Where should I go to college?

October 25, 2005 4:22 PM

Where should I go to college? (Electrical/Computer Engineering and Mathematics)

I'm a Virginia resident. It would seem then, the obvious choice would be Virginia Tech, which I'd agree with completely, but I'm fairly certain I can't get in. Why? Well, I'll let the numbers speak for themselves:

GPA: 2.6 (at the end of my junior year)
SAT Verbal ("Critical Reading"): 740
SAT Math: 620
SAT Writing: 650
SAT Total: 2010

Senior year schedule:
BC Calculus
Modern World History
International Baccalaureate Standard Level Math
Journalism
College Preporatory English
Technical Drawing (think... AutoCAD and SolidWorks)

Extra Curriculars:

FIRST Robotics Team - Tenth grade to present. Currently president of team, programmer all three years, driver last year. (Team was founded my Sophomore year: have been extremely active in it each year)

Stage Crew - Eighth grade to present, club has no real organization, but I've been a serious participant all of high school. I have done a great deal of paid and volunteer work through this.

Work Experience:
Stage Crew (see above)

Aurora Flight Sciences - Intern, wrote software for UAV groundstations (on the GoldenEye project). Invited back next summer, boss (MIT alum) has offered to write letters of reccomendation.

I attend the very small and highly regarded (public) George Mason High School which has (we are oft-reminded) "Placed in the top 35 of Newsweek’s National Challenge Index every year since 2000!"

Other (possibly) relevant things:
I have dual American/Belgian citizenship. I speak Flemish (Belgian dutch) more or less fluently, though I have never taken any formal instruction in Dutch.

I have been diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder (Though these days, who hasn't?). I am currently off medication, though I was on and off it throughout highschool.

As far as my preferences in regards to colleges go:
I'd like to be at least a four hour drive from home (NoVa, inside DC beltway). I grew up in a rural area (Kent Island, MD) and have been in the City of Falls Church since seventh grade. In a college I'd like a very urban area if possible, though it's not a deal-breaking requirement. As long as there is something other than the institution in the general area.

Institution's Considered:
West Virginia University
University of New Mexico
Virginia Commonwealth University

posted by phrontist to education (33 comments total)

Oh, and my long term plan very likely includes transferring after a freshman year.
posted by phrontist at 4:25 PM on October 25, 2005

UVA! Great engineering school, 4 hours from DC, and cheap.
posted by callmejay at 4:27 PM on October 25, 2005

(and maybe it's easier to transfer into a state school from a community college.)
posted by callmejay at 4:28 PM on October 25, 2005

If you're in northern Virginia, go to NOVA for a year or two and get good grades. Then transfer to UVA or Virginia Tech.

Check out the top link on FPP'd site for more information.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 4:31 PM on October 25, 2005

By the way, I got in to Virginia Tech with only a slightly higher GPA and similar credentials back in 1995/6. I don't think it's a pipe dream, just maybe a reach.

If you really don't want to go to community college, how about starting at George Mason and transferring? Or James Madison? You should definitely at least start at a state school if you're planning to transfer. No need to take out loans somewhere where you're not planning to get a diploma.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 4:33 PM on October 25, 2005

callmejay: I was under the impressive UVA engineering had become quite competitive, even for in state students.

croutonsupafreak: From all I've heard Virginia Tech has become drastically harder to get into in the past 10 years, mostly during the last 5. I've spoken to a Virginia Tech representative who told me flat out that the chances of getting in with a sub 3.0 GPA approaches 0. A quick glance at the scattergram of students accepted/rejected shows that over the past few years 187 students have applied to Tech from my school and not a single one was accepted with a >3 GPA.
posted by phrontist at 4:43 PM on October 25, 2005

University of Kentucky has been considered as well.

Is it really that hard to transfer from, say, WVU or UK to Virginia tech, as compared to a community college? It seems that if I did really stellar at School X as oppose to community college, and I wanted to apply to Uber Prestigious School Y, I would have more options with a large state school then a community college. I'm aware that NOVA has an excellent reputation, and don't harbor any irrational prejudice towards it, but I'd prefer to get out of the house. That is an important quality of life concern.
posted by phrontist at 4:50 PM on October 25, 2005

You can get into my undergrad university, Illinois Institute of Technology, with those stats and may even get some sort of scholarship/financial aid (IIT is big on financial aid).

Big advantages are it's in a city, right next to the White Sox stadium, and has good Electrical Engineering and Applied Math.
I don't know if it would be your first choice, but I'd at least consider it.

Email's in my profile if you've got any questions specific to the school. Aside from being an alumni, I'm not affiliated in any way.

Final tip, life as an engineer revolves around your knowledge of Calculus. Study HARD in this class and know the material. This is definitely one thing I would change about my senior year of high school.
posted by onalark at 4:52 PM on October 25, 2005

For computer engineering and math, I would consider adding the University of Waterloo to your list. You won't get in with the grades you list [they want mid-80s at the very least], but it's one to consider attempting to transfer to if you can pull yourself up after your first year.
posted by duck at 4:53 PM on October 25, 2005

onalark: Thank you very much, I had never heard of/considered IIT (I was hoping for just this kind of answer). Your advice regarding calculus has been echoed by a large number of sources I respect.
posted by phrontist at 4:55 PM on October 25, 2005

I wouldn't have believed it myself in high school, so you're ahead of me. Four years of a computer engineering undergrad and graduate school in applied mathematics have converted me to a loyal worshipper of the Calculus.
posted by onalark at 5:01 PM on October 25, 2005

Here's another vote for the community college recommendation.

In my own experience (so far, 3 years at a big, respected state university), I don't think I gained much from my first year or two here here that I couldn't have gotten at a community college. I also know lots of people who transfered here from CCs, and have great respect for their general level of organization and with-it-ness.

Classes at a CC may well be easier than at a 4-year school, and that will come in handy if learning to live on your own takes some getting used to, as it did for me. How would you feel about graduating from Tech with a GPA similar to your high school one? If you're hoping for something higher, and if your last year or so of high school hasn't been exceptionally strong academically, easier classes may also give you a chance to figure out how to do school better.

You might talk to your guidance counselor about how easy or difficult it would be to transfer from a CC to wherever it is that your long-term plan involves transferring. If you plan on going to a Virginia 4-year school, it is definitely desirable to start at a CC rather than at some other 4-year. There are rules at Tech guaranteeing transfer admission to those with good transcripts from CCs. You wouldn't have a guarantee with a 3.0 from another school; your counselor should have a better feel for how different your chances would really be.

As for getting out of the house, I can definitely sympathize. But is attending a nearby school synonymous with living at home? If you pay rent with your own money, borrowed or otherwise, why can't you just move across town?
posted by gorillawarfare at 5:02 PM on October 25, 2005

I second the idea that your undergrad institution's reputation is not nearly as important as you might think at this point. You're much better off, especially if your plans include grad school, to find a good Tier II engineering-type school and work your ass off to differentiate yourself from the pack. Do undergrad research ASAP (even freshman year) - to get in with profs for recommendations, etc., make sure classes come first, and don't fall into the "grades don't reflect what I really learn" trap. The real world is unfortunately based on a lot of first impressions, and that includes your transcript. A stellar candidate from a smaller school has much better options than Yet Another Mediocre Snob from a huge, impersonal top-tier undergrad school.
posted by kcm at 5:21 PM on October 25, 2005

I don't know if this is still the case, but it used to be that attendance at certain California community colleges gives you a very excellent chance to transfer into a UC. Might be harder if engineering is your intended major since that's so popular at the UCs; maybe math would be easier to transfer into. More info here. A few of the California community colleges with good reputations are Cabrillo (feeder for UC Santa Cruz) Santa Monica (feeder for UCLA) and Diablo (feeder for Berkeley).
posted by footnote at 5:27 PM on October 25, 2005

I'm hesitant to go to a community college for two reasons:

1) My understanding is that you need to spend two years there before you are garunteed admission to Tech and othe state schools.

2) If I really get my act together it seems as though being at a large state school and doing well could open the possibility of transfer to a much better school than doing the same at a community college.
posted by phrontist at 5:38 PM on October 25, 2005

given your background, I have to reiterate that you will get lost in the crowd at a large state school. to me, you have much better chances at a smaller school, if not a CC. the extra attention and lack of indifference by the research-oriented profs (that are typical at such large state schools) will benefit you.
posted by kcm at 5:42 PM on October 25, 2005

kcm: I really can't stand that "not lost in the pack" feeling. I really like being left to my own devices, and find I learn best that way. If there is anything I'm looking foward to in college, it would be the elimination of well-meaning persons breathing down my neck.
posted by phrontist at 5:46 PM on October 25, 2005

U of Maryland, College Park has a good engineering school, too, but they don't meet your 4 hours away criterion.
posted by callmejay at 5:53 PM on October 25, 2005

My friend went to University of New Mexico, and from what she has said it is laughable to call it an urban school. She wouldn't recommend it unless they are from in-state and get a full ride.

Also, unless you plan on doing so well that you get uber amounts of financial aid, there is no reason to go to Uber Prestigious School Y instead of Quite Good State School X. My mom has hired engineers from Duke and engineers from George Mason - the only difference in them was their debt load. Engineering (IMHO) is just not a field where a ultra-fancy name on a diploma makes a big difference - distinguish yourself with your grades, your research, and your internships.
posted by gatorae at 6:09 PM on October 25, 2005

gatorae: I didn't mean to indicate it was urban (nor are any of the school's I've listed so far). But I've visited New Mexico and liked it...

Again, urban would be nice, but more importantly I'd prefer something outside of the college and the community that has sprung up to cater to college students. Something other than a college town...

I also cycle, for which I found New Mexico great.

Actually, I forgot to mention I'm a competitive (but as of yet unrated) foil fencer.
posted by phrontist at 6:13 PM on October 25, 2005

oh, hell, come to Pittsburgh then. I think that's the first and last time I'll ever tell anyone that. it's roughly 4 hours from DC, fairly urban .. to some people .. but yet has tons of outdoors and nature 15 minutes out of the city, it's cheap, there's 40 billion universities yet it's not a "college town", etc. Pitt can't be THAT hard to get into. you'll certainly be lost in the crowd there if you want.
posted by kcm at 6:23 PM on October 25, 2005

I'm not sure if this applies to Tech, but some schools have "back doors." Sometimes it's a General Studies-type program that you can be accepted into and then after a year transfer out of. Sometimes after you're rejected they'll mention it, but sometimes before, so you can apply directly to that program. I know some state schools in Maine and New Hampshire had such programs.
posted by jdl at 6:25 PM on October 25, 2005

I'll offer my services as Professional Pessimist.

Yes, you can expect to have a very hard time getting into Tech or UVa. *ESPECIALLY* coming from Fairfax, where approximately a billion Hokies and Wahoos come from.

Community college: Is that really useful for a budding engineer? I guess you can get some of the intro math and science out of the way, but I have to think that about any tool school worth its salt is going to put you through almost all of the 4-year program anyway, at least the engineering components.

Frankly, I would worry very seriously about getting an engineering degree, especially a EE, with a 620 on the math SAT, but I don't know you from Adam's off ox. Only secondhand experience, but e-schools are brutal, crushing places that absolutely Will. Not. Stop. if you're not getting it, and they're geared to be terrifyingly difficult to people who aced the math SAT with ease.

Doesn't mean don't do it, or don't apply, or anything like that, especially if actual engineers are being encouraging. But what it does mean is that, if you want my advice that's worth nothing at all, you should think seriously about going to a school that's not just an engineering school so that if you find that it's not for you (as many do), it will be a simple matter of an internal transfer to your university's college of arts and sciences or whatever. Also, then there will be more hot babes around, not that engineering girls aren't hot too.

I don't know what school that means; look around at big state u's with tool schools, and be sure to look at private schools too -- they can often work out cheaper, all told, than even in-state rates at a state school, and often *much* cheaper than out of state rates at a state school.

I seriously doubt that WVU is any more "urban" than Charlottesville or Blacksburg.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:24 PM on October 25, 2005

I think you need to examine why you don't have the grades that reflect your ability to actually do the work. If it's becasue you lacked focus or screwed around when you were younger then that's one thing. If it's because you have a hard time learning in a classroom setting and taking tests that is another and your choice of college should reflect that. If you continue to work and intern all through college you'll end up employed afterwards no matter where you go.
posted by fshgrl at 7:38 PM on October 25, 2005

I don't know anything about engineering and good engineering schools, but in line with what kcm was saying, what about Temple? They have an engineering school. I have two friends that go there and like it a lot, and I get the impression it is a lot easier to get into that Tech, UVA or UMD. And it's definitely an urban area.

In terms of schools to transfer to later on, I have a friend who is an EE major at RIT and she really loves it there. Also, I second IIT, simply because it is incredibly cool looking -- the El goes through their student center. (See here.)
posted by puffin at 7:44 PM on October 25, 2005

I'm waffling on whether to agree with Rou_Xenophobe about the appropriateness of the desired degree.

On the one hand, ECE is one of the hardest majors (Aerospace and Chemical are probably the only ones that can claim to be harder) and the schools take perverse glee in the carnage caused by the first two years of coursework.

On the other hand, I got mine as a "non-traditional student" in my late 20s, which meant I'd grown up, and I tore a blue streak through the courseload simply by showing up, sitting up front, paying attention and engaging the professor. All very uncool things for the average college-age student. But doing so made it incredibly easy to ace courses. I should add that I'm a math whiz (forever frustrated that I didn't get a perfect 800 math SAT).

All that to say that, I guess, if you're going to try ECE without serious math chops, then you damn well better go to class, sit up front and pay attention. It's my number one advice to college students -- never EVER miss class. That's it.

P.S. I have an AE degree and an ECE degree from a very well known engineering school.
posted by intermod at 8:06 PM on October 25, 2005

For your college interview: you need to come up with an angle to explain the severe disparity between your SAT scores and your grades. Either the bad grades were freshman year and you've been constantly improving; or you insisted on taking advanced track classes even though you knew you could ace the basic ones; or *something*. Anything the interviewer can hang his hat on when reporting back to the admissions committee.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:14 PM on October 25, 2005

ikkyu2: I'll give that some thought, but frankly, I'd give a lot to know the answers to those questions.

In regards to mathematics: surely good grades in BC caclulus is a better metric than the SAT math section!
posted by phrontist at 8:33 PM on October 25, 2005

In regards to mathematics: surely good grades in BC caclulus is a better metric than the SAT math section!

Maybe, but that's not what Admissions Committees look at. Remember, everyone took the SAT, but only a handful of people were in your Calculus class.
posted by Kwantsar at 8:43 PM on October 25, 2005

Regarding the IB math part of this year's schedule: going for the whole IB diploma could be enough to knock a year or more off of college. With my IB credits and diploma, I entered college with 52 of the required 180 credits to graduate already done - meaning I had WAY more time to take a language, work, intern abroad, et cetera.

If there's a way for you to pony up and do the whole IB diploma, do it - a year's investment now for relatively little money will let you save lots of money later, and the classes and tests really are different from AP.

On a less technical note, I also had crap grades and high SAT scores (almost exactly yours, actually, though before the writing bit was added), and was denied to every school I applied to, but University of California X's denial came first, so I called them, asked them why I was denied (and was told, quite specifically, as it turned out to be just one thing!), asked about the appeal process, wrote a kick-ass appeal letter with help from my IB coordinator, and got in. I was denied March 6 and accepted March 18.

I did receive offers from UC Y and UC Z to go to community college for a year and then get a guaranteed transfer, but I didn't know if there would be classes I could take at community college because I'd done so many AP/IB courses. Talk to your local CCs and see what they say - maybe it wouldn't take you two years to transfer.

Also - can you take community college classes now, as a high school student, and receive college credit? I did - here's the link to my local CC's program for K-12 students. Put yourself in a college class and see how your perception and involvement changes when you and everyone else is paying to be there, there's no drama about dress codes or cliques, and you're only in class two nights a week.

To summarize:

-Practice and do well on your SAT math, if you've got time to take it again
-IB diploma if possible
-Talk to your local community college about opportunities for class enrollment next term

Lastly, what about universities in Belgium? No idea about that, but I imagine that they'd recognize the IB stuff more than we do here, and the closing date for their applications might be later - giving you more time to improve. They might want recommendation letters and might also be more forgiving of lower grades if they can see a unique student (I'm guessing there are few Belgian high school robot clubs, but that's total speculation). As an American, you're going to bring in a flavor that a Belgian admissions committee might love.

Best of luck.
posted by mdonley at 2:27 AM on October 26, 2005

Whatever you do, don't go to the University of Missouri at Rolla.
posted by u2604ab at 10:45 AM on October 26, 2005

Tri-State University.
posted by hamster at 3:51 PM on October 26, 2005

ikkyu2: I'll give that some thought, but frankly, I'd give a lot to know the answers to those questions.

In regards to mathematics: surely good grades in BC caclulus is a better metric than the SAT math section!

You are clearly the right age to be applying to college; you have asked us a question and now are blithely sailing along, telling us things.

I suggest: Go back and read what we all wrote, with an eye to understanding it. For instance: I did not say you needed to find an answer to the questions I mentioned. I said you needed to find an angle to explain it which could be plausible.

You probably have some response to that which I have just suggested.

Curb it. :)
posted by ikkyu2 at 10:52 PM on October 27, 2005