Commuting vs. Campus
December 12, 2014 6:56 PM Subscribe
Room and board for my university costs $13k a year. My family lives 10 miles away from campus. Please help me come up with pros and cons for commuting, and let me hear your experiences as a commuter student.
I attend a school that costs about $55 grand a year. My parents are able and willing to pay this money, and I get a tremendous amount of return from my school for that money. However, I have the option of shaving $13 grand off of that price tag by living at home and commuting 10 miles each way, which takes anywhere from 20 to 40 minutes depending on traffic. (I have a car and would drive-commute.) A guaranteed parking spot on campus costs $100 a year.
Financially, it seems like a no-brainer. However, my parents pretend that they have no opinion either way -- though I know saving them $13k a year would be great, they would rather pay that money and have me succeed rather than take a risk jeopardizing my academic success for something that they can afford. So the decision is on me, and I'm having a hard time making it.
I've lived in dorms for several years in university and in grade school, and I've lived independently for year-long periods away from my family and worked, so I feel like I've already learned the lessons of maturity/independence that on-campus living teaches. I don't particularly love the logistical aspects of dorm life, either -- I hate not being able to cook and eat healthily (there's no comparison between shopping/cooking for yourself and cafeteria food), living with roommates, and the tiny size of dorm rooms. I attend a women's college, am straight, and not terribly interested in dating for the foreseeable future, so I'm also not terribly worried about the romantic/sexual benefits of living on campus.
However, I am worried about the social opportunities I'll miss. A fair amount of socializing happens in dorms at night, and by living at home I'll be missing out on that. I am decidedly an introvert, so I'd have to work a lot harder than I am now in general to maintain friendships as a commuter. (And I really do want to keep the friendships I currently have.) And while I party fairly rarely (once a month, max), I do really enjoy those occasions and would not be able to experience them living at home. But I still keep thinking about that $13k I could be saving my parents.
I still have another 3-4 months before I have to come to a decision, though, so I would appreciate hearing all of your thoughts on my situation, your experiences commuting, or your observations.
I attend a school that costs about $55 grand a year. My parents are able and willing to pay this money, and I get a tremendous amount of return from my school for that money. However, I have the option of shaving $13 grand off of that price tag by living at home and commuting 10 miles each way, which takes anywhere from 20 to 40 minutes depending on traffic. (I have a car and would drive-commute.) A guaranteed parking spot on campus costs $100 a year.
Financially, it seems like a no-brainer. However, my parents pretend that they have no opinion either way -- though I know saving them $13k a year would be great, they would rather pay that money and have me succeed rather than take a risk jeopardizing my academic success for something that they can afford. So the decision is on me, and I'm having a hard time making it.
I've lived in dorms for several years in university and in grade school, and I've lived independently for year-long periods away from my family and worked, so I feel like I've already learned the lessons of maturity/independence that on-campus living teaches. I don't particularly love the logistical aspects of dorm life, either -- I hate not being able to cook and eat healthily (there's no comparison between shopping/cooking for yourself and cafeteria food), living with roommates, and the tiny size of dorm rooms. I attend a women's college, am straight, and not terribly interested in dating for the foreseeable future, so I'm also not terribly worried about the romantic/sexual benefits of living on campus.
However, I am worried about the social opportunities I'll miss. A fair amount of socializing happens in dorms at night, and by living at home I'll be missing out on that. I am decidedly an introvert, so I'd have to work a lot harder than I am now in general to maintain friendships as a commuter. (And I really do want to keep the friendships I currently have.) And while I party fairly rarely (once a month, max), I do really enjoy those occasions and would not be able to experience them living at home. But I still keep thinking about that $13k I could be saving my parents.
I still have another 3-4 months before I have to come to a decision, though, so I would appreciate hearing all of your thoughts on my situation, your experiences commuting, or your observations.
Could you live in an off campus apartment (like, just renting an apartment in town, as close to campus as you can swing, ideally within walking distance?) I had a lot of friends rent houses with roommates for dirt cheap within spitting distance of campus, and they were much nicer than living in the dorms, too-- kitchens, spacious, nicer construction, no sharing of actual rooms among roommates.
Of course, this might not be possible or practical in your particular campus/town situation, but if it is it would be a nice compromise.
posted by geegollygosh at 7:13 PM on December 12, 2014
Of course, this might not be possible or practical in your particular campus/town situation, but if it is it would be a nice compromise.
posted by geegollygosh at 7:13 PM on December 12, 2014
Response by poster: Housing in the area around my school is both extremely expensive and limited (it's in a very affluent, very residential suburb), so off-campus renting is unfortunately not really an option.
posted by krakus at 7:18 PM on December 12, 2014
posted by krakus at 7:18 PM on December 12, 2014
Part of being a student is learning individual responsibility. Paying $13K/year in order to party once a month is not responsible. If you value your socializing that much, it's up to you to pay for it yourself, not your parents. Once you start paying your own way, you have the choice to spend your money on whatever you like. To be blunt, someone that's been to college twice should work on minimizing their expenses and working as hard as possible towards fiscal independence - not spending their parents' money so they can have a social life.
posted by saeculorum at 7:25 PM on December 12, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by saeculorum at 7:25 PM on December 12, 2014 [9 favorites]
I've lived in dorms for several years in university and in grade school, and I've lived independently for year-long periods away from my family and worked, so I feel like I've already learned the lessons of maturity/independence that on-campus living teaches. I don't particularly love the logistical aspects of dorm life, either -- I hate not being able to cook and eat healthily (there's no comparison between shopping/cooking for yourself and cafeteria food), living with roommates, and the tiny size of dorm rooms. I attend a women's college, am straight, and not terribly interested in dating for the foreseeable future, so I'm also not terribly worried about the romantic/sexual benefits of living on campus.
I think this answers your question. There's very little benefit that I can see to you living on campus. You could easily end up with an unpleasant situation and you've already had the experience of being independent and living in dorms. As long as you get along well enough with you parents, I think living at home would be good for you and would be good for your parents. Them paying for your tuition alone is a significant expenditure (and amazingly generous!) and there's no reason to make it far more expensive.
Honestly, when I lived in dorms and even with roommates, I often socialized outside of those groups. You won't necessarily end up with people you like or get along with.
This could be an opportunity to find ways to be more social outside of a shared living situation. You'll meet people in classes and study groups and in whatever organizations you decide to participate in. I had a similar commute to my University when I left the dorms after one year. It wasn't a problem and I still maintained an active social life. Probably a bit too active.
posted by quince at 7:27 PM on December 12, 2014
I think this answers your question. There's very little benefit that I can see to you living on campus. You could easily end up with an unpleasant situation and you've already had the experience of being independent and living in dorms. As long as you get along well enough with you parents, I think living at home would be good for you and would be good for your parents. Them paying for your tuition alone is a significant expenditure (and amazingly generous!) and there's no reason to make it far more expensive.
Honestly, when I lived in dorms and even with roommates, I often socialized outside of those groups. You won't necessarily end up with people you like or get along with.
This could be an opportunity to find ways to be more social outside of a shared living situation. You'll meet people in classes and study groups and in whatever organizations you decide to participate in. I had a similar commute to my University when I left the dorms after one year. It wasn't a problem and I still maintained an active social life. Probably a bit too active.
posted by quince at 7:27 PM on December 12, 2014
Response by poster: Sorry for threadsitting, but want to clarify -- this is not my second time in college. This is my first (and ideally only) go-round. Sorry if that was unclear.
posted by krakus at 7:27 PM on December 12, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by krakus at 7:27 PM on December 12, 2014 [3 favorites]
My answer remains valid.
You will need to learn how to socialize in a non-forced (by dorms) setting the moment you graduate. This is a real life skill that you have to acquire. You might as well acquire it now and save $13k while you're doing it.
Your question reads to me as, "should I pay $1083 each month to go to one party?"
The answer to that question is, "no, you shouldn't - that's not what people do in the real world."
posted by saeculorum at 7:33 PM on December 12, 2014
You will need to learn how to socialize in a non-forced (by dorms) setting the moment you graduate. This is a real life skill that you have to acquire. You might as well acquire it now and save $13k while you're doing it.
Your question reads to me as, "should I pay $1083 each month to go to one party?"
The answer to that question is, "no, you shouldn't - that's not what people do in the real world."
posted by saeculorum at 7:33 PM on December 12, 2014
I think a big part of college life is living on campus and being involved in evening and weekend activities. I vote for on campus living if you have the choice. You could give it a try for one semester and then revisit your decision.
posted by jennstra at 7:33 PM on December 12, 2014 [12 favorites]
posted by jennstra at 7:33 PM on December 12, 2014 [12 favorites]
Ten miles isn't that far. As a faculty member, I think you could get the social advantages of on-campus life by selectively joining student groups—or, for that matter, community groups that aren't necessarily connected to the university.
Your post implies that you're a little older than the typical 18-22-year-old undergrad, so you might not find on-campus living that congenial, anyway. Apologies if I'm wrong!
My inclination, without knowing more about your situation, would be to live at home, commute, find targeted social/intellectual communities on campus and in your community. If you want to party, arrange for a taxi to take you home (unless there's a reason to stay on campus afterwards, in which case, pack an overnight bag).
I lived in a dorm my first year in college; afterwards, I shared apartments with roommates who were at the same university, a 15-40 minute walk from campus. I don't think my social life would have been very different had I been living a 10-minute drive away. I did still hang out with friends who lived on campus; the main difference was that, at the end of the evening, I headed home. If you want to get drunk or high with your on-campus friends, the equation might be different; otherwise, it just takes a bit of logistics.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:33 PM on December 12, 2014 [3 favorites]
Your post implies that you're a little older than the typical 18-22-year-old undergrad, so you might not find on-campus living that congenial, anyway. Apologies if I'm wrong!
My inclination, without knowing more about your situation, would be to live at home, commute, find targeted social/intellectual communities on campus and in your community. If you want to party, arrange for a taxi to take you home (unless there's a reason to stay on campus afterwards, in which case, pack an overnight bag).
I lived in a dorm my first year in college; afterwards, I shared apartments with roommates who were at the same university, a 15-40 minute walk from campus. I don't think my social life would have been very different had I been living a 10-minute drive away. I did still hang out with friends who lived on campus; the main difference was that, at the end of the evening, I headed home. If you want to get drunk or high with your on-campus friends, the equation might be different; otherwise, it just takes a bit of logistics.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:33 PM on December 12, 2014 [3 favorites]
What about living on campus for the first year and being open to re-evaluating after that? For a four year program, you'd still save quite a bit of money. You'll have more information to determine whether living on campus would be invaluable or just a nice bonus. And even if you choose to live at home for a year after that, it's always possible to go back. Either way, it might be easier to make the decision if it doesn't seem irrevocable.
posted by decathexis at 7:36 PM on December 12, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by decathexis at 7:36 PM on December 12, 2014 [7 favorites]
Hmm, well I'm a bit confused by
posted by XMLicious at 7:39 PM on December 12, 2014 [2 favorites]
I've lived in dorms for several years in universityif this is your first time, but anyway: I would say bring the socializing to you, spend 4×$13k to refurbish your parents' basement or build an extension to the house or otherwise make it party central while adding rental space or other value to their property.
posted by XMLicious at 7:39 PM on December 12, 2014 [2 favorites]
Live at home and when the need arises you crash on someone's couch or take a cab home.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 7:44 PM on December 12, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 7:44 PM on December 12, 2014 [5 favorites]
Live the first half at home and the second half on campus. That's what I did. It was nice to be close to campus in the last two years and I think I benefitted from the additional discipline I gained in my first two years as a commuter student.
posted by safetyfork at 7:47 PM on December 12, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by safetyfork at 7:47 PM on December 12, 2014 [1 favorite]
Have your parents put $13,000 per year into a bank account for you. Then you get to decide whether to take that money out and spend it to live on campus, or save it up to have available when you graduate.
My personal choice would probably be one year on campus to catch the vibe and meet people (which it sounds like you've already done) and then three years of banking the money and living at home. $39,000 cash buys a whole lot of freedom for a recent college graduate.
(I realize this may not be an actual choice that is available to you. It is still a useful thought exercise, to show you how much you'd value the on-campus living if it was your money that was being spent on it. That $39K will come in handy for your parents, too, just as it would for you.)
posted by alms at 7:50 PM on December 12, 2014 [3 favorites]
My personal choice would probably be one year on campus to catch the vibe and meet people (which it sounds like you've already done) and then three years of banking the money and living at home. $39,000 cash buys a whole lot of freedom for a recent college graduate.
(I realize this may not be an actual choice that is available to you. It is still a useful thought exercise, to show you how much you'd value the on-campus living if it was your money that was being spent on it. That $39K will come in handy for your parents, too, just as it would for you.)
posted by alms at 7:50 PM on December 12, 2014 [3 favorites]
I was a commuter student and I worked on campus. I was very happy not to pay an extra 10 grand for the privilege of being jammed into a dorm room in a building full of people of various maturity levels and hygiene standards, and pay extra for hospital food and shared laundry facilities. I did stay on campus all day because campus had libraries to study in and friends to hang out with. It wasn't an imposition to do so. I never felt I missed out on anything.
posted by zennie at 8:10 PM on December 12, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by zennie at 8:10 PM on December 12, 2014 [5 favorites]
I don't understand why anyone would want to live on campus. No no no no. Live at home or live somewhere (anywhere!!!) else.
posted by Violet Hour at 8:22 PM on December 12, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Violet Hour at 8:22 PM on December 12, 2014 [2 favorites]
I had no choice but to live in dorms for two years. My parents said they would help pay but they actually meant they would co sign student loans for me. I left saddled with a lot of debt. I found the dorm community staff was constantly arranging events and the distraction of having friends around almost 24/7 definitely hurt me academically. I lived off campus the other two years and this was very much preferable. 10 years out, I am barely tangentially friends with anyone I met in the dorms. The convenience of living on campus is not worth it in my opinion. YMMV.
posted by HMSSM at 8:33 PM on December 12, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by HMSSM at 8:33 PM on December 12, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think your "in" is to be the friend with a car. Get really comfortable asking for gas money but also be generous with offering to take people places. You also have the advantage of being a townie and knowing where things are. That, plus you can keep an eye out for responsible people to invite back home for relaxed non-dorm hanging out, maybe to cook special food or just to get off campus for a little while.
posted by Mizu at 8:39 PM on December 12, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 8:39 PM on December 12, 2014 [5 favorites]
You're getting a lot of different advice because people are projecting their own college/university experiences onto this question. If you're (understandably) reluctant to name the specific school, it would be helpful to know broadly speaking what kind of school it is. Is it a small liberal arts college? a large land grant institution? a research-based prestigious university? Being a commuter student will mean very different things at different kinds of institutions.
The question is a little confusing in general since the term "university" implies a non-American institution while the financial amounts are given in (American?) dollars. $100/year for guaranteed parking is also cheap for a $55k/year institution in a "very affluent, very residential suburb."
Also a little puzzling that your parents have "no opinion" about the question, but are apparently happy to pay the 13k -- reading the tea leaves this sounds to me like your parents are not so concerned about the money, but rather they would like your company at home despite knowing it might be better for you to fly the coop.
posted by crazy with stars at 8:39 PM on December 12, 2014 [4 favorites]
The question is a little confusing in general since the term "university" implies a non-American institution while the financial amounts are given in (American?) dollars. $100/year for guaranteed parking is also cheap for a $55k/year institution in a "very affluent, very residential suburb."
Also a little puzzling that your parents have "no opinion" about the question, but are apparently happy to pay the 13k -- reading the tea leaves this sounds to me like your parents are not so concerned about the money, but rather they would like your company at home despite knowing it might be better for you to fly the coop.
posted by crazy with stars at 8:39 PM on December 12, 2014 [4 favorites]
I think you're way overestimating the social aspect of your decision. While it's true that a lot of people do choose to socialize with the people in their dorm, many of these friendships and connections are based more off convenience (hey, you're here and I'm here) rather than shared interests or any sort of real foundation that will persist beyond a dorm setting. As a senior student, I don't even keep in contact with any of the people I met in my dorm in first year any more. The people I still keep in contact - many of which are now graduated and in different cities now but still send me messages frequently - with are those I met through club activities or activism or really just anything a step beyond "we should be friends because we were put in the same place together."
It's true you have to work harder to maintain these friendships. But in a way, this is just the way friendships work in an adult world. The university environment - and for that manner, the grade school and high school environments - is very much an artificial one, as you'll never really encounter any other situation where you'll have the luxury of having hours upon hours of free time while being surrounded by thousands of people your own age. I think a lot of people become reliant upon the easy access to socialization and friendship afforded by these structures - and then never really develop the skills to develop and maintain friendships outside of university. It may make sense to consider living off-campus this year (especially paired with how much financial sense it would make) as a chance to learn valuable life-long social skills.
posted by Conspire at 8:40 PM on December 12, 2014
It's true you have to work harder to maintain these friendships. But in a way, this is just the way friendships work in an adult world. The university environment - and for that manner, the grade school and high school environments - is very much an artificial one, as you'll never really encounter any other situation where you'll have the luxury of having hours upon hours of free time while being surrounded by thousands of people your own age. I think a lot of people become reliant upon the easy access to socialization and friendship afforded by these structures - and then never really develop the skills to develop and maintain friendships outside of university. It may make sense to consider living off-campus this year (especially paired with how much financial sense it would make) as a chance to learn valuable life-long social skills.
posted by Conspire at 8:40 PM on December 12, 2014
I commuted ~25-30 miles to my university, while I lived in my hometown (with my folks and then with my now-husband) and worked. My university is known as a commuter college, although my first year there was the first year it actually offered dorms. Most of my classmates lived in nearby apartments; because the university had never previously had dorms, the off-campus apartments were pretty much where campus lived and socialized. And I went to those apartments on exactly two occasions: one time for a group project and another time for a group project. Exciting, right?
At times, I felt disconnected from my classmates, but I'm confident it was because I worked, not because I commuted. When I was on campus, I was either in class or passed out in the student union. My classes were from 9am-9pm (because I had to pack as many classes into my non-work days as possible), and, on non-class days, I was at work. Thus, I couldn't really participate in clubs or groups. I socialized during class and during group projects; I made and still have a lot of friends who shared my majors and minor. If I saw someone I knew during a break between classes, I'd pass on my nap and go grab food or coffee with them. I didn't miss out on making friends.
About a year after I graduated, I visited some friends at Purdue's main campus, and that's when I truly felt like I had missed out on the "real" college experience -- dorms, frats, the campus culture, etc. But--and this is a huge "but"--those friends I visited will be paying off that experience for nearly their entire lives, or so they've told me. They often lament that they didn't stay closer to home and go to the cheap satellite school while living at home. It's been nearly five years since I graduated, and I'm glad I don't have the extra debt from living on/near campus.
tl;dr: make the most of the time you're on campus, and save that money. Ten miles is nothing and most definitely not worth $13K/year.
posted by coast99 at 8:42 PM on December 12, 2014
At times, I felt disconnected from my classmates, but I'm confident it was because I worked, not because I commuted. When I was on campus, I was either in class or passed out in the student union. My classes were from 9am-9pm (because I had to pack as many classes into my non-work days as possible), and, on non-class days, I was at work. Thus, I couldn't really participate in clubs or groups. I socialized during class and during group projects; I made and still have a lot of friends who shared my majors and minor. If I saw someone I knew during a break between classes, I'd pass on my nap and go grab food or coffee with them. I didn't miss out on making friends.
About a year after I graduated, I visited some friends at Purdue's main campus, and that's when I truly felt like I had missed out on the "real" college experience -- dorms, frats, the campus culture, etc. But--and this is a huge "but"--those friends I visited will be paying off that experience for nearly their entire lives, or so they've told me. They often lament that they didn't stay closer to home and go to the cheap satellite school while living at home. It's been nearly five years since I graduated, and I'm glad I don't have the extra debt from living on/near campus.
tl;dr: make the most of the time you're on campus, and save that money. Ten miles is nothing and most definitely not worth $13K/year.
posted by coast99 at 8:42 PM on December 12, 2014
As a women's college alumna, I'd say live on campus, at least for another year or so.
My experience at Smith was that social life really revolved around the dorms and commuting students had a very hard time making friends. My school (this might be true of other women's colleges) also seemed to attract a LOT nice but somewhat reserved and awkward young people. So for me as an introvert, it was much easier for me to make friends with a student body of fellow introverts when we were living with each other. I lived off-campus for my last year and a half and at that point, it was a good choice, but having those first few years of living on-campus really helped make me feel like part of the campus community.
I don't know the dynamics of your school, but I do think women's colleges can be pretty socially different than a lot of university experiences and that might factor into your decision.
posted by horizons at 8:54 PM on December 12, 2014 [5 favorites]
My experience at Smith was that social life really revolved around the dorms and commuting students had a very hard time making friends. My school (this might be true of other women's colleges) also seemed to attract a LOT nice but somewhat reserved and awkward young people. So for me as an introvert, it was much easier for me to make friends with a student body of fellow introverts when we were living with each other. I lived off-campus for my last year and a half and at that point, it was a good choice, but having those first few years of living on-campus really helped make me feel like part of the campus community.
I don't know the dynamics of your school, but I do think women's colleges can be pretty socially different than a lot of university experiences and that might factor into your decision.
posted by horizons at 8:54 PM on December 12, 2014 [5 favorites]
The food? In my experience of living on campus, the food for my residential college was revolting, bland over cooked and /or dried out because of the cafeteria style doing room. The other alternative was the fast food - over expensive and fatty.
Privacy? Shower stalls in shared bathrooms? The tiny room being the only place you could get away from people. Having to keep your door shut constantly because people would stare at you when they walked past.
Noise? Sudden raucous laughter - suddenly hushed so TA couldn't work out which room was waking us up at 2am, again.
Laundry facilities half a mile from your room, and all machines in use, and if you don't stay there while your clothes dry, someone will take your wet stuff out of the dryer and put theirs in because they can't wait.
Nope, not for me.
posted by b33j at 8:55 PM on December 12, 2014
Privacy? Shower stalls in shared bathrooms? The tiny room being the only place you could get away from people. Having to keep your door shut constantly because people would stare at you when they walked past.
Noise? Sudden raucous laughter - suddenly hushed so TA couldn't work out which room was waking us up at 2am, again.
Laundry facilities half a mile from your room, and all machines in use, and if you don't stay there while your clothes dry, someone will take your wet stuff out of the dryer and put theirs in because they can't wait.
Nope, not for me.
posted by b33j at 8:55 PM on December 12, 2014
Become an RA in your sophomore year and get your room and board for free. You will also get more privacy, your own bathroom, and in some cases a kitchen. Also, many schools offer apartment-style dorms for upperclassmen, so you might only be in the dorm-style dorm for one or two years.
Everyone else is right that this varies from person to person. You need to know yourself pretty well to know what is going to work for you.
I have been an on-campus student, a commuter with a 25 minute driving commute, a 15 minute campus bus commute, and now a 45 minute driving commute. I was happiest with the bus commute, and if I had had an apartment or just more privacy somehow on-campus would have been fine.
In your shoes, I would live on campus. The length of my commute sucks. Getting up at 6:50 sucks. Hanging around campus in the public areas during the one-hour break I have sucks. Driving home from the library at 10 or 11pm sucks. Parking sucks. Going to study groups scheduled at 6pm on a Friday sucks. Driving in to campus for open lab on weekends? Guess what, it sucks. Would all that stuff suck for you? Only you know that. Maybe you are a natural early riser. Maybe you will study during your breaks. Maybe you are great at studying at home even when your parents want you to eat dinner with them every night. I don't know. You have to assess your own personality.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 9:13 PM on December 12, 2014 [2 favorites]
Everyone else is right that this varies from person to person. You need to know yourself pretty well to know what is going to work for you.
I have been an on-campus student, a commuter with a 25 minute driving commute, a 15 minute campus bus commute, and now a 45 minute driving commute. I was happiest with the bus commute, and if I had had an apartment or just more privacy somehow on-campus would have been fine.
In your shoes, I would live on campus. The length of my commute sucks. Getting up at 6:50 sucks. Hanging around campus in the public areas during the one-hour break I have sucks. Driving home from the library at 10 or 11pm sucks. Parking sucks. Going to study groups scheduled at 6pm on a Friday sucks. Driving in to campus for open lab on weekends? Guess what, it sucks. Would all that stuff suck for you? Only you know that. Maybe you are a natural early riser. Maybe you will study during your breaks. Maybe you are great at studying at home even when your parents want you to eat dinner with them every night. I don't know. You have to assess your own personality.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 9:13 PM on December 12, 2014 [2 favorites]
I commuted about 15 miles to college for a year, for the reasons you give: you can save a lot of money.
But you also waste an hour a day in traffic; depending on how rigorous your program is, you might need that time for your studies.
In my case, I found that the loss of time was not worth the savings in money, and moved to an off-campus apartment for the following year.
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 9:20 PM on December 12, 2014 [3 favorites]
But you also waste an hour a day in traffic; depending on how rigorous your program is, you might need that time for your studies.
In my case, I found that the loss of time was not worth the savings in money, and moved to an off-campus apartment for the following year.
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 9:20 PM on December 12, 2014 [3 favorites]
The majority of university students in Australia commute to uni and do just fine making friends and socialising without living on campus. Yes, the social aspect can be important, but it's hardly the reason why you're going to college.
I joined a couple of clubs and groups and made friends that way. We still see each other three + years after graduation.
Keep living out home, help your parents around the house because they're doing something really big for you by paying for your education and maybe move into a sharehouse in a few years if you want to live with your friends.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 9:31 PM on December 12, 2014
I joined a couple of clubs and groups and made friends that way. We still see each other three + years after graduation.
Keep living out home, help your parents around the house because they're doing something really big for you by paying for your education and maybe move into a sharehouse in a few years if you want to live with your friends.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 9:31 PM on December 12, 2014
And while I party fairly rarely (once a month, max), I do really enjoy those occasions and would not be able to experience them living at home.
A lot of folks seem to be really coming down on you for this... but part of college is having fun and making social connections, not just classroom learning or organized school activities (be you a traditional or a non-trad student) and you seemed to be throwing out all of the information at hand, pro and con, and that's just part of the picture. So, can you make friends with folks who do live in the dorms and would be willing to have you crash on an air mattress once a month or so? (Presumably some of the same folks you'd be being social with) or will you be working and thus, able to afford a hotel room once a month or so? This is the same kind of advice we tend to float to the folks having the "should I live in Big City or Smaller Suburb debate", and it applies here too.
Also... since off campus housing right around campus is expensive, could you find housemates at about the same distance from campus as you'd be with your family, but that way you'd have your own space (at a cheaper price than living on campus)? Just a thought there.
posted by joycehealy at 9:31 PM on December 12, 2014 [1 favorite]
A lot of folks seem to be really coming down on you for this... but part of college is having fun and making social connections, not just classroom learning or organized school activities (be you a traditional or a non-trad student) and you seemed to be throwing out all of the information at hand, pro and con, and that's just part of the picture. So, can you make friends with folks who do live in the dorms and would be willing to have you crash on an air mattress once a month or so? (Presumably some of the same folks you'd be being social with) or will you be working and thus, able to afford a hotel room once a month or so? This is the same kind of advice we tend to float to the folks having the "should I live in Big City or Smaller Suburb debate", and it applies here too.
Also... since off campus housing right around campus is expensive, could you find housemates at about the same distance from campus as you'd be with your family, but that way you'd have your own space (at a cheaper price than living on campus)? Just a thought there.
posted by joycehealy at 9:31 PM on December 12, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's unclear what level of schooling you're at, which would inform my answer greatly. Like, if you're a high school senior looking at attending college for the first time, I'd say that living on campus is part of the College Experience and if your parents are willing to underwrite that at least for your first year or so, you should absolutely let them. But you go on to say that you did the dorm thing during undergrad and what I think was meant to be grad school (not grade school?!). In which case it sounds like you're going back to school for further post-grad education, and as such it really doesn't matter where you live in the way that it would if you were a green eighteen year old.
I definitely think that if my read of the situation is correct and you're a grad student or postgrad, no way, you definitely don't need to live on campus. Do most grad students do that at your school? Because most people I've known who've done the grad school thing have not chosen to live on campus.
posted by Sara C. at 9:43 PM on December 12, 2014
I definitely think that if my read of the situation is correct and you're a grad student or postgrad, no way, you definitely don't need to live on campus. Do most grad students do that at your school? Because most people I've known who've done the grad school thing have not chosen to live on campus.
posted by Sara C. at 9:43 PM on December 12, 2014
I commuted 70 miles by train to my university. I was an older student, sharing an apartment with my boyfriend, our dog, turtles, fish, &c. So yeah, I pretty much had a life totally outside college, and yet I still felt some pangs when my commute meant I couldn't easily hang out with my classmates or do some extracurricular activities. However, that was seven times your commute, without my own car! Ten miles seems like nothing, especially since you have your own transportation. Will you know people who have a couch to crash on when you want to go to a party or need to study late? Will you be able to study easily living with your parents? Then I think you don't need to live on campus.
I did have some issues when I had scale models or prototypes as assignments, but I just got very good at making things in modular bits that I could carry on my bike and assemble on campus.
posted by oneirodynia at 9:59 PM on December 12, 2014
I did have some issues when I had scale models or prototypes as assignments, but I just got very good at making things in modular bits that I could carry on my bike and assemble on campus.
posted by oneirodynia at 9:59 PM on December 12, 2014
My daughter attends University about 10 miles from the house she grew up in, ie, "Mom and Dad's house". This same issue came up and my wife and I agreed: our daughter should live on-campus. Yes, it's expensive, but we both agreed that part of the College Experience is 'getting out of the house and living on your own'. In a dorm, in a co-op, in an apartment, whatever works. There are a lot of intangible-yet-valuable aspects to moving out of the house and into a dorm or apartment.
(Our daughter agrees, too. I mean, we wouldn't force her out of the house if she wanted to live at home. I think she's coming home tomorrow - I'll ask her about moving back home. She'll almost certainly laugh at the idea).
posted by doctor tough love at 10:15 PM on December 12, 2014 [1 favorite]
(Our daughter agrees, too. I mean, we wouldn't force her out of the house if she wanted to live at home. I think she's coming home tomorrow - I'll ask her about moving back home. She'll almost certainly laugh at the idea).
posted by doctor tough love at 10:15 PM on December 12, 2014 [1 favorite]
I commuted to a top-20 university. Second biggest mistake of my life (the first was going there in the first place). I wound up sleeping in my car a lot so I could make study sessions, and despite knowing the head of the Campus Programming Council (basically the clearinghouse for all non-greek social events) always felt one step removed socially.
I feel as though I merely attended classes, rather than actually having "gone to X university". Most people carry a number of friends from college years through their life. I have exactly zero.
Don't. Fucking. Do. It.
posted by notsnot at 10:19 PM on December 12, 2014 [10 favorites]
I feel as though I merely attended classes, rather than actually having "gone to X university". Most people carry a number of friends from college years through their life. I have exactly zero.
Don't. Fucking. Do. It.
posted by notsnot at 10:19 PM on December 12, 2014 [10 favorites]
I feel as though I merely attended classes, rather than actually having "gone to X university". Most people carry a number of friends from college years through their life. I have exactly zero.
I pretty much agree.
This is a tough call. In high school, my parents sent me away to schools during the summer where I lived in dorms.
When I went to college, I lived my first two years on campus, and my last two years off campus. I can't quite explain it but, socially and mentally, it's healthier and you are way more connected when you live on campus. It doesn't matter if you live ten minutes away - it makes a huge difference. I still hang out with the friends I made those first two years. The last two years was mostly me doing my own thing.
You have some good counter-arguments but still. The college can become your own thing, and you can bring some of your ideas to the community - for example, petitioning for healthier cooking, or familiarizing yourself with school facilities and teaching classes. Trust me, you won't want to do these things if you're off having your own "better" experience. And you'll have a hard time changing your mind and living on campus later.
I would recommend taking it one year at a time. You can always find your own place later. It's a unique experience living on campus. I interviewed at a very prestigious law school and the dean told me that school was about relationships just as much as it is about what you learn. So consider that.
posted by phaedon at 10:39 PM on December 12, 2014 [1 favorite]
I pretty much agree.
This is a tough call. In high school, my parents sent me away to schools during the summer where I lived in dorms.
When I went to college, I lived my first two years on campus, and my last two years off campus. I can't quite explain it but, socially and mentally, it's healthier and you are way more connected when you live on campus. It doesn't matter if you live ten minutes away - it makes a huge difference. I still hang out with the friends I made those first two years. The last two years was mostly me doing my own thing.
You have some good counter-arguments but still. The college can become your own thing, and you can bring some of your ideas to the community - for example, petitioning for healthier cooking, or familiarizing yourself with school facilities and teaching classes. Trust me, you won't want to do these things if you're off having your own "better" experience. And you'll have a hard time changing your mind and living on campus later.
I would recommend taking it one year at a time. You can always find your own place later. It's a unique experience living on campus. I interviewed at a very prestigious law school and the dean told me that school was about relationships just as much as it is about what you learn. So consider that.
posted by phaedon at 10:39 PM on December 12, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think a lot of people become reliant upon the easy access to socialization and friendship afforded by these structures - and then never really develop the skills to develop and maintain friendships outside of university.
Nah, most people make their friends at university and then continue to make friends in other settings differently later on. Sure, it's because of the proximity and shared experience (I don't know how people make friends, otherwise?), but people are still selecting a few individuals from the whole building, not just hanging out with whoever's next door. It can be an important bond - I'm still close to people from my year at residence (my first time around). Definitely worth the price of admission, imo.
I'd go for a year and then commute/crash with people when you want to see them. (Assuming you're a first-time undergrad, which your question really suggests is not the case. If you're a mature or graduate student, not sure why you'd want this particular experience now. Hanging out with first-year students is pretty much only fun for first-year students.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:56 PM on December 12, 2014
Nah, most people make their friends at university and then continue to make friends in other settings differently later on. Sure, it's because of the proximity and shared experience (I don't know how people make friends, otherwise?), but people are still selecting a few individuals from the whole building, not just hanging out with whoever's next door. It can be an important bond - I'm still close to people from my year at residence (my first time around). Definitely worth the price of admission, imo.
I'd go for a year and then commute/crash with people when you want to see them. (Assuming you're a first-time undergrad, which your question really suggests is not the case. If you're a mature or graduate student, not sure why you'd want this particular experience now. Hanging out with first-year students is pretty much only fun for first-year students.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:56 PM on December 12, 2014
I lived on campus for three of my three and a half years of university. I'm now a teacher (10 years in HS and now in 6th grade), and I'll tell you what I tell my students:
LIVE ON CAMPUS. That is getting access to a culture you'll never be able to access again. You can stay up watching Red Dwarf in the basement with the guy from downstairs until 3 am. You can go on an ice cream run with your roommate at midnight and walk home in the rain. You can arrange a study group on a moment's notice, and have dozens of people around you to help with whatever work you're doing. You can walk to office hours just to ask a few questions without feeling like you sacrificed an entire afternoon for that purpose. You can build relationships with professors by seeing them often, and then they will be your best references for post-university.
Sure, you can do all that as a commuter, but it's just not the same. Do your first year on campus. Then assess whether or not it'll be worth you (i.e. your parents) continuing to spend the money for it.
posted by guster4lovers at 11:50 PM on December 12, 2014 [4 favorites]
LIVE ON CAMPUS. That is getting access to a culture you'll never be able to access again. You can stay up watching Red Dwarf in the basement with the guy from downstairs until 3 am. You can go on an ice cream run with your roommate at midnight and walk home in the rain. You can arrange a study group on a moment's notice, and have dozens of people around you to help with whatever work you're doing. You can walk to office hours just to ask a few questions without feeling like you sacrificed an entire afternoon for that purpose. You can build relationships with professors by seeing them often, and then they will be your best references for post-university.
Sure, you can do all that as a commuter, but it's just not the same. Do your first year on campus. Then assess whether or not it'll be worth you (i.e. your parents) continuing to spend the money for it.
posted by guster4lovers at 11:50 PM on December 12, 2014 [4 favorites]
If you've already lived in the dorms for a couple of years, and you still haven't made your friends and found your social group...you're throwing good money after bad.
I lived at home and commuted 10 miles to my university (Arizona State--PAR-TAY!) I felt that I was missing out on the dorm thing, so I saved my money and paid for a semester in the dorms. OMG, did I have FUN! I met a pack of girls and we went to parties and hung out and shared pizzas and it was great. My grades that semester? Let's say this. I went to take an exam and could not remember what building or room the class met in.
So back home I went.
The good news was that I had friends from the dorms, friends from work and I could go to frat parties, or house parties or out to clubs with friends any time I wanted to.
Spending $13k on housing, especially when you've already had a chance to do the dorm stuff already, seems entitled and childish. If it's your social life you're worried about, join clubs, or get a job on campus or get a job as a bartender at a local club and make friends there to hang out with.
Make the effort to hang with your friends. It won't kill you. Also, as you get close to graduation everyone stops with the socialization so much. Some of your friends will graduate, and some will buckle-down for the final push, your classes get harder and more intense. I found that by Senior year that we were all just trying to get the hell out of college.
Save your folks the money, and make more of an effort. Graduate and get on with things!
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:34 AM on December 13, 2014
I lived at home and commuted 10 miles to my university (Arizona State--PAR-TAY!) I felt that I was missing out on the dorm thing, so I saved my money and paid for a semester in the dorms. OMG, did I have FUN! I met a pack of girls and we went to parties and hung out and shared pizzas and it was great. My grades that semester? Let's say this. I went to take an exam and could not remember what building or room the class met in.
So back home I went.
The good news was that I had friends from the dorms, friends from work and I could go to frat parties, or house parties or out to clubs with friends any time I wanted to.
Spending $13k on housing, especially when you've already had a chance to do the dorm stuff already, seems entitled and childish. If it's your social life you're worried about, join clubs, or get a job on campus or get a job as a bartender at a local club and make friends there to hang out with.
Make the effort to hang with your friends. It won't kill you. Also, as you get close to graduation everyone stops with the socialization so much. Some of your friends will graduate, and some will buckle-down for the final push, your classes get harder and more intense. I found that by Senior year that we were all just trying to get the hell out of college.
Save your folks the money, and make more of an effort. Graduate and get on with things!
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:34 AM on December 13, 2014
Honestly? I'd live on campus. This is your first go-around with university, and it seems like you're attending a ritzy-suburban-liberal-arts type place. Social life on schools like that revolves around dorm life, and you're just going to straight up miss out on that if you don't at least live on campus for your first year. This is especially true if you struggle to make social connections.
It sounds like your parents are loaded enough to have sent you to boarding school(?), so it doesn't seem like money is as much of an issue as it is to most people, so make sure you are not getting saddled with debt.
Also, if you were serious about getting a cost efficient education, you'd be at community college for the first 2 years and then your flagship state school, and you'd save yourself $100k, commuting or not. A large part of what you pay $55k at a liberal arts school for is the social connections you make in college. Don't waste the $42k you're already spending.
posted by fermezporte at 4:39 AM on December 13, 2014 [6 favorites]
It sounds like your parents are loaded enough to have sent you to boarding school(?), so it doesn't seem like money is as much of an issue as it is to most people, so make sure you are not getting saddled with debt.
Also, if you were serious about getting a cost efficient education, you'd be at community college for the first 2 years and then your flagship state school, and you'd save yourself $100k, commuting or not. A large part of what you pay $55k at a liberal arts school for is the social connections you make in college. Don't waste the $42k you're already spending.
posted by fermezporte at 4:39 AM on December 13, 2014 [6 favorites]
I went to Mount Holyoke. There is no way I would have made the lifetime friends I did without living on campus. I had two friends who were locals and they both lived on campus. Feel free to memail me to discuss further.
posted by emkelley at 5:41 AM on December 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by emkelley at 5:41 AM on December 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
A lot of people have covered why living on campus is a good thing, so I will not cover that ground again. But in the interest of the other side of the argument: would your parents be amenable to sharing the savings you are securing for them by living at home? Would they put, say, $5k per year into a savings account for you to be turned over to you when you graduate? They could still save $8k per year and you would have something making it worthwhile for the extra commute and a nice amount to start your adult life out with - towards a new car (after all those commuter miles) or a cushion for rent when you do move out. That way it is win-win for everyone. It also acknowledges you are making a sacrifice on their behalf, missing out on the community of dorm-life, but you are being responsible and delaying gratification for another reward in the future.
posted by zyxwvut at 5:59 AM on December 13, 2014
posted by zyxwvut at 5:59 AM on December 13, 2014
Don't forget to factor in the fact that there are genuine financial costs to living at home, and so while it probably doesn't cost as much as living on campus, it is also not exactly "free". The extra cost of food, utilities, and gas/wear-and-tear on your vehicle could easily amount to $4000/year.
posted by drlith at 6:23 AM on December 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by drlith at 6:23 AM on December 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
My son is in his junior year of living at home and attending school about 15 minutes away. He is home for dinner one night during the week. The other 4 nights he is on campus doing something. It is more work as a commuter student to be involved, but if you join a couple of clubs or club level sports teams you'll be just fine in the frield department.
posted by COD at 6:36 AM on December 13, 2014
posted by COD at 6:36 AM on December 13, 2014
I moved back with my parents during graduate school as it was so close to them (undergrad had been several hours away). My tuition was funded by my school but my stipend didn't cover rent so saving that cash meant I didn't have to work at the same time.
I love my parents and they were pleased to have me around, but honestly I think we were all relieved when I moved out into my own place after graduating. This was mostly due to the mis-match in our daily rhythms - they hadn't been to uni and were perplexed by the apparent randomness of my schedules - but also with me chafing slightly under the parent/child dynamic we kept falling into, despite my having lived independently for three years previously.
So I'd say it was ok for the short-term but any longer I probably would have opted to work and live off-campus. Our house was tiny though, it may not be an issue if your parents have the space.
posted by freya_lamb at 7:55 AM on December 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
I love my parents and they were pleased to have me around, but honestly I think we were all relieved when I moved out into my own place after graduating. This was mostly due to the mis-match in our daily rhythms - they hadn't been to uni and were perplexed by the apparent randomness of my schedules - but also with me chafing slightly under the parent/child dynamic we kept falling into, despite my having lived independently for three years previously.
So I'd say it was ok for the short-term but any longer I probably would have opted to work and live off-campus. Our house was tiny though, it may not be an issue if your parents have the space.
posted by freya_lamb at 7:55 AM on December 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
while it probably doesn't cost as much as living on campus, it is also not exactly "free". The extra cost of food, utilities, and gas/wear-and-tear on your vehicle could easily amount to $4000/year.
Yep. You're not going to be saving $13K. Assuming you consume $40 a week in groceries, that works out to $1200 over 30 weeks (just a rough estimate of the time you'll actually be at school). Your parents will still have to pay for the water and power that you use. You'll have to pay for gas and car maintenance. Additionally, there's the time factor - if your parents are making your meals that's one thing, but if you're making your own and then doing dishes or driving back to school to go out with your friends, that'll be time taken away from your studies, versus just showing up at the dining hall and grabbing a meal instantly. Then there's the commute time to school.
I think how much living in the dorms affects your social life will depend largely on the character of your school. Lots of schools are pretty much commuter schools, and students there will be accustomed to arranging social stuff with people that don't necessarily live in close proximity. If your school is like that, I wouldn't worry so much about missing out by living at home. The only downside might be that your place will not be a hangout for your friends, and you'll probably have to go out to do anything, even just getting a pizza and watching a movie. If your school is like mine, where students were required to live in the dorms for their first year and most people stayed on or near campus for later years, the social culture is much more likely to be based on just spontaneously grabbing a few people around and going out to do stuff on the spur of the moment. It sounds like you've already been in school for a while (based on this statement: I've lived in dorms for several years in university ), and at my school, all the real social stuff came out of the first year in the dorms - the people I still talk to regularly from school, 20 years later, are people that lived in my first year dorm. If you're not going into your first year, I think the social ramifications are less than they would be otherwise.
posted by LionIndex at 8:02 AM on December 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yep. You're not going to be saving $13K. Assuming you consume $40 a week in groceries, that works out to $1200 over 30 weeks (just a rough estimate of the time you'll actually be at school). Your parents will still have to pay for the water and power that you use. You'll have to pay for gas and car maintenance. Additionally, there's the time factor - if your parents are making your meals that's one thing, but if you're making your own and then doing dishes or driving back to school to go out with your friends, that'll be time taken away from your studies, versus just showing up at the dining hall and grabbing a meal instantly. Then there's the commute time to school.
I think how much living in the dorms affects your social life will depend largely on the character of your school. Lots of schools are pretty much commuter schools, and students there will be accustomed to arranging social stuff with people that don't necessarily live in close proximity. If your school is like that, I wouldn't worry so much about missing out by living at home. The only downside might be that your place will not be a hangout for your friends, and you'll probably have to go out to do anything, even just getting a pizza and watching a movie. If your school is like mine, where students were required to live in the dorms for their first year and most people stayed on or near campus for later years, the social culture is much more likely to be based on just spontaneously grabbing a few people around and going out to do stuff on the spur of the moment. It sounds like you've already been in school for a while (based on this statement: I've lived in dorms for several years in university ), and at my school, all the real social stuff came out of the first year in the dorms - the people I still talk to regularly from school, 20 years later, are people that lived in my first year dorm. If you're not going into your first year, I think the social ramifications are less than they would be otherwise.
posted by LionIndex at 8:02 AM on December 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Another vote for committing to one year on campus. This is assuming you're going to Smith or Wellesley or someplace like that, and that you are a fairly serious student. A lot of people move off campus after one year for whatever reason. But the first year is really good for establishing routines, relationships, etc.
You might also visit whatever dorm you are likely to be assigned to and ask what people there do. You may learn that the dorm empties out on the weekends as people travel to New York or someplace. That was the case in my dorm and it was fine by me, but it would be a help to find out.
posted by BibiRose at 10:59 AM on December 13, 2014
You might also visit whatever dorm you are likely to be assigned to and ask what people there do. You may learn that the dorm empties out on the weekends as people travel to New York or someplace. That was the case in my dorm and it was fine by me, but it would be a help to find out.
posted by BibiRose at 10:59 AM on December 13, 2014
One additional thing I'd like to add to my comment above: there was a commuter club at my university. I was an active member freshman year, but it insulated me from joining in other clubs. When the club imploded, I was left without that one social connection. So even what was supposed to be a social bridge for commuters became a bottleneck.
posted by notsnot at 11:14 AM on December 13, 2014
posted by notsnot at 11:14 AM on December 13, 2014
My daughter commutes to college in the city that we live in, but we really don't have much choice in the matter. It is mostly a commuter school, with very limited dorm options. Also, even if our daughter could get a dorm room -- it's by lottery, essentially -- it would be a stretch for us to afford it.
But if our daughter could get a dorm room and we could afford it, I would definitely be in favor of that option. We love our daughter and enjoy her company, but I also would love to share the apartment with just my husband. And as others have pointed out, it definitely costs us money to have our daughter living here, so we are not saving the full cost of dorm living.
It's too bad your parents won't weigh in on this. They may really not have an opinion, but this parent? Would love to have our apartment be just for my husband and myself, after all these years of raising kids!
Fwiw, it is also too bad that sharing an off-campus apartment or house is not an option. Our older child did that for his last two years of college, because his school had guaranteed dorm housing for the first two years only. One big advantage was that it was very much like real independent living, since they bought their own groceries, cooked their own meals, etc. And because it was right across the street from campus, he did not miss out on the college experience.
posted by merejane at 1:42 PM on December 13, 2014
But if our daughter could get a dorm room and we could afford it, I would definitely be in favor of that option. We love our daughter and enjoy her company, but I also would love to share the apartment with just my husband. And as others have pointed out, it definitely costs us money to have our daughter living here, so we are not saving the full cost of dorm living.
It's too bad your parents won't weigh in on this. They may really not have an opinion, but this parent? Would love to have our apartment be just for my husband and myself, after all these years of raising kids!
Fwiw, it is also too bad that sharing an off-campus apartment or house is not an option. Our older child did that for his last two years of college, because his school had guaranteed dorm housing for the first two years only. One big advantage was that it was very much like real independent living, since they bought their own groceries, cooked their own meals, etc. And because it was right across the street from campus, he did not miss out on the college experience.
posted by merejane at 1:42 PM on December 13, 2014
Having your own private space on campus is really helpful. You can escape during the day and take naps, do personal things, fetch things that you forgot to bring with you, get snacks, etc. I can never fully relax or sleep in public campus spaces like the library or student center because I worry that people will steal my stuff.
posted by cadge at 6:24 PM on December 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by cadge at 6:24 PM on December 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:12 PM on December 12, 2014 [2 favorites]