Doggy

November 16, 2005 7:07 AM

Last night our adopted dog snapped her teeth at the baby. Baby is 20 months old - the dog had just curled up on the couch, wasn't asleep, the baby walked by and our dog lunged out her neck, snarled, and snapped her teeth twice (right on level with our babys face).

My husband immediately yelled at the dog and put her outside for the night. He says this is grounds for taking her back to the shelter, that we shouldn't take any chances that she'll bite one of us (we have 3 children).

She had spent most of her life, 6 or 7 years, at the shelter and one reason we decided on adopting her was that she didn't seem bothered by the attention of our lively children. She's been a good girl till now, still a little skittish with us (often moves away when we reach from a standing position to pet her, but returns), but has seemed to be adjusting to family life quite well and is generally pretty loving.

Is there any hope for her? Any training that will help? Or is my husband right? We've had her for about 6 months now. The shelter people had been arguing with each other about whether to have her put to sleep or not and I really don't want that for her, but I also don't want my children attacked.

She's an unknown mixed breed, but not one of the known agressive breeds. She has seizures some times, which is why I think it took so long for her to be adopted.

posted by LadyBonita to pets & animals (49 comments total)

My husband...says this is grounds for taking her back to the shelter... Is there any hope for her? ... Or is my husband right?

Of course there's hope. And your husband is absolutely right. You're insane.

You've got a 20-month-old baby, and you're going to hang your hat on "hope"?

It's a dog.
posted by cribcage at 7:16 AM on November 16, 2005

The dog didn't actually bite the baby or carry through with any real attack. Dogs get startled once in a while. I think getting rid of the dog is overreacting.
posted by thirteenkiller at 7:18 AM on November 16, 2005

No one in this thread can give you a conclusive "keep it"... anyone with a strong opinion one way or another will say "send it back."

A few people will also suggest alternate homes for the dog... none of which will be feasable for your current situation. (you would've thought of them already)

Summarized the thread for you right there... you had to know the answers you were going to get before you even asked this question, right?
posted by cadastral at 7:20 AM on November 16, 2005

Get a cat. Babies should attack pets, not the other way around.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 7:20 AM on November 16, 2005

Get rid of the dog.
posted by glenwood at 7:22 AM on November 16, 2005

Contact a licensed animal behaviorist and try to consult with them. Monitor the dog and baby extremely closely for now.
posted by By The Grace of God at 7:24 AM on November 16, 2005

You've had the dog for six months, and this is the first and only sign of actual aggression you've seen? It might be a fluke.

Of course, you don't want to take the chance that your baby could get hurt, so maybe setting up a child gate or some similar barrier, so that the dog doesn't have access to the child, would be a temporary solution while you look into training?
posted by Gator at 7:27 AM on November 16, 2005

That is a bad, bad, bad situation. Having been around a lot of dogs, I feel that once the dog has transgressed into snapping or baring fangs, then that dog cannot be trusted. The dog is trying to assert dominance and will keep doing so, and any kind of physical provocation (toddlers like to poke, prod, and climb on animals) will probably result in a bite. I don't feel that any correction can solve this problem; it will only come when the kid is old enough to be confident and assert his authority.

I've been there -- I have a 22-month old son, and awhile back we made the decision to give our sheepdog to my grandmother (at least for the long-term). In the end, the kid's safety trumps the dog's.
posted by rolypolyman at 7:29 AM on November 16, 2005

I had this same problem. Got old dog, rescue dog, great dog. Started biting and getting cranky with age just as baby reached 8 months old. We put dog to sleep. It's sad, but your kids are more important than the dog. You will NEVER forgive yourslef if you keep the dog and it attacks your kids. Not. worth. it.
posted by aacheson at 7:30 AM on November 16, 2005

On the slightly less cynical note than cribcage, have you spoken to your vet? Before doing anything that might sign the dog's death warrant, why not talk to your vet and see what s/he recommends. There are ways to improve the dog's comfort level in your home and that's almost certainly the solution to preventing (to the extent possible) situations like what happened with your daughter.

I'm wondering if your daughter didn't just startle the dog as she was on the verge of sleep, causing a reaction that was more intense than normal. This morning, I accidentally nudged my dog (who has a shelter history much like your own) in his arthritic hip (we were both on the bed) and he rocketed upright and snarled (though he didn't snap) clearly quite upset.

A dog with a history of confinement and/or abuse will be more easily startled in some situations, and that will only abate when they're completely comfortable with their surroundings which can take longer than six months.

There's nothing wrong with "hope" when you're talking about a living being that's relying upon you for warmth, comfort and care. The dog is doing what's instinctual, the answer is to help her to realize that she's not in a situation where she needs to be constantly on guard, and there's no reason not to be hopeful that such a task can be accomplished, people do it every day.
posted by Dreama at 7:32 AM on November 16, 2005

Based on extensive viewing of Animal Planet's Animal Precinct and their other ASPCA/Humane Society police shows, the ASPCA will not adopt out a pet if it shows the slightest signs of being aggressive. For example, when they bring in neglected or abused animals they often will use a fake human arm to pet the dog, touch it's food bowl while it's eating, poke it while it is sleeping, etc, and if the dog reacts in any way aggressively or negatively (growling, defensive stance, snapping, hackles up, rigidity, etc) they will not adopt out the dog. I've seen them reject a dog for adoption solely on a dog assuming a rigid pose while being petted.

What I'm getting at here is that indeed you should bring the dog back to the shelter. If the ASPCA itself has very stringent guidelines on what they will do, then bringing the dog back and seeking THEIR opinion is the best coures of action. As experts, they will most likely err on the side of caution and recommend removing the dog from an environment with children. I feel that with a baby around it is better to be safe than sorry, and having the ASPCA make the that recommendation may remove some of the pain and guilt from your own decision. Besides, this doesn't necessarily mean the demise of the dog. They may simply re-adopt out to people who do not have children and specifically warn off people who do.
posted by spicynuts at 7:33 AM on November 16, 2005

When I read the front page of your post my first thought was "Could the dog be epileptic?". And sure enough, you said it had seizures. The dog may well have been having a seizure immediately before the baby walked by (the sit and stare kind of seizure obviously, since you would have noticed the convulsing kind). Dogs coming out of seizures are confused and consequently aggressive.

Is the dog on phenobarb or anything else to control the seizures? If not, one option is to get her on phenobarb if you decide to keep her (it will zonk her out for the first week or two).

You may not decide to keep her and that's a respectable and understandable decision that no one will fault you for, even if the dog gets put down as a result. I don't think it's the only reasonable decision though. I had an epileptic dog...she bit people including me and including children (though she bit people long before she was epileptic so it's not the same thing).

Anyway, when she bit she would snap and retreat immediately. One snap, that was it. It sucked, but frankly she was no danger because a quick snap is no worse an injury than a scaped knee (assuming all relevant shots are in order). Biting is very different from mauling.

I think the dog got startled, didn't bite, no history of biting, and didn't seem to be going to "attack" so much as snap. I don't think you have to give up this dog. The probability of startling may well be related to the dog's epilepsy. Get the eplilepsy under control. Obviously monitor the dog and baby closely (don't leave them alone together).

If you decide you don't want to keep the dog, I would put her up on petfinder and keep her until somebody takes her. I don't think there is any huge immediate danger that requires you to drop the dog back off at the shelter immediately.

(Oh...and and if you can't control the epilepsy, you might consider finding a new home for the dog regardless of the biting issue...Watching your dog have a seizure is heartbreaking and for a small child might well be terrifying. Even if the dog never bits again, do you want to put your small child through that?)
posted by duck at 7:40 AM on November 16, 2005

You could keep the dog outside permanently, and get another dog to stay with him. That way he can assert dominance over another dog, instead of your children.
posted by cleverusername at 7:41 AM on November 16, 2005

Summarized the thread for you right there... you had to know the answers you were going to get before you even asked this question, right?
posted by cadastral

Well no, of course I didn't know the answers or I wouldn't have asked. My husband has never owned a family dog (only outside working dogs) and I haven't had one since childhood, 30 years ago. I don't know what is hopefull, or hopeless, when it comes to adopted pets. I'm just plain not familiar with anything to do with this situation OR I WOULD NOT HAVE ASKED.

To everyone else, thank you for your thoughts, insights and advice. As I am unknowledgable about the situation, and this is a difficult decision, I appreciate your opinions.
posted by LadyBonita at 7:47 AM on November 16, 2005

LadyBonita: Please get the epilepsy evaluated regardless of what you decide to do. Having the seizures under control will make your life easier and safer if you decide to keep her and make her much easier for someone else to adopt if you decide not to.
posted by duck at 7:50 AM on November 16, 2005

LadyBonita - I asked a sort-of-related question a couple of weeks ago here.

We have two dogs, and I have concerns about both for different reasons. One of them is a very very sweet but skittish pound puppy who once randomly bit my uncle, totally unprovoked.

We took her to a behavioralist, who basically said "you can do some hardcore training with her to desensitize her and try to generally calm her down but there can never be a guarantee that she will not bite again." My wife and I struggled mightily about whether to keep her or give her up, but we knew that - as spicynuts said - a dog who has bitten will not be adopted out. So rather than send her to her death we have kept her and been super-super-super careful in monitoring her interactions with our kid. I'm still not sure this was the right decision.

It sounds like we have faced very similar problems; I understand that the dilemma is serious. If you want more information, my e-mail is in my profile.
posted by AgentRocket at 7:56 AM on November 16, 2005

Your dog is acting like a dog. This is how dogs act with puppies, which is what your child is to the dog. I understand your concern, but you did not witness aggression, it was animal communication. People with two dogs or a dog and cat see this all the time. It's "I see you coming this way, and you need to keep on moving. I've got my own doggy things going on right now. Don't bother me, kid." The dog certainly could have mis-aimed and bitten your child. I highly doubt that was the intention, but puppies have thick skin and can take it and young children don't as much. Your dog probably considers himself higher in the pack order than the little one, which is tricky territory to navigate with dogs, and so behaved appropriately for canine society.

But if the pound is the obvious choice for your family after this incident, you need to not have a dog. Little kids are hard on dogs, and you are expecting the impossible. Please do not get another dog until your child is old enough for you to make a commitment and actually keep it. Make sure you're done having any more kids.

You're going to tell the pound that the dog is child aggressive and they're going to put it down. Just own that. You made a mistake and the dog will pay. You may have extended his life some, and hopefully it was happy.

Dog's can't calmly explain that they're in a bad mood or don't feel well or are overstimulated and need some peace. Having dogs AND kids is something you need to be prepared to juggle, because dogs aren't little adults with tails. Dogs and kids have been living together for a very long time, and sometimes things happen and they're no big deal, and sometimes they happen and it's very bad. That needs to be a calculated choice you make - just like the decision to have a car, sharp knives, swingsets, skateboards, toy guns, and a thousand other things that can be dangerous to a kid. It sounds like you and your husband didn't work that out beforehand.

Some dogs do make it through numerous babies and toddlers with the patience of a saint, but that really is a remarkably patient dog and not something you can bank on. Breed doesn't mean anything; there is no actual aggressive or nonaggressive breed - any dog can be made aggressive, or have absolutely none even when provoked. Dogs with seizure disorders can be more dangerous than dogs without because they're confused coming out of a seizure, but you can't get a dog with a guarantee that it'll never get sick. You can't just keep getting dogs hoping one of them will be the jackpot. If nothing else, please don't teach your kids that animals are disposable. If your family isn't a good fit for a dog, just don't be a dog family.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:03 AM on November 16, 2005 [1 favorite has favorites]

Definitely check to see if it is health related first.

Every dog needs his/her own space, especially in a house full of kids. I would set up a crate or other comfortable spot with barriers to keep the kids out. Your dog might be more relaxed if he knew there was someplace in the house he could go to "get away from it all." Then the kids need to follow some ground rules--keep out of the dog's private space, stay away when he is eating, and never bug a sleeping dog.

Finally, dogs are pack animals, and you should be the leader of the pack. Even when it's accidental, you should handle stuff like this firmly. I use a growly voice with our dog and make him leave the room for a while whenever he gets snippy. He agonizes over even the most temporary exile.
posted by whatnot at 8:05 AM on November 16, 2005

I've had dogs and kids my whole adult life. As a dog lover and a mother, sadly, I would get rid of this dog even after just one incident (although I'd make every effort to place it in a no-kid environment, not send it back to a kill shelter). Dogs can see toddlers as aggressive -- the kid is at eye-level and therefore challenging, unpredictable, rough, grabby and, commanding your attention. If the dog has a tendency toward skittishness and that manifests as fear-biting, or showing dominance by growling, raised hackles, etc., it would require a major commitment and effort on your part, and the part of your entire family, to 'train' the aggressiveness out of the dog. And, it would take time.

I would definitely not take the chance. I have seen the effects of a serious dog bite on a little kid more than once (and not to be overly dramatic, but it's frequently the face or neck they go for because eye-level eye contact is often the aggression trigger ...) -- it's really awful, and will result in medical trauma, scarring, and a lifelong fear of dogs for the kid, which is entirely avoidable. I love dogs, but I agree: it's a dog, after all.
posted by thinkpiece at 8:07 AM on November 16, 2005

I would have to agree, the child will only get more curious. I've noticed when we have a baby around our dog, it'll try to mimic the catch behavior we play with it by actually throwing toys at the dog. Obviously we correct the toddler and show it for the dog to pick up, not at it. That and the usual toddler/dog cute behavior where the toddler will chase and grab the dog. Our dog will yelp and look helplessly at us and become defensive if pushed into a corner (keep in mind we're not just sitting here watching a toddler abuse a dog), but this is normal curious baby behavior. They want to play with the dog but don't know how to yet -- so if the dog, seizure or otherwise, is showing behavior it's not good. In my extensive experience with dogs they become worried, will run away or go to their master in such situations. In fact it seems dogs know that it's just a child, when I was a baby I tore handful of hairs out of golden retriever while trying to pet it (so I was told, I have no recollection). It just quietly sat there until someone intervened.

What I'm saying is that the baby is 8 months old and the rough play will only continue to worsen, and you can't keep the two separate constantly. The other advice is good, you're a new dog owner and don't know proper dog aggression. I'm not an expert but I've had dogs all my life and known people with dogs -- purely anecdotal but I'd get another dog.
posted by geoff. at 8:08 AM on November 16, 2005

In any event, if you do decide to give up the dog, please look into no-kill shelters in your area before taking her back to the shelter that will almost certainly put her down. And give that shelter a monetary donation while you're at it.
posted by Gator at 8:08 AM on November 16, 2005

Just an FYI - we adopted her from a No-kill shelter, the local Humane Society. I was told that they had been debating putting her to sleep because she had spent so many years there and adoption was seeming hopeless - some members felt it would be better to put another dog in her place.

I have put in a call to the shelter and to our vet. The vet previously felt there was no need for seizure medication but I will discuss that issue again.
posted by LadyBonita at 8:20 AM on November 16, 2005

I'm in the camp of get another dog, or no dog. Some dogs just aren't good with children. Fine for houses without them, or where the kids are older. Talk to a vet about breeds that will work best for your family. I also grew up around dogs and never, ever, did I have to worry about canine aggression. It's just not a good sign.

When you take it back, explain that the dog should not go to a house with kids. I would not recommend adopting any other dog with a history of abuse or abandonment. It just creates too many difficulties. Good luck.
posted by Salmonberry at 8:21 AM on November 16, 2005

Some dogs are wonderful with kids; loving, caring, protective, reliable and gentle. Your dog has spent 7 years living its own life in a shelter, and hasn't felt part of a pack for that long. To some degree, your dog probably has some "emotional issues" as a result. I wouldn't risk the safety or life of my child with a potentially emotionally troubled dog.

I grew up with dogs, and would happily have one (or two) around my two-year old if it was the right dog. Just remember that a dog attack can kill a child.
posted by 5MeoCMP at 8:43 AM on November 16, 2005

If there was a 1 in 100 chance or even a 1 in 500 chance that the dog would snap at the child and scar its face, take out an eye, or pierce its jugular vein, would you keep the dog? I don't know why you are even considering keeping the dog.
posted by alms at 8:56 AM on November 16, 2005

My wife and I struggled mightily about whether to keep her or give her up, but we knew that...a dog who has bitten will not be adopted out. So rather than send her to her death we have kept her and been super-super-super careful in monitoring her interactions with our kid. I'm still not sure this was the right decision.

Y'know, you seem like a decent person trying to do the right thing. I respect that; and I understand that people become attached to pets, and certain decisions can become difficult. We're chatting on a message board, and I have no idea who you are or how you rate as a parent.

But to my eyes, you just wrote, "A professional told us there could be no guarantee of safety for our child; but rather than choose certain death for an animal, we chose an acceptable risk for our child."

No one likes animal cruelty. But PETA is a national joke exactly because of attitudes like that, from people who seem incapable or unwilling to draw a line between animals and people.
posted by cribcage at 8:57 AM on November 16, 2005 [1 favorite has favorites]

When I was in middle school, I babysat for a family (two children- 24 months and 3 or 4, maybe) with a large dog (100 lbs). I made the mistake once of trying separate the dog from a large bowl of popcorn the older girl had given him, and the dog bit me on my right hand, putting it's tooth right through the middle of my hand. I was fine (although I still have a scar), and the woman felt awful (though I believe they kept the dog), but ever since then I've been wary of big dogs. In your case, I'm not certain that your dog is the dog to teach your children how to best take care of pets. They're young, mistakes will happen, and the damage could be great- not just the possibility of injury, but a lifelong fear of dogs. It must be such a hard decision, and I feel for your situation.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:07 AM on November 16, 2005 [1 favorite has favorites]

I would return the dog to the shelter with a full explanation (including that the dog DID NOT BITE the child - there is a huge difference between a snap and a bite in terms of intent - this dog has good bite inhibition and did not intend to actually bite, or she would have - there is a whole continuum between minor body-language warnings and full-out aggressive attack, it's not correct to state that a snap and a bite are equivalent, they are not, but this is definitely a situation that needs to change). Yes, it's possible this was seizure-related, it's also possible that the dog just doesn't like children, or that the child startled her out of sleep, or, or, or. I don't know that the reason matters. It's no secret that I love dogs, but I'm of the (unpopular) opinion that dogs and young children very rarely make a good combination unless they are in a home with adults who commit 100% to a "supervised or separated" policy (and "supervised" means you are in control of the dog and within a foot of it - a single bite can be devastatingly damaging or even fatal to a small child), I don't think dogs should be placed in a position where they might have to defend themselves against children, and I definitely don't think children should be placed in a position where they might get bitten.

ANY dog can bite, people who think otherwise are fooling themselves, most of us are pretty poor at reading dog body language, and don't recognize the warning signs before they happen (people who say "there was no warning" or "he's never shown any signs of doing this before" just didn't notice or recognize the signs, but there were almost guaranteed to be some). With time, effort and money you could probably work with this dog to the point where she is more comfortable around the child and less nervous (or "reactive") in general, she will always be the way she is, you can only hope to equip her with better coping skills, but she is nervous by nature will ALWAYS revert to being nervous given the right set of circumstances (and a nervous dog in a home with small children is unfair to everyone, unless you are an extremely dog-savvy and dedicated person).

The dog does not deserve to be banished to the outdoors, your child does not deserve to be at risk, and you do not deserve to live with the stress of managing this situation. Return the dog to the shelter.
posted by biscotti at 9:11 AM on November 16, 2005

And don't feel guilty about taking the dog to the shelter, either. These things happen. You aren't a bad person. Lyn Never's comment that you made a mistake and the dog will pay for it is wildly out of bounds. Don't listen to this sort of talk. Some things take priority. In this case, babies take priority over dogs.
posted by incessant at 9:24 AM on November 16, 2005

We adopted a dog from an elderly couple in our church (he died, she wasn't able to care for him). The day after we got him, he snapped at me and actually drew blood. I put him in the yard for several hours. At first I didn't think we would keep him, but he was very contrite when we finally let him back in. He stayed away from me for a couple days but eventually warmed up to me. We had him for three years but recently had him put down at age 16. That one incident was the only time he ever snapped at any of us in the family. He snapped at, but never actually bit, other people and dogs when on a leash a few times. Bottom line: he was fine.

However, our situation was a little different: two teenaged sons, my wife and me. If we had younger children, I'm not sure we would have kept him. I'm not sure which way I'm leaning here; just presenting my own experience.
posted by Doohickie at 9:31 AM on November 16, 2005

In case it needs to be said again (and it probably doesn't), the child comes first and the dog can no longer be trusted. The answer isn't that difficult, the what to do about it perhaps is.
posted by HuronBob at 9:44 AM on November 16, 2005

And as incessant says, don't feel guilty. You want to do the right thing, and your child is more important than the dog. Some dogs just don't mix well with kids (or rather, some dogs are more tolerant than others, but no dog should ever be left alone with young children). Returning her to the shelter (again, with a clear, written description of the incident, including what she did NOT do) is a far more humane choice than banishing her to the outdoors when she has been an indoor dog. Either that, or see about contacting a rescue group, but whatever you do, be very sure to include a written description of what happened, the dog doesn't belong in a home with children.
posted by biscotti at 9:52 AM on November 16, 2005

You should do what you're capable of being comfortable with. Neither the dog or the kid deserve to be in an environment where you and your husband are constantly freaked about their interaction.

Personally I'm opposed to always-outdoor dogs, you can make your own decisions or read the thread from a few days ago (if you have that kind of patience). I'm also of the mind that animals act like animals and you can't expect them to do any different. Expecting to be able to predict them like you can a machine or negotiate with them or make them reason like a person is doomed to failure and dissapointment. My feelings about your 'culpability' falls somewhere between incessant and never's positions - you should do what's best for all involved to the best of your ability and it's reasonable to prioritize a human over a dog. At the same time, you made a decision to bring a dog into a house with a then 14 month-old and you should take responsibility for that. If you need to remove the dog from your household you should be going the extra mile in time and/or money to make this story end well for it.

I'm sure I'm going to get the Crank of the Thread award with this one but let me throw it out there anyway - would it really be so awful if the dog did bite your kid in the future? Only you really know the personality of this animal but I'm presuming we're talking about an otherwise non-violent non-agressive medium to small dog, not a mauler. The danger presented to your kid as you have described it is from startling the animal or playing too rough and getting a bite, not getting savagely attacked because s/he was confused with prey. Being a healthy animal that's up to date on its shots means there's also not the danger of unknown disease. You say you don't want your children attacked, but that's doesn't seem to be the danger here - the danger is that the dog is going to be startled or antagonized by a lively child and respond with a snap, growl or, yes, bite.

So the risk is an injury, a risk presented in a multitude of other forms to a child who will soon be 2 years of age and as ambulatory and exploratory as any other child that age will be. And as capable of learning limits and do and don't behavior as any other child of that age. Maybe you can live with that risk, maybe you can't. But I think it's worth taking a second to figure out what the real likelyhood and facts of the risk are, not the worst-case fears and images of violent maulings that are probably unrealistic. Maybe this dog could do real damage or you can't live with even a minor incident, we can't know those things.

Finally, I don't think cadastral wasn't trying to demean your question but rather to point out that you're in emotionally charged territory and it's impossible for you to give enough information for people to really be able to give you a Correct answer. We don't even know if this is a tiny weinerdog or a full-sized collie. We also don't know your threshold for risk and you're going to get a suite of answers that are more likely than not to be personally biased and based on our personal thresholds. A Cooke and I are farther on one extreme, cribcage and generic on the other.
posted by phearlez at 9:58 AM on November 16, 2005

A friend of mine had her toddler bitten badly in the face by the family dog recently. Whacking the dog to make it let go, blood everywhere, hospital, stitches. Dog was completely gentle, but getting old and was apparently surprised by the kid. So even the most gentle dog can bite, badly, and scare the daylight out of the parents. (The kid, somewhat surprisingly, seems to have no lasting fear of the dog or any dogs and has made a full recovery.)

I really don't know about this dog though. How will you feel if a bite occurs later? Won't you feel like you had a warning and ignored it?
posted by jellicle at 10:02 AM on November 16, 2005

We had a temperamental dog when I was a kid and one day I did nothing but put my arm around him when he grabbed my face and wouldn't let go. I almost lost an eye and thirty five years later still have a scar on my cheek. I was lucky as it could have been much worse.

I would get rid of the dog and not take the chance.
posted by gfrobe at 10:27 AM on November 16, 2005

I've had dogs my whole life. We had one biter when I was an infant that my parents got rid of, but I recall at least one of two incidents with each dog that involved snapping. Once (I was about 4) I put a pencil in the dog's eye and she put her paw on my hand and snapped and growled at me. Another dog, an epileptic, would snap after a seizure or once in awhile during play. Neither ever bit anyone on purpose. (Occasional accidental teeth scrapes while getting a treat or a toy out of our hands.)

That's not to say that you and your children will be completely safe. Dogs are animals with extraordinary bite strength. Even with proper care and training, a dog should still be respected as a potentially lethal creature. They require exercise, affection, and discipline. As pack animals, they must feel that they are on the lowest rung of the pack ladder--BELOW your children--for snapping and other undesirable behaviors to cease.

All of our best dogs were already on the lowest rung of the pack heirarchy when we got them because they were the litter runts or just submissive by nature. My father never had any trouble being in charge of a dog because he understands the pack heirarchy, but my mother, who sees animals as people and not animals, is not capable of leadership behavior. It's not a coincidence that the one somewhat aggressive dog we had bit her.

The dog isn't a lost cause. You need to be willing to spend time with the dog--exercise (at least two 20 minute vigorous walks a day), appropriate discipline (no smacking), and deserved affection and praise. You and your husband would need to learn how to train and manage a dog. The fact that the dog is allowed on the couch--in a superior position to where your young child was at the time--tells me that you don't understand dogs. If you aren't willing to take the time to fix this, admit it to yourself and return the dog to the shelter. And don't get another one until you are willing to learn.
posted by xyzzy at 10:34 AM on November 16, 2005

Lyn Never seems to have it exactly right.

There is no dog that is guaranteed not to bite a child. A dog is an animal -- biting is one of the ways in which it may communicate. A child is an inferior member of the pack to a dog, which may complicate things.

Your choices are stark: kill the dog, keep it, or give it to friends or family. Only that latter is any good at all, I suspect.

But I will say one thing: I've watched people that raise kids to be little hellions with their pets. Tackle 'em, throw 'em around, poke 'em, tease 'em, it goes on and on. Only by luck do these kids not push even the most patient of dogs over the edge.

Don't raise that kind of kid.

If you were to decide to keep the dog, your best angle of attack is to train your child. She is going to have a much easier time learning than your dog (no longer being a puppy) by virtue of a much more powerful intellect. Teach the child to leave the dog alone together. Monitor their behavior together. Since you have doubts about this dog, try not to leave them alone, etc. Don't let the kid think of the dog as a toy (yeah, she's quite young now, so currently your options are limited, but keeping them mostly apart seems like a good start and not that hard, considering that it's temporary).

The after-school-special relationship between your dog and your daughter would be really cool, but it's not a realistic option for this dog. So don't try for it.

One snarl hardly seems like enough to justify putting the dog down. But it's not my kid.
posted by teece at 10:37 AM on November 16, 2005

I have a friend who was bitten as a child. She has a scar under her chin and does not like dogs today (as an adult). I wouldn't take the chance with a toddler and that dog.
posted by 6550 at 10:40 AM on November 16, 2005

Thanks everyone, the information you've given is helpful, some things I hadn't thought of before, other thoughts are better clarified. It will go a long way towards helping us deal with this.

I just spoke with the shelter. They are as shocked at this behavior as we are but they suggested and agree that she is not a good fit for our family now. They will take her back and I will do my best to help them find her another home.

We've really grown to love her and this really hurts. She's been such a good dog - sweet, mild mannered, no house training problems. We visited her 3 times at the shelter and she lived with us for a trial of one week before we adopted her- and the shelter people have been very involved all these months with her adjustment to 'life outside the pen'. I don't know what more we could have done to prevent this outcome.

Her picture (if you are interested in adopting, we are in NM, close to TX - lmk. She is brown & white colored, small to medium sized:
Sister
posted by LadyBonita at 10:40 AM on November 16, 2005

Oh, and they will NOT put her 'down'. As told to me, she is part of their family after being there so many years. Some members of the society may feel diferently, but they won't win that battle. There are people there that love her and will make sure she is always safe. They were just so thrilled to find a good home for her after so long, and after many had given up - it really is a disappointment for all of us.
posted by LadyBonita at 10:44 AM on November 16, 2005

You are almost certainly going to have to get rid of the dog. I hate to say it, because I just went though almost this exact same scenario (rescue dog, aggression issues, but no small kids thank god, email in profile, details on blog & metachat) and in retrospect I wish I had done it sooner and not waited 7 months. It's a terrible, terrible decision to have to make, but waiting almost certainly won't make it any easier, just worse.

To be honest, an older/rescue dog of any breed is a bad, bad choice for a family with small children. You're much better off with a puppy who will grow up with your kids and learn correct doggie/kid interactions that way. My old shepherd mix Toby grew up with my children and as a result would happily lie on the floor while babies and toddlers climbed all over him. Dogs have to be socialized to small children when they're young just as they have to be socialized to other dogs, and with an older rescue dog you have no idea if this ever happened and your chances of a bite are much higher. I have a sweet dog who I did raise from a puppy, totally nonaggressive and friendly, but he's hardly ever been around small children. Therefore, I do not ever leave him alone with them, and I never will.

Yes, it can always happen - my childhood dog, grown old, bit my daughter badly on the cheek when she was 11 months, she's now 22 (years), still has the scar, doesn't remember the incident, never had a fear of dogs - but again, that was a dog who had never been around small children. You really don't want to go through that. My mother put the dog down and the guilt for both of us, on all fronts, was tremendous. The guilt is always bad (I cried for days last week) but believe me, the guilt after the dog hurts someone is far far worse than the guilt before it does.
posted by mygothlaundry at 10:47 AM on November 16, 2005

I think you're making the right decision, difficult as that may be. I hope you won't mind me suggesting that you wait until your youngest is quite a bit older before you get another dog? As biscotti says, this isn't a good situation (for either the kids or the dogs) unless you can "commit 100% to a 'supervised or separated' policy," and with three kids at home how could you possibly do that?
posted by timeistight at 10:58 AM on November 16, 2005

I think its a good idea to get rid of this dog and get a puppy that can grow up in your family. Please take some dog training (really it's training you) so you know how to act to give the dog a comfortable place. He expects a pack like social structure so that's what you give him. Dog training will help you learn how to keep him in his place gently (usually) and in a way he understands. The dog should be lowest in the pack and you have to enforce it. This is good for both of you. It is not acceptable to snap at the others and he needs to know that.

Of course when playing (tug, fetch, wrestle) growling and gentle biting is expected.
posted by jockc at 11:25 AM on November 16, 2005

How bad are you going to feel about getting rid of the dog?

How bad are you going to feel about the dog eating the baby?

And from that, you make your decision.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:01 PM on November 16, 2005

A little tangent, but a comment on teece's reply - I think you have to train dogs AND train children. I taught my daughter how to pat the dog, I explained to her what made the dog jump up, etc, and I always got her to feed the dog to reinforce child > dog dominance. However, I also always punished any sign of aggression from the dog, no matter whether it was justified or not. End result: placid, pokable dog who was treated nice by the kid and vice versa.

However, I'm really sorry but I agree with everyone else about the age factor and I think you have to take her back.

You did your best already, and more than anybody else ever did.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:00 PM on November 16, 2005

My friend's dog started baring teeth and snapping at her 18-month-old. The dog had always been a bit skittish. Last month, she let him out of the basement (she'd been out) and the dog lunged at an adult friend, biting a hole in the woman's stomach. Fortunately, the friend was a trauma nurse and dog lover and so is only physically scarred for life. But my friend had the dog put down. She now wishes she'd done it before, as much as she loved the dog.
posted by acoutu at 2:13 PM on November 16, 2005

And please remember that dogs are creatures of instinct. Small squealy things (which babies and toddlers are) can bring out the predator/prey instinct in an animal.

You are doing right by getting rid of the dog.
posted by konolia at 3:06 PM on November 16, 2005

Dogs bite. My folks dog bit me when i was a kid, my uncles dog bit me when i went in their room, I see dogs snap all the time. Kids are a pain in the ass for dogs, if you're worried do your dog a favour and find it a new home.
posted by brautigan at 6:08 PM on November 16, 2005

Thanks again everyone. We're coping as best we can.
posted by LadyBonita at 8:05 AM on November 17, 2005