Plumbing issue in rented PA home. Landlord wants us to share in payment?
April 13, 2014 3:00 PM Subscribe
My landlord is requesting that my roommates and I help with the cost of a plumbing repair. I think he's in his rights to do this, but I just want to see what the green thinks.
I rent a single-family home in Pittsburgh; somewhat old, but I don't know the exact age. When I first moved in, the tub was clogging. Landlord had a plumber come to fix it, plumber said it was due to hair and landlord bought us a trap to place over the drain. He said if it got clogged again, the plumbing payment was on us. This was in October or November.
Around the beginning of the year, it started clogging again--I'll admit my roommates and I haven't been as conscientious as we should have been, in using and cleaning out the hair trap. (The house has had other pipe problems, such as the sink beside the washer in the basement clogging up.)
Just this morning, we learned that there's a problem with the plumbing. Every time we flush the toilet, water/sewage begins to seep in the basement. A plumber said that the main pipe where everything flows to the sewage system is blocked. He asked us not to shower or use the bathroom until he can snake through the pipe.
My landlord said he would like my roommates and me to contribute to the cost of the repairs. Some of my friends say this is not kosher, but I think it may be, if our clogged bathtub has contributed to the problem. I don't know this for certain, however, since my landlord and plumber only flushed the toilet a few times to see if it was the culprit; they didn't run the bathtub.
Also, my lease agreement (it was a generic template my landlord got from the Internet) says the following:
"RESIDENT shall pay for the cleaning out of any plumbing fixture that may need to be cleared of stoppage and for the expense or damage caused by stopping of waste pipes or overflow from bathtubs, wash basins, or sinks."
But PA tenant law states that landlords are responsible for plumbing repairs. Which takes precedence in this case--the lease or the law?
I rent a single-family home in Pittsburgh; somewhat old, but I don't know the exact age. When I first moved in, the tub was clogging. Landlord had a plumber come to fix it, plumber said it was due to hair and landlord bought us a trap to place over the drain. He said if it got clogged again, the plumbing payment was on us. This was in October or November.
Around the beginning of the year, it started clogging again--I'll admit my roommates and I haven't been as conscientious as we should have been, in using and cleaning out the hair trap. (The house has had other pipe problems, such as the sink beside the washer in the basement clogging up.)
Just this morning, we learned that there's a problem with the plumbing. Every time we flush the toilet, water/sewage begins to seep in the basement. A plumber said that the main pipe where everything flows to the sewage system is blocked. He asked us not to shower or use the bathroom until he can snake through the pipe.
My landlord said he would like my roommates and me to contribute to the cost of the repairs. Some of my friends say this is not kosher, but I think it may be, if our clogged bathtub has contributed to the problem. I don't know this for certain, however, since my landlord and plumber only flushed the toilet a few times to see if it was the culprit; they didn't run the bathtub.
Also, my lease agreement (it was a generic template my landlord got from the Internet) says the following:
"RESIDENT shall pay for the cleaning out of any plumbing fixture that may need to be cleared of stoppage and for the expense or damage caused by stopping of waste pipes or overflow from bathtubs, wash basins, or sinks."
But PA tenant law states that landlords are responsible for plumbing repairs. Which takes precedence in this case--the lease or the law?
IANAL, but it is your landlord's responsibility to maintain the apartment, including maintenance due to reasonable wear and tear, and nothing in your question makes me think that you have been abusing the plumbing. I've lived in many old buildings with old pipes, and hair-trap or no, there is no way a couple months of showering are going to cause sewage overflows in a previously-well-functioning plumbing system.
At the very least, the burden is on your landlord to prove his (IMHO very implausible) theory of what happened here.
And, while you should talk to a lawyer (is there a tenants-rights hotline in your area?), usually the purpose of laws like the one you cite is specifically to prevent unscrupulous landlords from writing leases with the clauses that those laws prohibit. Frankly, the fact that this unusual clause is even in the lease makes me think that the landlord knew from the get-go that he has a neglected plumbing system which is falling apart, and thought he might be able to sucker you into paying for it.
posted by enn at 3:11 PM on April 13, 2014 [14 favorites]
At the very least, the burden is on your landlord to prove his (IMHO very implausible) theory of what happened here.
And, while you should talk to a lawyer (is there a tenants-rights hotline in your area?), usually the purpose of laws like the one you cite is specifically to prevent unscrupulous landlords from writing leases with the clauses that those laws prohibit. Frankly, the fact that this unusual clause is even in the lease makes me think that the landlord knew from the get-go that he has a neglected plumbing system which is falling apart, and thought he might be able to sucker you into paying for it.
posted by enn at 3:11 PM on April 13, 2014 [14 favorites]
This tenants' rights info sheet states "Your landlord must make repairs needed to keep your home safe, sanitary and in livable condition...For example, your landlord would have to correct a badly leaking roof, a broken furnace, plumbing that doesn’t work..."
Although it later says, "the landlord is not required to repair damages caused by the tenant. The tenant must correct or pay for these," I don't think your landlord would have a leg to stand on if he tried to say you and your roommates had damaged the plumbing by not cleaning hair out of the drain regularly enough. This is a more serious problem and he's going to have to pay for it.
It doesn't matter what the lease says; he can't have clauses in the lease that contravene your state's tenant/landlord laws.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 3:17 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Although it later says, "the landlord is not required to repair damages caused by the tenant. The tenant must correct or pay for these," I don't think your landlord would have a leg to stand on if he tried to say you and your roommates had damaged the plumbing by not cleaning hair out of the drain regularly enough. This is a more serious problem and he's going to have to pay for it.
It doesn't matter what the lease says; he can't have clauses in the lease that contravene your state's tenant/landlord laws.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 3:17 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Frankly, the fact that this unusual clause is even in the lease makes me think that the landlord knew from the get-go that he has a neglected plumbing system which is falling apart, and thought he might be able to sucker you into paying for it.
For real! And yeah, law trumps contract.
posted by amro at 3:17 PM on April 13, 2014 [5 favorites]
For real! And yeah, law trumps contract.
posted by amro at 3:17 PM on April 13, 2014 [5 favorites]
DO NOT PAY.
Hon, it takes years and years to clog up the main pipe out to the street. This is an ongoing issue I GUARANTEE your landlord knows about prior to your tenancy.
This is why the law says he needs to pay plumbing.
Likely they'll be using a hydrojet to blow out the main pipe, not a snake. Snake is cheaper, just not effective.
If the pipes are this old, be prepared that the pipe could break during cleaning. That repair is big big $$.
Be wary. Do not accept responsibility for this wear and tear/regular maintenance type repair in any way shape or form. Got it?
posted by jbenben at 3:22 PM on April 13, 2014 [12 favorites]
Hon, it takes years and years to clog up the main pipe out to the street. This is an ongoing issue I GUARANTEE your landlord knows about prior to your tenancy.
This is why the law says he needs to pay plumbing.
Likely they'll be using a hydrojet to blow out the main pipe, not a snake. Snake is cheaper, just not effective.
If the pipes are this old, be prepared that the pipe could break during cleaning. That repair is big big $$.
Be wary. Do not accept responsibility for this wear and tear/regular maintenance type repair in any way shape or form. Got it?
posted by jbenben at 3:22 PM on April 13, 2014 [12 favorites]
There could be a world of trouble waiting to be discovered and you DON'T want to possibly put yourself on the hook for any portion of that.
...and just so that you're thinking right about this, understand that a hair clog will be right at the tub's drainage hole. "Your" clog would do nothing more than impede the flow of water from the tub into the drain . If there are clogs further down, it's because hair and shit have snagged on something like an old teddy bear, tree root or collapsed section of pipe.
It's good practice to dig out the tub drain gunk with something like a bent coat hanger from time to time -draw straws.
posted by bonobothegreat at 3:25 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
...and just so that you're thinking right about this, understand that a hair clog will be right at the tub's drainage hole. "Your" clog would do nothing more than impede the flow of water from the tub into the drain . If there are clogs further down, it's because hair and shit have snagged on something like an old teddy bear, tree root or collapsed section of pipe.
It's good practice to dig out the tub drain gunk with something like a bent coat hanger from time to time -draw straws.
posted by bonobothegreat at 3:25 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Some clarifying details: He hasn't had the house that long. I think he got it sometime in the middle of the year last year. My roommates and I are his first tenants, ever. I really don't think he knew about this before he bought the house. The reason he bought it was because a college student who is a close family friend of his wife's was transferring to a university here. Since she now has a license (only recently got it, because she's a Chinese student; landlord and landlady are also Chinese), she's been living in a dorm with her friends--go figure. So yes, it's possible this might have been some ridiculously elaborate scheme, but I'd like to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, because it seems like setting up such a scenario is so much more trouble than it's worth.
Either way, though, is there a link someone can give to me that says law takes precedence over contracts, in case he tries to argue that our lease says we have to pay?
posted by dean_deen at 3:34 PM on April 13, 2014
Either way, though, is there a link someone can give to me that says law takes precedence over contracts, in case he tries to argue that our lease says we have to pay?
posted by dean_deen at 3:34 PM on April 13, 2014
I have a lot of hair, and a shallow plumbing situation in my bathtub/shower combo. It's annoying, and frustrating, and results in us using a hair trap and scraping hair off all the surfaces and usually calling a drain company out 1-2 times a year to unclog the shower. This is something we just live with, because I shed like a sheepdog.
Until recently, we also had a problem with the upstairs toilet, old pipes, and an overflow situation in the basement from time to time. This problem was solved by a renovation last summer that replaced all the pipes in question.
The two things had absolutely nothing to do with one another. All that hair down the drain of the shower simply stopped the tub from draining properly. The toilet/basement problem had everything to do with the pipes being 80 years old and the gunk that had built up inside of them during that 80 year period. In fact when we first replaced those pipes, the water pressure down was so much faster that we had to snake the line from the house to the street, because it could no longer keep up.
I don't believe your basement plumbing problem is connected. I do believe that fixing it could be very, very expensive to fix permanently, and this is your landlords issue, not yours. At least find out what they are talking about in terms of cost first.
posted by instead of three wishes at 3:40 PM on April 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
Until recently, we also had a problem with the upstairs toilet, old pipes, and an overflow situation in the basement from time to time. This problem was solved by a renovation last summer that replaced all the pipes in question.
The two things had absolutely nothing to do with one another. All that hair down the drain of the shower simply stopped the tub from draining properly. The toilet/basement problem had everything to do with the pipes being 80 years old and the gunk that had built up inside of them during that 80 year period. In fact when we first replaced those pipes, the water pressure down was so much faster that we had to snake the line from the house to the street, because it could no longer keep up.
I don't believe your basement plumbing problem is connected. I do believe that fixing it could be very, very expensive to fix permanently, and this is your landlords issue, not yours. At least find out what they are talking about in terms of cost first.
posted by instead of three wishes at 3:40 PM on April 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
In my humble, unlettered opinion, clogs do not cause leaks, or seepage. Whatever is going on in the basement, it's on the landlord.
posted by SemiSalt at 3:44 PM on April 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by SemiSalt at 3:44 PM on April 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
Agree with all the above. Not your problem. Our rented house would periodically back up and the landlord would have to send the plumber out. Turns out it was roots in the line out to the street. House was 50 years old. The next house we actually owned was the same age. When that backed up we called someone and turned out to be that we had the old paper pipes and they were collapsing. That meant all new pipes. Neither of these were simply hair down the drain, but the shower was the first place to let us know something was up. Back ups can be caused by any number of things and you do not want to be on the hook for that. I also once had a landlord that bought the building I was already living in and asked all the tenants to pitch in to have all the carpeting in the common areas replaced, because you know, we all used it. We all told him where to shove that idea. He gave up trying to pitch the idea after a month.
posted by MayNicholas at 3:50 PM on April 13, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by MayNicholas at 3:50 PM on April 13, 2014 [3 favorites]
It is not only contract law that you do not understand, it is plumbing.
It does not matter if he bought the house 2 minutes ago or 20 years ago - this sort of clog takes years to develop and is his responsibility except under extreme circumstances (like, you tried to dispose of a body down the drain type extreme...)
Call your local helpline in your jurisdiction or visit your state website for the relevant rental code. I'm sure google will pull it up.
Hair down a drain won't clog a main - ever - unless the hair is attached to a racoon or similar animal.
The owner owns this house and the problem. Period.
Make sure it gets fixed ASAP because right now you have zero plumbing in your home and that is a breech of the warrant of habitability clause. DO NOT AGREE TO PAY.
If the landlord refuses to fix the plumbing immediately unless you agree to pay for the repair, report him to the county, city, and state IMMEDIATELY, send him written notice, move out, and sue him in small claims for your deposit back.
posted by jbenben at 3:51 PM on April 13, 2014 [5 favorites]
It does not matter if he bought the house 2 minutes ago or 20 years ago - this sort of clog takes years to develop and is his responsibility except under extreme circumstances (like, you tried to dispose of a body down the drain type extreme...)
Call your local helpline in your jurisdiction or visit your state website for the relevant rental code. I'm sure google will pull it up.
Hair down a drain won't clog a main - ever - unless the hair is attached to a racoon or similar animal.
The owner owns this house and the problem. Period.
Make sure it gets fixed ASAP because right now you have zero plumbing in your home and that is a breech of the warrant of habitability clause. DO NOT AGREE TO PAY.
If the landlord refuses to fix the plumbing immediately unless you agree to pay for the repair, report him to the county, city, and state IMMEDIATELY, send him written notice, move out, and sue him in small claims for your deposit back.
posted by jbenben at 3:51 PM on April 13, 2014 [5 favorites]
If he refuses to fix unless you pay, after giving legal notice to move out, you could also stay in a motel until you secure a new rental property, then successfully sue the landlord in small claims for your lodging fees. That's how serious this is.
The plumbing is out of order and sewage is backing up into your residence. He needs to fix this ASAP. Haggling about who is at fault is not a reason to delay the repair under the law.
Good luck.
(If you have renter's insurance and made a claim based on this, your insurance company would go after your landlord for reimbursement, BTW.)
posted by jbenben at 3:59 PM on April 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
The plumbing is out of order and sewage is backing up into your residence. He needs to fix this ASAP. Haggling about who is at fault is not a reason to delay the repair under the law.
Good luck.
(If you have renter's insurance and made a claim based on this, your insurance company would go after your landlord for reimbursement, BTW.)
posted by jbenben at 3:59 PM on April 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: The plumber's returning tomorrow, just to be clear. I'm moving out soon and landlord wants the problem fixed ASAP so that he can show the house to potential renters. My main concern was his proposal that we help foot the bill.
posted by dean_deen at 4:02 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by dean_deen at 4:02 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Do not give him money for the plumbing bill, no matter what he says. Legally, you don't owe it, and I fear you will have to go to considerable expense and trouble to recover it.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 4:26 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 4:26 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Anecdata: I rent in Pittsburgh. My landlord has only owned the house I live in for less than 2 years, and I'm the first tenant. I had the main drain stack back up, such that every time you flushed the toilet, sewage and water backed up into the kitchen sink(!).
My landlord not only didn't suggest I pay for the repairs, she had someone out the same day to fix the issue.
As others are saying, your landlord is on the hook for this. Do not pay a dime for this repair. Hud.gov links on Tentant's Rights, including PA's Landlord-tenant Act and Legal Aid Finder.
posted by namewithoutwords at 5:06 PM on April 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
My landlord not only didn't suggest I pay for the repairs, she had someone out the same day to fix the issue.
As others are saying, your landlord is on the hook for this. Do not pay a dime for this repair. Hud.gov links on Tentant's Rights, including PA's Landlord-tenant Act and Legal Aid Finder.
posted by namewithoutwords at 5:06 PM on April 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
Don't pay a dime. Years ago, I moved into an 1890s house that had been foreclosed and purchased by the handyman landlord several months before. Pennsylvania. I was the second tenant. The pipes were incredibly thin and old. Soon after I moved in, I made the mistake of washing my hands in the sink after working on a tiling project, and the pipes started to clog in the basement. It may or may not have been my fault.
The landlord was excellent about it and shrugged it off. He followed the law to the letter and had all the plumbing updated and replaced. He did mention that there was some sort of financial break he was getting (maybe some sort of tax writeoff since it was a business expense).
So as someone running a business, your landlord may not be taking the financial hit he is claiming.
posted by mochapickle at 5:39 PM on April 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
The landlord was excellent about it and shrugged it off. He followed the law to the letter and had all the plumbing updated and replaced. He did mention that there was some sort of financial break he was getting (maybe some sort of tax writeoff since it was a business expense).
So as someone running a business, your landlord may not be taking the financial hit he is claiming.
posted by mochapickle at 5:39 PM on April 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
I don't know if it applies in PA, but I'd assume that in most places this should be a thing the landlord fixes in twenty four hours or you can start proceedings sort of problem. The main sewer line in question is probably at least three inches around and designed to carry what you put down the toilet (which would clog your shower drain in a trice). Short of pouring fat down the sink or flushing something that really shouldn't have been flushed down the toilet it shouldn't clog.
posted by wotsac at 5:53 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by wotsac at 5:53 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Unless your lease agreement states that you are to remain hairless during your time there and you broke it by growing hair then, you should not pay a penny.
If he presses you for it, smile at him sweetly and remind him that future tenants may also have hair and he should probably replace the problem pipes.
posted by myselfasme at 6:09 PM on April 13, 2014
If he presses you for it, smile at him sweetly and remind him that future tenants may also have hair and he should probably replace the problem pipes.
posted by myselfasme at 6:09 PM on April 13, 2014
Don't pay for plumbing, and if you haven't paid your last month's rent, I would withhold and tell him to use the deposit towards rent.
posted by bq at 6:15 PM on April 13, 2014
posted by bq at 6:15 PM on April 13, 2014
My main concern was his proposal that we help foot the bill
The #1 advantage of renting is that you don't have to unexpectedly pay these sorts of bills. Your landlord should have been budgeting for just such an event, and figured that into your rent.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:47 PM on April 13, 2014 [5 favorites]
The #1 advantage of renting is that you don't have to unexpectedly pay these sorts of bills. Your landlord should have been budgeting for just such an event, and figured that into your rent.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:47 PM on April 13, 2014 [5 favorites]
some sort of financial break he was getting (maybe some sort of tax writeoff since it was a business expense).
Maintenance is generally considered a straight deductible expense. Depending on the work done, it can alternatively be a depreciated asset over a given number of years.
I would withhold
NEVER DO THIS without the advice of a lawyer. In many US jurisdictions rent withholding is the same as not paying and you can be evicted. (If you're moving out, using the deposit as last month's is a murkier matter, technically wrong but tolerated. Again, be suitably cautious here.)
OK, landlord hat on. Main drains usually do not clog up due to what's put down them, directly, but because roots grow into the sewer line. It only takes a hairline crack and soon you've got a whole squirrelly thing down there filling up most of your line capacity. This is what Roto-Rooter is for, and I suppose you could consider it a "repair" -- to me it's more a maintenance thing, and depending on how bad the problem is, to be done every year or so. A lot of local companies offer this for a range of prices because all you really need is an electric motor and a long flexible cable with a sort of claw on the end. Heck, you can even rent these yourself.
Note, it's more expensive to have an actual plumber do this as they will charge you the same hourly rate, while most of these specialty guys will do it flat rate -- around here about $100. They'll also offer you a type of guarantee in that if they have to come back in X months it's half price or some such, BUT they will cancel your discount if they encounter things that should not be down pipes like diapers, wet wipes, and so forth.
Bottom line, your landlord should try this before bringing in a plumber, and it's not even that expensive, and it's something he should be doing anyway, AND it's a write-off. Shouldn't be on you.
Find out whether in PA leases with illegal clauses are voided. It's the case where I am. I don't think that legally you can be made to be on the hook for this unless you were actually negligent. So make sure you know your rights and get some local advice if he gives you more grief on this.
posted by dhartung at 7:10 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Maintenance is generally considered a straight deductible expense. Depending on the work done, it can alternatively be a depreciated asset over a given number of years.
I would withhold
NEVER DO THIS without the advice of a lawyer. In many US jurisdictions rent withholding is the same as not paying and you can be evicted. (If you're moving out, using the deposit as last month's is a murkier matter, technically wrong but tolerated. Again, be suitably cautious here.)
OK, landlord hat on. Main drains usually do not clog up due to what's put down them, directly, but because roots grow into the sewer line. It only takes a hairline crack and soon you've got a whole squirrelly thing down there filling up most of your line capacity. This is what Roto-Rooter is for, and I suppose you could consider it a "repair" -- to me it's more a maintenance thing, and depending on how bad the problem is, to be done every year or so. A lot of local companies offer this for a range of prices because all you really need is an electric motor and a long flexible cable with a sort of claw on the end. Heck, you can even rent these yourself.
Note, it's more expensive to have an actual plumber do this as they will charge you the same hourly rate, while most of these specialty guys will do it flat rate -- around here about $100. They'll also offer you a type of guarantee in that if they have to come back in X months it's half price or some such, BUT they will cancel your discount if they encounter things that should not be down pipes like diapers, wet wipes, and so forth.
Bottom line, your landlord should try this before bringing in a plumber, and it's not even that expensive, and it's something he should be doing anyway, AND it's a write-off. Shouldn't be on you.
Find out whether in PA leases with illegal clauses are voided. It's the case where I am. I don't think that legally you can be made to be on the hook for this unless you were actually negligent. So make sure you know your rights and get some local advice if he gives you more grief on this.
posted by dhartung at 7:10 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
If the washer and dryers stop working, who pays for the replacement?
If the hotwater heater stops working, who pays for the replacement?
If a tree falls through a wall, who pays for the replacement?
My point here is that I think that your septic tank has collapsed in, cause the reverse water. If this is the case, it will be something like $6000.00.
But there is the likely hood that you are are on city water, and if that's the case, to dig up and replace that pipe could only run something like $3000.00.
I wouldn't front any money. Pay for any cost of repair. And I'd stop paying rent until it was fixed. But that's just me. IANAL or IANY.
posted by QueerAngel28 at 8:53 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
If the hotwater heater stops working, who pays for the replacement?
If a tree falls through a wall, who pays for the replacement?
My point here is that I think that your septic tank has collapsed in, cause the reverse water. If this is the case, it will be something like $6000.00.
But there is the likely hood that you are are on city water, and if that's the case, to dig up and replace that pipe could only run something like $3000.00.
I wouldn't front any money. Pay for any cost of repair. And I'd stop paying rent until it was fixed. But that's just me. IANAL or IANY.
posted by QueerAngel28 at 8:53 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
No one has that much hair.
A hair clog can be cleared with a quick snake of the drain, if not putting one of these thingies down there.
This doesn't sound like a hair clog, it sounds like a four alarm, on-going, plumbing issue. Our waste pipe, from the house to the city sewer was made of clay, and as such, after about 45 years, it collapsed. I, as the homeowner had to replace it. Cost, $7,000. yay.
The symptoms of the problem were back ups into the basement.
You aren't on the hook for repairs to the house. Agree to nothing.
Send your landlord a copy of the statute regarding the fact that he is to pay and explain that this was NOT caused by you or your roommates.
If you really want to make it stick, have a plumber come and put a camera down the pipes, and get her professional opinion about what's causing the back ups. I'll wager that it's a messed up waste pipe, and that's ALL on the landlord.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:48 AM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
A hair clog can be cleared with a quick snake of the drain, if not putting one of these thingies down there.
This doesn't sound like a hair clog, it sounds like a four alarm, on-going, plumbing issue. Our waste pipe, from the house to the city sewer was made of clay, and as such, after about 45 years, it collapsed. I, as the homeowner had to replace it. Cost, $7,000. yay.
The symptoms of the problem were back ups into the basement.
You aren't on the hook for repairs to the house. Agree to nothing.
Send your landlord a copy of the statute regarding the fact that he is to pay and explain that this was NOT caused by you or your roommates.
If you really want to make it stick, have a plumber come and put a camera down the pipes, and get her professional opinion about what's causing the back ups. I'll wager that it's a messed up waste pipe, and that's ALL on the landlord.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:48 AM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
If your landlord owns many other properties, it sounds like they are being particularly sleazy, and I would recommend the stronger measures suggested above, on behalf of you, your roommates, and all of their future tenants, if you're in a position where you can deal with the siruation more aggressively.
But it sounds like it may be the case that you just have an inexperienced and kind of clueless landlord? In which case I would still recommend firmly standing up for your rights, including refusal to pay for the plumbing repairs, but taking a more educational approach or tone in your interactions with your landlord. I mean, while owning an income property is merely a business for a landlord, it's our home for those of us who rent, so clueless and incompetent landlords are still being unethical human beings, but are much more likely redeemable than a slumlord who is intentionally trying to shirk their responsibilities. So if it were me, I'd have a concerned phone call with the landlord presenting the info linked to above, maybe something along the lines of, "hey, I was reading up on this and the statute seems to take this problem a lot more seriously than either you or I had realized." But write down, for your own records, what was said during the phone call or all subsequent contact with your landlord. Most likely, once properly educated, they will step up and do the right thing, in the right time frame. Especially if you know your rights as a tenant and they know that you know your rights as a tenant.
But keep those records of phone calls, a timeline of the plumbing problems, when plumbers came and what they did, etc., because there is the possibility that your landlord will still try to bill you or not refund your full security deposit. This is not at all uncommon, so it's good to be prepared.
On the topic of more aggressive measures, rent withholding is legal in most states, but the way it works is it's a valid defense against eviction for nonpayment of rent, so can be a slight gamble in that if a landlord takes a tenant to small claims court over rent withholding, a judge decides kind of after the fact whether the rent withholding was valid or not. If the judge decides that the tenant has withheld too much rent, the tenant has a period of time to pay up and avoid an eviction notice (so the general recommendation is to put the rent money away in the bank just in case), and there's a lot of case law that gives guidelines about reasonable circumstances and amounts for rent withholding. So I think that dhartung has put it too strongly, but one should still be cautious about rent withholding. If you get to a stage where you want to consider that, checking with a local tenants' rights group or legal aid is a good idea. Also feel free to memail me - IANAL, but have a bit of experience in tenants' rights. Applying your security deposit as, eg., last month's rent is less legal, though perhaps more common. The thing about the law, which seems to particularly come out in landlord-tenant law (perhaps because of the more extreme power differential between a landlord, who only has a business interest at stake unless they're a small-time, renting out an apartment in the house they also live in type landlord; and a tenant, for whom the property in question is their home), is that on the one hand, there is the law, but on the other hand, there is what a particular party can get away with or what all parties are willing to settle for, based on other constraints on their time and finances, as well as their knowledge of the law. This more often works against tenants and in favor of landlords, due to the assymmetry noted above. But applying security deposit toward rent is one instance where, if they would have had to refund the security deposit in full anyway, it's generally not worth a landlord's time to take a tenant to small claims court over that, even though they technically could.
posted by eviemath at 6:52 AM on April 14, 2014
But it sounds like it may be the case that you just have an inexperienced and kind of clueless landlord? In which case I would still recommend firmly standing up for your rights, including refusal to pay for the plumbing repairs, but taking a more educational approach or tone in your interactions with your landlord. I mean, while owning an income property is merely a business for a landlord, it's our home for those of us who rent, so clueless and incompetent landlords are still being unethical human beings, but are much more likely redeemable than a slumlord who is intentionally trying to shirk their responsibilities. So if it were me, I'd have a concerned phone call with the landlord presenting the info linked to above, maybe something along the lines of, "hey, I was reading up on this and the statute seems to take this problem a lot more seriously than either you or I had realized." But write down, for your own records, what was said during the phone call or all subsequent contact with your landlord. Most likely, once properly educated, they will step up and do the right thing, in the right time frame. Especially if you know your rights as a tenant and they know that you know your rights as a tenant.
But keep those records of phone calls, a timeline of the plumbing problems, when plumbers came and what they did, etc., because there is the possibility that your landlord will still try to bill you or not refund your full security deposit. This is not at all uncommon, so it's good to be prepared.
On the topic of more aggressive measures, rent withholding is legal in most states, but the way it works is it's a valid defense against eviction for nonpayment of rent, so can be a slight gamble in that if a landlord takes a tenant to small claims court over rent withholding, a judge decides kind of after the fact whether the rent withholding was valid or not. If the judge decides that the tenant has withheld too much rent, the tenant has a period of time to pay up and avoid an eviction notice (so the general recommendation is to put the rent money away in the bank just in case), and there's a lot of case law that gives guidelines about reasonable circumstances and amounts for rent withholding. So I think that dhartung has put it too strongly, but one should still be cautious about rent withholding. If you get to a stage where you want to consider that, checking with a local tenants' rights group or legal aid is a good idea. Also feel free to memail me - IANAL, but have a bit of experience in tenants' rights. Applying your security deposit as, eg., last month's rent is less legal, though perhaps more common. The thing about the law, which seems to particularly come out in landlord-tenant law (perhaps because of the more extreme power differential between a landlord, who only has a business interest at stake unless they're a small-time, renting out an apartment in the house they also live in type landlord; and a tenant, for whom the property in question is their home), is that on the one hand, there is the law, but on the other hand, there is what a particular party can get away with or what all parties are willing to settle for, based on other constraints on their time and finances, as well as their knowledge of the law. This more often works against tenants and in favor of landlords, due to the assymmetry noted above. But applying security deposit toward rent is one instance where, if they would have had to refund the security deposit in full anyway, it's generally not worth a landlord's time to take a tenant to small claims court over that, even though they technically could.
posted by eviemath at 6:52 AM on April 14, 2014
Look, I'm a landlord and even I think it's on him. Don't pay anything.
posted by 8dot3 at 9:51 AM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by 8dot3 at 9:51 AM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
IANAL and TINLA. This is absolutely your landlord's responsibility. If you have renter's insurance, you could stay in a motel and claim it on your insurance under "loss of use" since the apartment is not in habitable condition. (They'd likely go after the landlord.)
(Personal anecdote: A fire sprinkler once burst and flooded the apartment next door to mine; the landlord shut off the water to the entire floor for repairs, and I got a hotel for the next few days. My renter's insurance company said yes, the hotel cost would definitely be covered under the "loss of use" clause, but was less than my deductible so if I claimed it not only would I not be paid any money but my premium would go up. YMMV.)
The law always trumps the lease; in fact, any lease I've had has always had some wording to that effect in it: "if any clause in this lease is against the law, the law will prevail." It's illegal to enforce an illegal contract, by definition. Your landlord can't ask you to pay for the plumber.
That said, don't withhold rent payment unless you've spoken to a lawyer who specializes in landlord/tenant law and s/he has instructed you to do so. Don't pay for the plumber. Let your landlord try to come after you for the money. Since you're moving out, he might try to withhold it from your security deposit; and you can go after him in Small Claims Court for that.
(Another personal anectode: I once had a landlord withhold returning my security deposit because I did a roommate swap -- allowed under my lease -- and the new roommate didn't pay his portion of rent. That's the new roommate's problem, not mine. I went into the landlord's office and showed a secretary my filled-out-but-not-yet-filed Small Claims Court paperwork. I had a check for my security deposit in my hand the next day.)
posted by tckma at 11:26 AM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
(Personal anecdote: A fire sprinkler once burst and flooded the apartment next door to mine; the landlord shut off the water to the entire floor for repairs, and I got a hotel for the next few days. My renter's insurance company said yes, the hotel cost would definitely be covered under the "loss of use" clause, but was less than my deductible so if I claimed it not only would I not be paid any money but my premium would go up. YMMV.)
The law always trumps the lease; in fact, any lease I've had has always had some wording to that effect in it: "if any clause in this lease is against the law, the law will prevail." It's illegal to enforce an illegal contract, by definition. Your landlord can't ask you to pay for the plumber.
That said, don't withhold rent payment unless you've spoken to a lawyer who specializes in landlord/tenant law and s/he has instructed you to do so. Don't pay for the plumber. Let your landlord try to come after you for the money. Since you're moving out, he might try to withhold it from your security deposit; and you can go after him in Small Claims Court for that.
(Another personal anectode: I once had a landlord withhold returning my security deposit because I did a roommate swap -- allowed under my lease -- and the new roommate didn't pay his portion of rent. That's the new roommate's problem, not mine. I went into the landlord's office and showed a secretary my filled-out-but-not-yet-filed Small Claims Court paperwork. I had a check for my security deposit in my hand the next day.)
posted by tckma at 11:26 AM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Big ole' NOPE on this one. LAndlord pays for 100% of plumbing repairs.
posted by WeekendJen at 11:44 AM on April 14, 2014
posted by WeekendJen at 11:44 AM on April 14, 2014
I just want to reiterate that you should not stop paying rent or withhold any rent until you check out the rental laws in your area. Some places let tenants withhold rent until repairs are completed, but most of them require you to go through official channels and pay the money to a court instead of the landlord. Follow the law here, even if your landlord isn't.
posted by soelo at 12:30 PM on April 14, 2014
posted by soelo at 12:30 PM on April 14, 2014
Landlord here also. Tenants don't pay to fix the plumbing, even when they think its some kind of magic hole that makes everything disappear. I also vote for inexperienced landlord who is not aware of the law. A courteous conversation would probably do the trick. Or even a letter, if you don't feel comfortable doing that.
And btw, my husband and I live in an old house. He's basically bald and I don't shed. Our bathroom sink and tub clogs up and has to be snaked out once a year or so. It's just part of the regular maintenance that any house requires.
posted by raisingsand at 1:23 PM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
And btw, my husband and I live in an old house. He's basically bald and I don't shed. Our bathroom sink and tub clogs up and has to be snaked out once a year or so. It's just part of the regular maintenance that any house requires.
posted by raisingsand at 1:23 PM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Update: Today I emailed the landlord stating my roommates and I would not share the costs. I also linked to an explanation of PA's "warranty of inhabitability" law, and a legal blog post explaining that repairs count as tax deductions. Landlord sees the email and replies to it, saying plumber has cut open the pipe and found hairs and tampons clogging it up (I don't know if my female roommates or the house's past inhabitants are responsible for this, but the tampon thing is not on me), which would indicate that we did indeed cause the damage, so we would be held responsible.
Luckily, however, the plumber he uses prices competitively, so we later get a second email from the landlord saying that since the cost was so low ($850--I made sure to ask the plumber when he was finishing up the work), we did not have to pay.
If it happens again, he says it is on us. I only have a couple more weeks here so his saying this is neither here nor there for me. But lesson learned: Know your tenant laws. Thanks everyone.
posted by dean_deen at 4:21 PM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Luckily, however, the plumber he uses prices competitively, so we later get a second email from the landlord saying that since the cost was so low ($850--I made sure to ask the plumber when he was finishing up the work), we did not have to pay.
If it happens again, he says it is on us. I only have a couple more weeks here so his saying this is neither here nor there for me. But lesson learned: Know your tenant laws. Thanks everyone.
posted by dean_deen at 4:21 PM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
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posted by Dynex at 3:09 PM on April 13, 2014 [9 favorites]