In search of red and yellow flags for new relationships
December 2, 2014 6:51 AM Subscribe
Is there something I should I be on the lookout for if I am dating a new guy with (a lot of) close female friends?
This is not a “can exes be friends?” or “can male/female friendships ever be platonic?” question. I agree that they can; I have some. I see no point to jealousy or insecurity when it comes to these friendships; I embrace the idea that if there’s no obstacle to being together, people are generally with the person in their life that they want to be dating. But I also think that as relationships evolve over time and become more intimate, your friendships (same-gendered and otherwise) evolve in turn, as you and your partner become each other’s primary emotional support.
But are there early signs that such a friendship is really the platonic, healthy kind? Or that it’s not? Are there things you can tell by the way he talks about them or interactions they have that should put you on guard? In my last two relationships I had an early feeling that these guys had female friendships with unhealthy boundaries, and I let my “but friendships are possible!” beliefs override those instincts until I had proof of the contrary. For example, they both characterized these women as "needy" and "high maintenance"--very different from me--but I told myself I have needy friends also and it's no big deal. Now I feel like I waited too long to react in both situations and I’m worried that my instincts could be even more thrown off because of these experiences.
Obviously, openness and communication about these friendships is key. And meeting the friends and getting to know them yourself helps also. Both of my exes were pretty forthright about the existence of these friendships and the fact that some were exes. But I never met any of these friends—with Ex Boyfriend #1, we more or less broke up because his ex said she didn’t want to meet me and he obliged, and my breakup with Ex Boyfriend #2 was about me feeling emotionally disconnected from him, in part because he talked about our/his problems with his friends instead of with me—friends I had never met, because they live on the opposite coast, where he lived before he moved here. So they were just sort of buzzing around in the background, and I didn’t feel great about it, but I didn’t feel right saying, “I just have this feeling…” so I ignored my gut until I had facts to confirm my discomfort.
I’m in my mid-30’s, and most guys I meet have a lot of friends/exes (as do I). I don’t want to overcorrect when the next guy comes along; if he mentions a female friend, I don’t want to have an insecurity where there wasn’t one before. So, I’m wondering—are there universal yellow or red flags to look out for early on? Am I in a pattern of attracting a particular “type” that I need to break? Do I need to just trust my gut more? Or is there nothing to be generalized here and these were just two dud relationships and I should just proceed with my usual wait-and-see approach next time?
This is not a “can exes be friends?” or “can male/female friendships ever be platonic?” question. I agree that they can; I have some. I see no point to jealousy or insecurity when it comes to these friendships; I embrace the idea that if there’s no obstacle to being together, people are generally with the person in their life that they want to be dating. But I also think that as relationships evolve over time and become more intimate, your friendships (same-gendered and otherwise) evolve in turn, as you and your partner become each other’s primary emotional support.
But are there early signs that such a friendship is really the platonic, healthy kind? Or that it’s not? Are there things you can tell by the way he talks about them or interactions they have that should put you on guard? In my last two relationships I had an early feeling that these guys had female friendships with unhealthy boundaries, and I let my “but friendships are possible!” beliefs override those instincts until I had proof of the contrary. For example, they both characterized these women as "needy" and "high maintenance"--very different from me--but I told myself I have needy friends also and it's no big deal. Now I feel like I waited too long to react in both situations and I’m worried that my instincts could be even more thrown off because of these experiences.
Obviously, openness and communication about these friendships is key. And meeting the friends and getting to know them yourself helps also. Both of my exes were pretty forthright about the existence of these friendships and the fact that some were exes. But I never met any of these friends—with Ex Boyfriend #1, we more or less broke up because his ex said she didn’t want to meet me and he obliged, and my breakup with Ex Boyfriend #2 was about me feeling emotionally disconnected from him, in part because he talked about our/his problems with his friends instead of with me—friends I had never met, because they live on the opposite coast, where he lived before he moved here. So they were just sort of buzzing around in the background, and I didn’t feel great about it, but I didn’t feel right saying, “I just have this feeling…” so I ignored my gut until I had facts to confirm my discomfort.
I’m in my mid-30’s, and most guys I meet have a lot of friends/exes (as do I). I don’t want to overcorrect when the next guy comes along; if he mentions a female friend, I don’t want to have an insecurity where there wasn’t one before. So, I’m wondering—are there universal yellow or red flags to look out for early on? Am I in a pattern of attracting a particular “type” that I need to break? Do I need to just trust my gut more? Or is there nothing to be generalized here and these were just two dud relationships and I should just proceed with my usual wait-and-see approach next time?
There's no particular red flag. Trust your gut.
When I met Husbunny he was fresh out of a relationship. She works for the UN and was in East Timor on a mission. He spend a day off running around getting her car serviced, inspected and registered for her. Some people might be upset, because that's a lot to ask a person, but to me, that seemed like the work of a Mench. I was right. He had no feelings for her, he did it because he's a nice guy and he knew that he really was the only person who could take care of it for her. They're still friends on Facebook. She comes up in conversation about once a year.
My point is that at NO time did I feel threatened or uneasy, because it was obvious that he was crazy about me and that he was over her.
You saw the red and yellow flags, you felt that tug in your gut, and you ignored it.
So you're radar works fine, just listen to it.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:00 AM on December 2, 2014 [6 favorites]
When I met Husbunny he was fresh out of a relationship. She works for the UN and was in East Timor on a mission. He spend a day off running around getting her car serviced, inspected and registered for her. Some people might be upset, because that's a lot to ask a person, but to me, that seemed like the work of a Mench. I was right. He had no feelings for her, he did it because he's a nice guy and he knew that he really was the only person who could take care of it for her. They're still friends on Facebook. She comes up in conversation about once a year.
My point is that at NO time did I feel threatened or uneasy, because it was obvious that he was crazy about me and that he was over her.
You saw the red and yellow flags, you felt that tug in your gut, and you ignored it.
So you're radar works fine, just listen to it.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:00 AM on December 2, 2014 [6 favorites]
In my experience, your being excluded from the friendship with the ex or the female friend is a huge red flag.
posted by Dragonness at 7:01 AM on December 2, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by Dragonness at 7:01 AM on December 2, 2014 [6 favorites]
What
no
Men with female friends are men who tend not to be giant misogynists who will denigrate anything you like by default, or step into every other trap of privileged ignorant masculinity. Because they're around women, they talk to women, they might have some idea of what women go through in the world.
When a guy I'm into mentions having female friends, I consider that a green flag that says GO RIGHT AHEAD, THIS GUY HAS A GOOD ATTITUDE ABOUT GENDER. The yellow flag, for me, is a guy who is completely immersed in masculine culture and looks at my interests as innately less-than simply because they're not on the list of approved dudely hobbies.
However.
1. I think you're burying the lede with this question. The issue isn't that a guy has female friends, but that he has bad boundaries with his female friends. For one thing, it's possible to have bad boundaries with male friends, too. For another thing, ugh, yeah, there are definitely people who sleep with folks and then claim they're "just friends", as if a relationship was entirely in the word you use to describe it and not what it actually is.
2. I would be concerned about a guy with a lot of female friends wherein he is the big strong manly man who has to go over and kill spiders or change flat tires. Which is something I'm getting from your references that these guys had female friends they considered "needy". I have male friends, but I also am self-reliant and pretty much never "need" them or use them as tools for activities I would prefer not to do for myself.
3. Another lede-burying thing: is what you're actually concerned about guys who'll cheat on you or lie about the degree to which they're exclusive? Because that can happen even with women these men don't describe as "friends".
In terms of red flags and things to look out for in the future, I would say that, when meeting his friends, look at how healthy those relationships seem to be. Guys who bad-mouth their female friends by labeling them "high maintenance", or who put their friends before you in all regards, or who constantly have boundary issues with female friends, are not great for you to date.
You should trust your gut by calling shitty behavior as what it is. If somebody's jumping out of bed with you to go change a lightbulb at a friend's house, you do not want to date that person. Regardless of the gender of said friend.
posted by Sara C. at 7:05 AM on December 2, 2014 [17 favorites]
no
Men with female friends are men who tend not to be giant misogynists who will denigrate anything you like by default, or step into every other trap of privileged ignorant masculinity. Because they're around women, they talk to women, they might have some idea of what women go through in the world.
When a guy I'm into mentions having female friends, I consider that a green flag that says GO RIGHT AHEAD, THIS GUY HAS A GOOD ATTITUDE ABOUT GENDER. The yellow flag, for me, is a guy who is completely immersed in masculine culture and looks at my interests as innately less-than simply because they're not on the list of approved dudely hobbies.
However.
1. I think you're burying the lede with this question. The issue isn't that a guy has female friends, but that he has bad boundaries with his female friends. For one thing, it's possible to have bad boundaries with male friends, too. For another thing, ugh, yeah, there are definitely people who sleep with folks and then claim they're "just friends", as if a relationship was entirely in the word you use to describe it and not what it actually is.
2. I would be concerned about a guy with a lot of female friends wherein he is the big strong manly man who has to go over and kill spiders or change flat tires. Which is something I'm getting from your references that these guys had female friends they considered "needy". I have male friends, but I also am self-reliant and pretty much never "need" them or use them as tools for activities I would prefer not to do for myself.
3. Another lede-burying thing: is what you're actually concerned about guys who'll cheat on you or lie about the degree to which they're exclusive? Because that can happen even with women these men don't describe as "friends".
In terms of red flags and things to look out for in the future, I would say that, when meeting his friends, look at how healthy those relationships seem to be. Guys who bad-mouth their female friends by labeling them "high maintenance", or who put their friends before you in all regards, or who constantly have boundary issues with female friends, are not great for you to date.
You should trust your gut by calling shitty behavior as what it is. If somebody's jumping out of bed with you to go change a lightbulb at a friend's house, you do not want to date that person. Regardless of the gender of said friend.
posted by Sara C. at 7:05 AM on December 2, 2014 [17 favorites]
If he wants you to be friends with his friends (male or female), that's good. If not, that's a huge red flag. Either he doesn't take your relationship seriously, or he's hiding something.
One of my best friends is a former ex-girlfriend (from almost a decade ago at this point, but we've been friends longer than basically anyone else I know). I made a huge point of getting my fiancee to hang out with her so they could get to know each other, and as far as I can tell, they get along great. They're even probably going to hang out for a girls night soon.
posted by empath at 7:06 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
One of my best friends is a former ex-girlfriend (from almost a decade ago at this point, but we've been friends longer than basically anyone else I know). I made a huge point of getting my fiancee to hang out with her so they could get to know each other, and as far as I can tell, they get along great. They're even probably going to hang out for a girls night soon.
posted by empath at 7:06 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure this is a problem with exes or opposite-sex friends. It sounds more like you're looking to integrate lives and these two weren't. I'm of the opinion that the line between "dating" and being "partners" is when you integrate your lives - shared friends, overlapping social activities, etc. And in general, talking about you instead of talking to you is a flag even if there are no exes at all.
posted by headnsouth at 7:16 AM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by headnsouth at 7:16 AM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
I couldn't agree more with Empath's statement above.
Generally speaking, if there's nothing to hide, your boyfriend will want you to be friends with his girl-friend, or at the VERY least, introduce you.
If she acts crazy during the meeting - red flag
If he acts weird during the meeting - red flag
If he starts seeing her without telling you - red flag
posted by JenThePro at 7:22 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Generally speaking, if there's nothing to hide, your boyfriend will want you to be friends with his girl-friend, or at the VERY least, introduce you.
If she acts crazy during the meeting - red flag
If he acts weird during the meeting - red flag
If he starts seeing her without telling you - red flag
posted by JenThePro at 7:22 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Well, it sounds like you may not always have been dating guys who had female friends; maybe some of these "needy" friends were more of a women-I'd-kind-of-like-to-hook-up-with or women-I'm-having-a-flirty-emotional-relationship-with. It's certainly possible to have the kind of conversations with this kind of "friend" that are designed to create almost a sense of alliance between the friend and the speaker against the girlfriend - I know someone who does this, actually, and it gives me hella creeps. Like, don't run your girlfriend down to me unless you're looking at breaking up - I'll be glad to talk about your relationship with you, but I am not your ally in trashing on another woman. And there are plenty of people who will keep a friend around knowing that friend has a huge crush on them and enjoying the friend's attention and jealousy - again, I've known several people who do this and it's creepy - and perhaps that's where your ex's friend who would not meet you was at.
Men who have women friends, yes, that's great. Men who....have women in their lives who exist for them primarily as imaginary hook-ups or emotional affairs, that's not so great. And those guys do exist.
I'd say that guys who have women friends treat those friends as they do other friends and talk about them as they talk about other friends. I know some people who complain a lot about friends in an affectionate way, but I'd be put off if a guy's women friends only were "needy", etc. Does the guy share the same kinds of stuff about his women friends with you as he shares about his other friends? And what kind of stuff is it? Do you know about as much about his women friends as his other friends, or does he either keep them dead secret or creepily overshare about their personal sexual or romantic issues?
On the one hand, this is the old original "your mileage may vary" situation - there are lots of ways to handle friendships. On the other hand, I definitely know people - both men and women - who create weird social relations by running down their partners to their friends, seeming more emotionally invested in helping out a friend than helping a partner, seem to want to have a lot of para-romantic emotional involvement with "friends" while still calling it a friendship rather than a crush, etc.
I'd say, see if you can meet friends as early as seems appropriate and judge from there.
posted by Frowner at 7:29 AM on December 2, 2014 [11 favorites]
Men who have women friends, yes, that's great. Men who....have women in their lives who exist for them primarily as imaginary hook-ups or emotional affairs, that's not so great. And those guys do exist.
I'd say that guys who have women friends treat those friends as they do other friends and talk about them as they talk about other friends. I know some people who complain a lot about friends in an affectionate way, but I'd be put off if a guy's women friends only were "needy", etc. Does the guy share the same kinds of stuff about his women friends with you as he shares about his other friends? And what kind of stuff is it? Do you know about as much about his women friends as his other friends, or does he either keep them dead secret or creepily overshare about their personal sexual or romantic issues?
On the one hand, this is the old original "your mileage may vary" situation - there are lots of ways to handle friendships. On the other hand, I definitely know people - both men and women - who create weird social relations by running down their partners to their friends, seeming more emotionally invested in helping out a friend than helping a partner, seem to want to have a lot of para-romantic emotional involvement with "friends" while still calling it a friendship rather than a crush, etc.
I'd say, see if you can meet friends as early as seems appropriate and judge from there.
posted by Frowner at 7:29 AM on December 2, 2014 [11 favorites]
But are there early signs that such a friendship is really the platonic, healthy kind? Or that it’s not? Are there things you can tell by the way he talks about them or interactions they have that should put you on guard? In my last two relationships I had an early feeling that these guys had female friendships with unhealthy boundaries, and I let my “but friendships are possible!” beliefs override those instincts until I had proof of the contrary. For example, they both characterized these women as "needy" and "high maintenance"--very different from me--but I told myself I have needy friends also and it's no big deal.
IMO, the red flags in your previous relationships weren't that these guys had a lot of friends who are women, it's that they would proactively choose to use loaded, judgmental terms like "needy" and "high maintenance" to describe them. This is just a hair's breadth from a guy describing an ex, presumably someone he used to love and almost certainly someone he used to sleep with, as "crazy" or "bitchy." When it comes to men who are given to spouting that kind of stuff, my experience is that the problems usually aren't (and weren't) with their friends or exes.
That said, do watch out when it comes to thinking of yourself as a Cool Girl or defining yourself as a person who is categorically not ever needy or high maintenance, because manipulative dudes will run that one to the everloving goalposts as soon as they hear you say it. You'd be amazed at how much totally innocuous behavior gets classified as "needy" -- or "bitchy" or "crazy," for that matter -- by men who are just looking for leeway to be able to pull a fast one on you. Once you let a guy get it into your head that stuff as humdrum and banal as wanting to meet his friends or daring to ask where he's sleeping that night are behaviors reserved for "high maintenance" women (and you told him you weren't high maintenance at all, so what gives?!), you're at risk of gaslighting and doubting the hell out of yourself and your own judgment for years to come.
In very broad strokes, a guy who has multiple solid long-term platonic friendships with women is probably going to be a pretty good guy -- just ask him if you can meet them and see what happens next. If he emits an enthusiastic "Yes, of course, we can go to [fun place everyone will enjoy]!" you're almost certainly in the clear. If he gets real uncomfortable and hems and haws, he probably either just broke up with one of them or is currently in some kind of FWB situation. If he adamantly refuses to let you meet any of them (or vice versa) for the indefinite future, he's at least trying to get up to no good, like, 95% of the time. And if he delicately and quietly engineers various situations in his life to ensure that your and their paths will never, ever intersect, I'd feel confident bumping that percentage up to 100.
posted by divined by radio at 7:32 AM on December 2, 2014 [12 favorites]
IMO, the red flags in your previous relationships weren't that these guys had a lot of friends who are women, it's that they would proactively choose to use loaded, judgmental terms like "needy" and "high maintenance" to describe them. This is just a hair's breadth from a guy describing an ex, presumably someone he used to love and almost certainly someone he used to sleep with, as "crazy" or "bitchy." When it comes to men who are given to spouting that kind of stuff, my experience is that the problems usually aren't (and weren't) with their friends or exes.
That said, do watch out when it comes to thinking of yourself as a Cool Girl or defining yourself as a person who is categorically not ever needy or high maintenance, because manipulative dudes will run that one to the everloving goalposts as soon as they hear you say it. You'd be amazed at how much totally innocuous behavior gets classified as "needy" -- or "bitchy" or "crazy," for that matter -- by men who are just looking for leeway to be able to pull a fast one on you. Once you let a guy get it into your head that stuff as humdrum and banal as wanting to meet his friends or daring to ask where he's sleeping that night are behaviors reserved for "high maintenance" women (and you told him you weren't high maintenance at all, so what gives?!), you're at risk of gaslighting and doubting the hell out of yourself and your own judgment for years to come.
In very broad strokes, a guy who has multiple solid long-term platonic friendships with women is probably going to be a pretty good guy -- just ask him if you can meet them and see what happens next. If he emits an enthusiastic "Yes, of course, we can go to [fun place everyone will enjoy]!" you're almost certainly in the clear. If he gets real uncomfortable and hems and haws, he probably either just broke up with one of them or is currently in some kind of FWB situation. If he adamantly refuses to let you meet any of them (or vice versa) for the indefinite future, he's at least trying to get up to no good, like, 95% of the time. And if he delicately and quietly engineers various situations in his life to ensure that your and their paths will never, ever intersect, I'd feel confident bumping that percentage up to 100.
posted by divined by radio at 7:32 AM on December 2, 2014 [12 favorites]
I would evaluate his quantity and quality of male friends first and then compare that to his female friends. The men that I know that maintain healthy female friendships with good boundaries are the ones with multiple, strong male friendships.
Also I agree with the idea of introductions with existing people in his life.
posted by Setec Astronomy at 7:33 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also I agree with the idea of introductions with existing people in his life.
posted by Setec Astronomy at 7:33 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
It depends on the friends, actually. I know plenty of gullible, sweet guys who like the attention of having female friends. They are usually pretty clueless to one or two of the friends who have designs on them. These clingy women don't want to let him go so they sabotage all of his relationships with other women. They are manipulative and will pretend to be your friend in an effort to get more information to use against you. If none of his friends are like these women, then you are fine. Red flags would be:
1) He talks about her daily.
2) They talk a lot on the phone and she is always sending him texts.
3) She likes every post on his fb page.
4) She always has some major drama that only he can help her through.
5) She advises him on what to wear and gives him dating advice.
posted by myselfasme at 7:57 AM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
1) He talks about her daily.
2) They talk a lot on the phone and she is always sending him texts.
3) She likes every post on his fb page.
4) She always has some major drama that only he can help her through.
5) She advises him on what to wear and gives him dating advice.
posted by myselfasme at 7:57 AM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
I like this idea of green flags, and I think one bright green flag in a relationship is that you can fuck this up a little bit and the guy will roll with it. It's natural and okay to get jealous or insecure around the other women in your partner's life. If you can express those anxieties and the guy can not only reassure you but is willing to accommodate those worries to a reasonable extent, without going overboard, that is a really good sign.
Like, you say, "I feel weird bringing this up, but Sally and you seem really close, and you've got a lot of inside jokes, so I sometimes feel kind of awkward and left out when the three of us get together. Was there ever anything between you two?"
Option 1: "GEEZ, no, come on, why would you ever think that? She's my best friend! I've known her since grade school! No way! That's ridiculous!" And the very next day, he makes plans with Sally, and when he leaves to go meet up with her, he makes a little joke about how you shouldn't worry, they're not going to go MAKE OUT or anything, and then when the three of you hang out together, the dynamic is exactly the same as it was before, and it's fine, you know he's not cheating on you (you really do) but it still makes you feel sort of shitty to watch them together, even though you can't put your finger on why, but it's no big deal, you're cool, this kind of uncomfortable jealousy is just sort of par for the course in a relationship, right, and if you were to stop him from seeing Sally, that would be inexcusably controlling & needy, and you know your emotions are not justified, so all you can do is tamp them down and hope they go away eventually.
Option 2: "Oh, man, no...there isn't anything between me and Sally. I guess when I first met her, I maybe had a little bit of a crush on her, but that's completely gone now. I promise. But I'm sorry if you felt left out!" And then even though usually he and Sally hang out every Thursday, this week he decides it might be more fun to go to that restaurant you guys have been eyeing for a while, and then the next week, when the three of you hang out, you can tell that he's making a conscious effort to include you - he keeps his arm around your shoulder, and when Sally starts riffing on the old days, he pauses and explains things to you, so you can keep up, and you feel reassured and loved.
In both examples, the actual relationship with Sally is the same - it's a slightly flirty platonic relationship. There are no red flags in the first example that signal he's lying or about to cheat on you or anything, but it's pretty obvious that the second relationship is the one I'd prefer to be in.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 8:55 AM on December 2, 2014 [18 favorites]
Like, you say, "I feel weird bringing this up, but Sally and you seem really close, and you've got a lot of inside jokes, so I sometimes feel kind of awkward and left out when the three of us get together. Was there ever anything between you two?"
Option 1: "GEEZ, no, come on, why would you ever think that? She's my best friend! I've known her since grade school! No way! That's ridiculous!" And the very next day, he makes plans with Sally, and when he leaves to go meet up with her, he makes a little joke about how you shouldn't worry, they're not going to go MAKE OUT or anything, and then when the three of you hang out together, the dynamic is exactly the same as it was before, and it's fine, you know he's not cheating on you (you really do) but it still makes you feel sort of shitty to watch them together, even though you can't put your finger on why, but it's no big deal, you're cool, this kind of uncomfortable jealousy is just sort of par for the course in a relationship, right, and if you were to stop him from seeing Sally, that would be inexcusably controlling & needy, and you know your emotions are not justified, so all you can do is tamp them down and hope they go away eventually.
Option 2: "Oh, man, no...there isn't anything between me and Sally. I guess when I first met her, I maybe had a little bit of a crush on her, but that's completely gone now. I promise. But I'm sorry if you felt left out!" And then even though usually he and Sally hang out every Thursday, this week he decides it might be more fun to go to that restaurant you guys have been eyeing for a while, and then the next week, when the three of you hang out, you can tell that he's making a conscious effort to include you - he keeps his arm around your shoulder, and when Sally starts riffing on the old days, he pauses and explains things to you, so you can keep up, and you feel reassured and loved.
In both examples, the actual relationship with Sally is the same - it's a slightly flirty platonic relationship. There are no red flags in the first example that signal he's lying or about to cheat on you or anything, but it's pretty obvious that the second relationship is the one I'd prefer to be in.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 8:55 AM on December 2, 2014 [18 favorites]
Are you asking in regards to statistics or something more psychological? Statistically speaking just for a guy to have many close female friends is a "red flag." Statistics clearly show that men who do cheat way more often. However, your bf is not a number and you can't just dump him because of statistical data. If you were looking for red flags less data-like, well, I've found that a huge red flag is when a person says that "all" people do something. In this case "cheating". People who say "Everyone lies all the time" Are rampant liars themselves. People who say "Everyone cheats." are rampant cheaters. People who say, "Relationships are incredibly difficult." Tend to create drama and be difficult in relationships etc, etc. They speak this way because they are justifying to themselves their own behavior inclinations. I can only speak for myself but this test has never, never failed me in my life. I have yet to meet someone who speaks in this way and isn't actually talking about themselves (whether they realize it or not). So that would be a major red flag for me.
posted by rancher at 2:04 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by rancher at 2:04 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
How you act around the ex can get you excluded. If you make them uncomfortable they may prefer to meet up without you. That does not automatically mean shenanigans are in play, however.
posted by trinity8-director at 2:14 PM on December 2, 2014
posted by trinity8-director at 2:14 PM on December 2, 2014
Regarding red flags, I think Husbunny's "There's no particular red flag. Trust your gut. " covers everything that needs to be said. Most people (80-90%?) have pretty accurate red flag sensing equipment because it is something we are hardwired with as social animals. Choosing to ignore or face the signals is another story.
However, I am struggling to see where the red flags were in the dud relationships you are talking about.
Ex Boyfriend #1, we more or less broke up because his ex said she didn’t want to meet me and he obliged
That is not seeing a red flag, that is breaking up with someone who doesn't value you. The problem there is right out in the open, not some cryptic behavior that you finally deciphered as a red flag.
Ex Boyfriend #2 was about me feeling emotionally disconnected from him, in part because he talked about our/his problems with his friends instead of with me—friends I had never met—friends I had never met, because they live on the opposite coast,... so I ignored my gut until I had facts to confirm my discomfort.
It is entirely possible and likely that he had these long standing relationships (friendships) with these people that had became a support system for him after he moved away. It is likely that because of their shared history of providing support, he felt understood and comfortable leaning on them. It is unreasonable to expect someone to reconfigure their friendships to pipeline all of their needs for help into the person they are dating. Also, many people don't want to do that early on so as not to strangle the relationship in it's crib, so to speak.
I speak for myself when I say that if I started dating someone and got a whiff that they felt threatened by friendships with people across the continent, it would be a massive turnoff. Reeks of insecurity->Interest levels go down->Relationship dynamic cools a little bit->Fuels more insecurity in the partner->Partner acts out in subtle ways to probe and confirm insecurities->Interest levels fall further... And right there you have a vicious circle that will kill any relationship, no matter how promising.
Bottom line is that someone is either going to be crazy about you and love you no matter what configuration of friendships are in their life or they won't, and it is nothing you can control by analyzing their behavior to death.
posted by incolorinred at 3:27 PM on December 2, 2014
However, I am struggling to see where the red flags were in the dud relationships you are talking about.
Ex Boyfriend #1, we more or less broke up because his ex said she didn’t want to meet me and he obliged
That is not seeing a red flag, that is breaking up with someone who doesn't value you. The problem there is right out in the open, not some cryptic behavior that you finally deciphered as a red flag.
Ex Boyfriend #2 was about me feeling emotionally disconnected from him, in part because he talked about our/his problems with his friends instead of with me—friends I had never met—friends I had never met, because they live on the opposite coast,... so I ignored my gut until I had facts to confirm my discomfort.
It is entirely possible and likely that he had these long standing relationships (friendships) with these people that had became a support system for him after he moved away. It is likely that because of their shared history of providing support, he felt understood and comfortable leaning on them. It is unreasonable to expect someone to reconfigure their friendships to pipeline all of their needs for help into the person they are dating. Also, many people don't want to do that early on so as not to strangle the relationship in it's crib, so to speak.
I speak for myself when I say that if I started dating someone and got a whiff that they felt threatened by friendships with people across the continent, it would be a massive turnoff. Reeks of insecurity->Interest levels go down->Relationship dynamic cools a little bit->Fuels more insecurity in the partner->Partner acts out in subtle ways to probe and confirm insecurities->Interest levels fall further... And right there you have a vicious circle that will kill any relationship, no matter how promising.
Bottom line is that someone is either going to be crazy about you and love you no matter what configuration of friendships are in their life or they won't, and it is nothing you can control by analyzing their behavior to death.
posted by incolorinred at 3:27 PM on December 2, 2014
You saw the red and yellow flags, you felt that tug in your gut, and you ignored it.
So you're radar works fine, just listen to it.
I came in to say this (but not as succinctly.) Instead of offering up a personal anecdote I'm going to suggest you pretend this is someone else's question, answer it, and then listen to your advice because it sounds like you are already ahead of the game.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:15 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
So you're radar works fine, just listen to it.
I came in to say this (but not as succinctly.) Instead of offering up a personal anecdote I'm going to suggest you pretend this is someone else's question, answer it, and then listen to your advice because it sounds like you are already ahead of the game.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:15 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
I agree with pretentiousilliterate. It's not about the friends; it's about how the guy treats you. Does he take your concerns seriously? Does he accommodate you?
He can be sleeping with six different female friends when he meets you, or have no female friends at all -- it doesn't matter. What matters is what happens when you tell him that you feel a bit jealous. Does he accommodate you or not?
Gottman did some great research on this, as usual: "Husband's willingness to be influenced by wife and share power is a key predictor of a happy marriage."
posted by 3491again at 9:31 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
He can be sleeping with six different female friends when he meets you, or have no female friends at all -- it doesn't matter. What matters is what happens when you tell him that you feel a bit jealous. Does he accommodate you or not?
Gottman did some great research on this, as usual: "Husband's willingness to be influenced by wife and share power is a key predictor of a happy marriage."
posted by 3491again at 9:31 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
I recently (VERY recently) had a female friend suddenly turn into a FWB and I have been processing that a little bit as I've read this thread. Let's call her D.
I see D every six months or so when I'm back in my hometown. We'll have coffee and gossip about our mutual friends, our careers, our families, her boyfriend if she has one. We flirted in a bar a decade ago, the last time I was single, but hadn't ever touched with intent, if you know what I mean. We communicate extremely well but I wouldn't have told you that I was particularly attracted to her a week ago. I never revealed any of the problems in my marriage, presenting a united happy front like I was doing for almost everyone in my life for years.
This time I was telling her about how when I was ready to start dating again, I felt like I now understood myself and was better with women and knew what I was looking for and I felt like it would go pretty well. And she arched her eyebrow and said, "Why don't you tell me more about how you're sooo great with women" and it was like shaking a snow globe on the whole friendship, I could see the new angles and dimensions that opened up for us and how to navigate to what we later agreed were some extremely high quality benefits.
D isn't the first female friend who I've talked to openly about the end of my marriage but she's the first one I wound up in bed with. I can now look back on our friendship and see how we were attracted to each other and compatible, relative to other platonic friends. But that's a retrospective judgment and it only happened because I had put the boundaries away without realizing it, being physically lonely and mentally available.
TL;DR: Firm boundaries can keep friendships firmly platonic without even any extra special work based on recognizing a mutual attraction, just by applying them consistently across the board.
posted by Kwine at 2:06 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
I see D every six months or so when I'm back in my hometown. We'll have coffee and gossip about our mutual friends, our careers, our families, her boyfriend if she has one. We flirted in a bar a decade ago, the last time I was single, but hadn't ever touched with intent, if you know what I mean. We communicate extremely well but I wouldn't have told you that I was particularly attracted to her a week ago. I never revealed any of the problems in my marriage, presenting a united happy front like I was doing for almost everyone in my life for years.
This time I was telling her about how when I was ready to start dating again, I felt like I now understood myself and was better with women and knew what I was looking for and I felt like it would go pretty well. And she arched her eyebrow and said, "Why don't you tell me more about how you're sooo great with women" and it was like shaking a snow globe on the whole friendship, I could see the new angles and dimensions that opened up for us and how to navigate to what we later agreed were some extremely high quality benefits.
D isn't the first female friend who I've talked to openly about the end of my marriage but she's the first one I wound up in bed with. I can now look back on our friendship and see how we were attracted to each other and compatible, relative to other platonic friends. But that's a retrospective judgment and it only happened because I had put the boundaries away without realizing it, being physically lonely and mentally available.
TL;DR: Firm boundaries can keep friendships firmly platonic without even any extra special work based on recognizing a mutual attraction, just by applying them consistently across the board.
posted by Kwine at 2:06 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
« Older Brain hacks for the mildly stalked? | Can I find a decently-priced men's winter jacket... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
I happen to disagree with that sentiment, as I think it's important to have multiple sources of close emotional support and not become too dependent on one person for all your emotional needs. Consequently, someone who agreed with the statement would probably think that my opposite-sex relationships did not have healthy boundaries because I would continue to talk about personal things with those opposite-sex friends, spend a lot of time with them, go on vacation with them, etc.
posted by unannihilated at 6:59 AM on December 2, 2014 [11 favorites]