Help me understand dysfunctional families
May 21, 2014 9:02 AM Subscribe
I think my boyfriends father is a plain old bully and I can’t understand my boyfriends way of dealing with him. Please help, I really need some perspective on this matter.
Boyfriend and I are in our (mid/late) twenties and have been together for almost four years now. I have met his family very early on in our relationship. We do not live together. Boyfriend moved back in with his parents due to financial issues when our relationship started and eventually moved out of in November last year.
Boyfriends father is a very dominant man who can also be very manipulative. He controls everything in the family and heavily impacts the overall atmosphere. He’s also very negative. I think I never heard him say anything positive – at least not about a person; sometimes food or tv shows get his approval, but most of the time he’s talking, he’s complaining. Also, there is a lot of swearing and calling names. When I am around he calls his wife and sons names a lot. Like multiple times per person per visit. Besides that there are general negative comments, about their weight, intelligence appearance, how they forgot to pick up after them (note: he doesn’t clean ever) etc. This stuff doesn’t limit itself to family members, but also friends, acquaintances and all kinds of people in general. Derogatory remarks are made about almost every minority imaginable. He tries to hold it in in public, but not really.
Let me sketch a typical situation that occurred twice (yes, twice) when I went on a trip with them a month ago. We were in a coffee shop and everybody finished their drinks except his wife. He wants to go on and visit something and is getting impatient. First, he orders his wife to drink her coffee. She says she’s almost finished and it wouldn’t hurt waiting two minutes. But he’s getting more and more impatient, starts commenting some more, starts calling her names and eventually gets up and leaves, even though she’s still drinking her coffee. Boyfriend and I stay and tell her she doesn’t need to rush and shouldn’t bother about him leaving, but she says something like “well, I have been drinking my coffee slowly, so we should just go”, gets up and leaves.
When I read this back, I’m stunned by how horrible it sounds on paper. I should notice that this seems the way they deal with each other mutually (the being negative, complaining, swearing and such), even though boyfriends brother and mother do so way less than his father. When his father is not around, they generally don’t really do this and they are much more okay to be around. Both his parents are extremely socially isolated and do not have close friends or other family members. They really cling to their sons. I feel like they have no idea of social norms and acceptable behaviour. His father (and the rest of the family) also do not really understand what he’s doing wrong. Even a simple statement like “l don’t like it when you say that” gets met with a complete lack of understanding and 99% of the time, he starts to argue about what’s wrong with you for feeling hurt by his comments.
Boyfriend has been to therapy last year to deal with several issues, but mostly his family. He used to also make excuses for his fathers behaviour and did everything he told him to. Now he’s much more assertive and he calls his father out (but not always) on his behaviour. I noticed that his father also seems to comment on him/ calls him names less often than he does his other son and wife. Still, if I were my boyfriend, I would call him out on that too. It even hurts me when he talks to his family members like that and often, I get furious inside because of it.
Now, the problem is, I cannot understand how my boyfriend deals with his family. He works for his father at the family business, where he works at least one day a week (he’s in college). Also, they call each other daily, sometimes multiple times a day. He also visits them almost every week, often for the whole weekend. When he visits (and I’m around to notice), he acts like he is okay with his fathers behaviour most of the time. Boyfriends strategy, approved by his therapist apparently, is to just ignore everything. He says he trained himself not to feel anything when his father starts ranting and therefor he doesn’t need to call him on it or state his boundaries. I find this unbelievable (in both senses of the word, but mostly that I really don’t believe it).
Needless to say, my family is very different. Swearing and name calling is not ever ever ever tolerated in our family and everybody is kind to each other. Everybody speaks to each other kindly and loving. I know I am at least a bit sensitive to negative comments in general because of this, but I do not feel that is a bad quality in general. I am also very conflict avoidant and if I’m uncomfortable in a situation and I can’t change it, I just leave. When people start calling me names and will not stop when I ask them to, I leave. When there are people who are very unpleasant to be around because they do not respect my boundaries, I limit my contact with them. Sure, none of my family members fall in this category, so I don’t know what I would do if that was the case.
The problem is, I cannot find a lot of understanding for my boyfriends family and the way he deals with it. Can you please tell me whether I am crazy and overreacting? I feel like I don’t know what is normal, what is acceptable and unacceptable anymore, that includes my boyfriends fathers behaviour and his way of dealing with it. I would especially appreciate to hear how other people with horrible families deal with them and what their take is on this matter, because the only people I know took (maybe) extreme measures and cut off contact with these family members. Reading recommendations that would help me understand would also welcome.
Boyfriend and I are in our (mid/late) twenties and have been together for almost four years now. I have met his family very early on in our relationship. We do not live together. Boyfriend moved back in with his parents due to financial issues when our relationship started and eventually moved out of in November last year.
Boyfriends father is a very dominant man who can also be very manipulative. He controls everything in the family and heavily impacts the overall atmosphere. He’s also very negative. I think I never heard him say anything positive – at least not about a person; sometimes food or tv shows get his approval, but most of the time he’s talking, he’s complaining. Also, there is a lot of swearing and calling names. When I am around he calls his wife and sons names a lot. Like multiple times per person per visit. Besides that there are general negative comments, about their weight, intelligence appearance, how they forgot to pick up after them (note: he doesn’t clean ever) etc. This stuff doesn’t limit itself to family members, but also friends, acquaintances and all kinds of people in general. Derogatory remarks are made about almost every minority imaginable. He tries to hold it in in public, but not really.
Let me sketch a typical situation that occurred twice (yes, twice) when I went on a trip with them a month ago. We were in a coffee shop and everybody finished their drinks except his wife. He wants to go on and visit something and is getting impatient. First, he orders his wife to drink her coffee. She says she’s almost finished and it wouldn’t hurt waiting two minutes. But he’s getting more and more impatient, starts commenting some more, starts calling her names and eventually gets up and leaves, even though she’s still drinking her coffee. Boyfriend and I stay and tell her she doesn’t need to rush and shouldn’t bother about him leaving, but she says something like “well, I have been drinking my coffee slowly, so we should just go”, gets up and leaves.
When I read this back, I’m stunned by how horrible it sounds on paper. I should notice that this seems the way they deal with each other mutually (the being negative, complaining, swearing and such), even though boyfriends brother and mother do so way less than his father. When his father is not around, they generally don’t really do this and they are much more okay to be around. Both his parents are extremely socially isolated and do not have close friends or other family members. They really cling to their sons. I feel like they have no idea of social norms and acceptable behaviour. His father (and the rest of the family) also do not really understand what he’s doing wrong. Even a simple statement like “l don’t like it when you say that” gets met with a complete lack of understanding and 99% of the time, he starts to argue about what’s wrong with you for feeling hurt by his comments.
Boyfriend has been to therapy last year to deal with several issues, but mostly his family. He used to also make excuses for his fathers behaviour and did everything he told him to. Now he’s much more assertive and he calls his father out (but not always) on his behaviour. I noticed that his father also seems to comment on him/ calls him names less often than he does his other son and wife. Still, if I were my boyfriend, I would call him out on that too. It even hurts me when he talks to his family members like that and often, I get furious inside because of it.
Now, the problem is, I cannot understand how my boyfriend deals with his family. He works for his father at the family business, where he works at least one day a week (he’s in college). Also, they call each other daily, sometimes multiple times a day. He also visits them almost every week, often for the whole weekend. When he visits (and I’m around to notice), he acts like he is okay with his fathers behaviour most of the time. Boyfriends strategy, approved by his therapist apparently, is to just ignore everything. He says he trained himself not to feel anything when his father starts ranting and therefor he doesn’t need to call him on it or state his boundaries. I find this unbelievable (in both senses of the word, but mostly that I really don’t believe it).
Needless to say, my family is very different. Swearing and name calling is not ever ever ever tolerated in our family and everybody is kind to each other. Everybody speaks to each other kindly and loving. I know I am at least a bit sensitive to negative comments in general because of this, but I do not feel that is a bad quality in general. I am also very conflict avoidant and if I’m uncomfortable in a situation and I can’t change it, I just leave. When people start calling me names and will not stop when I ask them to, I leave. When there are people who are very unpleasant to be around because they do not respect my boundaries, I limit my contact with them. Sure, none of my family members fall in this category, so I don’t know what I would do if that was the case.
The problem is, I cannot find a lot of understanding for my boyfriends family and the way he deals with it. Can you please tell me whether I am crazy and overreacting? I feel like I don’t know what is normal, what is acceptable and unacceptable anymore, that includes my boyfriends fathers behaviour and his way of dealing with it. I would especially appreciate to hear how other people with horrible families deal with them and what their take is on this matter, because the only people I know took (maybe) extreme measures and cut off contact with these family members. Reading recommendations that would help me understand would also welcome.
Best answer: Everyone thinks they grew up in a normal family, and they did. Normal for them.
If you grew up in a family where abusive language and behavior were not a thing, then it can seem utterly bizarre to watch someone (especially someone you love) navigate that like it's just no big thing - because for them, it's not. Everyone develops their own coping mechanisms.
Someone will be along to recommend books, I'm sure, but there's a lot on askme about abusive relationships. Poke around in search and via tags and you'll find all kinds of helpful insights and reading recommendations.
posted by rtha at 9:14 AM on May 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
If you grew up in a family where abusive language and behavior were not a thing, then it can seem utterly bizarre to watch someone (especially someone you love) navigate that like it's just no big thing - because for them, it's not. Everyone develops their own coping mechanisms.
Someone will be along to recommend books, I'm sure, but there's a lot on askme about abusive relationships. Poke around in search and via tags and you'll find all kinds of helpful insights and reading recommendations.
posted by rtha at 9:14 AM on May 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Normally I'd tell you to RUN AWAY! But your BF is making an honest effort to create boundaries.
The father sounds like a nightmare (and a narcissist) Dealing with a narcissist is all about boundaries. If Dad is acting badly, leave.
Now, your BF has started, but either he sticks with it, or he doesn't. If he doesn't you need to bail, because I don't see a good future in joining this kind of family, for you or for any potential children.
Now, there's nothing stopping you from saying anything about his behavior. I call my mom on her shit all the time. I tolerate about 60% of her crap, but if it's egregious, I'll say, "Mom, that's not nice, pull your claws in or I'm leaving." I have left a number of times, many on vacation in other cities requiring rescheduling of flights.
Now, it's not healthy for your BF to have that much contact with his family. His money should come from another job. If Dad has control of BF's money, then BF will always have to kowtow to a certain extent.
Be mindful, and if it smells unhealthy, it's unhealthy. If your BF isn't making a lot of changes, it's okay to leave. This is not a good situation for him, but it's a terrible situation for you too. You don't owe these people anything and you have permission to leave.
Also BFs therapist sounds wrong about ignoring, without leaving or disentangling from the tight grip of the family, ignoring the bad behavior just reinforces it.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:16 AM on May 21, 2014 [9 favorites]
The father sounds like a nightmare (and a narcissist) Dealing with a narcissist is all about boundaries. If Dad is acting badly, leave.
Now, your BF has started, but either he sticks with it, or he doesn't. If he doesn't you need to bail, because I don't see a good future in joining this kind of family, for you or for any potential children.
Now, there's nothing stopping you from saying anything about his behavior. I call my mom on her shit all the time. I tolerate about 60% of her crap, but if it's egregious, I'll say, "Mom, that's not nice, pull your claws in or I'm leaving." I have left a number of times, many on vacation in other cities requiring rescheduling of flights.
Now, it's not healthy for your BF to have that much contact with his family. His money should come from another job. If Dad has control of BF's money, then BF will always have to kowtow to a certain extent.
Be mindful, and if it smells unhealthy, it's unhealthy. If your BF isn't making a lot of changes, it's okay to leave. This is not a good situation for him, but it's a terrible situation for you too. You don't owe these people anything and you have permission to leave.
Also BFs therapist sounds wrong about ignoring, without leaving or disentangling from the tight grip of the family, ignoring the bad behavior just reinforces it.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:16 AM on May 21, 2014 [9 favorites]
You may see some similar stories (and similar or different strategies) over on:
/r/raisedbynarcissists
/r/relationships
Many people do simply go no contact with these family members (usually after a long period of denial and actual or perceived helplessness).
I think your boyfriend is dealing with it in this manner for two reasons:
1. The realization that you can't change the behavior of others, only your own behavior. So, by refusing to engage, he is refusing to get angry himself. He can stay calm and serene, he can't force his father to be that way; and
2. It seems he is required to be in contact with them for financial reasons, no? Some of this is probably self-preservation -- he needs their financial support and his job so he can't just go no contact or do anything that would risk him being disowned or kicked out of the house. This ties into #1, because generally when someone is behaving in a manner you dislike, you can request that they stop and tell them you'll leave if they do not. Then, if they don't stop, you leave. They know (and he knows) that he could not financially follow through with a threat to leave, so he really has limited options here.
I would suggest he become more financially independent and get to a point where he could go no contact with them. That is, of course, if he wants to do that.
You are, of course, in control of your own body and mind and can remove yourself from these situations or refuse to see/talk with them if it upsets you. Whether that is something your relationship can sustain is another issue.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:19 AM on May 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
/r/raisedbynarcissists
/r/relationships
Many people do simply go no contact with these family members (usually after a long period of denial and actual or perceived helplessness).
I think your boyfriend is dealing with it in this manner for two reasons:
1. The realization that you can't change the behavior of others, only your own behavior. So, by refusing to engage, he is refusing to get angry himself. He can stay calm and serene, he can't force his father to be that way; and
2. It seems he is required to be in contact with them for financial reasons, no? Some of this is probably self-preservation -- he needs their financial support and his job so he can't just go no contact or do anything that would risk him being disowned or kicked out of the house. This ties into #1, because generally when someone is behaving in a manner you dislike, you can request that they stop and tell them you'll leave if they do not. Then, if they don't stop, you leave. They know (and he knows) that he could not financially follow through with a threat to leave, so he really has limited options here.
I would suggest he become more financially independent and get to a point where he could go no contact with them. That is, of course, if he wants to do that.
You are, of course, in control of your own body and mind and can remove yourself from these situations or refuse to see/talk with them if it upsets you. Whether that is something your relationship can sustain is another issue.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:19 AM on May 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I am in your shoes, except it's his mother, not the father, and she's not quite as bad, but still awful. And I still don't understand it, even after years, and it still makes me uncomfortable, because, like yours, my family is supporting and loving and if anyone gets snippy, we call the other on it immediately, and it stops, with an apology.
So, you are completely okay with feeling as you do. I also don't understand how anyone in his family tolerates the behavior, but what I am starting to think is after years and years of living with it, and having it escalate horribly if you bring it up, they have developed coping methods. The rest of the family turns away and is quiet, and doesn't engage. They ignore it, as your boyfriend does. It wears away at their self esteem, and it isn't healthy, but it's how they deal with it, because aside from cutting her off, it's their only option. She isn't going to change.
I do want to warn you - you might also eventually become the target of the father, after time goes by. Talk to your boyfriend now about what he would do if this happens. Set the boundaries now.
And really, I am sorry to say this, but the only way I can deal with his mother is the fact that we live across the country, and I see her once or twice a year. I can handle 3 or 4 days together, tops, and then I am on a plane home. So, you might want to consider moving, far away, or putting more limits on when you see his family.
posted by umwhat at 9:22 AM on May 21, 2014 [6 favorites]
So, you are completely okay with feeling as you do. I also don't understand how anyone in his family tolerates the behavior, but what I am starting to think is after years and years of living with it, and having it escalate horribly if you bring it up, they have developed coping methods. The rest of the family turns away and is quiet, and doesn't engage. They ignore it, as your boyfriend does. It wears away at their self esteem, and it isn't healthy, but it's how they deal with it, because aside from cutting her off, it's their only option. She isn't going to change.
I do want to warn you - you might also eventually become the target of the father, after time goes by. Talk to your boyfriend now about what he would do if this happens. Set the boundaries now.
And really, I am sorry to say this, but the only way I can deal with his mother is the fact that we live across the country, and I see her once or twice a year. I can handle 3 or 4 days together, tops, and then I am on a plane home. So, you might want to consider moving, far away, or putting more limits on when you see his family.
posted by umwhat at 9:22 AM on May 21, 2014 [6 favorites]
You have had less than four years to gain an understanding of the complexities and nuances of this situation; your boyfriend has had twenty-odd years. This is what he believes to be the best way to handle his father.
FAMOUS MOTHER is a lovely human being and someone I love deeply, since she's my mom and all, but she's also a little difficult to deal with sometimes, and once she crosses over into full-blown explosion territory, there isn't much point in pushing back. She can't be reasoned with and basically doesn't even seem to be having the same conversation as whomever she's talking to.
And that sucks, but it isn't going to change. I've learned that. I can honestly say that I have tried just about every approach and she is completely set in her ways. So I just kind of smile and nod and let the storm pass, even when she's being especially hurtful, even when she crosses lines. There just isn't another way to handle it.
It sounds like that's where your boyfriend is at; at this point he's just desensitized to it. He remains close with his family out of financial necessity and probably because, no matter what, they're still his family. They're drastically different from yours (and from mine - mine kept the hostilities covert more often than not) but they're his family.
He's in therapy, he's handling it. The situation isn't going to change so he's doing the best he can.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 9:23 AM on May 21, 2014 [8 favorites]
FAMOUS MOTHER is a lovely human being and someone I love deeply, since she's my mom and all, but she's also a little difficult to deal with sometimes, and once she crosses over into full-blown explosion territory, there isn't much point in pushing back. She can't be reasoned with and basically doesn't even seem to be having the same conversation as whomever she's talking to.
And that sucks, but it isn't going to change. I've learned that. I can honestly say that I have tried just about every approach and she is completely set in her ways. So I just kind of smile and nod and let the storm pass, even when she's being especially hurtful, even when she crosses lines. There just isn't another way to handle it.
It sounds like that's where your boyfriend is at; at this point he's just desensitized to it. He remains close with his family out of financial necessity and probably because, no matter what, they're still his family. They're drastically different from yours (and from mine - mine kept the hostilities covert more often than not) but they're his family.
He's in therapy, he's handling it. The situation isn't going to change so he's doing the best he can.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 9:23 AM on May 21, 2014 [8 favorites]
Best answer: A lifetime of dealing with such people leaves you with a few things, including but not limited to a bunch of neuroses, and some tried-and-true strategies for dealing with family members specific brands of shitty behavior.
One big thing is that you can't call out every single transgression, and you have to let a lot of shitty stuff slide just to keep conflict from escalating because in such dynamics, rather than resolving differences, conflict just breeds more conflict and everyone is worse off than where they started.
I have made people straight-up aghast by the way I talk to certain family members. I have also made people aghast by describing the sort of behavior I grudgingly tolerate as well. Sometimes, with certain people, there's no light at the end of the tunnel. You deal with them the best way you can -- including going no-contact if that's possible -- until they die and that's the sad truth of it.
He says he trained himself not to feel anything when his father starts ranting and therefor he doesn’t need to call him on it or state his boundaries. I find this unbelievable (in both senses of the word, but mostly that I really don’t believe it).
I had to learn to do the same thing growing up. You can scream into my face until you're hoarse and I won't flinch or have any meaningful emotional reaction save for annoyance. Sometimes waiting out the screaming is the only way to make it go away when you're dealing with a certain kind of person.
posted by griphus at 9:25 AM on May 21, 2014 [9 favorites]
One big thing is that you can't call out every single transgression, and you have to let a lot of shitty stuff slide just to keep conflict from escalating because in such dynamics, rather than resolving differences, conflict just breeds more conflict and everyone is worse off than where they started.
I have made people straight-up aghast by the way I talk to certain family members. I have also made people aghast by describing the sort of behavior I grudgingly tolerate as well. Sometimes, with certain people, there's no light at the end of the tunnel. You deal with them the best way you can -- including going no-contact if that's possible -- until they die and that's the sad truth of it.
He says he trained himself not to feel anything when his father starts ranting and therefor he doesn’t need to call him on it or state his boundaries. I find this unbelievable (in both senses of the word, but mostly that I really don’t believe it).
I had to learn to do the same thing growing up. You can scream into my face until you're hoarse and I won't flinch or have any meaningful emotional reaction save for annoyance. Sometimes waiting out the screaming is the only way to make it go away when you're dealing with a certain kind of person.
posted by griphus at 9:25 AM on May 21, 2014 [9 favorites]
You have agency here. You can choose not to be around his family. He also has agency here; he can choose to tolerate, push back, break contact, ignore, etc his father's behaviour. What you can't do is regulate your boyfriend's choices or his father's behaviour.
So basically, the only way this is an of your business is if you and your boyfriend are seriously considering having children.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:27 AM on May 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
So basically, the only way this is an of your business is if you and your boyfriend are seriously considering having children.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:27 AM on May 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
I come from a seriously dysfunctional family and am married to a man who is also from a seriously dysfunctional family. I don't always understand the way he deals with his, nor does he understand the way I deal with mine. We've both had pretty extensive therapy.
It might help to understand that, however your boyfriend is reacting, these are coping mechanisms built under duress. He's had a lifetime of managing dysfunction, and if you come from a happy, respectful family, you just . . . have no idea. And it might seem simple, to just say, well, cut them off. But the way that parental abuse works is that children are often forced to shoulder emotional burdens that aren't theirs. Your husband would feel considerable guilt, most likely, on top of the loss of his family. And even if your family is crappy, that is a loss.
My husband and I navigate this by protecting one another (and now our child) from our respective family's abuses as best we can. We're a team together, out to build something stronger. That's how we make it work for us.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:49 AM on May 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
It might help to understand that, however your boyfriend is reacting, these are coping mechanisms built under duress. He's had a lifetime of managing dysfunction, and if you come from a happy, respectful family, you just . . . have no idea. And it might seem simple, to just say, well, cut them off. But the way that parental abuse works is that children are often forced to shoulder emotional burdens that aren't theirs. Your husband would feel considerable guilt, most likely, on top of the loss of his family. And even if your family is crappy, that is a loss.
My husband and I navigate this by protecting one another (and now our child) from our respective family's abuses as best we can. We're a team together, out to build something stronger. That's how we make it work for us.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:49 AM on May 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
To follow onto what others are saying, you need to accept that your boyfriend is dealing with his family the way that he feels is best. Getting into family conflicts and avoiding a family that wants to have contact with you (and despite their dysfunction, who you probably care quite a bit about) are not small things, they are huge, stressful things, and it would be unfair of you to try to push your boyfriend to act in these ways if this is not how he wants to address the situation.
You need to act in the way you think is best just like your boyfriend does. If the abusive language is directed at you, you can certainly say that you think it's inappropriate and that you don't want to hear it, and leave the situation/hang up the phone or whatever. If your boyfriend notices you doing this and it actually gets a positive result, perhaps you will influence him with your example. But trying to tell him how to feel and how to act isn't going to help and will probably make him feel defensive. Practice focusing on what you can control (who you spend time with, how you speak to others, your responses to abuse) and letting go what you cannot control (the reactions and actions of others).
posted by treehorn+bunny at 9:50 AM on May 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
You need to act in the way you think is best just like your boyfriend does. If the abusive language is directed at you, you can certainly say that you think it's inappropriate and that you don't want to hear it, and leave the situation/hang up the phone or whatever. If your boyfriend notices you doing this and it actually gets a positive result, perhaps you will influence him with your example. But trying to tell him how to feel and how to act isn't going to help and will probably make him feel defensive. Practice focusing on what you can control (who you spend time with, how you speak to others, your responses to abuse) and letting go what you cannot control (the reactions and actions of others).
posted by treehorn+bunny at 9:50 AM on May 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
What is your end game with this boyfriend?
If you are heading towards marriage and children, and your boyfriend intends on working in the family business - RUN RUN RUN.
Your life and your future children's lives will be dominated by dysfunction, manipulation, verbal violence, and models of poor coping skills.
Girl, I know your parents brought you up better than that, so unless this guy is willing to completely cut the cord with his family down the road, don't you throw yourself or your future children under the bus for this guy's sake.
I disagree that your boyfriend is working on setting boundaries. Unless his end game is to get his degree and eject these people from his life entirely, being financially dependent on his abuser needs to be a deal breaker for you.
I'm sorry.
(In direct answer to your question - this kind of abuse is like a virus, and the only way to stop it is to cut off contact entirely because the patterns are entrenched and highly toxic, IMHE)
posted by jbenben at 9:55 AM on May 21, 2014 [9 favorites]
If you are heading towards marriage and children, and your boyfriend intends on working in the family business - RUN RUN RUN.
Your life and your future children's lives will be dominated by dysfunction, manipulation, verbal violence, and models of poor coping skills.
Girl, I know your parents brought you up better than that, so unless this guy is willing to completely cut the cord with his family down the road, don't you throw yourself or your future children under the bus for this guy's sake.
I disagree that your boyfriend is working on setting boundaries. Unless his end game is to get his degree and eject these people from his life entirely, being financially dependent on his abuser needs to be a deal breaker for you.
I'm sorry.
(In direct answer to your question - this kind of abuse is like a virus, and the only way to stop it is to cut off contact entirely because the patterns are entrenched and highly toxic, IMHE)
posted by jbenben at 9:55 AM on May 21, 2014 [9 favorites]
And I want to add....
With Narcissistic or Boderline Abusers, pushing back or "calling them out" doesn't work because it is more time wasted in the dance/dynamic of dysfunction.
There is no "healthy" way of dealing with groups infected by this dynamic because attention and participation feeds the drama.
Deep down there is a history of trauma for the lead abuser, and everything your BF's dad does is motivated by fear. You can spare a moment to feel compassion.
Once that compassion is noted, however, you've got to understand that unless your BF takes a STRONG stance inside of himself, he is bringing toxic dynamics he's learned into every relationship he's has, and ever will have.
I would need him to be very firm in his commitment towards self-work and ending the cycle of abuse before continuing with this fellow. He needs to be self-aware and on top of unconscious patterns for this to end well if you choose to stay together.
posted by jbenben at 10:15 AM on May 21, 2014 [11 favorites]
With Narcissistic or Boderline Abusers, pushing back or "calling them out" doesn't work because it is more time wasted in the dance/dynamic of dysfunction.
There is no "healthy" way of dealing with groups infected by this dynamic because attention and participation feeds the drama.
Deep down there is a history of trauma for the lead abuser, and everything your BF's dad does is motivated by fear. You can spare a moment to feel compassion.
Once that compassion is noted, however, you've got to understand that unless your BF takes a STRONG stance inside of himself, he is bringing toxic dynamics he's learned into every relationship he's has, and ever will have.
I would need him to be very firm in his commitment towards self-work and ending the cycle of abuse before continuing with this fellow. He needs to be self-aware and on top of unconscious patterns for this to end well if you choose to stay together.
posted by jbenben at 10:15 AM on May 21, 2014 [11 favorites]
Right. You need to work on your own boundaries here. I know you're trying to understand what's going on but it's really what you see on the surface. The dad acts like a jerk and everyone around him appeases him because it's better than fighting with him and having him pissed off at you and everyone for a week. If you don't keep your boundaries strong, you'll get pulled into that too. And so will any kids that you have together.
posted by dawkins_7 at 11:37 AM on May 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by dawkins_7 at 11:37 AM on May 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Agreeing with everyone else that pushing back in these kinds of situations only escalates the conflict. If his father isn't going to change, there's no point in engaging. It's the equivalent of ignoring a 3 year old who's having a tantrum and screaming about how much they hate you. Except in this case the 3 year old never grows up and learns better. It's jarring because adults are supposed to know better, but if you think of it this way then your boyfriend's behavior makes total sense.
The other half to this strategy is not to take what he says during these tantrums seriously. "Oh Dad's upset because we're not at the museum yet. He's taking it out on Mom and calling her stupid/slow. None of what he says has any connection to reality, he's just angry." Now this can be tricky to do in practice and his dad's words probably have some effect on your BF, but I would guess that some version of this is what is going on in your BF's mind.
I just want to add that I'm not like, advocating this as the healthiest coping strategy, but hopefully this gives some insight into what your boyfriend might be doing/thinking.
posted by matildatakesovertheworld at 12:22 PM on May 21, 2014
The other half to this strategy is not to take what he says during these tantrums seriously. "Oh Dad's upset because we're not at the museum yet. He's taking it out on Mom and calling her stupid/slow. None of what he says has any connection to reality, he's just angry." Now this can be tricky to do in practice and his dad's words probably have some effect on your BF, but I would guess that some version of this is what is going on in your BF's mind.
I just want to add that I'm not like, advocating this as the healthiest coping strategy, but hopefully this gives some insight into what your boyfriend might be doing/thinking.
posted by matildatakesovertheworld at 12:22 PM on May 21, 2014
Even if your parents are shitty, they're still your parents, and it's not easy for a lot of people to just flip the bird and walk away. Your boyfriend is in a highly dependent situation.
From your description, it seems pretty clear that he won't actually have much chance of happiness without distance between him and Bad Dad, but that's a huge and scary decision he may not be able to make yet.
There isn't much to understand, really, if you are wondering "Why is Bad Dad that way/why does Boyfriend put up with it?" Bad Dad likely has a sad history, or mental issues, or whatever and has chosen to be abusive instead of getting help. His family has been worn down by him for years and quite frankly, at least a few of them are probably just waiting for him to die. (though the mean ones always hold on forever in my experience). There is no way to change him, and short of leaving, no way to deal with him. And they're used to him.
Abuse is insidious like that, in that it changes your idea of "normal" so much that you sort of forget that anything better even exists.
For yourself, I would say, don't count on this relationship unless Boyfriend has an escape plan that he's actively working on. Because staying in this situation will suck you into the dysfunction whirlpool too, no matter how well you were raised. God forbid you have kids in that scenario.
Whatever you do, do not assume you can solve this family's problems or Boyfriend's problems by being involved. You really really can't, and you will get hurt if you make that assumption.
Boyfriend may get out; I hope he does. But if he won't, then you have to have your own escape plan.
posted by emjaybee at 12:31 PM on May 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
From your description, it seems pretty clear that he won't actually have much chance of happiness without distance between him and Bad Dad, but that's a huge and scary decision he may not be able to make yet.
There isn't much to understand, really, if you are wondering "Why is Bad Dad that way/why does Boyfriend put up with it?" Bad Dad likely has a sad history, or mental issues, or whatever and has chosen to be abusive instead of getting help. His family has been worn down by him for years and quite frankly, at least a few of them are probably just waiting for him to die. (though the mean ones always hold on forever in my experience). There is no way to change him, and short of leaving, no way to deal with him. And they're used to him.
Abuse is insidious like that, in that it changes your idea of "normal" so much that you sort of forget that anything better even exists.
For yourself, I would say, don't count on this relationship unless Boyfriend has an escape plan that he's actively working on. Because staying in this situation will suck you into the dysfunction whirlpool too, no matter how well you were raised. God forbid you have kids in that scenario.
Whatever you do, do not assume you can solve this family's problems or Boyfriend's problems by being involved. You really really can't, and you will get hurt if you make that assumption.
Boyfriend may get out; I hope he does. But if he won't, then you have to have your own escape plan.
posted by emjaybee at 12:31 PM on May 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
Maybe it would help to work on your relationships with your BF's brother and mother. Your BF does agree with you that yes, it is upsetting, and yes it would be nice if dad toned it down a bit, but he's also accustomed to it, and doesn't take dad's insults too seriously. Part of what upsets you is that the dad's aggressive behavior is rude to the other family members, so if you had strong relationships there, you could have a better gauge of what's over the line. i.e. you'll be able to tell when mom is bothered by his words when she doesn't care what he says, and that might help you choose your battles a bit, as well as reassure you about their family dynamic. That's not to say that I think what they've got going is healthy, but that it's something that can only change from the inside, and you're not inside it (yet).
posted by aimedwander at 12:49 PM on May 21, 2014
posted by aimedwander at 12:49 PM on May 21, 2014
I would pay attention t ohow the Dad treats you, and be intolerant of any lack of civility. I would not hide discomfort at rudeness, or pretend you think it's normal. Ask your boyfriend to talk to you and/or a therapist about what kind of relationship he wants to have with his family, and how you can help him have that. It takes time and energy to see it for what it is and to decide how to deal with it. He is the one who has to choose, because it's his relationship with his family.
If you choose to marry and/or have kids, he may replicate the behavior he's experienced, because we do what we've learned. He can decide not to.
posted by theora55 at 1:28 PM on May 21, 2014
If you choose to marry and/or have kids, he may replicate the behavior he's experienced, because we do what we've learned. He can decide not to.
posted by theora55 at 1:28 PM on May 21, 2014
You need to listen to this week's Savage Love podcast with Dan and Emily Yoffe, because a woman calls in to complain about her abusive father-in-law publicly picking on his wife and wanted to know what she could do about it. Both of them commented that it's hard to make alterations to already-existing family culture, ESPECIALLY as the "out-law" in-law who comes in and wants things to be different. Reasonably speaking, there probably isn't much of anything you can do about it without upping the drama.
Why does your boyfriend go along with it? He's used to the family culture, in that "boiled frog" sort of way. He probably doesn't even feel capable of leaving if he's that enmeshed. And yeah, most of us can't just tell our parents to fuck off and leave forever--it's a huge deal to not be close to your family in our culture, even if the family is terrifying. If you've grown up in that environment from birth, you learn coping techniques such as "keep your mouth shut at all times" and "let him have his way" and "visit every weekend or else there will be even more bitching that you're abandoning the family" because anything else only makes it worse. I'm glad he's in therapy and I hope he doesn't act like his dad later on, but this might take him a long time to figure out how to deal with it. Or leave.
I do concur with jbenben that settling down with someone whose family is like this AND he's super close to them AND working in the family business is going to mean that you cannot get away from the awful drama all the time. Even if he's a decent fellow and not like his dad, this is really worrisome and as someone else said, it's going to overflow onto you. umwhat points out that it's bearable if you very rarely see the parent, but that's not the case here. And his dad will be picking on you just as badly or worse than everyone else. If you don't want to put up with that...well, I wouldn't get engaged or married to this guy or have a kid with him or commit more than you already are. Thar be minefields in this place.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:31 PM on May 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
Why does your boyfriend go along with it? He's used to the family culture, in that "boiled frog" sort of way. He probably doesn't even feel capable of leaving if he's that enmeshed. And yeah, most of us can't just tell our parents to fuck off and leave forever--it's a huge deal to not be close to your family in our culture, even if the family is terrifying. If you've grown up in that environment from birth, you learn coping techniques such as "keep your mouth shut at all times" and "let him have his way" and "visit every weekend or else there will be even more bitching that you're abandoning the family" because anything else only makes it worse. I'm glad he's in therapy and I hope he doesn't act like his dad later on, but this might take him a long time to figure out how to deal with it. Or leave.
I do concur with jbenben that settling down with someone whose family is like this AND he's super close to them AND working in the family business is going to mean that you cannot get away from the awful drama all the time. Even if he's a decent fellow and not like his dad, this is really worrisome and as someone else said, it's going to overflow onto you. umwhat points out that it's bearable if you very rarely see the parent, but that's not the case here. And his dad will be picking on you just as badly or worse than everyone else. If you don't want to put up with that...well, I wouldn't get engaged or married to this guy or have a kid with him or commit more than you already are. Thar be minefields in this place.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:31 PM on May 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Just to clarify, I don't enmesh myself in his family matters, since it is his family and he can choose how he wants to deal with it. I'm also not looking for ways to deal with his family. I try to ignore it too and I just don't visit that often. I also do not try to push my boyfriend into doing anything specific about his family. I trust and respect his opinion on what is best. I also understand why his father acts like he does. It's sad, but it's the way it is.
Sometimes it's just hard to understand how people deal with this, I don't have personal experience with these kinds of dynamics, so the situation seems so alien to me and often so bizarre. It is also weird to see my boyfriend behaving so differently around his family than in other situations. It is the whole "I hate what they're doing/ but I still love them and want to be with them" thing that seems so paradoxical and is just hard to wrap my head around. But I feel like that is a problem I have to deal with. Also, paradoxically, they apparantly love me and think I'm a great person even though they act differently, so there's that.
Thank you for the answers, they've given me a lot to think (and probably talk to my boyfriend) about.
posted by leopard-skin pill-box hat at 3:06 PM on May 21, 2014
Sometimes it's just hard to understand how people deal with this, I don't have personal experience with these kinds of dynamics, so the situation seems so alien to me and often so bizarre. It is also weird to see my boyfriend behaving so differently around his family than in other situations. It is the whole "I hate what they're doing/ but I still love them and want to be with them" thing that seems so paradoxical and is just hard to wrap my head around. But I feel like that is a problem I have to deal with. Also, paradoxically, they apparantly love me and think I'm a great person even though they act differently, so there's that.
Thank you for the answers, they've given me a lot to think (and probably talk to my boyfriend) about.
posted by leopard-skin pill-box hat at 3:06 PM on May 21, 2014
It is the whole "I hate what they're doing/ but I still love them and want to be with them" thing that seems so paradoxical and is just hard to wrap my head around. But I feel like that is a problem I have to deal with.
Point one: children love their parents by default. Children who are beaten by their parents love them. Your boyfriend's love for his parents is not a bald calculation of their worth; it's just the way he feels about them despite their failures.
Point two: as adults, we often learn that people are much more complicated than we thought they were. I was raised in a liberal family in Manhattan and to the best of my knowledge, had never met or been exposed to a racist. When i was 24, I moved to London. My new neighbours were beyond lovely to me, saved my ass and bailed me out and took care of me when I was in an accident and had nobody else, and yet he was a terrible racist. This did not compute at all with my preconception of what a racist looks like. It still doesn't and many years later, I still struggle to reconcile people with my idea of how people should be.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:47 PM on May 21, 2014
Point one: children love their parents by default. Children who are beaten by their parents love them. Your boyfriend's love for his parents is not a bald calculation of their worth; it's just the way he feels about them despite their failures.
Point two: as adults, we often learn that people are much more complicated than we thought they were. I was raised in a liberal family in Manhattan and to the best of my knowledge, had never met or been exposed to a racist. When i was 24, I moved to London. My new neighbours were beyond lovely to me, saved my ass and bailed me out and took care of me when I was in an accident and had nobody else, and yet he was a terrible racist. This did not compute at all with my preconception of what a racist looks like. It still doesn't and many years later, I still struggle to reconcile people with my idea of how people should be.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:47 PM on May 21, 2014
(I skipped the comments.)
To me, it sounds like your BF has actively sought and found a solution that works for him. It sounds like he's not upset. And it sounds like his dad doesn't treat him as bad as others. You're not crazy or overreacting, but you come from a very different context. What's important here is that you are not comfortable in their context. The question now is, what are you going to do about that? It sounds like you think the solution might be for your BF to change how he relates to his dad, but I think the solution is going to be for you to change how you relate to your BF's family. If you set boundaries about what you are willing to be around, that would put pressure on your BF. For example, if you said "I will leave whenever name calling begins," then your BF will have to choose whether to leave with you or let you find your own way home. I suspect this will lead to you and your BF breaking up, but maybe I'm underestimating how well you and he can find creative solutions. A different option is to view his family as a foreign country and adopt a "when in Rome" attitude. Your question makes me think this is not possible. Either way, if his family is a dealbreaker for you, it's better to learn that sooner rather than later. Best of luck.
posted by salvia at 9:31 PM on May 21, 2014
To me, it sounds like your BF has actively sought and found a solution that works for him. It sounds like he's not upset. And it sounds like his dad doesn't treat him as bad as others. You're not crazy or overreacting, but you come from a very different context. What's important here is that you are not comfortable in their context. The question now is, what are you going to do about that? It sounds like you think the solution might be for your BF to change how he relates to his dad, but I think the solution is going to be for you to change how you relate to your BF's family. If you set boundaries about what you are willing to be around, that would put pressure on your BF. For example, if you said "I will leave whenever name calling begins," then your BF will have to choose whether to leave with you or let you find your own way home. I suspect this will lead to you and your BF breaking up, but maybe I'm underestimating how well you and he can find creative solutions. A different option is to view his family as a foreign country and adopt a "when in Rome" attitude. Your question makes me think this is not possible. Either way, if his family is a dealbreaker for you, it's better to learn that sooner rather than later. Best of luck.
posted by salvia at 9:31 PM on May 21, 2014
Best answer: I think you already know the answer to this particular riddle - your boyfriend loves his father and is in therapy to try keep dad in his life on terms he can live with. Sounds like he's made some progress towards this, however halting and imperfect. Focus more on how healthy this is and less on the unhealthy dynamics.
Don't try to demystify the whole family. The only person you need to understand better is sweetie....and the best way to do that is to pay attention to your own communication habits and ideas about how things should be. It might be that your confusion and sense of foreignness is a listening side problem more than a family problem.
posted by space_cookie at 6:57 AM on May 22, 2014
Don't try to demystify the whole family. The only person you need to understand better is sweetie....and the best way to do that is to pay attention to your own communication habits and ideas about how things should be. It might be that your confusion and sense of foreignness is a listening side problem more than a family problem.
posted by space_cookie at 6:57 AM on May 22, 2014
I often have to make excuses for my Dad, too. He's very negative, likes to complain a lot, and will call people out for things he doesn't like. My friends back in high school were kinda scared of him for that. My sister and I talk about it and sort of laugh. He's just a weird guy with a weird sense of humor people don't get; it's like he's been preparing to be a cranky old man since his 30s and never looked back. He seems proud of it, thinks it's funny. Thing is, he also has a lot of really great qualities--he's incredibly kind and caring and generous and he'll bend over backwards to help someone in need. People that don't know him like we do wouldn't necessarily see it, but that's the guy he is even if he comes off to someone new as a crank because of his persona.
In short what I'm saying is I think it's possible to have a perfectly healthy family that includes a negative impatient jerk, and that negativity and jerkiness may not be the whole story there. Also in a lot of families that seem more pleasant on the surface, there's a lot of shit simmering under the surface coded in passive-aggression and secrets.
Family can be great but shit like this is why we move out.
posted by Hoopo at 10:49 AM on May 22, 2014
In short what I'm saying is I think it's possible to have a perfectly healthy family that includes a negative impatient jerk, and that negativity and jerkiness may not be the whole story there. Also in a lot of families that seem more pleasant on the surface, there's a lot of shit simmering under the surface coded in passive-aggression and secrets.
Family can be great but shit like this is why we move out.
posted by Hoopo at 10:49 AM on May 22, 2014
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posted by jon1270 at 9:14 AM on May 21, 2014 [16 favorites]