Asking for a friend... Is this relationship something that can be fixed?
November 5, 2014 4:03 PM Subscribe
"My fiancé and I started dating when we were 16. We are now 21. Our relationship started out great, and we moved in together quickly when we were 17. We lived together from that point on until he took a job out of state last October. He currently works about 12 hours from where I live. We have been having a lot of problems lately and I'm trying to figure out if it is worth saving. More details inside."
"We have been having problems with our relationship for about 14 months or so now. I am in college and have a job, and he wants me to visit him at his job often for long periods of time. We have a camper and he expects me to stay in the camper with him for a month or more at a time during the warm months and in a hotel during winter. He works about 11 hours a day usually which leaves me alone with no internet or television and he doesn’t seem to understand how hard that is. He is a poor money manager, a lot of our fights are due to his money management and my not wanting to stay with him at his job. For example, he came home last week for a job interview closer to home and knowing money was going to be really tight he still purchased a 140 dollar CB radio that he didn’t need. In a normal week he makes between 800-1000 dollars, and I usually only spend about 150 of that at the very most (on bills, groceries, credit card payments, etc), but he accuses me of spending all his money.
Another big issue is that he owes me a few thousand dollars for credit card bills in my name that he has run up. He mismanaged the money before our vacation and spent all the savings we had, so he had me get credit cards in my name to pay for the vacation that he promised he would pay off and has only made one payment. My credit has gone from a 700 to somewhere in the 400s or 500s because he hasn’t paid them.
I’m worried we have become really different people. Since he as turned 21 and been away from home he often goes to bars with his friends (who aren’t the best of people) and has confessed to driving under the influence of alcohol at least once. I normally wouldn’t have a problem with him going out, but he has cheated on me once before which has given me trust issues.
When we fight, things get very heated. He calls me names - for example, last week when money was tight I offered to help him do odd jobs at home to boost the income and he called me a “stupid mother******” and accused me of taking money out of our joint bank account and hiding it in the house somewhere. He says that I call him “lazy” but I have never said that to him - I always try to motivate him and offer to help him if I can. He expects me to make his meals and clean up after him. I live with my cousin and when he is home he never offers to help us cook or clean and leaves his trash and dirty clothes everywhere.
I’m not the most physically affectionate person and he uses this to accuse me of cheating. I don’t show my feelings very much and I know that is my problem and have acknowledged that, but he continues to argue with me about it and says that I don’t love him. I would be content having sex two or three times a week and he is constantly pressure me about sex and having sex without a condom which I’m not comfortable with since neither of us are anywhere near ready to have a child.
It seems like we can’t just sit down and have a discussion about anything without it turning into a fight. Last weekend, we broke up while he was here and he left and now I’m trying to figure out if this relationship is something that can be saved or if I should just stop trying. If we break up, he wants the engagement ring he gave me back and says that he will pay the credit card bills, but how can I trust that? I hate to let our relationship end since we have been together so long and are engaged. I have never been single as an adult and this is causing me a lot of anxiety. Any advice is appreciated."
"We have been having problems with our relationship for about 14 months or so now. I am in college and have a job, and he wants me to visit him at his job often for long periods of time. We have a camper and he expects me to stay in the camper with him for a month or more at a time during the warm months and in a hotel during winter. He works about 11 hours a day usually which leaves me alone with no internet or television and he doesn’t seem to understand how hard that is. He is a poor money manager, a lot of our fights are due to his money management and my not wanting to stay with him at his job. For example, he came home last week for a job interview closer to home and knowing money was going to be really tight he still purchased a 140 dollar CB radio that he didn’t need. In a normal week he makes between 800-1000 dollars, and I usually only spend about 150 of that at the very most (on bills, groceries, credit card payments, etc), but he accuses me of spending all his money.
Another big issue is that he owes me a few thousand dollars for credit card bills in my name that he has run up. He mismanaged the money before our vacation and spent all the savings we had, so he had me get credit cards in my name to pay for the vacation that he promised he would pay off and has only made one payment. My credit has gone from a 700 to somewhere in the 400s or 500s because he hasn’t paid them.
I’m worried we have become really different people. Since he as turned 21 and been away from home he often goes to bars with his friends (who aren’t the best of people) and has confessed to driving under the influence of alcohol at least once. I normally wouldn’t have a problem with him going out, but he has cheated on me once before which has given me trust issues.
When we fight, things get very heated. He calls me names - for example, last week when money was tight I offered to help him do odd jobs at home to boost the income and he called me a “stupid mother******” and accused me of taking money out of our joint bank account and hiding it in the house somewhere. He says that I call him “lazy” but I have never said that to him - I always try to motivate him and offer to help him if I can. He expects me to make his meals and clean up after him. I live with my cousin and when he is home he never offers to help us cook or clean and leaves his trash and dirty clothes everywhere.
I’m not the most physically affectionate person and he uses this to accuse me of cheating. I don’t show my feelings very much and I know that is my problem and have acknowledged that, but he continues to argue with me about it and says that I don’t love him. I would be content having sex two or three times a week and he is constantly pressure me about sex and having sex without a condom which I’m not comfortable with since neither of us are anywhere near ready to have a child.
It seems like we can’t just sit down and have a discussion about anything without it turning into a fight. Last weekend, we broke up while he was here and he left and now I’m trying to figure out if this relationship is something that can be saved or if I should just stop trying. If we break up, he wants the engagement ring he gave me back and says that he will pay the credit card bills, but how can I trust that? I hate to let our relationship end since we have been together so long and are engaged. I have never been single as an adult and this is causing me a lot of anxiety. Any advice is appreciated."
Please get out of this relationship. If it's safe to do so (ie. you aren't in physical danger) tell him that you will return this ring if he pays you back the money that he owes you by [date of your choosing]. If he doesn't pay you back, sell the ring.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 4:10 PM on November 5, 2014 [12 favorites]
posted by kinddieserzeit at 4:10 PM on November 5, 2014 [12 favorites]
This is not a healthy relationship. Break up, sell the ring, pay your credit cards as you can, and move forward.
posted by Nimmie Amee at 4:10 PM on November 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Nimmie Amee at 4:10 PM on November 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
Your friend is the age when many people start their first long term relationship... Hanging on to this awful man just because she doesn't want to have wasted five years is ridiculous. Engagements can be broken. And her time has not been wasted- now she knows what kind of man to avoid in the future. I can't see a single positive aspect of this relationship.
posted by KateViolet at 4:13 PM on November 5, 2014 [16 favorites]
posted by KateViolet at 4:13 PM on November 5, 2014 [16 favorites]
Please, please don't marry him, he is not going to get any better. You will be absolutely fine as a 21 year old single person, I promise you. You will be soooooooo much happier without this stress. Enjoy your college years!
Whether he's legally entitled to the ring back varies by state and I would do some research if you think he will contest this. But if it's between marrying this guy (and keeping the ring) or going further into debt, give it back and go further into debt.
posted by desjardins at 4:16 PM on November 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
Whether he's legally entitled to the ring back varies by state and I would do some research if you think he will contest this. But if it's between marrying this guy (and keeping the ring) or going further into debt, give it back and go further into debt.
posted by desjardins at 4:16 PM on November 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
That money is gone. Do not use it as an excuse to stay or an excuse to stay tied to him.
This is a crap relationship and it should not be saved, and do not throw additional effort into a bad relationship thinking you can save it. That is not how good relationships work.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:22 PM on November 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
This is a crap relationship and it should not be saved, and do not throw additional effort into a bad relationship thinking you can save it. That is not how good relationships work.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:22 PM on November 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
Get out. Go. Leave. This is not going to get better. Life will look so much brighter on the other side of this.
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:25 PM on November 5, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:25 PM on November 5, 2014 [6 favorites]
I just need to add my voice the chorus and encourage you to consider ending this relationship. If what you are saying about the money issue is true, that's enough of a deal breaker. It's one thing to have money issues, admit it, and keep working on it. It's another thing to dig in your heals on the issue at the literal expense of your partner while calling them a stupid motherfucker.
posted by SpacemanStix at 4:28 PM on November 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by SpacemanStix at 4:28 PM on November 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
Holy shit this sounds terrible.
Several of my friends were mired in 16~ to early or mid 20s relationships like this and just could not tell what direction was up anymore, and stayed for way too long. You're going to have to write off the money he owes you and just get the fuck out.
If we break up, he wants the engagement ring he gave me back and says that he will pay the credit card bills
This is never going to happen. Keep the ring, and take whatever is left in the joint account and pay down the credit card. He basically stole that money by getting cards in your name in the first place(why, i wonder, couldn't he get them in his? heh)
This is an opportunity, seize it and leave. And PLEASE just block him on social media and shit and don't talk to him again. All of my friends in relationships like this got hoovered back in several times before they really left, and are now at 24/25 much worse for wear because of it.
posted by emptythought at 4:32 PM on November 5, 2014 [20 favorites]
Several of my friends were mired in 16~ to early or mid 20s relationships like this and just could not tell what direction was up anymore, and stayed for way too long. You're going to have to write off the money he owes you and just get the fuck out.
If we break up, he wants the engagement ring he gave me back and says that he will pay the credit card bills
This is never going to happen. Keep the ring, and take whatever is left in the joint account and pay down the credit card. He basically stole that money by getting cards in your name in the first place(why, i wonder, couldn't he get them in his? heh)
This is an opportunity, seize it and leave. And PLEASE just block him on social media and shit and don't talk to him again. All of my friends in relationships like this got hoovered back in several times before they really left, and are now at 24/25 much worse for wear because of it.
posted by emptythought at 4:32 PM on November 5, 2014 [20 favorites]
This relationship sounds worse than any I can recall ever reading about on metafilter. Get out, right now.
posted by something something at 4:42 PM on November 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by something something at 4:42 PM on November 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
Last weekend, we broke up while he was here and he left and now I’m trying to figure out if this relationship is something that can be saved or if I should just stop trying.
Stop trying. It's over. It will be okay.
If we break up...
Nope, you already broke up, and thank god for that. Stay broken up.
he wants the engagement ring he gave me back and says that he will pay the credit card bills, but how can I trust that?
You're right, you can't! Keep the ring but prioritize your safety.
posted by bleep at 4:50 PM on November 5, 2014 [9 favorites]
Stop trying. It's over. It will be okay.
If we break up...
Nope, you already broke up, and thank god for that. Stay broken up.
he wants the engagement ring he gave me back and says that he will pay the credit card bills, but how can I trust that?
You're right, you can't! Keep the ring but prioritize your safety.
posted by bleep at 4:50 PM on November 5, 2014 [9 favorites]
You're well out of this.
Write up a promissory note for him that says that you'll hold the engagement ring as collateral for the credit card balances. Put a date on there by which the amounts have to be paid, and at that point, you'll be free to sell the ring to liquidate the debt. Make two copies, have him sign both, you sign both, and then you each keep a copy.
Then put a period on this and move on.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:55 PM on November 5, 2014 [8 favorites]
Write up a promissory note for him that says that you'll hold the engagement ring as collateral for the credit card balances. Put a date on there by which the amounts have to be paid, and at that point, you'll be free to sell the ring to liquidate the debt. Make two copies, have him sign both, you sign both, and then you each keep a copy.
Then put a period on this and move on.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:55 PM on November 5, 2014 [8 favorites]
Your relationship can't be fixed because you don't have a relationship problem. You have a boyfriend problem. And your boyfriend problem can be fixed by getting rid of your boyfriend.
posted by drlith at 5:08 PM on November 5, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by drlith at 5:08 PM on November 5, 2014 [10 favorites]
Christ, what an asshole.
drlith sums it up pretty well.
posted by radioamy at 5:09 PM on November 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
drlith sums it up pretty well.
posted by radioamy at 5:09 PM on November 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
Question to the actual poster, not the "friend." What advice did you give your friend?
posted by radioamy at 5:10 PM on November 5, 2014
posted by radioamy at 5:10 PM on November 5, 2014
If you suggested your friend put this in ask because you weren't sure you were getting through - good job.
Given the money issues and cheating, who would argue for the relationship?
Good luck to your friend.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 5:13 PM on November 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
Given the money issues and cheating, who would argue for the relationship?
Good luck to your friend.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 5:13 PM on November 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
I’m worried we have become really different people.
This may be the case and it is totally 100% okay and a thing that happens to even the healthiest of relationships.
he has cheated on me once before which has given me trust issues
I sort of think "trust issues" are what happens when a person has been cheated on in previous relationships and has a hard time trusting other people who are totally trustworthy. Not trusting someone who has proven himself untrustworthy is not the same thing. The burden of this, the responsibility of this, belongs on his shoulders, not hers.
he promised he would pay off and has only made one payment
Again, he is proving himself untrustworthy. He is the one that needs to make up ground here.
He calls me names...stupid mother******
This is not ever okay. Period. Disagreements, even serious arguments happen in the best of relationships. But the disagreements should be about the topic, not the partners. Not the character, not the intelligence, not the appearance. Not about the partners but about the topic.
uses this to accuse me of cheating. I don’t show my feelings very much and I know that is my problem and have acknowledged that, but he continues to argue with me about it and says that I don’t love him
This is shitty, manipulative behavior. Not okay either.
he is constantly pressure me about sex and having sex without a condom
A person is allowed to have complete autonomy over herself. This is not to say that this aspect of the relationship should never be negotiated and compromises should never be made but there absolutely must be respect for both peoples needs and desires. He is not showing that he gives a damn about what she wants.
I hate to let our relationship end since we have been together so long and are engaged
A relationship should maybe be salvaged if most of it is good and the partners truly love and respect each other - and both want to move forward with a strong healthy relationship and are willing to do the work to get there. I'm not seeing that here. I'm not trying to discount her feelings here but these are not good reasons to stick around with a cheating, manipulative jerk. "Because I've always done it" is not a good reason to keep doing it.
I have never been single as an adult and this is causing me a lot of anxiety.
I'm sure it's hard to envision such a major life change. It's perfectly reasonable to feel anxious about that. But it is totally possible. What sounds better? Complete autonomy, control over your vacations, your money, your body? Or being left alone in a camper while some guy goes out and spends your money? (And with no internet? Fuck that.)
I like what Ruthless Bunny said about the promissory note but I wouldn't get my hopes up. Be prepared to write off both the ring and the credit card debt. And call it paying for a lesson learned.
Good luck!
posted by Beti at 5:13 PM on November 5, 2014 [7 favorites]
This may be the case and it is totally 100% okay and a thing that happens to even the healthiest of relationships.
he has cheated on me once before which has given me trust issues
I sort of think "trust issues" are what happens when a person has been cheated on in previous relationships and has a hard time trusting other people who are totally trustworthy. Not trusting someone who has proven himself untrustworthy is not the same thing. The burden of this, the responsibility of this, belongs on his shoulders, not hers.
he promised he would pay off and has only made one payment
Again, he is proving himself untrustworthy. He is the one that needs to make up ground here.
He calls me names...stupid mother******
This is not ever okay. Period. Disagreements, even serious arguments happen in the best of relationships. But the disagreements should be about the topic, not the partners. Not the character, not the intelligence, not the appearance. Not about the partners but about the topic.
uses this to accuse me of cheating. I don’t show my feelings very much and I know that is my problem and have acknowledged that, but he continues to argue with me about it and says that I don’t love him
This is shitty, manipulative behavior. Not okay either.
he is constantly pressure me about sex and having sex without a condom
A person is allowed to have complete autonomy over herself. This is not to say that this aspect of the relationship should never be negotiated and compromises should never be made but there absolutely must be respect for both peoples needs and desires. He is not showing that he gives a damn about what she wants.
I hate to let our relationship end since we have been together so long and are engaged
A relationship should maybe be salvaged if most of it is good and the partners truly love and respect each other - and both want to move forward with a strong healthy relationship and are willing to do the work to get there. I'm not seeing that here. I'm not trying to discount her feelings here but these are not good reasons to stick around with a cheating, manipulative jerk. "Because I've always done it" is not a good reason to keep doing it.
I have never been single as an adult and this is causing me a lot of anxiety.
I'm sure it's hard to envision such a major life change. It's perfectly reasonable to feel anxious about that. But it is totally possible. What sounds better? Complete autonomy, control over your vacations, your money, your body? Or being left alone in a camper while some guy goes out and spends your money? (And with no internet? Fuck that.)
I like what Ruthless Bunny said about the promissory note but I wouldn't get my hopes up. Be prepared to write off both the ring and the credit card debt. And call it paying for a lesson learned.
Good luck!
posted by Beti at 5:13 PM on November 5, 2014 [7 favorites]
I'm going to differ from the herd here.
Do you want to feel really really good about yourself?
Give him back the ring in a safe way (via a trusted family member, document the transaction) and then pay the credit card back yourself.
The money you pay the credit card that he now no longer owes you is what I like to call "Fuck You Money."
Fuck You Money(TM) is any amount of $$ I'm willing to pay to be free of whatever abusive shitty thing I need to get out of. Let your ex "keep" the loan you made him for the vacation by paying those cards off yourself. That's money you are paying to be FREE of this abusive person. It's money well spent on your part if you choose this route.
You are 21. Save yourself while you can.
Give him back the engagement ring (thought: maybe have him pick it up from the local police precinct - I'm totally serious) and block him on all social media, + pay the credit cards back yourself.
He's controlling, he's using you, and he sounds like he is developing a substance abuse problem.
You need to RUN before he destroys your 20's. Graduate from college. Get therapy if you feel like this abusive relationship is worth revisiting (hint: it's not.)
Cut the cord and move on. Protect yourself.
Protect yourself by giving him the ring AND absolving him of any $$ he owes you. Shut the door. Move on. Be safe.
Best of luck to you. Stay safe.
posted by jbenben at 5:16 PM on November 5, 2014 [8 favorites]
Do you want to feel really really good about yourself?
Give him back the ring in a safe way (via a trusted family member, document the transaction) and then pay the credit card back yourself.
The money you pay the credit card that he now no longer owes you is what I like to call "Fuck You Money."
Fuck You Money(TM) is any amount of $$ I'm willing to pay to be free of whatever abusive shitty thing I need to get out of. Let your ex "keep" the loan you made him for the vacation by paying those cards off yourself. That's money you are paying to be FREE of this abusive person. It's money well spent on your part if you choose this route.
You are 21. Save yourself while you can.
Give him back the engagement ring (thought: maybe have him pick it up from the local police precinct - I'm totally serious) and block him on all social media, + pay the credit cards back yourself.
He's controlling, he's using you, and he sounds like he is developing a substance abuse problem.
You need to RUN before he destroys your 20's. Graduate from college. Get therapy if you feel like this abusive relationship is worth revisiting (hint: it's not.)
Cut the cord and move on. Protect yourself.
Protect yourself by giving him the ring AND absolving him of any $$ he owes you. Shut the door. Move on. Be safe.
Best of luck to you. Stay safe.
posted by jbenben at 5:16 PM on November 5, 2014 [8 favorites]
There is absolutely no way in which you are better off with him than without him. He puts you down and calls you names. He is not faithful. He makes unreasonable demands of you. He's in borderland-rape territory by disrespecting your wishes regarding sexual activity. He has ruined your credit rating. He is on a self-destructive path and wants to take you with him.
Without him, you are going to college. Get the part-time job. Pay back the credit card yourself. It will be hard, but not much harder than subsisting on $150 per week. Couch surf with friends for a while if you have to. Get yourself free and independent. Without him, you will be able to make decisions that you want. You will have so much more freedom without someone putting you down and demanding that you look after him all the time.
Do not communicate with him ever again. Ask someone to mail the engagement ring back to him. As tempting as it would be to sell it to pay off the credit card debt, I think it is probably worth sacrificing that poetic justice in the interests of not giving him a reason to harass and abuse you any further. Block him on social media, if you can't block his phone calls then change your number. Cut him right out and do not let him back into your life.
posted by Athanassiel at 5:24 PM on November 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
Without him, you are going to college. Get the part-time job. Pay back the credit card yourself. It will be hard, but not much harder than subsisting on $150 per week. Couch surf with friends for a while if you have to. Get yourself free and independent. Without him, you will be able to make decisions that you want. You will have so much more freedom without someone putting you down and demanding that you look after him all the time.
Do not communicate with him ever again. Ask someone to mail the engagement ring back to him. As tempting as it would be to sell it to pay off the credit card debt, I think it is probably worth sacrificing that poetic justice in the interests of not giving him a reason to harass and abuse you any further. Block him on social media, if you can't block his phone calls then change your number. Cut him right out and do not let him back into your life.
posted by Athanassiel at 5:24 PM on November 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
Two things i also thought of after my brain marinated for a minute.
Write up a promissory note for him that says that you'll hold the engagement ring as collateral for the credit card balances.
This is a great way to let the person worm back in to your life. Any timed commitment like this means they have a reason to be in contact with you and text you and bug you and bother you for that entire time period. This is a terrible idea, do not do this.
Engagement rings are some weird no mans land of gifts, where it somehow is an anomaly in that it's ok to ask for it back. I think the debt kind of balances the scales here, because he's just being a deadbeat and could clearly pay it down in a couple months. Hell, not paying it seems like some sort of financial abuse/controlling thing to me even beyond just flaccid irresponsibility.
Whatever happens here though, do something that gives finality and ends it now. "I sold it, never talk to me again" is an ending. jbenbens solution is also an ending, but one that i feel is really unfair to you and kind of falling on the sword just to get out of it. You have an easy out to recover most of your money here, use it.
To respond directly to the original post though, as well
I hate to let our relationship end since we have been together so long and are engaged
This is like, the platonic ideal of a sunk cost fallacy. It is like, a central pillar of how zombie crap relationships like this continue to live on.
Do you really believe anything is going to change, is there any evidence of positive change? or is it just "oh jeeze, i've gone this far in to this, i can't just give up now or i'm a quitter!" sort of thing. Because it really awfully sounds like that.
posted by emptythought at 5:26 PM on November 5, 2014 [7 favorites]
Write up a promissory note for him that says that you'll hold the engagement ring as collateral for the credit card balances.
This is a great way to let the person worm back in to your life. Any timed commitment like this means they have a reason to be in contact with you and text you and bug you and bother you for that entire time period. This is a terrible idea, do not do this.
Engagement rings are some weird no mans land of gifts, where it somehow is an anomaly in that it's ok to ask for it back. I think the debt kind of balances the scales here, because he's just being a deadbeat and could clearly pay it down in a couple months. Hell, not paying it seems like some sort of financial abuse/controlling thing to me even beyond just flaccid irresponsibility.
Whatever happens here though, do something that gives finality and ends it now. "I sold it, never talk to me again" is an ending. jbenbens solution is also an ending, but one that i feel is really unfair to you and kind of falling on the sword just to get out of it. You have an easy out to recover most of your money here, use it.
To respond directly to the original post though, as well
I hate to let our relationship end since we have been together so long and are engaged
This is like, the platonic ideal of a sunk cost fallacy. It is like, a central pillar of how zombie crap relationships like this continue to live on.
Do you really believe anything is going to change, is there any evidence of positive change? or is it just "oh jeeze, i've gone this far in to this, i can't just give up now or i'm a quitter!" sort of thing. Because it really awfully sounds like that.
posted by emptythought at 5:26 PM on November 5, 2014 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: In response to radioamy - I gave her much of the same advice that has been given here. I really wanted her to see that other people agree to try and get through to her, like Lesser Shrew said. She's been my best friend for our entire lives and is my cousin, so it kills me to see her hurting like this. Thank you all so much for the responses and advice.
posted by sarahgrace at 5:33 PM on November 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by sarahgrace at 5:33 PM on November 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
I want to disagree with myself and advise that you send him the ring back. On second thought I really doubt that it's worth enough to make that much of a difference to your debt, and it's better to get this guy out of your life completely.
posted by bleep at 6:18 PM on November 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by bleep at 6:18 PM on November 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
Regarding the pain of having to repay the credit card debts, here's an old joke that may help.
Q. Why is divorce so expensive?
A. Because it's worth it.
It's funny because it's true. Good luck and stay strong.
posted by carmicha at 7:14 PM on November 5, 2014 [9 favorites]
Q. Why is divorce so expensive?
A. Because it's worth it.
It's funny because it's true. Good luck and stay strong.
posted by carmicha at 7:14 PM on November 5, 2014 [9 favorites]
I see a lot of questions here where people are ready to give up on relationships too easily and over stuff that isn't that important. Then there are some where people are hanging on to what is only a miserable mess, and have blinded themselves to it.
This is one of the miserable messes.
This dude will never pay the money he owes your friend. She should give up on that. She cannot get back the time she invested in him (but she can waste more months or years on him). She should give back the stupid ring, cut her losses and move on.
posted by mattu at 7:17 PM on November 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
This is one of the miserable messes.
This dude will never pay the money he owes your friend. She should give up on that. She cannot get back the time she invested in him (but she can waste more months or years on him). She should give back the stupid ring, cut her losses and move on.
posted by mattu at 7:17 PM on November 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oh yeah, and being single as an adult ROCKS. Don't fall headfirst into the next guy who comes around either, unless you are really clear that it's just a short-term fun thing. Take some time to figure out who you are, what you want, what's important to you. Coz this guy you're with has done a number on you and it takes some time to work through that stuff. Be prepared to have some moments where you think, it wasn't that bad, I miss him so much, maybe we can get back together again! Then remind yourself of how no one's calling you a motherf'er for wanting to get a job, how you don't have to hang out in a crappy trailer by yourself, etc etc. Get a packet of cookies or buy yourself flowers or do something to congratulate yourself for staying the hell away from him.
Someday, probably years from now, you will be happy and secure in a relationship with someone who loves and honours you and treats you with respect and you will look back on now and think, what the hell was I thinking? But be easy on yourself too, some of us need to learn how to value ourselves by going through the fire first.
posted by Athanassiel at 7:22 PM on November 5, 2014 [9 favorites]
Someday, probably years from now, you will be happy and secure in a relationship with someone who loves and honours you and treats you with respect and you will look back on now and think, what the hell was I thinking? But be easy on yourself too, some of us need to learn how to value ourselves by going through the fire first.
posted by Athanassiel at 7:22 PM on November 5, 2014 [9 favorites]
Oh and regarding sex, if this is your only long term intimate relationship, don't write yourself off as unaffectionate or not into it just yet. You set sexual patterns with your now-ex boyfriend when you were both young and clueless. You may discover heretofore unknown rapture with some new guy... and then reach new heights with a different person... and surpass that with someone else. The more you know about yourself, your body and sex itself the better it can be. The same is true of love relationships. Give yourself the opportunity to find out.
posted by carmicha at 7:36 PM on November 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by carmicha at 7:36 PM on November 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yep, get out. But if his folks like you and you think they might be willing and able to cover the credit card debt, ask.
posted by Scram at 7:42 PM on November 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Scram at 7:42 PM on November 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
If you had an online cause that I could donate to to help you pay off this credit card debt, I would gladly make a sizable donation if you would promise to leave this man and stay as far away from him as possible from now until forever.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 7:46 PM on November 5, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by treehorn+bunny at 7:46 PM on November 5, 2014 [9 favorites]
I'm also going to tell your friend to give back the ring (I would send it certified or registered mail--whichever one requires him to sign for a receipt so that he can't claim she didn't give it back to him) and pay the money back herself. She's not going to get much for the ring even if it were extremely nice which, according to the description of this guy's finances, I can't imagine it could be.
So: damage control time. The credit rating (400-500!) is a big but not insurmountable problem. She's only 21 and probably not applying for a mortgage anytime soon. Have her call the credit card company, explain the situation to them, get it noted in her file, and ask how she can make it better. Having a plan with the cc company and sticking to it is going to help her credit history rebuild and won't take forever. To bolster that, she must not be late with any kind of utility, etc., bill because she doesn't have a long enough credit history to offset that.
And remind her she's only 21! Sunk cost fallacy is silly anytime, but at 21 it's ridiculous to think, "Well, I've been with him for 5 years, so I guess we'll just be together for another 60." Have her concentrate on her own thing and not let him be back in contact with her (removing the ring issue will help with that).
And tell her that she will be so, so happy to not have to worry about this anymore. Give her a big hug from an internet stranger who has had bad relationships and marveled about how great it can be when you come out from under them.
posted by sfkiddo at 7:51 PM on November 5, 2014 [6 favorites]
So: damage control time. The credit rating (400-500!) is a big but not insurmountable problem. She's only 21 and probably not applying for a mortgage anytime soon. Have her call the credit card company, explain the situation to them, get it noted in her file, and ask how she can make it better. Having a plan with the cc company and sticking to it is going to help her credit history rebuild and won't take forever. To bolster that, she must not be late with any kind of utility, etc., bill because she doesn't have a long enough credit history to offset that.
And remind her she's only 21! Sunk cost fallacy is silly anytime, but at 21 it's ridiculous to think, "Well, I've been with him for 5 years, so I guess we'll just be together for another 60." Have her concentrate on her own thing and not let him be back in contact with her (removing the ring issue will help with that).
And tell her that she will be so, so happy to not have to worry about this anymore. Give her a big hug from an internet stranger who has had bad relationships and marveled about how great it can be when you come out from under them.
posted by sfkiddo at 7:51 PM on November 5, 2014 [6 favorites]
You know, I might also change my answer to writing off the money. My ex owed me some money when we broke up, but I accepted that I might not get it back and at least I was rid of him (and I learnt a huge lesson for the future!). But he did actually end up paying me back, which was a bonus.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 8:36 PM on November 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by kinddieserzeit at 8:36 PM on November 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
Give the ring back and get as far away from this piece of crap as possible. If you keep the ring as collateral that gives him an excuse to contact you. This isn't time wasted; you've learned a great deal about what is not acceptable in a healthy r'ship.
What would he be like as a father if you accidentally got pregnant? Leave. Now.
You will be fine being single. Please don't let the fear of being alone keep you shackled to this monster.
posted by cdg7707 at 9:16 PM on November 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
What would he be like as a father if you accidentally got pregnant? Leave. Now.
You will be fine being single. Please don't let the fear of being alone keep you shackled to this monster.
posted by cdg7707 at 9:16 PM on November 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
Good heavens... Just another vote for DUMP HIM.
Life and relationships can be soooo much better than this. She's young and has plenty of time!
posted by jrobin276 at 9:45 PM on November 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
Life and relationships can be soooo much better than this. She's young and has plenty of time!
posted by jrobin276 at 9:45 PM on November 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
I knew a few high-school-sweetheart type couples who had dysfunctional relationships, yet remained entangled into their early-to-mid twenties. I'm sure it was no fun for them, and the grinding unhappiness made everyone around them uncomfortable, too.
Speaking as someone who didn't really make progress towards being an "adult" -- including staying a bit too long in a couple of unhealthy/unbalanced relationships of my own -- until my very late twenties, I have to nth the idea that someone at this age has no reason not to cut their losses. There are so many better people, and better situations, over that seemingly impossible horizon.
As for the credit issue... I know it feels dire (and the increased weight accorded to credit ratings does have the potential to cause problems, long term) to have a low rating and some lingering debt. But again, as a late-bloomer, I'll say that this is a minor problem relative to being miserable. I got my first credit card at roughly 31, having racked up some debts (student loan, medical, etc.) in the first decade of adulthood. I had a very poor rating at the time, but paying off those debts (where possible) and maintaining a simple use/pay system for a handful of years solved that problem. At last check, my rating was at the highest end of the range. This is a fixable thing, with care and patience; your friend's relationship isn't.
posted by credible hulk at 11:18 PM on November 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
Speaking as someone who didn't really make progress towards being an "adult" -- including staying a bit too long in a couple of unhealthy/unbalanced relationships of my own -- until my very late twenties, I have to nth the idea that someone at this age has no reason not to cut their losses. There are so many better people, and better situations, over that seemingly impossible horizon.
As for the credit issue... I know it feels dire (and the increased weight accorded to credit ratings does have the potential to cause problems, long term) to have a low rating and some lingering debt. But again, as a late-bloomer, I'll say that this is a minor problem relative to being miserable. I got my first credit card at roughly 31, having racked up some debts (student loan, medical, etc.) in the first decade of adulthood. I had a very poor rating at the time, but paying off those debts (where possible) and maintaining a simple use/pay system for a handful of years solved that problem. At last check, my rating was at the highest end of the range. This is a fixable thing, with care and patience; your friend's relationship isn't.
posted by credible hulk at 11:18 PM on November 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
This relationship is not worth saving. There are guys out there who are so much better than this man, in so many ways. You are so lucky to escape now, while you have a support network and a family near you.
First step: If he is still an authorized user on ANY credit card you have, take him off right now. Seriously, call the card company RIGHT NOW and take him off.
Second step: Get your free credit reports and see if he has taken out any other debt in your name. (Link. This is free. You should be able to get the reports online and print them, but sometimes they send them... no major dramas.) If he has taken out other debt in your name, well, that's an issue. The sooner you know, the better.
Third step: Your college may have resources for free counseling, or there may be programs in your area through domestic violence groups. I would consider finding someone to talk to about this. It sounds like an abusive relationship with a lot of red flags, and I suspect there's a lot of gaslighting/sick system stuff that we don't know about. It sounds like this guy has done a number on you. This is when you need a strong Team You to be on your side. Look into programs that might help.
As far as the ring goes: The market in second-hand engagement rings is crap, and I would be very surprised if it brought more than $500, even if it cost a lot more than that new. It almost certainly won't be "pay off credit cards in full" type money. If you wanted to, you could bring it in to a local pawn shop or jeweler and get their opinion about how much it's worth. I suspect the answer may be surprisingly low.
More importantly, it sounds like your Darth Vader ex will use the ring as a way to maintain a relationship with you. Severing that hold is worth the price of a ring.
posted by pie ninja at 5:36 AM on November 6, 2014 [4 favorites]
First step: If he is still an authorized user on ANY credit card you have, take him off right now. Seriously, call the card company RIGHT NOW and take him off.
Second step: Get your free credit reports and see if he has taken out any other debt in your name. (Link. This is free. You should be able to get the reports online and print them, but sometimes they send them... no major dramas.) If he has taken out other debt in your name, well, that's an issue. The sooner you know, the better.
Third step: Your college may have resources for free counseling, or there may be programs in your area through domestic violence groups. I would consider finding someone to talk to about this. It sounds like an abusive relationship with a lot of red flags, and I suspect there's a lot of gaslighting/sick system stuff that we don't know about. It sounds like this guy has done a number on you. This is when you need a strong Team You to be on your side. Look into programs that might help.
As far as the ring goes: The market in second-hand engagement rings is crap, and I would be very surprised if it brought more than $500, even if it cost a lot more than that new. It almost certainly won't be "pay off credit cards in full" type money. If you wanted to, you could bring it in to a local pawn shop or jeweler and get their opinion about how much it's worth. I suspect the answer may be surprisingly low.
More importantly, it sounds like your Darth Vader ex will use the ring as a way to maintain a relationship with you. Severing that hold is worth the price of a ring.
posted by pie ninja at 5:36 AM on November 6, 2014 [4 favorites]
Everybody has chimed in most usefully. However, OP, sometimes it is very very hard to get someone entangled in this dynamic to see it with an outside eye. These two have had 5 years during which the habit she has of looking out for his interests while ignoring her own have been reinforced.
The thing is, the behaviour he's doing, abusive and manipulative as it is, has a further, deliberate purpose. He is actively trying to back her into a corner where the choice to leave becomes impossible.
1. He is isolating her from family and other friends: the camper van. This also ensures she doesn't develop any other relationships outside of theirs, including friendships she would otherwise be making as a college student.
2. He is sabotaging her progress in college: the camper van etc. Also see point 3.
3. He is actively and deliberately trying to get her pregnant.
Now the money stuff (You're spending all my money!) and the name-calling are just par for the course in abusive relationships but funnily enough they also work to cut down her options by damaging her credit rating and hurting her self-esteem. However, that's the sort of name calling that turns into hitting once the guy is confident enough she has nowhere to go.
Also from what you said, she's already deeply into the thing where everything that happens is her responsibility to fix - at 21! Perhaps she'll be more worried about him if she leaves than about herself if she stays. So I wonder if you can usefully encourage her to think through what her life will be like if she's living in a camper van in the woods with this guy with little children, bad credit, no college degree, with a guy who shouts at her, calls her stupid in front of the children (or beats her) and blames her for spending the drinking money on food and bills. What if it's herself who has to go out earning on several low-wage jobs while he stays at home 'to look after the children' (in much the same way he looks after her) because some foreman somewhere 'has it in for him'? And so on.
The thing is, your life expands so much in your late teens/early twenties that with the best will in the world relations that start at 16 tend to hold both parties back from wider opportunities. But in the case of your friend it's really clear that she's involved in a dynamic that unfolds in fairly typical way, so much so that people reading can almost exactly predict what the guy would say if challenged on any of this stuff. IT IS A COMPLETELY ABUSIVE DYNAMIC. You know this. Everybody reading also knows. I hope your friend can see it now it's all written down.
posted by glasseyes at 6:09 AM on November 6, 2014 [5 favorites]
The thing is, the behaviour he's doing, abusive and manipulative as it is, has a further, deliberate purpose. He is actively trying to back her into a corner where the choice to leave becomes impossible.
1. He is isolating her from family and other friends: the camper van. This also ensures she doesn't develop any other relationships outside of theirs, including friendships she would otherwise be making as a college student.
2. He is sabotaging her progress in college: the camper van etc. Also see point 3.
3. He is actively and deliberately trying to get her pregnant.
Now the money stuff (You're spending all my money!) and the name-calling are just par for the course in abusive relationships but funnily enough they also work to cut down her options by damaging her credit rating and hurting her self-esteem. However, that's the sort of name calling that turns into hitting once the guy is confident enough she has nowhere to go.
Also from what you said, she's already deeply into the thing where everything that happens is her responsibility to fix - at 21! Perhaps she'll be more worried about him if she leaves than about herself if she stays. So I wonder if you can usefully encourage her to think through what her life will be like if she's living in a camper van in the woods with this guy with little children, bad credit, no college degree, with a guy who shouts at her, calls her stupid in front of the children (or beats her) and blames her for spending the drinking money on food and bills. What if it's herself who has to go out earning on several low-wage jobs while he stays at home 'to look after the children' (in much the same way he looks after her) because some foreman somewhere 'has it in for him'? And so on.
The thing is, your life expands so much in your late teens/early twenties that with the best will in the world relations that start at 16 tend to hold both parties back from wider opportunities. But in the case of your friend it's really clear that she's involved in a dynamic that unfolds in fairly typical way, so much so that people reading can almost exactly predict what the guy would say if challenged on any of this stuff. IT IS A COMPLETELY ABUSIVE DYNAMIC. You know this. Everybody reading also knows. I hope your friend can see it now it's all written down.
posted by glasseyes at 6:09 AM on November 6, 2014 [5 favorites]
Yeah, and she needs to close the joint account before she does anything else.
If she's lucky, he was ok with breaking up because there's another girl near his work he thinks he has a chance with. Sucks to be that girl but it will give your friend some breathing space. She can start disentangling her finances without too much push back.
posted by glasseyes at 8:06 AM on November 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
If she's lucky, he was ok with breaking up because there's another girl near his work he thinks he has a chance with. Sucks to be that girl but it will give your friend some breathing space. She can start disentangling her finances without too much push back.
posted by glasseyes at 8:06 AM on November 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
neither of us are anywhere near ready to have a child
There's a word for people who have sex without some type of birth control (such as condoms). That word is "parents". He's trying to turn you into one, even if he says he's not ready to be one.
he will pay the credit card bills, but how can I trust that?
Well you can't, which is why people are telling you to sell the ring.
Maybe you are thinking you can't break up with him because he might not pay the bills. Guess what, he might not pay them if you stay together either! In fact he might run up more bills that he doesn't pay.
Get his name off any joint accounts, credit cards, utilities, etc.
I hate to let our relationship end since we have been together so long and are engaged. I have never been single as an adult and this is causing me a lot of anxiety.
Oh honey. I know this seems hard now, but this is one of those things where you've gotta do what needs to be done, just like the rotten thing in the fridge that will smell oh so bad to clean up and be so icky -- if you ignore it it's just going to be a bigger mess.
There's a wonderful like out there waiting for you once you are free of this man. Maybe it will be hard to let people know that you aren't engaged, and it will be hard to be single for the first time, but in a month everything is going to be so much better.
Being single in your adult life is great, no one tries to get you to hang out in a camper for 11 hours a day on your vacations, or tries to get you pregnant, or spends all your money or anything.
You are going to have so much more time and so many fewer worries. There will still be worries -- everyone has worries -- but different worries, and better worries to have. Even time being bored is better when you're not being bored because someone else insisted you act a certain way -- you can do what you want.
posted by yohko at 12:53 PM on November 6, 2014 [4 favorites]
There's a word for people who have sex without some type of birth control (such as condoms). That word is "parents". He's trying to turn you into one, even if he says he's not ready to be one.
he will pay the credit card bills, but how can I trust that?
Well you can't, which is why people are telling you to sell the ring.
Maybe you are thinking you can't break up with him because he might not pay the bills. Guess what, he might not pay them if you stay together either! In fact he might run up more bills that he doesn't pay.
Get his name off any joint accounts, credit cards, utilities, etc.
I hate to let our relationship end since we have been together so long and are engaged. I have never been single as an adult and this is causing me a lot of anxiety.
Oh honey. I know this seems hard now, but this is one of those things where you've gotta do what needs to be done, just like the rotten thing in the fridge that will smell oh so bad to clean up and be so icky -- if you ignore it it's just going to be a bigger mess.
There's a wonderful like out there waiting for you once you are free of this man. Maybe it will be hard to let people know that you aren't engaged, and it will be hard to be single for the first time, but in a month everything is going to be so much better.
Being single in your adult life is great, no one tries to get you to hang out in a camper for 11 hours a day on your vacations, or tries to get you pregnant, or spends all your money or anything.
You are going to have so much more time and so many fewer worries. There will still be worries -- everyone has worries -- but different worries, and better worries to have. Even time being bored is better when you're not being bored because someone else insisted you act a certain way -- you can do what you want.
posted by yohko at 12:53 PM on November 6, 2014 [4 favorites]
Stop trying.
Whether or not this guy sounds like a jerk, you certainly sound like you are two very different people who are on very different paths at this point. Keep going on your separate paths.
posted by thegoldfish at 1:35 PM on November 6, 2014
Whether or not this guy sounds like a jerk, you certainly sound like you are two very different people who are on very different paths at this point. Keep going on your separate paths.
posted by thegoldfish at 1:35 PM on November 6, 2014
In regards to the ring: an engagement ring is a gift in contemplation of marriage. If the marriage doesn't happen, the ring goes back to the purchaser. However, in this case, I would go with him to sell the ring and take the cash immediately, otherwise you won't be seeing it and will be stuck with the credit card bills.
posted by thegoldfish at 1:38 PM on November 6, 2014
posted by thegoldfish at 1:38 PM on November 6, 2014
I think breaking up might give both of you the best chance to grow. I hope thinking about it that way makes this easier.
posted by bq at 5:08 PM on November 10, 2014
posted by bq at 5:08 PM on November 10, 2014
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You're not on the hook to give him back the engagement ring, that was a gift to you. Sell it to cover the credit card bills and move on, or else only give it back to him once he's given you the *cash* to cover the credit debt. You've got a long life ahead of you, enjoy it!
posted by Andrhia at 4:08 PM on November 5, 2014 [10 favorites]