Is it in-humane to keep a dog in the yard?

November 14, 2005 4:50 PM

Is it in-humane to keep a dog(s) outside in the yard (with lots of walks, and time spent together outside)? My wife and I would like to adopt one or two dogs. Because she has pretty significant allergies to dogs, the dog would spend most, if not all of its time outside. That said, we're pretty attentive, caring people and we'll definitely take the dogs on lots of walks and we have a big park right behind our house and we also spend a lot of time in our yard gardening etc so the dog wouldn't be left out there alone. In addition, we plan on either creating a bed in the garage or a dog-house so the dogs could definitely be protected from the elements. We've talked to a couple of rescue organizations who simply won't allow us to adopt given that the dog will be primarily an outside dog. We both love dogs and believe we can provide a good home. I'd love to get feedback from others about whether it is in-humane to have dogs be outside, but well taken care of. My father in law argues that, as long as we're getting the dog from the pound, that we'll be giving them a much better life, but I don't want to use that fact just as a cop-out and not provide a good living environment.
posted by krudiger to pets & animals (42 comments total)

Where do you live? An outside dog in FL is not the same as an outside dog in MA.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:53 PM on November 14, 2005 [1 favorite]

1) What area/what sort of climate do you live in?

2) Have you considered some of the less-allergenic breeds, like poodles, or seen if your wife reacts to them? You could get one from a breed rescue organization.
posted by needs more cowbell at 4:56 PM on November 14, 2005

Others may disagree with me, but I believe it is inhumane to leave the dog outside. Dogs are pack animals. By nature, they desire to be part of your pack (family) and live in the house with you. I would not recommend leaving a dog outside on any permanent basis.

Also, read about backyard dogs.
posted by knave at 5:01 PM on November 14, 2005

I know some people who keep their dogs outside, with varying degrees of success. I also know that dogs are pack animals, and in general, want to be with their pack (i.e., you.) Being kept outside seems like exile to them, and can create new problems (like excessive, neighbor-annoying barking.) In fact, I've read in dog training books that you should have your dog sleep in the same room where you sleep, as it gives the dog an extended period of time to bond with your scent.

I have a dog, and if the living situation changed to one where we couldn't have him in the house, I think I'd rather try to find him a new home, I know that my dog, at least, would be miserable and stressed out being kept in the yard all the time. If you and your wife have your hearts set on a dog, looking for a less-allergenic dog that you could have inside seems like the best answer.
posted by ambrosia at 5:05 PM on November 14, 2005

Dogs left outside all the time feel like they are being kept from their pack (you and your wife), its unnatural and confusing to them. Having two would help to mitigate that some but the dogs will be more likely to bond with each other and less so with you and your wife. They are also more likely to have discipline issues.

Your father-in-law is wrong about dogs from the pound being better off in a home, any home, than at the pound.

Have you looked into any dogs that do not shed that might not invoke your wife's allergies? Some dogs are much cleaner than others in this regard.

Or is there a way to set up part of the house for the dog(s) so they can be inside and part of the family but not causing your wife's allergies to go insane?
posted by fenriq at 5:06 PM on November 14, 2005

I know dogs that would be thrilled to be outside, in nature, frequently visited by their people. I also know dogs who hate being outside and immediately do their business and whine and complain to be let in as soon as possible. The thing is, it's really hard to know what kind of dog you'll have unless you're working with a shelter that really spends the time to get to know their dogs and make sure their adoptive homes are suited to them. No, I don't automatically think it's inhumane to keep dogs outside. However, I think it takes a certain kind of dog to prefer that kind of environment, and unless you know for certain that a particular dog does, it would be unfair to that dog to force it.
posted by ferociouskitty at 5:07 PM on November 14, 2005

I've worked in a shelter and I strongly agree that this would be inhumane. Worse than that, if you could not keep the dog it would almost certainly be euthanized.

I once attempted to adopt a dog that had only been kept outside and it just did not work. The dog did not understand home life, loathed other dogs, and had significant food aggression that made him unsafe. Sad for everyone involved.
posted by nev at 5:08 PM on November 14, 2005

If you wife would really like a dog despite her allergies problems, perhaps she could consider immunotherapy or other allergy treatments?

I've always had miserable allergies to just about anything and (we're not talking just sniffles but hives, swelling, wheezing, etc.) My kitties and I coexist peacefully because of my allergy meds and an array of HEPA filters.
posted by divka at 5:14 PM on November 14, 2005

I wouldn't, in your shoes.

First, the better-life bit is a bit of a red herring. For some pound dogs, you could beat the shit out of them three times a week and burn them with cigarettes every Friday and still give them a better life than they'd had before, but that's no excuse.

Second, if you are outside doing anything with the dog, you will be bringing dander back into the house with you and setting off your wife's allergies. If she can live with that, she can probably live with a dog in the house. If she can't live with a dog in the house, she probably can't live with you bringing dander in every day.

Third, you should take your clue from the rescues. It is their whole reason for being to place dogs in loving homes, and they think that you wouldn't qualify. That shouldn't send you to the pound, that should give you pause about whether you really want a dog.

On the other hand, it's not like you'd be worse than Hitler or anything.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:15 PM on November 14, 2005

Wow. In my country many dogs, particularly working dogs, sleep outside and may never be allowed in the house at all, or at least are banned from areas like bedrooms, on grounds of hygiene and discipline. You guys would all be considered big softies by New Zealand country people.

Having said that... krudiger, you sound like nice people who would be unable to cope with a dog who wants to be with you, so I'd say your wife's allergies simply put dogs out of the question. It takes a hard heart to be firm about outdoor dogs.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 5:15 PM on November 14, 2005

i_am_joe's_spleen: A working dog is something entirely different than a suburban dog doing nothing in a confined space for hours on end. Working dogs spend time with people (while working!) and are probably plenty tired when they're done and happy to spend time sleeping.

A quick walk around the block for your average American pet just isn't the same.
posted by nev at 5:19 PM on November 14, 2005

I agree that you should look into the lower-allegen breeds (Poodles, Bichons etc.), or perhaps just consider another kind of pet altogether. If your wife has serious allergies, she is going to react to the dog dander that gets on you when you spend time with the dogs.

I am pretty firmly of the opinion that in the majority of cases with average dog owners it is far less than ideal, and verging on inhumane, to keep a dog outside, no matter what the weather is like where you are. It's easy to say that you'll walk the dog regularly, but out of sight can easily be out of mind for many people, good intentions aside, and there are very good reasons why reputable rescues and shelters will not place dogs in homes where the dogs will be kept outdoors all the time. It's also the case that regular walks aren't enough interaction for most dogs, unless you can genuinely commit to spending a LOT of time with the dogs every single day aside from walks, you will be doing the dogs a disservice. By "a lot", I mean at least weekly training classes with EACH dog, at least 15-30 minutes of training on a daily basis with EACH dog, and at least another hour or more on top of that just spending time with the dog. What will you do when it's cold and rainy and you don't want to go out? What will you do when you're sick in bed? Can you do this day in and day out for the next decade? How much time do you spend outside just hanging out in your back yard now? It's easy to say "sure no problem" now, when you're wanting a dog and looking at the good aspects, but I guarantee you there will be a time when you just don't have time/can't be bothered/don't feel like it, your dogs will suffer for it, and they have no say in the matter.

At least an indoor dog has human interaction built into its daily life by virtue of the fact that you both live in the house, with an outdoor dog you have to consciously make the effort. You spend much more time looking at and interacting with an indoor dog and are more likely to notice a medical or other problem at an early stage. Outdoor dogs are subjected to extremes of weather, parasites, other animals (like skunks), and tend to be bored (which can lead to unwanted behaviours like nuisance barking and digging), it also often leads to aggression.

Can it be done? Sure. Do people keep outdoor dogs without any of the "requirements" I've outlined here? Definitely. Does this mean it's an ideal situation for the dog? I don't think so. I frankly don't really see the point of having a dog if it's going to live outdoors for most people, and it's extremely common for outdoor dogs to just become lawn ornaments, which just isn't fair.

I disagree with your father in law, it is NOT necessarily a better situation for a dog to be kept outdoors than left in a pound or even euthanized - dogs do not anticipate death the way we do, and taking a dog from a warehousing situation and putting it into a backyard situation is not intrinsically an improvement in its quality of life.

I'm very glad you have reservations about this, I think they are justified. I suggest you do some research into why reputable shelters and rescues don't place dogs in outdoor homes. Here are a few places to start.
posted by biscotti at 5:22 PM on November 14, 2005

A working dog is something entirely different than a suburban dog doing nothing in a confined space for hours on end. Working dogs spend time with people (while working!) and are probably plenty tired when they're done and happy to spend time sleeping.

This is entirely true, and well said. It's also worth pointing out that the fact that many people DO keep dogs outside (and they do everywhere), doesn't mean that this is a desirable situation for the dog. Working dogs (of all kinds), as nev says, are usually a very different case, they get plenty of interaction and exercise, they're not sitting in a back yard 24/7.
posted by biscotti at 5:27 PM on November 14, 2005

I would recommend addressing your wife's allergies, rather than addressing how you'll have a dog that's going to irritate them. There are breeds of dog, even cute ones, that won't cause irritation to most people who are allergic to dog dander.

I'm glad you're asking here if it's inhumane. I've posted before about cats, and people seeming to think they have some god given right to have a pet, and have it be convenient. (i.e. I will declaw my cat, or he/she will ruin my furniture, what else am I supposed to do?! -- www.declawing.com for more info if you care)

So, that said - I'm really glad you're asking how humane it is and that you want to make sure you're going to give a dog a good life. It sounds like you will make a great pet owner.

You should look into "wire haired" dogs such as Wire Haired Fox Terriers (dogs I grew up with because of my father's allergy to dogs!), Bichon Frise, etc.

You will find that there's no such thing as a totally non-allergenic dog -- but most people can tolerate (and may not even notice ANY problems from) wire haired dogs unless their allergies are very severe.

There are many things you can do, however, to keep even a regular breed of dog from affecting someone with allergies. Frequent bathing and grooming helps immensely, for example.

Good luck in your hunt for a new friend (or friends). I hope you're able to find a suitable solution that is happy for both you and the dog(s)...
posted by twiggy at 5:35 PM on November 14, 2005

AKC list of dogs that may be better for people with allergies.

(Of course one should spend time hanging out with these breeds to see how they affect you rather than assuming they'll be okay.)
posted by needs more cowbell at 5:43 PM on November 14, 2005

Thanks, everyone for your comments - very helpful.
posted by krudiger at 6:17 PM on November 14, 2005

I don't want to bring down the wrath of Anubis on me here, but I've got a big dog I keep outside all the time. I'll let him in the house to chill on the floor, but he sleeps, eats and everything else outside. I've got two fenced acres for him to run around on, and I play with him lots every day.
posted by atchafalaya at 7:08 PM on November 14, 2005

According to three different allergists I've seen over the years, there is no dog that is less allergenic than others. All dogs have skin, and that is what people are allergic to. It matters not whether they have fur or hair.
posted by shifafa at 7:11 PM on November 14, 2005

I have to second i_am_joe's_spleen. I'm from Australia and many dogs over here live mostly outside the house. But I guess we tend have a pretty outdoors lifestyle compared to many north Americans (??).
posted by bruceyeah at 7:17 PM on November 14, 2005

As another Australian: We dont keep our dogs outside, but keeping your dog outside is fairly common practise over here.
Its sort of a bit wierd, Ive never heard anyone call it inhumane.
posted by phyle at 7:48 PM on November 14, 2005

Australian number three: both our dogs are kept outside. we let them in once a day or so at night and they curl up on the floor, but when we all go to bed they go outside.

We do have a big backyard though, so they get plenty of exercise, and a big family, so they get plenty of attention. I think it's going too far for anyone to tell you that it's inhumane to keep dogs outside. What could make it inhumane is if there wasn't enough room for it to run around, if you didn't play with it at all, if you didn't take care of it in extreme weather etc. There's nothing automatically inhumane about keeping it outside, it just depends on how you do it.
posted by twirlypen at 7:58 PM on November 14, 2005

Don't do it. Would you want to spend 90% of your time alone in a yard, and only 10% of the time with other living things? Be honest with yourself, because the amount of time you spend with this dog will decrease from your initial estimates.
posted by MrZero at 8:00 PM on November 14, 2005

I don't think having one dog outside is good. Two (or more) outside dogs make a pack and that would work. But then, you may start to have problems with the dogs bouncing off each other and behaving more like a pack and less like pets. That might work in the wilds of New Zealand, but not so well in the average American suburb.
posted by dness2 at 8:32 PM on November 14, 2005

I think my dog really would die of sadness if she were kept outside. Now she's a total velcro dog, so it's an extreme case. But even in less extreme cases, I do think it's cruel to not allow your dog to be with you when you're home.
posted by duck at 8:34 PM on November 14, 2005

the wilds of New Zealand

LOL. how "wild" do you think we are in NZ?

I live in Auckland, (that's a city, don't ya know, with "electricity" and everything ;) ), and have friends whose dogs have to sleep ouside, or at the very least in a designated sleep area (I think the latter only works with well trained dogs or closed doors!). But I think America's ideas about pets are very different to ours (my American bf thinks it's weird that most cats in NZ are indoor/outdoor pets, most NZers would never dream of trying to restrict a cat to indoors [that sounds inhumane to me!]).

Having said this, I personally think it is a little cruel to make a dog sleep outside or away from his "pack". But I don't think this factor in isolation should stop you from getting a dog. If you've carefully considered the time you will have for your new four legged family member/s, and on balance the dog/s will have a happy life regardless of sleeping outside, go ahead.
posted by ancamp at 9:26 PM on November 14, 2005

On this topic there has been at least one previous thread on ask.mefi about whether cats should be kept inside (sorry, don't have time to wrestle with searching for them right now) ...which also raised some interesting cultural differences.
posted by bruceyeah at 10:22 PM on November 14, 2005

Here's the cat thread. It is interesting: UK vs. US is completely different.
posted by smackfu at 6:37 AM on November 15, 2005

According to three different allergists I've seen over the years, there is no dog that is less allergenic than others. All dogs have skin, and that is what people are allergic to. It matters not whether they have fur or hair. - shifafa

Anecdotally, my experience bears this out. As a kid I desperately wanted a cat, but Dad knew he was allergic. One year, for Christmas, he brought home a Devon Rex which don't shed and were supposedly better for people with allergies. Dad had to stay medicated for his allergies and had regular attacks for years. Until he moved out of the house and into an apartment with no cats then his respiratory problems disappeared.
posted by raedyn at 6:44 AM on November 15, 2005

Yeah, I know Auckland has electricity :) but it is a lot closer to its open spaces than most American burbs, and certainly a lot closer psychologically. And then outside Auckland you guys are in the wild, like Colorado (parts of). My point was partly that if it's not the norm to keep dogs outside all the time (note krudiger was implying pretty much 100%) in the neighborhood you live in, there's probably a good reason for that. Most of the happy outside dogs I've seen have more room than the average tract house and have dog friends. A single dog in a small fenced in yard? Not so happy.
posted by dness2 at 6:46 AM on November 15, 2005

I grew up in the country in the US and we always had outdoor dogs. We were outdoor people: gardening and swimming in the lake and long walks were important family activities and both my brother and I spent most of our free time out in the yard with the dogs. We always had 2 dogs who hung out together in their 1/2 acre or so fenced yard when they weren't out running around with us.

I'm sure there are outdoor dogs that are neglected, but there are also plenty of large, high-energy dogs who are locked up in little apartments all day and just taken out for short walks to empty their bowels. The idea that the simple indoor/outdoor division tells you anything about the "humanity" of keeping a dog strikes this former country girl as pretty silly.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:48 AM on November 15, 2005

Growing up I had (and my parents still have) a dog who lives outside. Of course, it is in a southern state where it only snows once every two years. The dog has his own room with a heater and food for when it gets cold and so he can have a comfortable place to sleep at night. He has about half an acre to himself to run around in and a little house for when he is scared. There is also plenty of land for him to play on and lots of animals and a lake for his enjoyment. The dog is a Border Collie and doesn't get along well with strangers or other dogs, but he loves his "pack" and small children for some reason. He started out indoors, but he was just too full of energy to be kept inside for more than an hour or so. He needs to be bossy and run around, but he is happy and gets lots of attention. In this case, he would have gone nuts as an indoor dog.

So, if you live somewhere warm and have a bit of land this might be a good idea. I think working dogs like Border Collies (especially the males) can handle this well with a minimum of trauma.
posted by Alison at 7:02 AM on November 15, 2005

I suppose this fate could befall any dog left outside unsupervised for even a short amount of time but my parents' adored sheltie was stolen out of their suburban backyard a few years ago. It was pretty devastating to everyone in the family. (On the other side of the coin, some friends bought a purebred dog several years ago that later turned out to be stolen.)

In my neighborhood it's not unheard of for pets to be picked up and used in dogfights, so no unescorted pets outside for me.
posted by Sully6 at 7:42 AM on November 15, 2005

This is not an international cultural difference. It is very common in the US for people to keep their dogs outside, and most of those people are perfectly nice, decent people.

But whether they're in the US, Australia, New Zealand, the Federal Republic of Mars, or New Jerusalem, they're perfectly nice, decent people who aren't treating their dog as they should.

Whether it is common or not, or whether the dog seems accustomed to it, isn't useful information, any more than it would be to learn that any other practice (racial segregation, circumcision, whatever) is very common in a society and that at least some of its "victims" seem happy enough. Common treatment does not make proper treatment. Treatment that a dog can become accustomed to does not make proper treatment. Proper treatment makes proper treatment.

People seem to be twigging on "inhumane." Obviously keeping your dog outside is not like taking it to the garage and nailing its feet to the floor, or using it as fighting-bait, or whatever. It is clearly not inhumane in that respect, it is not outright abuse, and doesn't mean that you're worse than Hitler and Pol Pot.

But it is also not the preferred or proper way to treat a dog. How do you properly treat a pack animal? By allowing it to be with its pack. If you're not going to do that, you should be questioning why you want a dog, which is one of the most emphatically pack-oriented animals on the planet.

To deal with specific concerns:

i_am_joe's_spleen: There is a gulf between working dogs, which are tools and are commonly treated like tools, with the same regard one might have for a tractor, and pets. krudiger was not proposing to start a sled-dog kennel or a sheep ranch, he was proposing to get a pet.

atchafalaya, phyle, twirlypen: I'm sure you treat your dogs reasonably well, and are perfectly decent people. That doesn't mean that you're treating your dog as well as you could, or as well as you ought, or that your dog would not be better off having been raised an (allowed-)inside dog.

hydropsyche: That some inside dogs are left alone all day every day, which is its own mistreatment, is orthogonal to the question of whether leaving a dog outside is proper care.

Alison: the better lesson from your story is that border collies make terrible pets (as a central tendency). They're hugely driven dogs with gigantic exercise and stimulation needs who, if they're not given extensive and complex work, will invent their own destructive "work" to occupy their time, and they have no off switch. It would be better to just not get a border collie as a pet than to get one and keep it outside.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:58 AM on November 15, 2005

Whatever you decide, if you go the purebred route, be sure to research the temperament of the dog you are thinking of getting. A border collie for an apartment would be a terrible idea. Each breed has certain characteristics that may or may not fit into your family. I keep my two dogs (a Husky and a Boxer) indoors because I don't want them stolen or for them to run off. Siberian Huskies in particular are diggers and they really shouldn't be off-leash for any reason outdoors. They run away and aren't too smart about coming back home. But they are a friendly family breed, at least in my experience. Boxers are active dogs, and powerfully built. Our Boxer tends to drag me along when we go for walks.

Country outdoor dogs take the risk of getting hit by cars. People speed through the country. I grew up on a farm, and I cannot tell you how devastating it was to have a pet get hit by a car.
posted by cass at 8:17 AM on November 15, 2005

I think this whole pack thing is mythological. Dogs aren't wolves. They don't have packs. Dogs aren't big thinkers, either.

We had both outside and inside dogs when I was growing up, not at the same time. It's the total time spent with the dog, and whether the dog has another dog for company, that matters.

Dogs don't need to be in the house to be happy. They don't care one way or another. It's whatever they are use to. They do get bored and lonely, but a second dog is the easy solution to this problem.

Dogs aren't people. In US culture its very popular to treat them like people, but they aren't. Horses, for example, are not people, and should not be kept in the house either.
posted by ewkpates at 10:02 AM on November 15, 2005

I've known two families who found their dogs frozen in Michigan. They were both very old, so I don't know whether they froze to death, or they died first then their corpses sort of froze. If you live somewhere with cold winters, give them something other than a dog house to keep warm. (But I don't know anything about dog psychology, or anything about keeping dogs, really.)
posted by leapingsheep at 10:02 AM on November 15, 2005

Whatever you decide, if you go the purebred route

My instinct is to say "just don't" but I'm sure it will get me yelled at and there are plenty of people who won't listen anyway.

But do look for rescue organizations and adoption agencies first if you're bound and determined to go purebred. Even aside from ethical issues about puppy mills, the fact is there's so many unloved dogs at the shelter of breeds both mixed and pure that you can almost certainly find what you're looking for there and save an animal's life.
posted by phearlez at 10:03 AM on November 15, 2005

They do get bored and lonely, but a second dog is the easy solution to this problem.

But if you care for the dog and its company little enough that it's bored and lonely, why get another? Why not just place your dog with someone who actually wants to be around a dog, or surrender it to a rescue/shelter so it can go to someone that wants to be around a dog?

Yes, dogs can get used to lots of things. They can get used to being kept outside alone. They can also get used to regular beatings, intentional starvation, being used as a fighting dog, or other horrors, and they can even come out of the experience as happy, sociable dogs. Obviously being kept outside is not like being beaten, but the fact that dogs are (usually) adaptable, resilient animals doesn't mean that it's just dandy to do anything to them that they can get used to.

Yes, it's the total time and interaction with the dog that's probably the most important. And an outside dog will, in all probability, get less interaction and less time-with-dog than an inside dog will -- that's the reason that krudiger shouldn't get an outside dog. It's possible to raise and keep a dog outside right, it's just much harder to do it as well as an inside dog, and it requires a very firm commitment on the part of the owner.

Purebreds:

The reason to get a purebred is if you want a dog with predictable characteristics, where you can make a pretty damn good bet about its size, exercise needs, some aspects of temperment, health concerns and non-concerns, etc. Or because you know and like a particular breed. You should never get a dog from a pet store, puppy mill, or casual/backyard breeder. An easy way to tell a puppy mill or casual breeder from an ethical breeder is that an ethical breeder is going to be obviously screening you as an owner.

Rescue dogs are in rescue for a reason, and that reason is often behavior problems. Not always by any means, and a decent rescue organization will let you know about any likely problems. But you should expect a rescue dog to be at least as much work as a dog from a breeder.

None of this means that people shouldn't look in pounds, shelters, and rescue groups. Only that people with purebreds from ethical breeders (like Casa Xenophobe) are okay too!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:43 AM on November 15, 2005

Well I have to agree with your father-in-law. We just adopted a dog from a no-kill shelter and our dog lived there for 6 or 7 YEARS - outside, in a cement floored pen, with one other dog as company. For part of the day the dogs were put in an outdoor run. There is no way our dog received more attention and/or love from the shelter than you and your wife plan to give an adopted pet.
posted by LadyBonita at 11:02 AM on November 15, 2005

the better lesson from your story is that border collies make terrible pets (as a central tendency)...It would be better to just not get a border collie as a pet than to get one and keep it outside.

I would disagree that Border Collies make terrible pets. While most would certainly be unhappy in a small apartment or house, they can thrive in an environment with a lot of room to move around. Our dog was certainly never destructive, but it was the constant "oh my God I see a squirrel/muskrat/duck please let me outside so I can chase it" that made us decide to keep him outside during the day.

Border Collies are intellegent, engaging pets who aren't as needy as some other breeds. Our dog always seemed to be happiest hanging out with us while playing by himself (mostly by scooting around on a frisbee), but our dog might just be weird. So, it is probably unfair to dismiss the breed outright, but they are certainly only for places with space to move and things to chase. However, giving them a place in the house at night (maybe a place that can be hosed of pet dander) would be important for keeping the dog safe and healthy.

I think it is possible for dogs to be happy outside, but only this will only work for dog personalities and certain dog environments. Finding the right dog through a breeder or a shelter might be a tall order.
posted by Alison at 11:25 AM on November 15, 2005

*some dog personalities
posted by Alison at 8:46 PM on November 15, 2005

I grew up with a backyard dog - a happy, well behaved border collie - and I was about to pooh-pooh this whole thing, until I read knave's excellent link. As it turns out, we were a very yard-oriented family and there was always someone out there; I spent many hours out there every week with the dog.

I don't think it's fair to the dog to just dump him back there and expect him to fend for himself.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:37 AM on November 16, 2005