What's up with the Eleventh Doctor?
November 27, 2014 8:33 PM Subscribe
I am about halfway into season 5 of "new" Dr. Who (first season with Matt Smith) and I am not liking it so far. Will the things that I don't like about it change?
So I've only seen the "new" Dr. Who, starting with Eccleston and I am currently (literally) in the middle of watching "Amy's Choice," season 5, episode 7. There are only a couple of things grating on me, but they are really grating on me:
- I feel like 11 yells all the time, especially to Amy. It just seems that he's always yelling at Amy to shut up and do what he says or get back to the Tardis, and he was yelling at River Song a couple episodes back as if she were an idiot.
- And on that note, the relationship between 11 and Amy/Rory feels very paternalistic. I've done a bit of reading and I gather this is actually what it was like in classic Who, but I realized I really enjoy feeling like the Doctor treats his companions like peers, not children. The repartee between Donna and the Doctor was a lot more fun for me than watching the Doctor yell at Amy.
- I feel like there was more humor/campiness in the prior seasons. This might be because I just finished up the Donna episodes not too long ago, but every one of these new episodes feels very serious.
Will any of these things change? I realize that everyone has different preferences about Who, and Doctors change, and I'm not totally down on 11 (the production values are WAY up!). But I'd like to know if these things, especially the second point, will change, because otherwise I'm really not enjoying Dr. Who as much as I enjoyed the Tennant episodes. And I know that these are totally subjective perceptions, and maybe a study shows that 10 actually yelled a lot more than 11, but for whatever reason I am really decidedly lukewarm on Matt Smith so far and I want to know if things will change.
So I've only seen the "new" Dr. Who, starting with Eccleston and I am currently (literally) in the middle of watching "Amy's Choice," season 5, episode 7. There are only a couple of things grating on me, but they are really grating on me:
- I feel like 11 yells all the time, especially to Amy. It just seems that he's always yelling at Amy to shut up and do what he says or get back to the Tardis, and he was yelling at River Song a couple episodes back as if she were an idiot.
- And on that note, the relationship between 11 and Amy/Rory feels very paternalistic. I've done a bit of reading and I gather this is actually what it was like in classic Who, but I realized I really enjoy feeling like the Doctor treats his companions like peers, not children. The repartee between Donna and the Doctor was a lot more fun for me than watching the Doctor yell at Amy.
- I feel like there was more humor/campiness in the prior seasons. This might be because I just finished up the Donna episodes not too long ago, but every one of these new episodes feels very serious.
Will any of these things change? I realize that everyone has different preferences about Who, and Doctors change, and I'm not totally down on 11 (the production values are WAY up!). But I'd like to know if these things, especially the second point, will change, because otherwise I'm really not enjoying Dr. Who as much as I enjoyed the Tennant episodes. And I know that these are totally subjective perceptions, and maybe a study shows that 10 actually yelled a lot more than 11, but for whatever reason I am really decidedly lukewarm on Matt Smith so far and I want to know if things will change.
Response by poster: (To clarify some potentially confusing wording: I've seen all the episodes of new Who: so both the Eccleston and Tennant years. I'm just now starting the Smith episodes.)
posted by andrewesque at 8:42 PM on November 27, 2014
posted by andrewesque at 8:42 PM on November 27, 2014
Rory proves himself by the end of the season, and in fact sometime in the season after that, RORY is the one scolding The Doctor and telling him why he sucks a couple times.
That first year with Matt Smith was a bit uneven, yeah. But it gets better. You do have the lovely "Vincent And The Doctor" ahead of you, at least.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:52 PM on November 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
That first year with Matt Smith was a bit uneven, yeah. But it gets better. You do have the lovely "Vincent And The Doctor" ahead of you, at least.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:52 PM on November 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
My opinion is no. I sort of liked the first season of 11 but found those things annoying. I disliked the further seasons of 11 more and more. (And though I like Capaldi a great deal, I don't find he's managing to elevate the writing/plotting/characterisation of 12 -- or at least, not the first few episodes that I watched.)
posted by jeather at 9:00 PM on November 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by jeather at 9:00 PM on November 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
Looking back I feel like the Nine-Ten run is a great story with a beginning, middle, and end. Eleven is much more uneven; I think Matt Smith was great in the role and really came to like Amy and Rory, but the writing just wasn't there (and is actually going to get quite a bit worse yet from where you're at now). The show just has big problems both at the level of the individual episode and the season-long plot arc more or less across Moffat's run as showrunner. In my opinion things have been a lot better with Twelve but a good part of that is simply how different Capaldi's take on the character is, and how absolutely strong a presence he is on the screen.
The 50th Anniversary episode is good, and they end Eleven's story in a way that's at least interesting. But I'd be prepared to continue to be frustrated until the switch.
posted by gerryblog at 9:19 PM on November 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
The 50th Anniversary episode is good, and they end Eleven's story in a way that's at least interesting. But I'd be prepared to continue to be frustrated until the switch.
posted by gerryblog at 9:19 PM on November 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
I hate Eleven. I could spend forever counting the ways, but suffice it to say, yeah, it's totally normal and fine to dislike Eleven and not feel interested in continuing to watch the Eleven years of Doctor Who.
That said.
The transition between different iterations of the Doctor isn't always smooth, and it can take a while to really start to get invested in a new Doctor. It took me a little while to get into David Tennant's portrayal of the Doctor, and in hindsight his seasons are my favorites (though I also still love Christopher Eccleston).
Also, unlike most of the other regenerations, there's a stark separation between Ten and Eleven that almost feels like a reboot. Usually the companions and the overall tone of the show stays largely the same from one doctor to the next, whereas the jump from Ten to Eleven was like two different TV shows.
So I would say that if you're a newish viewer (i.e. this is your first regeneration), and you find the transition jarring, know that it's common, and that this particular regeneration was especially stark, with HUGE differences between the Eccleston/Tennant years and the Matt Smith years. You may want to stick with it for a while to confirm that you REALLY for real don't like Eleven.
But if you find that you really don't like Eleven, just skip it. It's a TV show, and life is too fucking short. Also, it's very rare that the Doctor Who continuity calls back to a previous iteration of the Doctor (and the minor story points you may have missed can be easily looked up online if you need explanation), so it's not like you'd be missing a lot if you just moved on to Capaldi and pretended Matt Smith never happened.
posted by Sara C. at 9:42 PM on November 27, 2014 [5 favorites]
That said.
The transition between different iterations of the Doctor isn't always smooth, and it can take a while to really start to get invested in a new Doctor. It took me a little while to get into David Tennant's portrayal of the Doctor, and in hindsight his seasons are my favorites (though I also still love Christopher Eccleston).
Also, unlike most of the other regenerations, there's a stark separation between Ten and Eleven that almost feels like a reboot. Usually the companions and the overall tone of the show stays largely the same from one doctor to the next, whereas the jump from Ten to Eleven was like two different TV shows.
So I would say that if you're a newish viewer (i.e. this is your first regeneration), and you find the transition jarring, know that it's common, and that this particular regeneration was especially stark, with HUGE differences between the Eccleston/Tennant years and the Matt Smith years. You may want to stick with it for a while to confirm that you REALLY for real don't like Eleven.
But if you find that you really don't like Eleven, just skip it. It's a TV show, and life is too fucking short. Also, it's very rare that the Doctor Who continuity calls back to a previous iteration of the Doctor (and the minor story points you may have missed can be easily looked up online if you need explanation), so it's not like you'd be missing a lot if you just moved on to Capaldi and pretended Matt Smith never happened.
posted by Sara C. at 9:42 PM on November 27, 2014 [5 favorites]
Someone already mentioned "Vincent and the Doctor" a superb episode. Written well and acted wonderfully by the actor playing Vincent Van Gogh. There is also another good episode that I think is called "God Complex" or something like that. Unfortunately those are the only two good episodes in my opinion.
The problem isn't so much Matt Smith, who actually does a good job playing the Doctor. The problem is primarily the writing. The writing staff changed significantly after Season 4. In fact, the reason David Tennant left Dr. Who was specifically because the main writer was going to leave and he has said as such in interviews. The season is very cold and the writing has left the Doctor as too sure of himself making the character lack the vulnerability and insecurity needed for the audience to relate to him. Remember- The Doctor is a virtually immortal, extraterrestrial who travels through time and universes in a phone box. So there isn't anything for the audience (comprised mostly of immortal, human beings that have never traveled through time and space) to relate to with him except his vulnerability. The first two doctors had plenty of "human" insecurities that the audience could relate to, but Matt Smith's Doctor doesn't and that mostly has to do with the script. It won't get as good as season 4, but you do have a couple of good episodes to look forward to.
posted by rancher at 10:23 PM on November 27, 2014 [8 favorites]
The problem isn't so much Matt Smith, who actually does a good job playing the Doctor. The problem is primarily the writing. The writing staff changed significantly after Season 4. In fact, the reason David Tennant left Dr. Who was specifically because the main writer was going to leave and he has said as such in interviews. The season is very cold and the writing has left the Doctor as too sure of himself making the character lack the vulnerability and insecurity needed for the audience to relate to him. Remember- The Doctor is a virtually immortal, extraterrestrial who travels through time and universes in a phone box. So there isn't anything for the audience (comprised mostly of immortal, human beings that have never traveled through time and space) to relate to with him except his vulnerability. The first two doctors had plenty of "human" insecurities that the audience could relate to, but Matt Smith's Doctor doesn't and that mostly has to do with the script. It won't get as good as season 4, but you do have a couple of good episodes to look forward to.
posted by rancher at 10:23 PM on November 27, 2014 [8 favorites]
I skipped 90% of Smith Doctor and moved on to Capaldi Doctor and it was a good choice. The last series had some not-good writing, but I didn't have hours of hate-watching behind me, so I was able to enjoy it for what it was.
posted by betweenthebars at 11:41 PM on November 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by betweenthebars at 11:41 PM on November 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
Opinions about Eleven differ widely. I think he pulled it off pretty well, or at least, I was able to project what I expected of the Doctor onto him. Amy and Rory grow into stronger characters who take very little shit from the Doctor. There are some terrible scripts ahead of you, to be sure, but I think you should watch 'em all at least once. Having seen series 5, I would only ever choose to re-watch episodes 1 and 10–13.
Series 6 is my favorite of Smith's tenure: "The Impossible Astronaut" and "Day of the Moon" are pretty great, you get Neil Gaiman's much-loved "The Doctor's Wife" and then several episodes that, brick-by-brick, lay the groundwork for a satisfying conclusion. Series 7 is more disjointed, and we pick up a very weird companion there that may put you off again, but forge ahead!
I'd hope you'll come around, but some people never do. It took me about half of series 8 to see Capaldi as the Doctor, for good and ill, and I'm not sure if it was acting, writing, or just exposure that did the trick. I will own that being a Whovian is sometimes less about how much you're enjoying a particular episode (or entire season) and more about the platonic ideal of it all.
posted by mumkin at 11:44 PM on November 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
Series 6 is my favorite of Smith's tenure: "The Impossible Astronaut" and "Day of the Moon" are pretty great, you get Neil Gaiman's much-loved "The Doctor's Wife" and then several episodes that, brick-by-brick, lay the groundwork for a satisfying conclusion. Series 7 is more disjointed, and we pick up a very weird companion there that may put you off again, but forge ahead!
I'd hope you'll come around, but some people never do. It took me about half of series 8 to see Capaldi as the Doctor, for good and ill, and I'm not sure if it was acting, writing, or just exposure that did the trick. I will own that being a Whovian is sometimes less about how much you're enjoying a particular episode (or entire season) and more about the platonic ideal of it all.
posted by mumkin at 11:44 PM on November 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
I really like 11, but I don't think it get's better for the most part, other than stand out episodes. Unfortunately the things you don't love about the writing are probably a product of having Moffat at the handle, so you may not like Twelve either. I recommend skipping to highly regarded episodes in each season and seeing how you get on. My list:
Vincent and the Doctor, the Lodger, The pandorica opens/Big bang, a christmas carol
The Doctor's Wife, The Girl Who Waited, The Crimson Horror, The Day of the Doctor.
That's a bit of an absolutist list and will be a bit confusing as it skips lots of plot, but those are probably the best episodes for me anyway.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 11:50 PM on November 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
Vincent and the Doctor, the Lodger, The pandorica opens/Big bang, a christmas carol
The Doctor's Wife, The Girl Who Waited, The Crimson Horror, The Day of the Doctor.
That's a bit of an absolutist list and will be a bit confusing as it skips lots of plot, but those are probably the best episodes for me anyway.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 11:50 PM on November 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
I liked the story lines with 11, but agree that it lost the feel of partner/equal-ness of 9 and 10. I find it's only been exacerbated with 12 (I've pretty much stopped watching the show at this point). There have been a lot of critiques re the sexism, racism, etc. Makes it hard to watch from that angle, but also makes the writing/plot boring.
Recently discussed on several threads on the blue (some spoilers likely).
posted by melissasaurus at 1:30 AM on November 28, 2014
Recently discussed on several threads on the blue (some spoilers likely).
posted by melissasaurus at 1:30 AM on November 28, 2014
I loved Eleven. it just goes to show how subjective reactions to DW are (I liked Ten a lot at the beginning but I couldn't wait for him to go by the end of his run!).
Part of what I liked about Eleven was that 'reboot' effect that Sara C mentions, and that is what you're having issues adjusting to. I think when Moffat took the helm he took pains to move the Doctor away from Ten's vulnerabilities and very human insecurities and feeling towards Rose etc and towards a figure who is less easy to feel for or identify with - precisely because he is a 1,000 year old alien. So we don't always get why Eleven and Twelve act the way they do or sometimes we do and we don't like it.
(Personally this worked for me. I hated Ten's occasional emo-ness and I HATED his relationship with Rose, so I vastly prefer the slightly arbitrary shoutiness/bossiness of Eleven and Twelve.)
posted by Ziggy500 at 2:40 AM on November 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
Part of what I liked about Eleven was that 'reboot' effect that Sara C mentions, and that is what you're having issues adjusting to. I think when Moffat took the helm he took pains to move the Doctor away from Ten's vulnerabilities and very human insecurities and feeling towards Rose etc and towards a figure who is less easy to feel for or identify with - precisely because he is a 1,000 year old alien. So we don't always get why Eleven and Twelve act the way they do or sometimes we do and we don't like it.
(Personally this worked for me. I hated Ten's occasional emo-ness and I HATED his relationship with Rose, so I vastly prefer the slightly arbitrary shoutiness/bossiness of Eleven and Twelve.)
posted by Ziggy500 at 2:40 AM on November 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
Part of what I liked about Eleven was that 'reboot' effect that Sara C mentions, and that is what you're having issues adjusting to.
Argh, too late to edit. That should read:
... I suspect that is what you're having issues adjusting to
posted by Ziggy500 at 2:46 AM on November 28, 2014
Argh, too late to edit. That should read:
... I suspect that is what you're having issues adjusting to
posted by Ziggy500 at 2:46 AM on November 28, 2014
I agree with Ziggy.
I did not like Ten's Rose fetish. It's weird for a time lord to love a human. WEIRD!
And as much as I loved early Tennant I felt that it really went downhill near the end.
I liked Smith quite a lot, but the last series (with Clara) I thought was possibly the worst who ever.
Clara wasn't even a character, I'm not sure if she supposed to be or not. I was all ready to blame Jenna Coleman for that until the new series with Capaldi where she was terrific, so, lack of chemistry possibly?
But anyway, I like Smith's odd mix of ancient and childish. I like the way Smith played the Doctor, Moffat had some good ideas but he rapidly got carried away with them and then kind of ran out. But I think the main shift you're seeing is in the change of show runner, from Davis to Moffat.
It may be that you just don't like Moffat's take on the character, but on the plus side with Who there will always be a new Doctor and always a new show runner, so just skip it till you get to ones you like.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:43 AM on November 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
I did not like Ten's Rose fetish. It's weird for a time lord to love a human. WEIRD!
And as much as I loved early Tennant I felt that it really went downhill near the end.
I liked Smith quite a lot, but the last series (with Clara) I thought was possibly the worst who ever.
Clara wasn't even a character, I'm not sure if she supposed to be or not. I was all ready to blame Jenna Coleman for that until the new series with Capaldi where she was terrific, so, lack of chemistry possibly?
But anyway, I like Smith's odd mix of ancient and childish. I like the way Smith played the Doctor, Moffat had some good ideas but he rapidly got carried away with them and then kind of ran out. But I think the main shift you're seeing is in the change of show runner, from Davis to Moffat.
It may be that you just don't like Moffat's take on the character, but on the plus side with Who there will always be a new Doctor and always a new show runner, so just skip it till you get to ones you like.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:43 AM on November 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
I disliked 11 the first time around, but when rewatching, I liked him better. He's still behind Eccleston, Tennant, and Capaldi, though.
As for the yelling at River Song--well, she gives as good as she gets :)
I don't see 11 as very paternalistic at all to Amy/Rory--but that may be because I have the advantage of knowing how the story arc plays out.
posted by Amy NM at 5:01 AM on November 28, 2014
As for the yelling at River Song--well, she gives as good as she gets :)
I don't see 11 as very paternalistic at all to Amy/Rory--but that may be because I have the advantage of knowing how the story arc plays out.
posted by Amy NM at 5:01 AM on November 28, 2014
I think 11 is pretty twee and silly to start off, but he does get slightly less so (but not much) over time. It's kind of tough going from Tennant (who is just the best of the new Doctors) to anyone, so I kind of felt the same. Will he get better? Yes, but not markedly so (if you're anything like me).
Frankly, I kind of feel that the writing/storylines took a hefty a downturn in the Matt Smith years, which was my biggest gripe. Meh.
posted by JimBJ9 at 6:19 AM on November 28, 2014
Frankly, I kind of feel that the writing/storylines took a hefty a downturn in the Matt Smith years, which was my biggest gripe. Meh.
posted by JimBJ9 at 6:19 AM on November 28, 2014
It doesn't get better. The reason it doesn't get better is because of Stephen Moffat being the head writer now.
posted by Librarypt at 7:34 AM on November 28, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by Librarypt at 7:34 AM on November 28, 2014 [4 favorites]
I gave up on it. Loved the two previous doctors and that's what kept me watching the first season with Matt Smith but I was done after that. Not a fan. I kept expecting it to get better. It didn't.
posted by Neekee at 8:08 AM on November 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Neekee at 8:08 AM on November 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
I had the exact same issues with Eleven that you did, and in my opinion, they actually got worse, not better, over time. I skipped big chunks of his run, and, frankly, only regret that I didn't skip more of it. There are a couple great episodes (Vincent and the Doctor), but outside of that...meh. Life's too short.
posted by MeghanC at 9:14 AM on November 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by MeghanC at 9:14 AM on November 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
I will nth the comment that Vincent and the Doctor is a great episode.
posted by jeather at 10:25 AM on November 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by jeather at 10:25 AM on November 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
Lifelong Whovian here, and Matt Smith is my very least favorite of all of them. It's not you, he lacks the gravitas to really anchor the character as needed. Some of his episodes are good despite him, and some are less good than they could be with a better doctor. Moffat is also not my favorite writer though, so we can't hold Smith entirely accountable. Capaldi seems excellent so far. (Peter Davison is my favorite!)
posted by AliceBlue at 10:31 AM on November 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by AliceBlue at 10:31 AM on November 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
If you don't like the first half of Matt Smith, you're really not going to like the second half. I actually love Matt Smith + Amy + Rory and think it's one of the best stretches of Doctor Who storyline. But once you get to Clara, things unfortunately take a turn for the worse until Capaldi.
posted by the jam at 3:30 PM on November 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by the jam at 3:30 PM on November 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
This sounds like a post for fanfair, But imo it's utter crap and gets worse with Capaldi. Clara takes the lead and is really doing all the level headed doctoring stuff while Smith then Capaldi spend their time in some sort of race to eccentricity island in some sad attempt to recreate Tom Baker.
They need new writers.
posted by mattoxic at 3:12 AM on November 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
They need new writers.
posted by mattoxic at 3:12 AM on November 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
Well, there's been some research into annoying changes in gender dynamics in Dr. Who due to the writers. Personally, the whole Amy Pond arc poisoned me to Dr. Who and I don't foresee myself ever watching another episode.
posted by thegreatfleecircus at 1:07 PM on November 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by thegreatfleecircus at 1:07 PM on November 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by supercres at 8:38 PM on November 27, 2014 [3 favorites]