted by kimberussell at 3:12 AM on January 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
I took it to the shop four times, and they couldn't reproduce it. I finally got an answer when I couldn't start it after a routine oil change. I ran into the shop and dragged the mechanic back out by his hand. We were both giddy.
Tell them to check your security system.
posted by kimberussell at 3:12 AM on January 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
So the starter is a really cool piece of tech, that uses an insane amount of electricity to do a mechanically simple but physically difficult task, which is to convert electrical energy to physical motion in a direct gear, and then use the torque of that spin to overcome the compression of the engine to make it start running. It's sort of a brute force method.
So, remember, that in everything but water, cold weather makes stuff contract. That includes plastic and metal. It's entirely likely that there's a bad or even just corroded junction anywhere between the battery, the ignition, and the starter. Once the vehicle is warm, things expand, connections are made stronger and the problem disappears.
Also, in MOST starters afaik, there are little centrifugal wings that pop out when you engage the starter, and those are what physically turn the pulley. Once you stop engaging it, they retract and the pulley spins freely. It's pretty common that those wings get broken or worn. It's ALSO true that that MOST engines start and stop in the same place MOST of the time, so it's possible for a single section of teeth to get worn on the gear, and you've gotta spin the starter to get it into a place with more solid hook-up on the teeth of the gear.
The redneck check for starter damage itself is, as we like to say, direct application of kinetic energy. That is, whack the hell out of the starter with a wrench or hammer, just maybe twice or three times, the first time it doesn't start. If it then starts, you need either a starter rebuild or a new starter, almost certainly a better idea to go with a new starter.
I am personally gonna guess that you have a solenoid issue, again that's a common wear place in my limited experience. Lotsa juice flowing through a small place. In the old days, we'd just short the solenoid with a large screwdriver, and vroom away we'd go. These days, not so easy. The test there, I believe, is to test AMPS at the starter when you turn the key. Difficult and potentially dangerous, it's really a LOT of juice, and it requires knowing how many amps your starter is supposed to have.
You may consider checking out alldatadiy.com for full shop guides/instructions/everything for your vehicle. Fantastic coupon code here. For $13 for three years you can at least answer your own questions. It's also a great way to get part numbers, but really it shows you step by step procedures for just about anything you'd like to do. I bought it for my 99 volvo last year and it's already saved me hundreds.
posted by TomMelee at 5:57 AM on January 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
So, remember, that in everything but water, cold weather makes stuff contract. That includes plastic and metal. It's entirely likely that there's a bad or even just corroded junction anywhere between the battery, the ignition, and the starter. Once the vehicle is warm, things expand, connections are made stronger and the problem disappears.
Also, in MOST starters afaik, there are little centrifugal wings that pop out when you engage the starter, and those are what physically turn the pulley. Once you stop engaging it, they retract and the pulley spins freely. It's pretty common that those wings get broken or worn. It's ALSO true that that MOST engines start and stop in the same place MOST of the time, so it's possible for a single section of teeth to get worn on the gear, and you've gotta spin the starter to get it into a place with more solid hook-up on the teeth of the gear.
The redneck check for starter damage itself is, as we like to say, direct application of kinetic energy. That is, whack the hell out of the starter with a wrench or hammer, just maybe twice or three times, the first time it doesn't start. If it then starts, you need either a starter rebuild or a new starter, almost certainly a better idea to go with a new starter.
I am personally gonna guess that you have a solenoid issue, again that's a common wear place in my limited experience. Lotsa juice flowing through a small place. In the old days, we'd just short the solenoid with a large screwdriver, and vroom away we'd go. These days, not so easy. The test there, I believe, is to test AMPS at the starter when you turn the key. Difficult and potentially dangerous, it's really a LOT of juice, and it requires knowing how many amps your starter is supposed to have.
You may consider checking out alldatadiy.com for full shop guides/instructions/everything for your vehicle. Fantastic coupon code here. For $13 for three years you can at least answer your own questions. It's also a great way to get part numbers, but really it shows you step by step procedures for just about anything you'd like to do. I bought it for my 99 volvo last year and it's already saved me hundreds.
posted by TomMelee at 5:57 AM on January 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks everybody. I let the shop keep the car overnight and they narrowed it down to the starter. They said they basically made a simple circuit with the battery & starter and couldn't get it working until they hit the starter with a screwdriver. They also said they weren't sure why the cold would make a difference.
posted by circular at 3:01 PM on January 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by circular at 3:01 PM on January 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Whacking with a screwdriver = direct application of kinetic energy! Glad you got it sorted out.
posted by TomMelee at 3:26 PM on January 6, 2015
posted by TomMelee at 3:26 PM on January 6, 2015
Response by poster: All fixed now with the starter replacement! Thanks again.
posted by circular at 5:33 PM on January 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by circular at 5:33 PM on January 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
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